The lowest of the low

[My Erotic Tale]

perhaps you are voicing your opinion with out reading, a poem recieves 13 =5 votes and doesn't recieve a one vote till it reaches the top list or gets it's red "H" then it is attacked, not constructive voting.



I'm not in the habit of just popping off, Art! well actually I am but not about such serious issues. [SIZE=-2]spoken tongue in cheek[/SIZE]

Lets do the math. 13 x 5 = 65 + 1 + 66 divided by 14 = 4.7. A 4.7 is not a bad score! 3 tenths away from perfect? Who's to complain? A lot of people, sometimes including myself only read the top lists when I'm short of time or just bored.

I wonder why when you get a 3 you think you've been attacked and you don't think "hmmm... maybe my poems need work." or "I guess this person doesn't like my style."

Pat's right- anyone can make a new name and vote willy nilly.

I guess in a perfect world I'd like to get folks to stop thinking the votes here are what makes them a poet or not. It's the comments that are important- fuck the numbers! And if you really want constructive feedback post your poem on a thread. Ask for comments. What you get (or don't) will be far more revealing.

Vixxxen? TY, sweety. I put the poems I want comment from here on a thread. It makes discussion, changes and mea culpa's easier. BUT... I also have my url in my profile so you can find more of my work anytime. I have often seen a poem I liked and gone to read more and there is no url for that writer. The Author Index is a pain in the ass and so I don't get to read more of that writers work.

ahem... all of you who don't have it in your profile! lol

I would normally agree with you Boo....but the 16th vote was at 4.50 now look, the one bombs tend to plummet a rating faster than a 5 can make it climb...


ZMP~ Ivy to the Sky No Description.
4.41 17 164 Non-Erotic Poetry (English) 07/17/05 approved
Public Comments: 11


I am all for a leason in how this equation shapes,

13th vote it sat at 5.0 on the 16th vote it sat at 4.50

I will say that I don't write for numbers but I watch the score. Like has been said the comments and feedbasck are to true tellers of a poems worth. The numbers is like politics or gamblers and accountants those who play in them.

 

[PatCarrington]

It's languishing. Languidly.

And it's a terzanelle.

maybe that's why.

 

[Eleanora Day]

maybe that's why.

Perhaps you should read it and comment. Make it feel welcome even though it does follow a pattern. You might think it's well written.

 

[BooMerengue]

I would normally agree with you Boo....but the 16th vote was at 4.50 now look, the one bombs tend to plummet a rating faster than a 5 can make it climb...


ZMP~ Ivy to the Sky No Description.
4.41 17 164 Non-Erotic Poetry (English) 07/17/05 approved
Public Comments: 11


I am all for a leason in how this equation shapes,

13th vote it sat at 5.0 on the 16th vote it sat at 4.50

I will say that I don't write for numbers but I watch the score. Like has been said the comments and feedbasck are to true tellers of a poems worth. The numbers is like politics or gamblers and accountants those who play in them.

Well, Art, I'm sorry about that, but even a 4.50 I think is pretty good. Now go look at the comments... Out of how many comments how many are good constructive comments and how many are "Yay, Art, my friend I know shit about poetry but I like you so I'll give you a 5!" If you have 16 votes and you have 3 or 4 that are constructive, then your poem has had a good run. Next time, place your poem on a thread and ask for constructive critique and you will then get the true essence of what the Poetry Forum is really about. Then go and post it.

Last time I counted I had about 20 poems that had about 7 or 8 5's. I could beggar myself and ask for more, but that seems tacky. I just savor what I have and work harder. I did, however, in answer to a comment in a PM after my post here was read, post a poem on Lit today. It's done time on a thread with very little attention, so I don't think it's very good. We shall see... It's a Villanelle and form poetry isn't very well received here. (and in my opinion it's written awkwardly)I have found some sites that only take form poems, so thats where I concentrate. But I do welcome commentary... (hint! hint!) lol

 

[bogusbrig]

There is no real measure as to the quality of ones poetry because as with all art we are discussing a very subjective experience.

There are a couple of poets I will read on reflex of seeing their name, if I have little time and if I have more time I'm more apt to read a bigger group of poets. Now and again I have time to read all the new poems of the day and occasionally I'm pleasantly surprised and feel rather stupid at having missed some good work.

I'm aware I should give more feedback but I'm also aware that I don't want to hurt peoples feelings by being too honest, though with some poets I sense honest criticism is openly welcome and I'm happy with providing it.

The poets and poems I like best, I return time and again to and giving a 5 doesn't measure my true admiration of them. My point. There just isn't a true measure of appreciation and with a new system to show material appreciation, I suspect we will be arguing about that after a period of time and realising it is also inadequate.

 

[Jennifer C]

I lost 13 H's in one day, 7 of which were poems in the top list. I'm angry as hell and actually quite sad to think that poeple would troll for their own personal gain or out of jealousy and insecurity, but what can I do?

The answer; absolutely nothing except keep writing, keep improving and keep posting because I will not let these people get to me, they can take away my H's but they cannot take my love of writing.

 

[LeBroz]

Hail the Word Crafters

I usually limit my chatter to the public comments, but this most recent troll attack on the Vixxx (one of my absolute favs) is just too much. I've seen this happen to My Erotic Tale as well and I don't doubt that others have been assaulted as well.

I'm just a simple reader. I don't have a fictitious bio to hide behind. I say what I think and stand by my name. The fictitious bio's a cowards way out - the way a regular Lit contributor can hide and attack and belittle the works and words of others. I look at the top list of poems to help find new gems and hopefully I'll enjoy it. If not, I'll ignore it. And in over 200 works I've read and commented on, both poems and stories, I give lots of 5's (and that's NOT perfect), a smattering of 4's and, to date, one 3. So when I rate I remember school oh so many decades ago and consider the following additional detail to try to be fairer:

5 = A/B
4 = C/D
3 = F

So when I see a troll attack, it's an attack on me as well. Denying me the pleasure of some incredibly inventive minds, as it strikes down those few who dare to rise. And yes, it is personal - when your poems cause me to craft my comments in verse that speaks to the magnificent power of your words. The power of the poem is great; it speaks not just to the mind but to its integrated emotions as well - so these troll drive-by shootings are especially hurtful.

So, just for the record, when I put up a public comment I strive to tell you what and how I like your work. If there's something that doesn't click I'll mention that as well, in as low-key a manner as possible. Even my criticisms will be diplomatic, especially after seeing some of those hateful public comments. When I read some of those venom-filled comments the cockroaches spew, it makes my blood boil, even if I didn't especailly like the work being slammed. If it makes ME feel THAT at a comment not knowingly directed at me, I can imagine how you, the artist feels.

One last thing - an apology in advance - if I am so moved by your work, that I swing into verse - it won't come near the quality of your work, but sometimes, I just can't help it. Just don't take offense.

 

[BooMerengue]

Thats the nice thing about this place... to each his own. Just because I think a poem is perfect, that doesn't mean it is. I'm hardly the one to judge that. And just cuz I think it's not perfect, doesn't mean it isn't.

But at least the writers of the poems I comment on know how I feel. No ambivalence. It grabs me or it doesn't.

*outta here to watch from the sidelines as this thread crashes and burns... LOL

Peace, y'all!

 

[Jennifer C]

I usually limit my chatter to the public comments, but this most recent troll attack on the Vixxx (one of my absolute favs) is just too much. I've seen this happen to My Erotic Tale as well and I don't doubt that others have been assaulted as well.

I'm just a simple reader. I don't have a fictitious bio to hide behind. I say what I think and stand by my name. The fictitious bio's a cowards way out - the way a regular Lit contributor can hide and attack and belittle the works and words of others. I look at the top list of poems to help find new gems and hopefully I'll enjoy it. If not, I'll ignore it. And in over 200 works I've read and commented on, both poems and stories, I give lots of 5's (and that's NOT perfect), a smattering of 4's and, to date, one 3. So when I rate I remember school oh so many decades ago and consider the following additional detail to try to be fairer:

5 = A/B
4 = C/D
3 = F

So when I see a troll attack, it's an attack on me as well. Denying me the pleasure of some incredibly inventive minds, as it strikes down those few who dare to rise. And yes, it is personal - when your poems cause me to craft my comments in verse that speaks to the magnificent power of your words. The power of the poem is great; it speaks not just to the mind but to its integrated emotions as well - so these troll drive-by shootings are especially hurtful.

So, just for the record, when I put up a public comment I strive to tell you what and how I like your work. If there's something that doesn't click I'll mention that as well, in as low-key a manner as possible. Even my criticisms will be diplomatic, especially after seeing some of those hateful public comments. When I read some of those venom-filled comments the cockroaches spew, it makes my blood boil, even if I didn't especailly like the work being slammed. If it makes ME feel THAT at a comment not knowingly directed at me, I can imagine how you, the artist feels.

One last thing - an apology in advance - if I am so moved by your work, that I swing into verse - it won't come near the quality of your work, but sometimes, I just can't help it. Just don't take offense.

I know what you mean, vixxx is one of my fav's too and to see her work trolled is awful, I feel as bad for her as i did when i saw my own trolled!

I know you can't get rid of the trolls but lately it seems it's really getting out of hand, it's happening too often and to too many wonderful writers who also happen to be lovely people!

I'm just getting sick of it now i've even considered leaving Lit for a while to get away from it all, but that is just giving in! I know these ramblings won't do any good, but it helps for us all to come together and get stuff of our chests.

We are people as well as writers so trolling hurts no matter how much we know it's comments and feedback that matter most an attack on our work is still very upsetting.

I'm no great poet and that I know so my H's were very important to me, now there gone I just feel really shitty, if they went bcause the poem was bad then fair dos but they were trolled, for whatever reason.

I personally think Lit should do away with the toplists, they are not a true reflection of the best poems, as many are only there because better ones have been trolled. I feel the toplists are a trollers playground!

Again I know this will do no good, but fuck it! I've had my say!

 

[Curiouswife]

It is clear that a lot of you have good ideas as to what a poetry site should be like.

Have any of you thought about getting together and starting your own?

I think we would all agree that the majority of Literotica members are not coming here to read poetry. Perhaps a site specifically for poetry would attract a more serious crowd?

There have got to be some people on here that know how to build a website from scratch. And there are some easy-to-use editors out there. I know FrontPage like the back of my hand.

Maybe something for you guys to think about...

Or maybe there are some good sites out there that I am unaware of? I am new to all of this...

-I hope this is not taken in the wrong way, because I enjoy this site and I definitely am not trying to put it down in any way.-

Julia

 

[Jennifer C]

It is clear that a lot of you have good ideas as to what a poetry site should be like.

Have any of you thought about getting together and starting your own?

I think we would all agree that the majority of Literotica members are not coming here to read poetry. Perhaps a site specifically for poetry would attract a more serious crowd?

There have got to be some people on here that know how to build a website from scratch. And there are some easy-to-use editors out there. I know FrontPage like the back of my hand.

Maybe something for you guys to think about...

Or maybe there are some good sites out there that I am unaware of? I am new to all of this...

-I hope this is not taken in the wrong way, because I enjoy this site and I definitely am not trying to put it down in any way.-

Julia

Thanks for the suggestion, that's not actually a bad idea! I do love Lit though even with the trolls! lol

 

[twelveoone]

I usually limit my chatter to the public comments, but this most recent troll attack on the Vixxx (one of my absolute favs) is just too much. I've seen this happen to My Erotic Tale as well and I don't doubt that others have been assaulted as well.

I'm just a simple reader. I don't have a fictitious bio to hide behind. I say what I think and stand by my name. The fictitious bio's a cowards way out - the way a regular Lit contributor can hide and attack and belittle the works and words of others. I look at the top list of poems to help find new gems and hopefully I'll enjoy it. If not, I'll ignore it. And in over 200 works I've read and commented on, both poems and stories, I give lots of 5's (and that's NOT perfect), a smattering of 4's and, to date, one 3. So when I rate I remember school oh so many decades ago and consider the following additional detail to try to be fairer:

5 = A/B
4 = C/D
3 = F

So when I see a troll attack, it's an attack on me as well. Denying me the pleasure of some incredibly inventive minds, as it strikes down those few who dare to rise. And yes, it is personal - when your poems cause me to craft my comments in verse that speaks to the magnificent power of your words. The power of the poem is great; it speaks not just to the mind but to its integrated emotions as well - so these troll drive-by shootings are especially hurtful.

So, just for the record, when I put up a public comment I strive to tell you what and how I like your work. If there's something that doesn't click I'll mention that as well, in as low-key a manner as possible. Even my criticisms will be diplomatic, especially after seeing some of those hateful public comments. When I read some of those venom-filled comments the cockroaches spew, it makes my blood boil, even if I didn't especailly like the work being slammed. If it makes ME feel THAT at a comment not knowingly directed at me, I can imagine how you, the artist feels.

One last thing - an apology in advance - if I am so moved by your work, that I swing into verse - it won't come near the quality of your work, but sometimes, I just can't help it. Just don't take offense.

Blessed are the comment leavers
Blessed are the 3-5 voters
Blessed are the new writers that still get pissed.

New writers can use encouragement
Been here, you can use criticism, ALL HONEST CRITICISM IS VALID, it is how that person sees it, they are the audience. Anonymous zero leavers- something else is going on. Voting without comments( or at least a name), useless to the writer, lazy on the voters part.

 

[Jennifer C]

Blessed are the comment leavers
Blessed are the 3-5 voters
Blessed are the new writers that still get pissed.

New writers can use encouragement
Been here, you can use criticism, ALL HONEST CRITICISM IS VALID, it is how that person sees it, they are the audience. Anonymous zero leavers- something else is going on. Voting without comments( or at least a name), useless to the writer, lazy on the voters part.

I'm with you 1201! Well said

 

[twelveoone]

I'm with you 1201! Well said

really?
that's the nicest AV that ever said that to me

 

[Jennifer C]

really?
that's the nicest AV that ever said that to me

Lol, then i'm honoured

 

[champagne1982]

I decided to bring this note forward from an earlier page on this thread because it seems many people are still locked into the thinking that an anonymous low vote is a valid opinion. Get a grip folks. They don't count and the webmasters will remedy the situation as they feel it warrants...

Hello everyone,

Accepting and using critique is one way to grow as a poet and author. Another way to improve your writing is to spend some time giving honest voice to a critique of a poem or story you'd like to see improved. If you're fortunate in the choice of artist (not the work, but the human behind it) and are fair in your assessment of the ART (this time I mean the work), you'll see a good poet become better as a direct result of your efforts.

So, to everyone who reads this and says, "I can't critique, I'm not good enough." or "I'm too ignorant of what makes a good poem." I say, "Ah may not know poe-tree, but Ah done did do know what Ah likes." So if you choose to try and write an assessment, be honest and approach a critique in such a way that you are trying to turn something you know you like, into something you'll like even more. Remember, if you don't feel like sharing this feedback publically, you can either pm the writer or email them if their address is available.

OH! Always try to be sure your views are welcome. I try to find threads on the forum where poets actually ask for review and feedback very helpful in determining their willingness to accept critique.

Keep writing and sharing, everyone. Don't let a negative voice ruin a positive experience.

 

[BooMerengue]

I'm sure this idea has been broached. But here it is... drum roll...

We should get rid of the number voting. Have Public Comments Only. Yup.

That would fix all of this brouhaha. Maybe we should take a poll.



hhmmm.....


.

 

[Jennifer C]

I'm sure this idea has been broached. But here it is... drum roll...

We should get rid of the number voting. Have Public Comments Only. Yup.

That would fix all of this brouhaha. Maybe we should take a poll.



hhmmm.....


.

I think your right Boo, comments and feedback are the most important thing after all. people come here to read, write and learn not to score points, although getting an H is nice! lol, but if the voting feature is going to be abused then it should be taken away, it would stop all this stupid trolling, although no doubt i'm sure we would find something else to moan about! lol

 

[LeBroz]

Hey, I Like The Votes

I think your right Boo, comments and feedback are the most important thing after all. people come here to read, write and learn not to score points, although getting an H is nice! lol, but if the voting feature is going to be abused then it should be taken away, it would stop all this stupid trolling, although no doubt i'm sure we would find something else to moan about! lol

I like the votes, especially giving out 5's and seeing all them red H's. It's the nasty one, the anonymous one, who strikes with ones, who makes us all suffer. Take away his vote and he'll still make his (anonymous) presence known in such delusionally pithy prose such as "It sucks."

 

[BooMerengue]

I like the votes, especially giving out 5's and seeing all them red H's. It's the nasty one, the anonymous one, who strikes with ones, who makes us all suffer. Take away his vote and he'll still make his (anonymous) presence known in such delusionally pithy prose such as "It sucks."

Mr/Ms Anonymous can only make you suffer if you allow it. I know my numbers don't mean a lot (and I have a LOT of those red H's) cuz most of the votes are my buddies. Take away anonymous comments; just leave comments by those who will identify themselves and the problem w/ Trolls will go away and we can still get the praise/criticism we need.

 

[LeBroz]

Amen To That

Mr/Ms Anonymous can only make you suffer if you allow it. I know my numbers don't mean a lot (and I have a LOT of those red H's) cuz most of the votes are my buddies. Take away anonymous comments; just leave comments by those who will identify themselves and the problem w/ Trolls will go away and we can still get the praise/criticism we need.

A thought that I shared with the Vixxx, that without making the site too exclusionary that there be a member's only area - have to have a full bio for access and one vote WITH one comment per submission. No sneak attack by trolls and hopefully more positive feedback. Just a thought.

 

[PatCarrington]

let’s assume for a moment that all poets who submit poetry here want to improve their writing (for those that are just sharing, what I’m about to say has no bearing).

i’ve been here for a year. there have been countless threads crucifying trolls…yes, they suck…yes, anonymity is cowardly…everyone agrees, except them.

but they’re easy to recognize, and therefore they should be easy to ignore, since you know what they are.

i have seen some, but not nearly as much complaint about a common problem here that is far more widespread - and that is the amount of blind praise that is passed around.

comments of blanket praise outnumber troll comments 100 to 1, and that includes here on the threads. that is the case for many reasons, too many to get into.

they may feel good, but are they?

they may encourage you to write, but do they encourage you to improve? or do they lead you to believe that there is no great urgency to get better?

they may be politically correct, but in my mind they do real damage.

trolls are easy to deal with – blow off steam, curse and rant, turn off the voting mechanism when you post.

blind praise is not easy to deal with, since one’s first instinct is to not only like it, but also believe it.

that makes it far more sinister (unintentionally, of course), in my opinion, no matter how kind-hearted the intent was.

and saying “i’m not competent enough to give constructive criticism” doesn’t hold water. can a person be ‘not competent’ enough to give criticism, yet competent enough to give praise?

no poem is perfect. no writer is perfect. trying to find imperfection or areas for improvement in another’s writing will not only help them, but also make the commenter a better writer as well.

personally, trolls make me snicker. blanket praise is what boils my blood.

 

[Jennifer C]

let’s assume for a moment that all poets who submit poetry here want to improve their writing (for those that are just sharing, what I’m about to say has no bearing).

i’ve been here for a year. there have been countless threads crucifying trolls…yes, they suck…yes, anonymity is cowardly…everyone agrees, except them.

but they’re easy to recognize, and therefore they should be easy to ignore, since you know what they are.

i have seen some, but not nearly as much complaint about a common problem here that is far more widespread - and that is the amount of blind praise that is passed around.

comments of blanket praise outnumber troll comments 100 to 1, and that includes here on the threads. that is the case for many reasons, too many to get into.

they may feel good, but are they?

they may encourage you to write, but do they encourage you to improve? or do they lead you to believe that there is no great urgency to get better?

they may be politically correct, but in my mind they do real damage.

trolls are easy to deal with – blow off steam, curse and rant, turn off the voting mechanism when you post.

blind praise is not easy to deal with, since one’s first instinct is to not only like it, but also believe it.

that makes it far more sinister (unintentionally, of course), in my opinion, no matter how kind-hearted the intent was.

and saying “i’m not competent enough to give constructive criticism” doesn’t hold water. can a person be ‘not competent’ enough to give criticism, yet competent enough to give praise?

no poem is perfect. no writer is perfect. trying to find imperfection or areas for improvement in another’s writing will not only help them, but also make the commenter a better writer as well.

personally, trolls make me snicker. blanket praise is what boils my blood.

Ok I see where your coming from but how do you determine excatly what blind praise is?

I've been here for 2 years and i've come to the conclusion that alot of writers do just post for fun and to share their work, if they wanted to improve or seek advice they would ask for it, either by adding a note to their submission or by using the forums.

Does telling a writer you like his/her work count as blind praise? and what if you like it and give your reasons why but another disagrees, does that make it blind praise?

If all a writer wants is a 'did you like it?' comment and you do, is that blind praise?
I think that if a writer really wants to improve then they will make that point known, in which case 'blind praise' wont mean anything to them, but if they don't then what's the harm?

Where does blind Praise start and end?

 

[PatCarrington]

Ok I see where your coming from but how do you determine excatly what blind praise is?

I've been here for 2 years and i've come to the conclusion that alot of writers do just post for fun and to share their work, if they wanted to improve or seek advice they would ask for it, either by adding a note to their submission or by using the forums.

Does telling a writer you like his/her work count as blind praise? and what if you like it and give your reasons why but another disagrees, does that make it blind praise?

If all a writer wants is a 'did you like it?' comment and you do, is that blind praise?
I think that if a writer really wants to improve then they will make that point known, in which case 'blind praise' wont mean anything to them, but if they don't then what's the harm?

Where does blind Praise start and end?

jen,

if you're just posting to share, my remarks were not relevant. i said that in the first sentence.

if all a writer wants is feelgood feedback, it won't harm them.

the potential harm i see is to a newer poet who does wish to improve, and receives a sufficient amount of 'gee, this is so great. i love it!' to become toxic to their progress by providing reason to stop editing and looking for improvement in their poem.

if it's already great, not only will they let it be, but they'll write another and another and another in the same way.

i don't think praise is helpful ( nor is criticism ) unless you give specifics. unless you state what you liked ( or disliked ) and why.

there is a difference between encouragement and thoughtless praise.

 

[Jennifer C]

jen,

if you're just posting to share, my remarks were not relevant. i said that in the first sentence.

if all a writer wants is feelgood feedback, it won't harm them.

the potential harm i see is to a newer poet who does wish to improve, and receives a sufficient amount of 'gee, this is so great. i love it!' to become toxic to their progress by providing reason to stop editing and looking for improvement in their poem.

if it's already great, not only will they let it be, but they'll write another and another and another in the same way.

i don't think praise is helpful ( nor is criticism ) unless you give specifics. unless you state what you liked ( or disliked ) and why.

there is a difference between encouragement and thoughtless praise.

Yeah ok I get that but saying 'gee this is great' to a poet who wants to learn wont stop them wanting to get better, and if that is that persons opinion then I don't see the harm. If they thought the poem was great then that is their opinion and they have every right to say that.

I really don't mean to be argumentative here, i'm just trying to get where you are coming from, is thoughtless praise from one person really so bad? and if it comes from more then one then does that make the praise thoughtless?