U.S. politics isolation tank

[JMohegan]

If you think about it, there's sort of an internal consistency to the stuff Delong is talking about. Not so much straightforward principled small-government libertarianism---although those people are definitely hitchiking this movement---but a sense that government has abandoned the non-rich, non-technocrat/professional/yuppie/managerial elite and non-underclass. They aren't wrong about that, either.

I see a fundamental inconsistency between positions A - I feel abandoned by the government, and B - anything the government does is socialism and/or out of bounds because of the deficit.

The logical remedy to A would be a call for different government programs. The logical complaint prompting B would be a belief that all big government programs are unacceptable - but if one holds that belief, there's no logical basis for supporting Medicare.

And then there's the more specific inconsistency inherent in screaming to cut taxes out of one side of your mouth, and to cut the deficit out of the other. That's either rank dishonesty, or just plain wishful thinking.

 

[intothewoods]

"We never asked for this socialist program that old LBJ rammed down our throats, but since we were forced into it, why should we feel guilty about using it?"

That's what that comes down to.

aka, don't cut our medicare--we have libertarian principles but we'd rather the next generation set things right.

Speaking of past presidents, does anyone find the Woodrow Wilson thing kinda bizarre? I don't know if this is limited to Glen Beck or not. There was a whole series of articles on Woodrow Wilson in this past Sunday times. I mean, look, I love history, and I do recall the high points of Woodrow Wilson's presidency but, uh, I don't know, when I think Woodrow Wilson, passion and rage are not the feelings that come to mind. The only personality aspect that I recall is the professorial thing, which was mentioned in a few of these articles, and that does explain some of the rage. I mean, we all know professors are the spawn of fucking satan.

And that reminds me of something else -- it seems it is impossible these days to have a news source or version of history that everyone more or less trusts. I mean, I'm not denying that there is some type of bias or influence in everything. But shit, every newspaper is either liberal or conservative? So nothing that a liberal reads can be trusted by a conservative, and vice versa? That's fucking sad. If anyone saw Jesus Camp (I didn't care for it, but that's another story), there was a homeschooling mom teaching her kid that scientists can't really be trusted and global warming and evolution are not based on fact, etc. How sad is that we can't even agree on basic facts? Every scientist is a fucking liberal now? Oy vey.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Speaking of past presidents, does anyone find the Woodrow Wilson thing kinda bizarre? I don't know if this is limited to Glen Beck or not. There was a whole series of articles on Woodrow Wilson in this past Sunday times. I mean, look, I love history, and I do recall the high points of Woodrow Wilson's presidency but, uh, I don't know, when I think Woodrow Wilson, passion and rage are not the feelings that come to mind. The only personality aspect that I recall is the professorial thing, which was mentioned in a few of these articles, and that does explain some of the rage. I mean, we all know professors are the spawn of fucking satan.

And that reminds me of something else -- it seems it is impossible these days to have a news source or version of history that everyone more or less trusts. I mean, I'm not denying that there is some type of bias or influence in everything. But shit, every newspaper is either liberal or conservative? So nothing that a liberal reads can be trusted by a conservative, and vice versa? That's fucking sad. If anyone saw Jesus Camp (I didn't care for it, but that's another story), there was a homeschooling mom teaching her kid that scientists can't really be trusted and global warming and evolution are not based on fact, etc. How sad is that we can't even agree on basic facts? Every scientist is a fucking liberal now? Oy vey.

Beck got the Wilson meme from Jonah Goldberg's polemic Liberal Fascism and ran with it. When he throws his weight behind a meme, it takes off like a rocket.

At least he's gotten the masses interested in what would seem to be a very boring topic. Anything that gets people reading books is a start in my opinion.

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2008/01/liberal-fascism-response.html

The interesting thing about the "some bias or influence in everything" idea is that it originally came out of the academic left. Strange bedfellows to say the least.

 

[JMohegan]

What did we get? Who the fuck knows, it was all done by democrats in some smokey back room and from what I gather no one on either side is happy about it.

What I wanted wasn't even on the fucking table for discussion, much less called up for a vote. So no, I wasn't happy with the outcome.

All we are is one step closer to the most humane AND efficient outcome - single payer for all Americans. One step closer is better than none.

 

[rosco rathbone]

And then there's the more specific inconsistency inherent in screaming to cut taxes out of one side of your mouth, and to cut the deficit out of the other. That's either rank dishonesty, or just plain wishful thinking.

A whole lot of people still believe in supply-side economics.

 

[midwestyankee]

Another way to describe the Tea Party attitude: "It's only socialism when the money goes to someone I don't like."

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

I see a fundamental inconsistency between positions A - I feel abandoned by the government, and B - anything the government does is socialism and/or out of bounds because of the deficit.

The logical remedy to A would be a call for different government programs. The logical complaint prompting B would be a belief that all big government programs are unacceptable - but if one holds that belief, there's no logical basis for supporting Medicare.

And then there's the more specific inconsistency inherent in screaming to cut taxes out of one side of your mouth, and to cut the deficit out of the other. That's either rank dishonesty, or just plain wishful thinking.

There's just the RAGE. That's all that matters. The whole thing is on the level of a first grader. I heard a teabagger the other night at a debate, and at least he said what he'd eliminate: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the IRS, the Dept. of Education, all foreign aid and most of our military presence, in addition to gutting the EPA, consumer agencies and most social services. Alright then. Now we can have a real discussion.

Speaking of past presidents, does anyone find the Woodrow Wilson thing kinda bizarre? I don't know if this is limited to Glen Beck or not. There was a whole series of articles on Woodrow Wilson in this past Sunday times. I mean, look, I love history, and I do recall the high points of Woodrow Wilson's presidency but, uh, I don't know, when I think Woodrow Wilson, passion and rage are not the feelings that come to mind. The only personality aspect that I recall is the professorial thing, which was mentioned in a few of these articles, and that does explain some of the rage. I mean, we all know professors are the spawn of fucking satan.

And that reminds me of something else -- it seems it is impossible these days to have a news source or version of history that everyone more or less trusts. I mean, I'm not denying that there is some type of bias or influence in everything. But shit, every newspaper is either liberal or conservative? So nothing that a liberal reads can be trusted by a conservative, and vice versa? That's fucking sad. If anyone saw Jesus Camp (I didn't care for it, but that's another story), there was a homeschooling mom teaching her kid that scientists can't really be trusted and global warming and evolution are not based on fact, etc. How sad is that we can't even agree on basic facts? Every scientist is a fucking liberal now? Oy vey.

Yeah, Woody a) doesn't evoke that sort of teabagger rage that you'd expect. b) he was an idealist in the world arena, crusading for the League of Nations as the only viable way for an interconnected world to get along. A lot of teabaggers want to pull out of the U.N. Wilson did have some racist issues, so that fits with some of those committing tea party rallies.

I have never been able to gird myself for Jesus Camp. I need to drink first.

 

[JMohegan]

A whole lot of people still believe in supply-side economics.

Notwithstanding all evidence to the contrary.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Another way to describe the Tea Party attitude: "It's only socialism when the money goes to someone I don't like."

That's why the only social-democrat states that actually work are highly homogenous, like Norway. Their system probably wouldn't survive too much immigration.

 

[Netzach]

We just need to get our terms straight.

When the baggers use the word, "socialist" means "welfare".

They don't have a problem with social insurance, as long as it isn't going to the unproductive underclass in exchange for votes. Basic human psychology--keep it in the tribe.

Like those motherfucking children on SCHIP, lazy fuckers.

Sorry, the olds are not the vulnerables here. They have money or think they do, the babies are just fine to punish for their parents, as long as they are no longer fetal in which case they are more important than their carrier cows. Can we just get this straight? Your social worth between your first breath and your first job is -

squat.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Like those motherfucking children on SCHIP, lazy fuckers.

Sorry, the olds are not the vulnerables here. They have money or think they do, the babies are just fine to punish for their parents, as long as they are no longer fetal in which case they are more important than their carrier cows. Can we just get this straight?

Somewhat related note:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/replacing-child-protective-services.html

 

[midwestyankee]

Somewhat related note:

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/replacing-child-protective-services.html

Yikes.

What's a jack-booted thug look like, by the way? Wouldn't it be a whole lot like Rich Iott in his dress-up days up there in the Ohio SS?

 

[rosco rathbone]

Yikes.

What's a jack-booted thug look like, by the way? Wouldn't it be a whole lot like Rich Iott in his dress-up days up there in the Ohio SS?

Just like that, except liberal.

 

[Netzach]

That's why the only social-democrat states that actually work are highly homogenous, like Norway. Their system probably wouldn't survive too much immigration.

I don't know how long I buy this talking point. It's true that these states aren't highly diverse, but noplace other than India, perhaps, is as dynamically diverse as the US so it's kind of an outlier altogether and untested - we just don't know what we can't do when we haven't really tried it.

Additionally, I still think that the overall quality of life in a place like Spain, which is not on top economically, has been challenged by fascism and unemployment, has its share of economic woes in the collapse, but still - the average middle class retiree (like the one I stayed with for a month) owns a safe apartment, has her health care covered, and lives the pleasant quality of modest life that Americans are left dreaming of. Something is seriously wrong.

Also, I consider the US to be closer to a social democracy of the kind you describe with a sense of civic investment and enlightened self interest in play from 1940-1980 and I hardly think of these as the unrelenting fail years. Or that Saint Ron waved his deregulatory wand and then we all were driving Ferraris.

Ups and downs, certainly, but maybe when we're done trashing the WPA and the Great Society we'll be forced to admit some of it may have actually had some positive effect. Carter didn't fuck up because he was a liberal, Carter fucked up because we were willing to tolerate a fuck up as long as he branded himself right with Jesus and an honest boy - we were skittish.

 

[Netzach]

OMFG.

"Or private enterprise - private companies can contact the family and say, 'We heard you were hitting your kids. Can you stop that?' "



That sounds like a hell of a business opportunity."

 

[WriterDom]

I imagine most liberals on this board wouldn't blink twice on deep cuts to the military. But I'm not going to turn that and say all liberals want the military disbanded. If you asked a million of the tea party what they would cut you'd get a million answers. I think they'll vote for the person more willing to hold down spending. Which is way the establishment republicans got hammered. Now it's your turn. Enjoy it and have a nice day.

And I imagine the Wall Street broker and the union coal miner have fully funded Blue Cross. My point was the tea people have paid into the medicare system along with their employers.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Also, I consider the US to be closer to a social democracy of the kind you describe with a sense of civic investment and enlightened self interest in play from 1940-1980 and I hardly think of these as the unrelenting fail years. Or that Saint Ron waved his deregulatory wand and then we all were driving Ferraris.

Ups and downs, certainly, but maybe when we're done trashing the WPA and the Great Society we'll be forced to admit some of it may have actually had some positive effect.

Have you read Nixonland? I feel like we might be repeating a discussion we already had, so bear with me if I'm just repeating myself like an old man.

My understanding is that it was the Civil Rights legislation, the riots and all the rest of it that had a lot to do with the Great Society coming unglued.

 

[midwestyankee]

I imagine most liberals on this board wouldn't blink twice on deep cuts to the military. But I'm not going to turn that and say all liberals want the military disbanded. If you asked a million of the tea party what they would cut you'd get a million answers. I think they'll vote for the person more willing to hold down spending. Which is way the establishment republicans got hammered. Now it's your turn. Enjoy it and have a nice day.

And I imagine the Wall Street broker and the union coal miner have fully funded Blue Cross. My point was the tea people have paid into the medicare system along with their employers.

You didn't read my post carefully at all. I specifically referred to 65-year old people in my examples. In other words, two separate recipients of Medicare who paid in quite different amounts through their taxes.

I don't know why I continually try to engage you in these discussions. You refuse to read what I say and insist on fulminating misrepresentations as if they were factual.

You've learned a lot from Rush and Glen, that's for sure.

 

[Netzach]

Have you read Nixonland? I feel like we might be repeating a discussion we already had, so bear with me if I'm just repeating myself like an old man.

My understanding is that it was the Civil Rights legislation, the riots and all the rest of it that had a lot to do with the Great Society coming unglued.

No I haven't. I just see so much of my entire lifetime as responses to tricky Dick's shakepearean flaws and the reverberations against reverberations. I'm unsure we're actually over it, it's like a biblical "and Gerry begat Jimmy and Jimmy begat Ron"

 

[rosco rathbone]

. I think they'll vote for the person more willing to hold down spending.

I have a feeling they are going to be disappointed.

 

[rosco rathbone]

No I haven't. I just see so much of my entire lifetime as responses to tricky Dick's shakepearean flaws and the reverberations against reverberations. I'm unsure we're actually over it, it's like a biblical "and Lyndon begat Jimmy and Jimmy begat Ron"

It's a must-read. You'll love it.

 

[Netzach]

I have a feeling they are going to be disappointed.

That's a very logical pronouncement when the proposed in one case is a woman who made slightly over 5 grand by her own estimation. I guess she'll be using one dollar as the poverty line in DE.

I made slightly under 5 grand the year I could not actually work and had full blown flaring CD. I don't know what this allegedly healthy adult must have been doing, but if she'd been in an inpatient nuthatch it might have done her a bit of good sounds like.

The logic of the TP is like watching Marat/Sade.

 

[WriterDom]

You didn't read my post carefully at all. I specifically referred to 65-year old people in my examples. In other words, two separate recipients of Medicare who paid in quite different amounts through their taxes.

I don't know why I continually try to engage you in these discussions. You refuse to read what I say and insist on fulminating misrepresentations as if they were factual.

You've learned a lot from Rush and Glen, that's for sure.

And you don't know that everyone's taxes are set to go up if congress does nothing? I hope for God's sake you do know that and are just being obtuse on purpose.

 

[rosco rathbone]

The logic of the TP is like watching Marat/Sade.

I'm furious at the bailout heist too. I read Naked Capitalism and my head feels like it's going to pop off.

They just lose me on the tribal resentment/politics of ressentiment thing.

 

[Netzach]

I'm furious at the bailout heist too. I read Naked Capitalism and my head feels like it's going to pop off.

They just lose me on the tribal resentment/politics of ressentiment thing.

Dude, if there was a pitchfork party of people like you/me you know - the fucking corporatists vs. everyone moment...

I just don't get along with people with pitchforks when it's a one degree deviation in conversation to get to Jewish bankers from bankers. Yeah, that secret South Park gold I live off of.