The never-ending "labels" debate

[TypicalDeviant]

I seem to remember one casual visitor. ~smile~

Unfortunately, there have been others.

Now the true face of "casual" pet names emerges and we can see just how abusive you guys really are.

At least you're being yourselves for once so all the lurkers can learn about the TRUE nature of "casual" pet names.

But I wouldn't expect you to understand.

~smiles~

 

[where]

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[antiasexual]

Excellent thread topic

I hope we are allowed to be brutally honest here. I rarely venture to say my mind regarding this topic out in the open. Disclaimer: I am a really nice guy, and yes I have a great sense of humour! But....I am going to take this topic seriously. So here goes.

- I have well over 15 years experience in kink. In that time, I have discovered a lot of frankly repugnant, and often time annoying traits and habits in the so-called BDSM community. Here we go...

1) Labels - This is one of the most irritating aspects. From my perspective, the obsession with labels seems to be a little bit like how teen-age gamers view the world: Its like we are in a world of "levels", and "hit-points", and "character classes", except instead of some kind of MMORPG, its our sex-life we are talking about, and I find it to be contrived and trite.

Like So: "Hey GUYZ, I am Redrose-Bud-VampireChik32!!! I am owned and protected by BigSLAYER87, and currently under tutorial from level 74 BigBOssMaster, who is in the harem of Zagreb90. I am ONLY interested in switch men on Sundays, who have hard-core Dorito Cool-Ranch Fetish".

Are you fu*&ing kidding me? Sometimes profiles look JUST like that. (well almost....you get the point).

As a man that CANNOT be easily defined, I find that the more conformity to categorization there is: the tougher it is for an individual like myself to communicate his interests and reach some kind of understanding. Labels are fine, but the excessive use of them has really cheapened the experience.

Have I had a woman call me Master? SURE! But have I had the creativity to get her to call me a lot of other kinky crazy names? YES! Dear lord.

2) "Munches" (also related to labels) - A meet-up of kinks just automatically seems to be a so-called "Munch". Besides the fact that I abbhor the "cute" (can you tell?), this is a non-descriptive term, and seems to really bring out the boring and non-sexual. I have attended dozens of these "munches", and have always arrived mature, well-dressed, friendly, and often with a woman or WOMEN in tow. 9 times out of 10 (not always, but often), the "Munches" are populated by label-obsessed crazies.

I am the kinky one here! And I am thinking these people are crazy. Crazy boring, that is. Not like I would ever say it out loud...I am quite polite and well-mannered when meeting any stranger, who automatically deserves kindness and respect.

- Sometimes the discussion seems to degenerate into INCREDIBLY detailed rules, exchanges about what to do and what not to do, that again, it reminds me of teen-age roleplaying. This is a massive turn-off. Yes, I completely understand the need for rules, and frankly, I have been following my own set of common-sense safety rules since before I was "legal", thanks very much. I am often left wondering why these groups are so DESEXUALIZED. Thats right......desexualized. Sometimes, its like BDSM-minded individuals feel some nascent guilt bubbling up, and use the rule-book as a way to make themselves feel psychologically legitimized, and its irritating.

Final Note: I have met some VERY kinky women in my time (lots). One thing I have discovered.....the more kinky and intelligent she is: the less she seems to want to go to a "MUNCH", call me "Master", and generally engage in pop-culture BDSM activities. Her intelligence and demand for something truly unique allows me to show who I REALLY am....not some pre-packaged HBO version of kink.

Hail to that.

 

[JMohegan]

Can I safely assume that Mister Sir and Sir Winston are excluded, since they're at least regulars who aren't flashing around their name as "I'm dom you're sub now do this" people?

Nope, no exceptions. Those usernames make me laugh too.

 

[Black_Bunny]

"Hey GUYZ, I am Redrose-Bud-VampireChik32!!! I am owned and protected by BigSLAYER87, and currently under tutorial from level 74 BigBOssMaster, who is in the harem of Zagreb90. I am ONLY interested in switch men on Sundays, who have hard-core Dorito Cool-Ranch Fetish".

Hahahaha!!

I hope we are allowed to be brutally honest here. I rarely venture to say my mind regarding this topic out in the open.
*snip*

Thank you for your honesty. Hope you don't mind my honest opinion in reply:
The title 'Master' doesn't come across as over-used or boring to me... I mean, I don't say the word "boyfriend" is getting old, lets pick a new word... so I think it's unfair to say those who use such labels are being 'uncreative'.

I'm starting to think of the 'rules' as sort of flexible - you honour them for others' sake, but you do what you want in your own relationship. "Rules" set by Grim for example are quite fun... other rules might be in place to make sure others don't get hurt.

I haven't attended a munch yet, but it seems to be the best way to make friends with people in the scene, in my area anyway. I've no idea the type of people who go, I just want to make new friends. Wanting to attend a munch or call my partner 'Master' doesn't make me unintelligent though. I had no idea what the 'ideal version' of a BDSM relationship looked like when we began... our relationship is based on what works for us. I'm not chasing some ideal of what I think we 'should' be.

 

[Kojote]

Thank you for your honesty. Hope you don't mind my honest opinion in reply:
The title 'Master' doesn't come across as over-used or boring to me... I mean, I don't say the word "boyfriend" is getting old, lets pick a new word... so I think it's unfair to say those who use such labels are being 'uncreative'.

I'm starting to think of the 'rules' as sort of flexible - you honour them for others' sake, but you do what you want in your own relationship. "Rules" set by Grim for example are quite fun... other rules might be in place to make sure others don't get hurt.

I haven't attended a munch yet, but it seems to be the best way to make friends with people in the scene, in my area anyway. I've no idea the type of people who go, I just want to make new friends. Wanting to attend a munch or call my partner 'Master' doesn't make me unintelligent though. I had no idea what the 'ideal version' of a BDSM relationship looked like when we began... our relationship is based on what works for us. I'm not chasing some ideal of what I think we 'should' be.

I’ve actually noticed some things about the (rather small) ‚organized local scene’ before/i] I admitted to really being into the bdsm-thing myself.
Basically it comes down to: They are as a whole not really tolerant, open or even intelligent people who just happen to share a certain interest in some things. Things that cannot replace the inability to carry on a normal conversation…

Once I realized that I am dominant and really want to life in this kind of relationship (including the discovery that my girl is submissive) I stopped every contact to this people.
I didn’t have to ask them for advice, because I already knew everything they could tell me wouldn’t fit my personal, ‘non-canon’ way.
Instead I opened my eyes for the people I already knew and liked outside of any avowed bdsm-context. And I found out that there are surprisingly many of them who actually are into this kind of shit in one way or another.

What I try to say with this is that you maybe should listen to your intuition.
You don’t feel really comfortable with the way the people of your local scene view the topic?
Maybe they view it the wrong way, for you.
But maybe there are people you are already comfortable with, which are into some of your kinks without telling you now?
Give it a look…


As for the labels:
I was pretty confused over here at first. The PYL/pyl thing needed some time to get understood. But I managed it without asking…
I realized pretty fast (at least I view it this way) that I don’t need to describe my kind of relationship with labels anyway.
Nobody over here is terribly interested in me outlining the exact nature of my relationship unasked. And that’s perfectly fine with me.
And when the topic comes up I already have to describe it a bit more lengthy, because T/b, D/s or M/s don’t get the point exactly.
Err… Maybe some kind of label actually exists, which describes it perfectly. But then I don’t know it…


You, dear Black Bunny, appear to be an intelligent, young lady.
I think you don’t need experienced bdsm-friends more than intelligent friends (who wouldn’t freak out about bdsm stuff). And I suspect that intelligent friends on your wavelength might turn out having some secret (or not so secret) kinks of their own.
Fuck for the formal ones who pretend to share your interests…

It’s all about individualism, isn’t it?

 

[JMohegan]

My Master recently joined Fetlife and the username he wanted beginning with 'Mr' was taken, so he added 'Master' to the beginning of it. Now a person, I don't want to pick, and he's a new friend, and I'm sure he's a lovely person, its just that what he says is probably the way many others feel too... but he said that 'Master' is a title that only a few have 'earned' and my Dominant may want to re-think his username... his profile clearly states that he is Dominant of Black Bunny, not Master, just as mine states I am submissive not slave... it's a freakin username... So, what now I can't refer to the person I love with a title that shows my respect for him, because some think he hasn't "earnt" that title?!

I haven't attended a munch yet, but it seems to be the best way to make friends with people in the scene, in my area anyway. I've no idea the type of people who go, I just want to make new friends.

If you and your boyfriend go to a munch, and he introduces himself to others as Master So-and-So, just as he did when joining a social group in the virtual world, then the munch participants are very likely to draw conclusions about him based on that self-applied honorific. This may or may not be generally perceived as a negative, depending on the norms of the group you visit.

 

[TypicalDeviant]

stop it. it's creepy.

It's difficult to come to grips when you look in the mirror and see what's lookin-

Goddamn it! Sorry. I can't pull that shit off for too long before I start bursting out laughing.



Now for real, who called me late for dinner?

 

[Keroin]

- Sometimes the discussion seems to degenerate into INCREDIBLY detailed rules, exchanges about what to do and what not to do, that again, it reminds me of teen-age roleplaying. This is a massive turn-off. Yes, I completely understand the need for rules, and frankly, I have been following my own set of common-sense safety rules since before I was "legal", thanks very much. I am often left wondering why these groups are so DESEXUALIZED. Thats right......desexualized. Sometimes, its like BDSM-minded individuals feel some nascent guilt bubbling up, and use the rule-book as a way to make themselves feel psychologically legitimized, and its irritating.

Interesting that you should bring this up. I’m not sure if the reason behind the need for rules, and endless discussions of such, is based in guilt or shame. It seems to me that for many people conversations about BDSM seem to increase the “hotness” factor for them. The kink is in the details, so to speak.

Like you, I find the act of breaking down everything BDSM into minutiae desexualizes it. Even participating in Lit diminished the sexy “taboo” factor for me to some degree. Initially, my reaction, (which I kept mostly to myself), when I would read those sorts of threads was very negative – “You’re taking all the fun out of it!” – but I am beginning to realize that for many people an in-depth discussion of the rules or semantics or psychology or whatever is as much a turn on as it is, to me, a turn off.

Yes, I see the irony of my participation in this thread.

It shouldn’t be surprising that how people live their BDSM is merely an extension of how they live their lives. People who thrive on stability and boundaries are going to feel more comfortable when their BDSM is clearly defined – and even more so when everyone else’s definitions fall in line with theirs.

Final Note: I have met some VERY kinky women in my time (lots). One thing I have discovered.....the more kinky and intelligent she is: the less she seems to want to go to a "MUNCH", call me "Master", and generally engage in pop-culture BDSM activities. Her intelligence and demand for something truly unique allows me to show who I REALLY am....not some pre-packaged HBO version of kink.

Hail to that.

There are some very intelligent people on this discussion board who engage in "pop-culture BDSM activities".

 

[satindesire]

Are they really worth being friends with if they pick on you for your choice of honorific, though, BeeBee?

 

[antiasexual]

I am glad I could stir up some additional interesting discussion, and thanks for all the replies that addressed my little rant.

The golden rule seems to be: different strokes for different folks.

I might find the generally accepted rules (and nomenclature) to be a turn-off, but thats just me.

- My generalized experiences are generalized. I have witnessed/experienced exceptions.
- My generalized experiences may be culturally and regionally specific to my area.

Also, my commentary might be somewhat reactionary, and humour-laden for effect. Of course, many of you might also "relate" to what I say as well.

Hope everyone got some smiles!

 

[Primalex]

Are they really worth being friends with if they pick on you for your choice of honorific, though, BeeBee?

Is she really worth being friends with?

 

[satindesire]

wait...what are "Pop culture BDSM events"? exactly?

 

[where]

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[satindesire]

presumably, yes.



I think it's maybe the way that bdsm has become a bit mainstream?

I don't know. I find the more I read about 'the scene' the funnier it seems, but I am also curious because I have a certain attraction to and conflicting feelings about bdsm. reading and yapping in here helps clarify some ideas which is useful because my beloved has a kind of hands off approach.

wouldnt be seen dead in a munch though

I've been to munches, play parties, all sorts of meet and greets, etc. I was never struck with any strong sense that it was really 'mainstream' and trying to be all pop culture. Most of the time, it was just exactly like a normal party except people wore some pretty weird clothes, and there were areas where you could do more blatantly sexual things with people.

I don't understand what "pop culture BDSM events" means.

 

[BiBunny]

I know what he's talking about. It's the very reason I'm not interested in public play parties, fetish clubs, and so on. I'm not into sterile, prepackaged kink. I play for my own pleasure and the pleasure of the person(s) I'm playing with. That intimate connection is not for public consumption in my world.

 

[Seurat]

I've been to munches, play parties, all sorts of meet and greets, etc. I was never struck with any strong sense that it was really 'mainstream' and trying to be all pop culture. Most of the time, it was just exactly like a normal party except people wore some pretty weird clothes, and there were areas where you could do more blatantly sexual things with people.

I don't understand what "pop culture BDSM events" means.

Take the uniqueness out of the idea, and instead try to incorporate it as part of the newest fad. Comic books for geeks? Make romance and action films out of them until the public no longer thinks of Batman as a cheesy 60's tv show and most people know who 'the Dark Knight' is. Do the same, ad infinitum, to anything seen as geeky or kinky or out of the mainstream.

By introducing elements of BDSM in to already accepted cultural aspects, people began/have begun to see it as the 'next best thing'. Madonna in latex spanking a poodle in a video. Ballet boots worn to movie openings. Tattoos and piercings everywhere. Things begin to lose there meaning.

At that point, munches (sp?) and play parties and anything resembling them move from the 'kink' crowd to the 'wannabe popular' crowd, and become pop culture events.

Yeah, too many words. Oh well.

 

[satindesire]

Take the uniqueness out of the idea, and instead try to incorporate it as part of the newest fad. Comic books for geeks? Make romance and action films out of them until the public no longer thinks of Batman as a cheesy 60's tv show and most people know who 'the Dark Knight' is. Do the same, ad infinitum, to anything seen as geeky or kinky or out of the mainstream.

By introducing elements of BDSM in to already accepted cultural aspects, people began/have begun to see it as the 'next best thing'. Madonna in latex spanking a poodle in a video. Ballet boots worn to movie openings. Tattoos and piercings everywhere. Things begin to lose there meaning.

At that point, munches (sp?) and play parties and anything resembling them move from the 'kink' crowd to the 'wannabe popular' crowd, and become pop culture events.

Yeah, too many words. Oh well.

So in your opinion, things can only have meaning when a select few do them?

I don't agree.

The fact that BDSM has seen a recent surge of media approval is heartening to me, not the opposite. All you have to do is spend time outside in the real world to see that the BDSM crowd was generally viewed as a bunch of sick wierdos. To see people showing elements of BDSM in their own way brings a sense of acceptance, minor thought it may be.

You may see it as them using BDSm as cheap shock tactics, but think of it this way. Back just ten years ago, showing homosexuals on TV was almost unheard of. Now they're everywhere. Was it first used as a shock tactic for ratings? Maybe, but it turned into normal and way more socially acceptable soon after. And that's wonderful, not something to be sneered at.

I personally don't have to think that I'm part of some special secret club with only a few select people in it, in order for my sense of "rightness" or "specialness" to be in effect. BDSM isn't something that we need to keep close to our chests like some kind of disease.

 

[Keroin]

So in your opinion, things can only have meaning when a select few do them?

I don't agree.

The fact that BDSM has seen a recent surge of media approval is heartening to me, not the opposite. All you have to do is spend time outside in the real world to see that the BDSM crowd was generally viewed as a bunch of sick wierdos. To see people showing elements of BDSM in their own way brings a sense of acceptance, minor thought it may be.

You may see it as them using BDSm as cheap shock tactics, but think of it this way. Back just ten years ago, showing homosexuals on TV was almost unheard of. Now they're everywhere. Was it first used as a shock tactic for ratings? Maybe, but it turned into normal and way more socially acceptable soon after. And that's wonderful, not something to be sneered at.

I personally don't have to think that I'm part of some special secret club with only a few select people in it, in order for my sense of "rightness" or "specialness" to be in effect. BDSM isn't something that we need to keep close to our chests like some kind of disease.

I don't think he was making a judgment call. I think he was just trying to answer your question:

what are "Pop culture BDSM events"?

 

[graceanne]

Would that be "Sir Master Lord Schnooky Winkums"?

No, but now I'm gonna.

Don't worry, I'll tell him I got the idea from you.

Can I safely assume that Mister Sir and Sir Winston are excluded, since they're at least regulars who aren't flashing around their name as "I'm dom you're sub now do this" people?

You could give him a pseudonym if you want to have something to call him on here...his initial, a name he uses elsewhere online, a male name you particularly like, or Schmoopsie-kins...something that we would know who it referred to, without it being "master" or something.

Sir Winston's name is after Sir Winston Churchill. Just FYI.

stop it. it's creepy.

QFT

I've been to munches, play parties, all sorts of meet and greets, etc. I was never struck with any strong sense that it was really 'mainstream' and trying to be all pop culture. Most of the time, it was just exactly like a normal party except people wore some pretty weird clothes, and there were areas where you could do more blatantly sexual things with people.

I don't understand what "pop culture BDSM events" means.

I've been to a few munches and felt pretty comfortable. People are more likely to talk about sex and the like there, and some guy cornered my poor husband and talked and talked and TALKED about fisting and how it's the only form of real bdsm and everyone should do it. (I can't be fisted, my pelvis is too narrow.) But other than him, everyone was normal and nice.

 

[MisterSir]

Sir Winston's name is after Sir Winston Churchill. Just FYI.

And mine came out of a kid's book.

2) "Munches" (also related to labels) - A meet-up of kinks just automatically seems to be a so-called "Munch". Besides the fact that I abbhor the "cute" (can you tell?), this is a non-descriptive term, and seems to really bring out the boring and non-sexual. I have attended dozens of these "munches", and have always arrived mature, well-dressed, friendly, and often with a woman or WOMEN in tow. 9 times out of 10 (not always, but often), the "Munches" are populated by label-obsessed crazies.

...Final Note: I have met some VERY kinky women in my time (lots). One thing I have discovered.....the more kinky and intelligent she is: the less she seems to want to go to a "MUNCH", call me "Master", and generally engage in pop-culture BDSM activities. Her intelligence and demand for something truly unique allows me to show who I REALLY am....not some pre-packaged HBO version of kink.

Yeah, pretty much all of my friends who are part of the scene I've met at munches. You only get out of munches what you put in and regardless of how "mature, well-dressed [and] friendly" you think you're being, if you're getting nothing out of the dozens of munches you've been to, you may want to look for the common denominator. And spoiler: It ain't everybody else.

Sense the vitriol bubbling beneath the surface? That's mostly what you get when you start implying the women who go to munches, who use the honorific "Master" and who engage in "pop-culture BDSM" are thick; you are basically just insulting a lot of my friends, including people here.

 

[graceanne]

This conversation of names reminds me of a thread I started awhile back.

How important is other people's user names to your perception of them?

 

[JMohegan]

This conversation of names reminds me of a thread I started awhile back.

How important is other people's user names to your perception of them?

There seem to be two conversations going on here. One about people using honorifics to address their partners, and the other about people who use honorifics in introducing themselves.

With regard to the latter, I was just thinking the same thing you are - reminds me of that old thread!

 

[intothewoods]

I personally don't take usernames that seriously. Mister Man's Fetlife name, for example, has Master in the title, but it's a character from a book. He would never introduce himself by that name at munches or events. That would be goofy.

ETA - Of course, he's rarely if ever on that site anyway.

It's even goofier that someone on Fetlife wants to make sure that only certain people use the Master title. Gah, who cares.

I've met prodommes who introduce themselves with their titles, but I cut them some slack. They're working. I guess I put all of these names in the category of role play, and it's weird to expect me to role play with you if I'm just meeting you at a munch or an event.

 

[JMohegan]

I personally don't take usernames that seriously. Mister Man's Fetlife name, for example, has Master in the title, but it's a character from a book. He would never introduce himself by that name at munches or events. That would be goofy.

ETA - Of course, he's rarely if ever on that site anyway.

It's even goofier that someone on Fetlife wants to make sure that only certain people use the Master title. Gah, who cares.

I've met prodommes who introduce themselves with their titles, but I cut them some slack. They're working. I guess I put all of these names in the category of role play, and it's weird to expect me to role play with you if I'm just meeting you at a munch or an event.

Mister Man posts on Fetlife?

That's the first thing I've read about the place that makes me want to join.