The Key to understanding socialism

[RoryN]

 

[AlexBailey]

No. Social Democracy <> Socialism.

This is true - while Social Democracies use socialist policies, they are not models of actual socialism.

The question in this thread is about why socialism could seem like a good idea.

My theory is that pure market capitalism fails so abjectly that it is not practiced anywhere. The nature of society include shifts in ideology based on public sentiment, so anytime something becomes extreme and becomes untenable elements of different ideologies are adopted for the benefit of society.

Can anyone fully claim that free market capitalism solves all problems?

Socialism has many beneficial attributes but just like any other economic model it needs other influence to balance it.

 

[AlexBailey]

Countries that operate under pure capitalism, meaning they have minimal or no socialist policies (such as public welfare programs, universal healthcare, state-funded education, or income redistribution) are relatively rare in the modern world. Most countries incorporate some elements of social welfare or socialism within their capitalist framework. However, there are a few countries where capitalist principles dominate with relatively limited social welfare. Such as these:

1 Qatar

2. Hong Kong (Before 2020)

3. Singapore

4. United Arab Emirates (UAE)

5. Chile (Post-1970s Economic Reforms)

6. Costa Rica

7. Brunei

Aw, I’m feeling proud of your progress. It’s a big step for you to acknowledge:

“Most countries incorporate some elements of social welfare or socialism within their capitalist framework”

It’s almost like you’re thinking rather than just shilling.

 

[UltraChad]

Each are both economic and political.

Only in that politics is partially about control of the economics. Otherwise no. Socialism has fuck all to do with politics. It's not even inherently left or right wing.

Communism is an extension of socialism.

If by extension you mean the far, maximum or ultimate end state of socialist economics + lefty social politics taken to the fullest ideological extent.....then I would agree. But it goes so much further than the economics side which is all socialism really covers.

Hell socialism is arguably not even left wing depending on how you define the left.

 

[UltraChad]

Can anyone fully claim that free market capitalism solves all problems?

Did anyone ever claim that it did or that it was ever the point??

Capitalism is about not having your labor/property taken from you by force. Voluntary exchange of private property/labor.

It gives no fucks about solving problems, providing equity and ensuring warm n' fuzzy fee fees. Never was meant to and if you thought it was then you misunderstood the assignment boo boo.

 

[ll74]

Only in that politics is partially about control of the economics. Otherwise no. Socialism has fuck all to do with politics.

Socialism is both political and economical.

If by extension you mean the far, maximum or ultimate end state of socialist economics + lefty social politics taken to the fullest ideological extent.....then I would agree. But it goes so much further than the economics side which is all socialism really covers.

Communism is an extension of socialism.
By that I mean, it is fully socialistic but goes beyond socialism.

Hell socialism is arguably not even left wing depending on how you define the left.

Thinking of many things in terms of left or right is problematic.

But I'm not going to argue the spectrum again with you.

 

[CambridgeBi]

This is true - while Social Democracies use socialist policies, they are not models of actual socialism.

The question in this thread is about why socialism could seem like a good idea.

My theory is that pure market capitalism fails so abjectly that it is not practiced anywhere. The nature of society include shifts in ideology based on public sentiment, so anytime something becomes extreme and becomes untenable elements of different ideologies are adopted for the benefit of society.

Can anyone fully claim that free market capitalism solves all problems?

Socialism has many beneficial attributes but just like any other economic model it needs other influence to balance it.

I'm old enough to remember the Berlin wall. On one side you had Socialism which delivered bread queues and Trabants, on the other side you had a Social Democracy which delivered BMW, Mercedes Benz, Audi, VW and more food than you could shake a stick at.

Socialism failed so abjectly everyone in Eastern Europe is glad to have escaped it. Social Democracies can work ( somewhat ) because capitalism pays the bills.

In the UK we're getting out of balance, the public sector has got so bloated, inefficient and has such low productivity that the private sector is struggling to pay for it, we have sky high taxation and are in danger of an economic meltdown.

Those who can afford it have private healthcare and private education for their kids as the state offering is really poor despite being so expensive.

 

[AlexBailey]

Did anyone ever claim that it did or that it was ever the point??

Capitalism is about not having your labor/property taken from you by force. Voluntary exchange of private property/labor.

It gives no fucks about solving problems, providing equity and ensuring warm n' fuzzy fee fees. Never was meant to and if you thought it was then you misunderstood the assignment boo boo.

Great. You rightly want to keep your stuff. Most people will be sympathetic.

Your hand tipped at the word ‘force’. You don’t wanna pay unto Caesar.

 

[dawnonyou]

It's a herb

Many herbs contain chemicals that are also drugs.

 

[dawnonyou]

It helps him to see Nirvana where it doesn't exist.

And the left is trained to side step logical reality and shout or name call. In a fair adult debate they know they would fall apart due to the absolute lack of logic in their desires.

 

[Rightguide]

Hey Roary, when break’s over, Mr Johnson down in B4 on the dementia unit needs his toenails clipped.

 

[Rightguide]

Aw, I’m feeling proud of your progress. It’s a big step for you to acknowledge:

“Most countries incorporate some elements of social welfare or socialism within their capitalist framework”

It’s almost like you’re thinking rather than just shilling.

Technically speaking, but otherwise people are free in those countries to earn without limit and progress accordingly.

 

[UltraChad]

Socialism is both political and economical.

Only in that politics are used to control economics.

Beyond the guns that force it there is nothing political about socialism.

Communism is an extension of socialism.
By that I mean, it is fully socialistic

Right as in all the other leftist garbage that isn't the economics, which socialism covers.

but goes beyond socialism.

Yea, because it's political, socialism is economic.

Thinking of many things in terms of left or right is problematic.

But I'm not going to argue the spectrum again with you.

Yea "EVERYTHING is a shade of grey" until it's not and inconvenient eh....LOL

 

[ll74]

Only in that politics are used to control economics.

It is both. Sometimes it can be referring to one or the other.

Beyond the guns that force it there is nothing political about socialism.

Incorrect.

Ok, the end stage socialism.

There are other forms of socialism.

Yea, because it's political, socialism is economic.

Both are both.

Yea "EVERYTHING is a shade of grey" until it's not and inconvenient eh....LOL

You have issues with things that can be both in your brain, definitely.

 

[UltraChad]

Great. You rightly want to keep your stuff. Most people will be sympathetic.

Yea. Liberalism is popular like that.

Your hand tipped at the word ‘force’.

How??

You don’t wanna pay unto Caesar.

No shit....why should Caesar get to own my property and labor and charge me rent for it?? It's mine.

 

[UltraChad]

Many herbs contain chemicals that are also drugs.

Coffee for example......bunch of fuckin' junkies.

 

[CambridgeBi]

Coincidentally I was listening to an interview with a member of the Communist Party of Britain (yes, we have one) on the radio yesterday and they see Socialism as a transitory state between Capitalism and Communism, i.e. if they had power UK would first become a Socialist country as a first step towards becoming Communist.

 

[AlexBailey]

Yea. Liberalism is popular like that.


How??


No shit....why should Caesar get to own my property and labor and charge me rent for it?? It's mine.

Are you a sovereign citizen?

 

[Philthy_Phil]

I have often wondered why anyone would be drawn to an economic system that could never work in real life. I have known people that seem smart in some ways but so dumb when it comes to how the economy works. I have wondered, "How can anyone think this is a good idea?" But recently I noticed that most of the people that are sucked into the idea are into smoking pot or other drugs. I think there is something about pot that alters the human brain enough to make socialism seem like a good idea. What do you think?

No need to mansplain to us, dude.

 

[UltraChad]

It is both. Sometimes it can be referring to one or the other.

By people who don't know what the fuckin' word means maybe.

Incorrect.

What is a socialist political structure/system then?

The word is defined as an economic system.

There are other forms of socialism.

And are any of them not pursuing equity of some kind?

Right....

Both are both.
You have issues with things that can be both in your brain, definitely.

No they aren't.

I have issues with bullshit that makes no sense and nobody can explain for shit....I'm just not collectivistic enough to just blindly accept dumb shit because comrades said so.

 

[UltraChad]

Are you a sovereign citizen?

No. Are you able to answer the question??

 

[UltraChad]

Coincidentally I was listening to an interview with a member of the Communist Party of Britain (yes, we have one) on the radio yesterday and they see Socialism as a transitory state between Capitalism and Communism, i.e. if they had power UK would first become a Socialist country as a first step towards becoming Communist.

Yes....socialism is the economic tool to bring about the communist political state.

 

[ll74]

By people who don't know what the fuckin' word means maybe.

You not understanding that it is both isn't my issue.

What is a socialist political structure/system then?

It is system where government owns the means of production.

Whereas a communist system is one where all property is owned by the government

The word is defined as an economic system.

To you, yes. You've mentioned that.
It's a political and economic system

And are any of them not pursuing equity of some kind?

Right....


No they aren't.

I have issues with bullshit that makes no sense and nobody can explain for shit....I'm just not collectivistic enough.

You can have issues with whatever you want. Maybe take a class for some help

 

[AlexBailey]

Technically speaking, but otherwise people are free in those countries to earn without limit and progress accordingly.

Interesting concept.

The world now has nearly three thousand billionaires and growing, much of this is the result of debt spending to encourage economic growth and stability. Where is that $30 trillion that was brought into existence by borrowing and increasing the national debt?

Any thoughts?

 

[HumpDayHoratio]

Your myopic question deserves an AI response:

AI: Many first-world countries adopt socialist-inspired policies to improve the well-being of their citizens, typically by combining elements of free-market capitalism with robust social safety nets. These policies aim to address income inequality, ensure access to essential services, and promote social welfare. Below are some examples:


1. Nordic Countries (Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland)

• Universal Healthcare: These nations provide free or low-cost healthcare to all citizens.

• Education: Public education, including university, is often free or heavily subsidized.

• Parental Leave: Generous maternity, paternity, and parental leave policies.

• Social Welfare Programs: Comprehensive unemployment benefits, pensions, and housing assistance.

• High Taxation: To fund these programs, they have progressive tax systems, with high-income earners paying significantly more.



2. Germany

• Universal Healthcare: Everyone is required to have health insurance, either through public or private options.

• Free Higher Education: Most universities are tuition-free for both citizens and international students.

• Strong Labor Protections: Workers benefit from robust unions, job security laws, and mandatory paid vacation.

• Generous Parental Leave: Parents can share up to 14 months of paid leave.


3. Canada

• Healthcare: Universal healthcare is provided through a publicly funded system.

• Social Programs: Canada offers generous unemployment benefits, housing assistance, and a Child Benefit program to support families.

• Education Support: Public education is free, and there is significant federal and provincial support for post-secondary students.


4. New Zealand

• Healthcare: Subsidized healthcare is available to all citizens and permanent residents.

• Social Security: Comprehensive welfare benefits, including unemployment, disability support, and pensions.

• Housing Programs: The government invests in affordable housing to address homelessness and housing shortages.


5. France

• Healthcare: Universal healthcare system largely funded through taxes.

• Education: Free public education, with higher education costs among the lowest in Europe.

• Labor Rights: Strong labor laws ensure protections such as a 35-hour workweek, paid vacation, and unemployment benefits.

• Family Benefits: Generous child allowances and parental leave policies.



6. Australia

• Medicare: Provides free or subsidized healthcare services to citizens.

• Social Welfare: Includes unemployment benefits, aged pensions, and family tax benefits.

• Education: Public schools are free, and higher education is subsidized through government loans.


7. The Netherlands

• Healthcare: Universal healthcare with mandatory insurance, heavily subsidized by the government.

• Social Housing: Extensive social housing programs ensure affordable living for low-income families.

• Parental Leave: Generous parental leave policies, including paid maternity and paternity leave.

• Education: Free public education and affordable higher education.



Key Features Across These Countries

1. Universal Healthcare ensures access to medical care regardless of income.

2. Education Accessibility reduces economic barriers to schooling.

3. Social Welfare Programs provide a safety net for unemployment, housing, and disability.

4. Progressive Taxation funds these services by redistributing wealth.

5. Worker Protections include strong labor laws, living wages, and union support.


These policies are not strictly “socialist” in the sense of replacing capitalism but rather reflect social democratic principles. They illustrate how combining a market-based economy with social programs can improve quality of life and reduce inequality.

Those are some good talking points to bolster your point. They look great on paper, but now tell us. How do those countries afford that? Do you think it will work in the US?

One more thing needs to be added. I noticed you left it out. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on why you did…

Key Features Across These Countries

1. Universal Healthcare ensures access to medical care regardless of income.

2. Education Accessibility reduces economic barriers to schooling.

3. Social Welfare Programs provide a safety net for unemployment, housing, and disability.

4. Progressive Taxation funds these services by redistributing wealth.

5. Worker Protections include strong labor laws, living wages, and union support.

6. MANDATORY military service. Every country you listed had it after WWII. Some have done away with it. Again, ask yourself why?