The lowest of the low

[annaswirls]

Ok I see where your coming from but how do you determine excatly what blind praise is?

I've been here for 2 years and i've come to the conclusion that alot of writers do just post for fun and to share their work, if they wanted to improve or seek advice they would ask for it, either by adding a note to their submission or by using the forums.

Does telling a writer you like his/her work count as blind praise? and what if you like it and give your reasons why but another disagrees, does that make it blind praise?

If all a writer wants is a 'did you like it?' comment and you do, is that blind praise?
I think that if a writer really wants to improve then they will make that point known, in which case 'blind praise' wont mean anything to them, but if they don't then what's the harm?

Where does blind Praise start and end?

**Pre note, I am NOT referring to anyone in particular in this post. When I say YOU I mean a generic You, meaning ME too**


I assume that people who post their poems here DO want criticism/critique, you should not have to ask for it. On the contrary, if you do NOT want criticism you should leave a note on the bottom of your poem or turn off public comments and ask your friends to tell you if they like your poem. That is support, not criticism.


And I think I might be the one person (besides the people who are accused of being "trolls" ) who does NOT believe that all anon commenters are some evil beast, nor do I think that people who give a vote lower than 4 are some sort of spiteful horrid creature.

I have given 3's to H poems, even E poems. Why? Because I did not think they were that good.

I do NOT like giving people a name "Troll" which is dehumanizing and comes with a stereotype that crushes all individuality. Sure, if they remain anon, then you are pretty much left with nothing but a stereotype, but what good does it do to group everyone together and throw them under the bridge.

As I have said before, I have gotten anon. comments on poems that stung at first, and were hard to believe, but after time went by, I could look more critically at my own work, and LAUGH at the comment and say OH MY GOD THEY WERE RIGHT!!!!!


When you get an H or get on the Top List or get an E, whatever little trinket lit gives, you are held to a higher standard! People rate you on a scale along with the best writers in here.

Many times only FRIENDS will read and vote on the poem when it comes out, giving an inflated high score. When it gets a medal of honor, then other poets, readers, writers, people who do not know you at all will read the poem, and they might say

well damn, this is not that great, I have read much better poems that do not have any such award.

And they comment and or vote as a person who does not have a personal interest in patting your back. They tend to be more impersonal, perhaps cold or aloof, like the REAL WORLD of writing.

I think it is great that we have a support system here. I think that praise can do with it does, help us feel good enough to keep on writing. But but BUT, it should not create an inflated self opinion that does not allow for anything but more positives. That is what Patrick was referring to.

I have been through this. I know that I got too big for my britches when I first got here. I need and appreciate praise! Even if just "Wow I like your poem." but I am not pretentious enough to think that it is beyond getting voted low or having anon comments telling me to stick it in my ear.

It is a rare case (of course it happens!) that someone single out a writer and torment them. It happens to everyone.

Okay I gotta go send my poems out to strangers who will smash my poems to powder and send me a REJECTED letter signed anon. EDITOR.




and I will not bother saying
But but but Mister Editor, my friends really liked it!!!


~J

 

[BooMerengue]

Pat? Are you talking to me here? It's ok if you are. I agree in part... I'm a woman, after all! LOL

comments of blanket praise outnumber troll comments 100 to 1, and that includes here on the threads. that is the case for many reasons, too many to get into.

I agree 100%

and saying “i’m not competent enough to give constructive criticism” doesn’t hold water. can a person be ‘not competent’ enough to give criticism, yet competent enough to give praise?

It does hold water. I am NOT competent enough to critique a poem. I am competent enough to say I like it or dislike it. I can point out some flaws. The other night I read a poem by Remec. It was really good, but his rhyme scheme was off a bit. I'm sure theres a word for it but I don't know what it is. So I just told him in lay terms. But I can't comment on say alliteration, or name a form, or talk about ... hell, I can't even think of the terms. I just know how a poem makes me feel, and if I can I voice that, whether it's good or bad. Or sometimes I just vote and don't say anything. But if I read it I vote.

personally, trolls make me snicker. blanket praise is what boils my blood.

It doesn't boil my blood cuz I know it's well meant. But it is useless. It teaches nothing. I'd prefer to have no comments at all.



I see your and I raise you!

 

[Jennifer C]

Pat? Are you talking to me here? It's ok if you are. I agree in part... I'm a woman, after all! LOL

comments of blanket praise outnumber troll comments 100 to 1, and that includes here on the threads. that is the case for many reasons, too many to get into.

I agree 100%

and saying “i’m not competent enough to give constructive criticism” doesn’t hold water. can a person be ‘not competent’ enough to give criticism, yet competent enough to give praise?

It does hold water. I am NOT competent enough to critique a poem. I am competent enough to say I like it or dislike it. I can point out some flaws. The other night I read a poem by Remec. It was really good, but his rhyme scheme was off a bit. I'm sure theres a word for it but I don't know what it is. So I just told him in lay terms. But I can't comment on say alliteration, or name a form, or talk about ... hell, I can't even think of the terms. I just know how a poem makes me feel, and if I can I voice that, whether it's good or bad. Or sometimes I just vote and don't say anything. But if I read it I vote.

personally, trolls make me snicker. blanket praise is what boils my blood.

It doesn't boil my blood cuz I know it's well meant. But it is useless. It teaches nothing. I'd prefer to have no comments at all.



I see your and I raise you!

I agree with you on the not competent to critique a poem but competent to praise it. And yes it maybe useless in some sense but it's not bad and I really don't think it does that much harm.

IMHO

 

[BooMerengue]

**Pre note, I am NOT referring to anyone in particular in this post. When I say YOU I mean a generic You, meaning ME too**


I assume that people who post their poems here DO want criticism/critique, you should not have to ask for it. On the contrary, if you do NOT want criticism you should leave a note on the bottom of your poem or turn off public comments and ask your friends to tell you if they like your poem. That is support, not criticism.


And I think I might be the one person (besides the people who are accused of being "trolls" ) who does NOT believe that all anon commenters are some evil beast, nor do I think that people who give a vote lower than 4 are some sort of spiteful horrid creature.

I have given 3's to H poems, even E poems. Why? Because I did not think they were that good.

I do NOT like giving people a name "Troll" which is dehumanizing and comes with a stereotype that crushes all individuality. Sure, if they remain anon, then you are pretty much left with nothing but a stereotype, but what good does it do to group everyone together and throw them under the bridge.

As I have said before, I have gotten anon. comments on poems that stung at first, and were hard to believe, but after time went by, I could look more critically at my own work, and LAUGH at the comment and say OH MY GOD THEY WERE RIGHT!!!!!


When you get an H or get on the Top List or get an E, whatever little trinket lit gives, you are held to a higher standard! People rate you on a scale along with the best writers in here.

Many times only FRIENDS will read and vote on the poem when it comes out, giving an inflated high score. When it gets a medal of honor, then other poets, readers, writers, people who do not know you at all will read the poem, and they might say



And they comment and or vote as a person who does not have a personal interest in patting your back. They tend to be more impersonal, perhaps cold or aloof, like the REAL WORLD of writing.

I think it is great that we have a support system here. I think that praise can do with it does, help us feel good enough to keep on writing. But but BUT, it should not create an inflated self opinion that does not allow for anything but more positives. That is what Patrick was referring to.

I have been through this. I know that I got too big for my britches when I first got here. I need and appreciate praise! Even if just "Wow I like your poem." but I am not pretentious enough to think that it is beyond getting voted low or having anon comments telling me to stick it in my ear.

It is a rare case (of course it happens!) that someone single out a writer and torment them. It happens to everyone.

Okay I gotta go send my poems out to strangers who will smash my poems to powder and send me a REJECTED letter signed anon. EDITOR.




and I will not bother saying
But but but Mister Editor, my friends really liked it!!!


~J

I've been trying to say the same thing, Anna, but you're better with words. There was a perfect example here on the threads about 4 months ago. A lady was incensed that someone had voted less than a 5 cuz it spoiled her score. I had given her a 4, cuz it just wasn't a great poem, but I didn't know she was upset til after I had read the New Poems. She had nearly 15 5's and my 4 and she was mad? How silly...

There is enough person here who once got an E. When the commentors saw that, they gave him 5's, many of them saying (paraphrasing) "Gee! I don't know what this is, but it's so complicated it must be a 5!" That is so demeaning to themselves and the writer. I was unsure so I went to the AH and gathered a dozen of my writer friends to go read. They ALL agreed- the poem was shit, and the comments were kowtowing.

I think I counted 34 poems I voted on last night. 2 were 5's; 3 were 3's, and the rest were 4's. I don't find that unusual at all.

I have about 60 out of 101 poems that are 4's and up. I don't consider that bad at all for a beginning poet. But I will agree w/ Pat. I have maybe 4 H's for what could be considered good poems. I have about 24 red H's cuz of my friends.

I do think, though, that removing the voting altogether (except for contests and challenges etc) and the anon voting, would be a good thing. The comments would then become more important for giver and receiver, and the learning process would blossom even more. IMHO

 

[PatCarrington]

Pat? Are you talking to me here? It's ok if you are. I agree in part... I'm a woman, after all! LOL

comments of blanket praise outnumber troll comments 100 to 1, and that includes here on the threads. that is the case for many reasons, too many to get into.

I agree 100%

and saying “i’m not competent enough to give constructive criticism” doesn’t hold water. can a person be ‘not competent’ enough to give criticism, yet competent enough to give praise?

It does hold water. I am NOT competent enough to critique a poem. I am competent enough to say I like it or dislike it. I can point out some flaws. The other night I read a poem by Remec. It was really good, but his rhyme scheme was off a bit. I'm sure theres a word for it but I don't know what it is. So I just told him in lay terms. But I can't comment on say alliteration, or name a form, or talk about ... hell, I can't even think of the terms. I just know how a poem makes me feel, and if I can I voice that, whether it's good or bad. Or sometimes I just vote and don't say anything. But if I read it I vote.

personally, trolls make me snicker. blanket praise is what boils my blood.

It doesn't boil my blood cuz I know it's well meant. But it is useless. It teaches nothing. I'd prefer to have no comments at all.



I see your and I raise you!

no, Boo, i was not referring to you specifically, or anyone else.

all my comments were general ones.

and i've seen enough of your writing and opinions to be able to come to the conclusion that you don't give yourself enough credit. you ARE competent enough to give worthwhile critique.

blind praise is as useless as "this poem sucks," in my opinion. and it's worse, because there is a chance it will be believed, while there is no chance the statement "this poem sucks" will be taken seriously, even if it's true.


three of a kind

 

[Jennifer C]

no, Boo, i was not referring to you specifically, or anyone else.

all my comments were general ones.

and i've seen enough of your writing and opinions to be able to come to the conclusion that you don't give yourself enough credit. you ARE competent enough to give worthwhile critique.

blind praise is as useless as "this poem sucks," in my opinion. and it's worse, because there is a chance it will be believed, while there is no chance the statement "this poem sucks" will be taken seriously, even if it's true.


three of a kind

I do get where your coming from Pat, and i do agree with you up to a point, if you like a poem you should say why the sames goes for if you don't like it, but I still don't think it does that much harm if you don't. that's just my opinion, we can't all agree with everything

 

[BooMerengue]

no, Boo, i was not referring to you specifically, or anyone else.

all my comments were general ones.

and i've seen enough of your writing and opinions to be able to come to the conclusion that you don't give yourself enough credit. you ARE competent enough to give worthwhile critique. <<----- Aha! Blind praise!! Your busted!!
blind praise is as useless as "this poem sucks," in my opinion. and it's worse, because there is a chance it will be believed, while there is no chance the statement "this poem sucks" will be taken seriously, even if it's true.


three of a kind

Royal Blush I win!!

 

[Wanton Vixxxen]

"PERCEPTION IS REALITY"

That was what I learned in a seminar years ago and it has stuck with Me ever since. At the time, it was applied as the basic philosophy that an interior designer used - the idea that between the designer's creativity and the client's budget, you made their dream come true; regardless of what you, as the designer with all your expertise, thought about the project's theme. Because it is the clients who have to live with their choices; not the designer, it is their perception of the outcome of the project that is reality. Now, what the hell does that have to do with Lit? {I knew you were going to ask Me lol}. Whether we are discussing the differing opinions about comments or anonymous troll voting, or values of icons or anything else; with all of the pros and cons stated here thus far about any and all of these various topics, our beliefs all have one thing in common: our perception for each subject, to each of us, is our reality.
Wanton Vixxxen finds giving a comment {particularly on a poem} difficult to do -as a critique, that is - because I, like Boo and Jenn, base My remarks upon the feelings the piece evokes from Me. I read the poetry for the pure enjoyment of it and feel if I had the knowledge to pick apart a poem and find its flaws, I would miss out on the pleasure derived from just simply reading it through. I may be perceived to write blind praise comments, but the reality to Me is I am expressing My reactions [feelings} about the piece and wish to thank the poet for giving Me that pleasure. Sure, I try most of the time to be cute and clever {when the theme of the poem appropriately warrants it}, but what is the harm in perhaps putting a smile on the face of the poet in point? I know I try harder to improve when I am thoughtfully complimented; not sickenly sweet gushed over - and I think all of us here know the difference between an honest compliment and one that is saccharin - but that of one trying to encourage the best out of a person. Let the others more qualified and who know the nuances of poetry form give their critiques. Most that do, I have to say, give them with the author's feelings in mind and tactfully, but succinctly, break down the poem and help the author see where there's room for improvement on that and future works. That to Me is a valid and helpful critique. And no, I haven't mentioned the accompanied vote on it as that is another perception is reality topic that I will comment on in My next reply.
My second cup of coffee is awaiting me downstairs - along with the laundry that needs to be done. <work, work work> lol

Laura

 

[Jennifer C]

That was what I learned in a seminar years ago and it has stuck with Me ever since. At the time, it was applied as the basic philosophy that an interior designer used - the idea that between the designer's creativity and the client's budget, you made their dream come true; regardless of what you, as the designer with all your expertise, thought about the project's theme. Because it is the clients who have to live with their choices; not the designer, it is their perception of the outcome of the project that is reality. Now, what the hell does that have to do with Lit? {I knew you were going to ask Me lol}. Whether we are discussing the differing opinions about comments or anonymous troll voting, or values of icons or anything else; with all of the pros and cons stated here thus far about any and all of these various topics, our beliefs all have one thing in common: our perception for each subject, to each of us, is our reality.
Wanton Vixxxen finds giving a comment {particularly on a poem} difficult to do -as a critique, that is - because I, like Boo and Jenn, base My remarks upon the feelings the piece evokes from Me. I read the poetry for the pure enjoyment of it and feel if I had the knowledge to pick apart a poem and find its flaws, I would miss out on the pleasure derived from just simply reading it through. I may be perceived to write blind praise comments, but the reality to Me is I am expressing My reactions [feelings} about the piece and wish to thank the poet for giving Me that pleasure. Sure, I try most of the time to be cute and clever {when the theme of the poem appropriately warrants it}, but what is the harm in perhaps putting a smile on the face of the poet in point? I know I try harder to improve when I am thoughtfully complimented; not sickenly sweet gushed over - and I think all of us here know the difference between an honest compliment and one that is saccharin - but that of one trying to encourage the best out of a person. Let the others more qualified and who know the nuances of poetry form give their critiques. Most that do, I have to say, give them with the author's feelings in mind and tactfully, but succinctly, break down the poem and help the author see where there's room for improvement on that and future works. That to Me is a valid and helpful critique. And no, I haven't mentioned the accompanied vote on it as that is another perception is reality topic that I will comment on in My next reply.
My second cup of coffee is awaiting me downstairs - along with the laundry that needs to be done. <work, work work> lol

Laura

Hey Laura, where ya been? haven't seen you in ages my friend! All I can say is that I agree with you 100 % and glad someone else agrees with me! lol it's nice to have you back on my wave length again, you've been missed!

Now never go away again! lol

 

[annaswirls]

Wanton Vixxxen, your comments have always been welcomed by me, and you always have something specific and thoughtful to say about my poetry, and I appreciate it greatly.

I do understand what you say about not wanting to notice shortcomings, and just enjoy the poem.

When I go through and try to comment on everything, I find it to be difficult to write a critique right thereon the public comments. When the poem is okay, I try to find a specific thing about it-- whether it be the repeating sounds, or a single line I found to be powerful... that does two things, gives that feel good feeling that we all need and shows the writer what I think they should keep doing.

I have found this kind of comment to be very helpful. When I go to edit a poem, I know, hey, think twice about changing that line-- it affected someone in a good way....

 

[Wanton Vixxxen]

To clarify My use of the term, "troll"...

I had to backtrack on the thread a bit to read the replies I apparently let slip by Me before. One that I wish to immediately address is that by annaswirl. By the way anna, thank you for thinking so highly of My comments regarding your work - I have meant every word <smile>. It was in reference to the label, "troll" and that she {anna} finds it dehumanizing and unfair to those that are lumped under the bridge in that group. I couldn't agree more.
Let me just say right now I don't think of anyone on this site - including My perception of a troll - to be inhuman. They may be a shallower and cruder form of a human as I judge them entirely from their actions, but nevertheless, still human. Furthermore, the ONLY people I regard as trolls are those that vote anonymously with sole intent to destroy another's honestly earned rating {and vote that way for no other reason} and one that comments {again, anonymously} by only attacking the author on a personal level and with not one word ever mentioning the poem or story. However, I do not refer to those that comment anonymously, but at least give an opinion on the work at hand, as trolls. We, as authors, are still given the option to delete the comment if it rubs us the wrong way or strikes a sensitive nerve. And a Wanton Vixxxen hint of the day: If you can get past your initial touchy reaction, you may decide to keep the critique after all; seeing it with a clearer perspective and the intentions of the commentator as truly being benign. I found that not jumping to hit the delete button on My bio page, but diverting Myself by going to look or do something else and coming back in a desensitized state helped immeasurably. And I kept the critiques; bar none. Although a handful of critics could afford to take a few lessons in people skills before writing their critiques, the vast majority here genuinely strive to give their help in a sincere non offensive way. I refer to a troll as "it" simply because I know not the gender {nor do I care WHO they are; just THAT they are} and like a cancer, they cause varying degrees of turmoil with no purpose but to destroy something otherwise healthy. I see nothing of positive value from them - NOTHING. I don't refer to cancer as a he or she either; just "it". Once again I will stress this is MY perception of a troll and hence, the reality of that situation to ME.
As far as the proposal to ban anonymous troll voting, it is SOLELY with that intention I am taking this cause up. I merely want to level the playing field. The troll would maintain their right to vote a one, but would have to identify his/herself. Of course, I realize there are other factors that need resolved, such as the alternate bio page{s} that they would seek as the loophole, but knowing how advanced and sophisticated Literotica's system is, I am sure a solution could be found. I am crusading for this change not as a power hungry revolutionist, but as a fellow Lit author that sees the troll situation as nothing but unnecessary anguish for many here. If it comes to be, the term "troll" will be non existent and the site {and all of its poets/ authors} will be the better for the change. If anyone has some ideas about possible solutions, please share them with Me and the others that wish to offer their support in remedying this problem. I am of pure heart when it comes to bringing a change so that integrity and honesty reigns our site. I hope you believe as I do that it can be done.

Laura

 

[twelveoone]

Wanton Vixxxen finds giving a comment {particularly on a poem} difficult to do -as a critique, that is - because I, like Boo and Jenn, base My remarks upon the feelings the piece evokes from Me. I read the poetry for the pure enjoyment of it and feel if I had the knowledge to pick apart a poem and find its flaws, I would miss out on the pleasure derived from just simply reading it through. I may be perceived to write blind praise comments, but the reality to Me is I am expressing My reactions [feelings} about the piece and wish to thank the poet for giving Me that pleasure. Sure, I try most of the time to be cute and clever {when the theme of the poem appropriately warrants it}, but what is the harm in perhaps putting a smile on the face of the poet in point? I know I try harder to improve when I am thoughtfully complimented; not sickenly sweet gushed over - and I think all of us here know the difference between an honest compliment and one that is saccharin - but that of one trying to encourage the best out of a person. Let the others more qualified and who know the nuances of poetry form give their critiques.

Laura

These are valid reactions, valid comments - we know who you are, where you are coming from, there is a form of consistency.

It does get to be a bit much if one sees 10 of them lined up in a row.

Speaking of consistency, contrast this with this:

There is enough person here who once got an E. When the commentors saw that, they gave him 5's, many of them saying (paraphrasing) "Gee! I don't know what this is, but it's so complicated it must be a 5!" That is so demeaning to themselves and the writer. I was unsure so I went to the AH and gathered a dozen of my writer friends to go read. They ALL agreed- the poem was shit, and the comments were kowtowing.

It does hold water. I am NOT competent enough to critique a poem. I am competent enough to say I like it or dislike it. I can point out some flaws. The other night I read a poem by Remec. It was really good, but his rhyme scheme was off a bit. I'm sure theres a word for it but I don't know what it is. So I just told him in lay terms. But I can't comment on say alliteration, or name a form, or talk about ... hell, I can't even think of the terms. I just know how a poem makes me feel, and if I can I voice that, whether it's good or bad. Or sometimes I just vote and don't say anything. But if I read it I vote.

Do I see a hint of INconsistency, here, in the arguement, in the intent?
Statement A:
This is shit, I'm not sure, others say it is shit, thereforth I must be right; form your own fucking opinion.
Statement B:
I am not competent (but I know example A was shit) Example B was good, but...and gives a valid reason.

We all have value systems, perceptions of what is shit, crap ; some of it is taste, but all of it is worse than useless, unless a reason is given.

Note also the "E" mentioned; to the best of my knowledge that also is one person's opinon.

I thought you were sitting this out Boo, waiting for it to crash and burn.

My take, say what you want, vote as you will, just do so with a fucking name attached. Let the rest sort out who the asshole is, the poet or the commentor.

Get rid of anon, it is a corruption of what could be a valuble feedback loop. Pat's point should be well taken also, an honest critic is your best friend.

Laura, I'm with you.
twelveoone, friendless but with his OWN FUCKING OPINION.

 

[BooMerengue]

edited out a double post.

 

[BooMerengue]

These are valid reactions, valid comments - we know who you are, where you are coming from, there is a form of consistency.

It does get to be a bit much if one sees 10 of them lined up in a row.

Speaking of consistency, contrast this with this:





Do I see a hint of INconsistency, here, in the arguement, in the intent?
Statement A:
This is shit, I'm not sure, others say it is shit, thereforth I must be right; form your own fucking opinion.
Statement B:
I am not competent (but I know example A was shit) Example B was good, but...and gives a valid reason.

We all have value systems, perceptions of what is shit, crap ; some of it is taste, but all of it is worse than useless, unless a reason is given.

Note also the "E" mentioned; to the best of my knowledge that also is one person's opinon.

I thought you were sitting this out Boo, waiting for it to crash and burn.

My take, say what you want, vote as you will, just do so with a fucking name attached. Let the rest sort out who the asshole is, the poet or the commentor.

Get rid of anon, it is a corruption of what could be a valuble feedback loop. Pat's point should be well taken also, an honest critic is your best friend.

Laura, I'm with you.
twelveoone, friendless but with his OWN FUCKING OPINION.

I didn't know what to make of a poem so I sought another opinion. Thats a bad thing? I was consistent. I'm not qualified to judge. Nothing wrong with seeking help. I did state somewhere that there are a few areas where I know if somethings not right, but not all areas. So where I saw what I felt was an error I pointed it out. I guess I should have known you'd be the one to take issue. It's nice to know that my every word is so awaited by someone, though. Makes me feel important. TY, 1201!

<insert sound of maniacal laughter>

 

[My Erotic Tale]

So we learn that there is no stock in the rating system,
and it won't change so the key to tranquility is exceptance
and the joy comes from writing and feedback. And there is not
true merit in the green "E". Rather Lit was available or not, I would write
so the fundamental basics of enjoyment, still prevail <grin>

 

[Du Lac]

H's E's and 5.0's

okay I think all need to think deep here... why do you write? do you write for the approval of others or is it something deep within you that just has to be done. If it is the first then this rating, H and E stuff will always motivate you .. making you either happy or sad. Yes it is nice to get H's and E's high ratings but that is not life on life's terms. There is always good and bad in living and in Lit. So with such a strong ego base to motivational writing how can you produce poetry that is from the greatest source of knowledge? Yourself!!!! If you are always writing for the approval of others then you are never writing what is you.

If you write for the second motivation, to release the depth of what needs to be said. You detach from the whole rating system. You see with others eyes. You want critics to speak from their experience. If a troll hits it no longer bothers you for you see that they are only reacting through their experience. Rather if they leave a comment maybe it is for you to see through their eyes and there is something to learn. Otherwise if the comment is just plain old mean, feel gratitude that this is not your experience. There are lessons in all things.

I found when I write for me to release what I need to teach or say I am not looking at ratings rather I am exploring the possiblities that others have so much to share with me. And then one day just when you do not expect it a poem or two that you love the most will suddenly be rewarded with a H. In the end did it matter H or not? To me no for it did not change the quality of what I wrote. It is the same before the H or after. So I ask you why do you write and how will it teach you to live?

Du~

 

[LeBroz]

Your Call For Some Input

I had to backtrack on the thread a bit to read the replies I apparently let slip by Me before. One that I wish to immediately address is that by annaswirl. By the way anna, thank you for thinking so highly of My comments regarding your work - I have meant every word <smile>. It was in reference to the label, "troll" and that she {anna} finds it dehumanizing and unfair to those that are lumped under the bridge in that group. I couldn't agree more.
Let me just say right now I don't think of anyone on this site - including My perception of a troll - to be inhuman. They may be a shallower and cruder form of a human as I judge them entirely from their actions, but nevertheless, still human. Furthermore, the ONLY people I regard as trolls are those that vote anonymously with sole intent to destroy another's honestly earned rating {and vote that way for no other reason} and one that comments {again, anonymously} by only attacking the author on a personal level and with not one word ever mentioning the poem or story. However, I do not refer to those that comment anonymously, but at least give an opinion on the work at hand, as trolls. We, as authors, are still given the option to delete the comment if it rubs us the wrong way or strikes a sensitive nerve. And a Wanton Vixxxen hint of the day: If you can get past your initial touchy reaction, you may decide to keep the critique after all; seeing it with a clearer perspective and the intentions of the commentator as truly being benign. I found that not jumping to hit the delete button on My bio page, but diverting Myself by going to look or do something else and coming back in a desensitized state helped immeasurably. And I kept the critiques; bar none. Although a handful of critics could afford to take a few lessons in people skills before writing their critiques, the vast majority here genuinely strive to give their help in a sincere non offensive way. I refer to a troll as "it" simply because I know not the gender {nor do I care WHO they are; just THAT they are} and like a cancer, they cause varying degrees of turmoil with no purpose but to destroy something otherwise healthy. I see nothing of positive value from them - NOTHING. I don't refer to cancer as a he or she either; just "it". Once again I will stress this is MY perception of a troll and hence, the reality of that situation to ME.
As far as the proposal to ban anonymous troll voting, it is SOLELY with that intention I am taking this cause up. I merely want to level the playing field. The troll would maintain their right to vote a one, but would have to identify his/herself. Of course, I realize there are other factors that need resolved, such as the alternate bio page{s} that they would seek as the loophole, but knowing how advanced and sophisticated Literotica's system is, I am sure a solution could be found. I am crusading for this change not as a power hungry revolutionist, but as a fellow Lit author that sees the troll situation as nothing but unnecessary anguish for many here. If it comes to be, the term "troll" will be non existent and the site {and all of its poets/ authors} will be the better for the change. If anyone has some ideas about possible solutions, please share them with Me and the others that wish to offer their support in remedying this problem. I am of pure heart when it comes to bringing a change so that integrity and honesty reigns our site. I hope you believe as I do that it can be done.

Laura

You ask all for input so here I'll take the opportunity to share with all my thoughts on this issue - here then's an extract from the suggestions I sent you <with further thoughts so marked>:

"4. Create a free, members only area with the following standards:

a. Entry limited to registered members with a fully complete bio page <or established Lit site contributors>. Members that choose not to fill in their profile completely would be limited to the public area.
b. Public comments/voting continue as at present with authors continuing to have the right to delete comments at their discretion. Changing the voting in the public area, such as making such votes "dummy" votes, with no impact on the story rating, could be too unwieldy to work well.
c. Create a separate members only comment/voting vehicle. One vote, one comment per member per story/poem. All votes to be supported by the comment. This would be the vote that should count for the author's viewing pleasure. This could be kept in the members only area, or displayed next to the public vote, by way of contrast.
1) Change vote scale to a 1-10 scale. Under the present system the 5 is equivalent to an A/B, 4 to a C/D, and 3,2, or 1 is an F. With a 1-10 scale, the 10 & 9 is equivalent to an A, 8 to a B, 7 to a C, 6 to a D, and everything else, an F.
2) To vote, member must offer a comment supporting his vote.
3) Set default on scale to 10 (not 5) - don't want to unfairly hurt authors through members' shortsightedness. <or perhaps default to barely passing - a 7?>
4) Set standards that make it clear to members that abusive comments are not welcome (see point 3 above) and can be removed at the author's discretion. Also, allow authors, in removing such comments/votes to set a flag so as to preclude the member from coming in and attacking that particular piece again. In short, the member would have thrown away his vote.
5) Also, make clear to members that detailed critiques that purport to show why the member's vision is correct and the author's is not, are also not wanted. Such ranting should be left to the public area or in a private exchange with the author.
d. The advantage to the site is that authors can then spend less time defending themselves from the hateful assaults that presently occur in the public area. By setting standards in the members only area, the hurtful impact of the troll attacks will be minimized. There will still be mean-minded people that will manage to infest the members only area, just like cockroaches can be seen in the cleanest home. But their impact will be minimized.


Again, I offer these suggestions in a positive spirit, meant to improve the experience of the serious reader and author. Erotic literature touches a very private and special part of every reader. I would hope to see this suggested change bring about fewer troll attacks and the appearance of more constructive criticisms.

Sorry to have to get up on my soapbox, but the appearance of recent troll attacks on this site have become too much to bear. It's bad enough to see this kind of mindset on the Loving Wives genre; but seeing this kind of conduct lately on Romance stories and poems just crossed the line on basic civility. "


And yes, I know what I like when I see it. I went to my shelves and pulled out a couple of books - Browning & Byron - and knew that in reading some of their work they might not get a high score from me (or no vote at all). I don't view the poem's score as a measure of "perfection" but as a measure of how well the work resonates with readers. So when the proverbial troll scans down the list of red icons and hits them so well, it's a measure of his barren soul. So go ahead Vixxx and run with this all you will.

 

[LeBroz]

To Be Seen

I found when I write for me to release what I need to teach or say I am not looking at ratings rather I am exploring the possiblities that others have so much to share with me. And then one day just when you do not expect it a poem or two that you love the most will suddenly be rewarded with a H. In the end did it matter H or not? To me no for it did not change the quality of what I wrote. It is the same before the H or after. So I ask you why do you write and how will it teach you to live?

Du~

A point well taken and I think that the best works being offered (red icons or not notwithstanding) are done because the author has something to say. And yes, to later get that red icon serves as a sort of affirmation, a "Yes, I get it" that makes the author feel "seen."

 

[Jennifer C]

My take, say what you want, vote as you will, just do so with a fucking name attached. Let the rest sort out who the asshole is, the poet or the commentor.

Get rid of anon, it is a corruption of what could be a valuble feedback loop. Pat's point should be well taken also, an honest critic is your best friend.

Laura, I'm with you.
twelveoone, friendless but with his OWN FUCKING OPINION.

Thank you 1201!

An excellent point very well made!

I'm with you and laura!...

 

[LeBroz]

Jennifer

Thank you 1201!

An excellent point very well made!

I'm with you and laura!...

You know where I stand as well (see above on the thread); what really irked me this morning was to see neonurotic get hit and lose half his red icons. Of his 122 poems he started with 74 or so red icons and now it's down to 36!!!

This totally sucks

 

[Jennifer C]

You know where I stand as well (see above on the thread); what really irked me this morning was to see neonurotic get hit and lose half his red icons. Of his 122 poems he started with 74 or so red icons and now it's down to 36!!!

This totally sucks

So now neo's been hit? this is ridiculous but what can ya do?

Yes it does suck!

 

[bogusbrig]

You know where I stand as well (see above on the thread); what really irked me this morning was to see neonurotic get hit and lose half his red icons. Of his 122 poems he started with 74 or so red icons and now it's down to 36!!!

This totally sucks

One has to be realistic. When i had a lot of poems up with H's I lost a lot of H's because of erroneous votes or something like that so it made me realise that one can't even rely on what appears to be positive votes.

That being said, the poems of my own I liked best never got sufficient votes to get H's which was a bigger disappointment because I invested more energy into them but that's life.

There really is no objective measure of ones efforts and votes while they are an ego boost are just that and nothing more. Poems are not math equations one can objectively measure and assert a measure of their quality.

Like life in general, politics comes into play too so one should keep a healthy amount of cynicism whether a poem is feted or not.

 

[annaswirls]

I'm sure this idea has been broached. But here it is... drum roll...

We should get rid of the number voting. Have Public Comments Only. Yup.

That would fix all of this brouhaha. Maybe we should take a poll.



hhmmm.....


.

or just turn the public voting OFF.

think of all of the good that could be done with the time we waste discussing meaningless numbers

lets go save some seals or something

 

[flyguy69]

I am loathe to even enter this conversation, but why would any of us feel a poem doesn't deserve a 1? Does any of us possess the omniscience to step inside a voter's skull and decide that they actually liked the poem, and erred in voting?

If 25 people love a poem and one person hates it, is that one person wrong? Should that one person keep their mouth shut because they are in the minority? Does that one person owe the author a defense of their feelings, especially since the author has solicited those feelings through votes?

Every poem gets exactly the score it deserves. If you are uncomfortable with the fact that some folks don't like your poetry, turn the voting off.

Below is a poem from one of the more revered poets here at Lit. Do you love it? Hate it? Are you wrong for either?

BB, you know you are a damn fine poet, and don't need H's to confirm that. Nor does Neo.

gennerator
smithpeter

stray stray voltage
up from grounded
up inside pant leg
dog leg, cat scratch

new moons gonna
New Moons will be more polite
and literate
literati vacating charmed
opening doors

inhaling your arms
I fly with little spark
we ignore the black storm
science flowers
stupid humans who design and forget reason

pretty adjectives
racing adverbs
naughty kiss
long slow insertion
breathless

shock me one more time
again

 

[Wanton Vixxxen]

Perhaps its because I'm not a poet...

that I choose to write to entertain others; moreso than to write for Myself. Du has the perfect mind set {about writing for yourself and not for others}, but I seem to see this opinion coming from those that are poets, rather than storytellers. Is that the difference in My way of thinking? I fulfill all of My needs in writing WHEN I am writing My piece and then I submit it in hopes of getting an HONEST opinion from the readers about My work. Yes, I want to know if they have enjoyed My work, what they felt grabbed them, what didn't and could have if I had arranged it differently, what seemed "real" to them in mood, etc. I don't spend a gazillion hours ignoring the bramble bushes of dust floating through My house while I'm on a writing role all to be ignored and just seen through My eyes as good after it has posted. I want an honest opinion, perhaps if I am fortunate to get one with a vote from the Lit readers and not be trolled so I have to take time once more away from removing the bramble bushes reporting the piece to Lit to have them investigate if, in fact, its been trolled. Sure, I can do this again and probably get all of My H's restored from this last troll sweep, but...
I'M NOT GOING TO DO THAT THIS TIME.
This cause I'm involved with isn't about anything but to remove the edge of convenience and speed and anonymity's shield of troll voting. Nothing more. The rest will take care of itself. If anything, this H disappearance from the troll's doing on all of Mine and My fellow Lit writers' works has just made Me more determined to dig in My heels and see what can be done to rectify these unwarranted and unfair waves of theft. For those that aren't interested in the voting system's merits of icons and contest qualification minimums, etc., then if this proposal is implemented, it will not affect you anyway. But please understand freedom of anonymous troll voting as it now stands, DOES affect many of us and should be eliminated as it presently works. The suggestions presented to the webmasters will be those that merely remove the anonymity cloak and will not curtail the present trolls from casting their one votes on any material, but they will have to do so as we vote - with a name.
Oh, I take it back that I'm not going to report to Lit about suspected troll voting and requesting them to remove it. But it will be on OTHERS works -
not Mine. Until this plague is addressed, I am going to become a guardian angel {can you picture ME with wings? LOL} and report every work I notice that has had their H icon suspiciously removed and allow the Lit staff to investigate it. I've done this several times before when I have noticed some odd activity randomly on other poets' works and they have always, without exception, corrected them and restored what was the rating prior to the troll damage. But I also realize this is just a band-aid on the wound and not the cure. I seek the overall cure to this infection and ask that you do the same. Take a poet's work under your wing and report the suspected trolled piece{s} to Lit. At the moment, it is the only thing we can do to right the wrong of anonymous troll voting.
And this is for 1201 - you are NOT friendless; just standing up for what you, too, believe in. We go it together with others...My friend.

All for Lit,
Laura