U.S. politics isolation tank

[intothewoods]

Yes, it did seem different than the Onion I know and love. I read an article last year about the impact of Twitter on comedy, and a testing ground for stand up. If you follow comedians' tweets, you know that half of the stuff is dross. It's comedy vomit, and 99 percent of it won't be heard from again.

I'm guessing calling nine-year olds cunts is probably off the table.

That's what comedians do - spew comedy vomit in order to learn their craft and/or work out a new routine. That used to be strictly in comedy clubs. Now it's also on the internet. Most of the time it won't be funny. Some of the time it's going to be stupid and offensive. Or just stupid. Sometimes jokes are funny because they play off of the worst of humanity -- I think the best comedians are shining a light on that and not feeding it. Still, I am committed to giving comedians and writers the space to try shit out without boundaries or rules. Perhaps you have to earn that goodwill, and maybe I'm okay with that. If you're someone who just spews shit without ever being self-aware or reflective, I'm less inclined to be supportive when you cross that line for the 80 millionth time.

My intolerance in this situation is really because it's the Onion. They have a large staff, so they should have someone who double checks shit. Someone to say, hey, wait a minute, this is an actual 9 year old girl who shouldn't be the target of a joke this biting.

One of my favorite bits is from Adam Corolla (a comedian I don't always love for various reasons) -- he has this thing where he bashes on Dora the Explorer. I don't think he's ever called her a cunt but he calls her other names, and I always laugh my ass off. The world of kids' tv and parenting is so precious -- I love stuff that tears right through that.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

.... I propose adding tea party representatives as a tasty meat substitute.

Ewww... spoiled meat! Are you trying to kill us all?

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

That's what comedians do - spew comedy vomit in order to learn their craft and/or work out a new routine. That used to be strictly in comedy clubs. Now it's also on the internet. Most of the time it won't be funny. Some of the time it's going to be stupid and offensive. Or just stupid. Sometimes jokes are funny because they play off of the worst of humanity -- I think the best comedians are shining a light on that and not feeding it. Still, I am committed to giving comedians and writers the space to try shit out without boundaries or rules. Perhaps you have to earn that goodwill, and maybe I'm okay with that. If you're someone who just spews shit without ever being self-aware or reflective, I'm less inclined to be supportive when you cross that line for the 80 millionth time.

My intolerance in this situation is really because it's the Onion. They have a large staff, so they should have someone who double checks shit. Someone to say, hey, wait a minute, this is an actual 9 year old girl who shouldn't be the target of a joke this biting.

This is well put. If you're playing around the edge, you're going to step over it sometimes, and that is the price of creativity. It's a net gain.

I get the feeling that some organizations that are expected to be content factories are more loose with Twitter. There's just so much time to fill. And there are fewer eyeballs seeing stuff at all levels of every media. That probably changes with every twittesode though.

I just can't stand Adam Corolla. Maybe if I heard his Dora bit.

Nah.

 

[midwestyankee]

FWIW, this also points to a rising problem for comedy writers: the prevalence of Twitter and FB in the social space means that any joke being considered for use on a topical subject has to be incredibly current and original. When something interesting happens in the world of news, there are hundreds of people trying to write jokes about it on Twitter within minutes. I've read that staff writers for late-night talk shows like Conan and the Tonight Show and such live in fear that they'll set up their host to rely on a set of jokes that, due to being developed in parallel by someone on Twitter between the taping and the broadcast of the show, will be old hat by the time people see the joke delivered via their TV.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Sorry to change the subject, but I think this could be the start of something good.

Republicans Sign Brief in Support of Gay Marriage

WASHINGTON — Dozens of prominent Republicans — including top advisers to former President George W. Bush, four former governors and two members of Congress — have signed a legal brief arguing that gay people have a constitutional right to marry, a position that amounts to a direct challenge to Speaker John A. Boehner and reflects the civil war in the party since the November election.

The document will be submitted this week to the Supreme Court in support of a suit seeking to strike down Proposition 8, a California ballot initiative barring same-sex marriage, and all similar bans. The court will hear back-to-back arguments next month in that case and another pivotal gay rights case that challenges the 1996 federal Defense of Marriage Act.​

There's a *LOT* more in the NYT article linked through the headline above.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's what comedians do - spew comedy vomit in order to learn their craft and/or work out a new routine. That used to be strictly in comedy clubs. Now it's also on the internet. Most of the time it won't be funny. Some of the time it's going to be stupid and offensive. Or just stupid. Sometimes jokes are funny because they play off of the worst of humanity -- I think the best comedians are shining a light on that and not feeding it. Still, I am committed to giving comedians and writers the space to try shit out without boundaries or rules. Perhaps you have to earn that goodwill, and maybe I'm okay with that. If you're someone who just spews shit without ever being self-aware or reflective, I'm less inclined to be supportive when you cross that line for the 80 millionth time.

I don't get that-- "no boundaries, no rules, no consequences." What part of "trying shit out" doesn't include the consequences? if these guys don't experiences the flames of crashing and burning they will crash and burn ALL the time because no one ever told them how shitty they actually are-- oh, wait a minute, I think I've found the problem.

My intolerance in this situation is really because it's the Onion. They have a large staff, so they should have someone who double checks shit. Someone to say, hey, wait a minute, this is an actual 9 year old girl who shouldn't be the target of a joke this biting.

I think... it's a joke that will always fall flat, because calling women 'cunts' is such common coin at this time. That casual dump. I think calling a baby a cunt is probably the only joke that's left at all, on that one. And I think... that a lot of people who have been bullied into pretending that they think it's an okay joke to call women cunts-- I think they protest applying it to babies because that's all they can do.

One of my favorite bits is from Adam Corolla (a comedian I don't always love for various reasons) -- he has this thing where he bashes on Dora the Explorer. I don't think he's ever called her a cunt but he calls her other names, and I always laugh my ass off. The world of kids' tv and parenting is so precious -- I love stuff that tears right through that.

Back when Lenny Bruce first said those bad words on stage, the act of saying them was genuinely powerful, risky in real ways, he put his ass on the line. Bitching about Dora the Explorer and the preciousness of current parenting is... good, I guess. But he can call Dora the Explorer a cunt and never have to think twice about consequences. IMO, that makes him a bully, not a satirist.

This is well put. If you're playing around the edge, you're going to step over it sometimes, and that is the price of creativity. It's a net gain.

In comedy, "stepping over the line" usually means stepping on someone's face. So no, not a net gain.

I get the feeling that some organizations that are expected to be content factories are more loose with Twitter. There's just so much time to fill. And there are fewer eyeballs seeing stuff at all levels of every media. That probably changes with every twittesode though.

The onion has anounced that it's changing the way it tweets.

I just can't stand Adam Corolla. Maybe if I heard his Dora bit.

Nah.

yeah... I figure if everything someone does is offensive except for that one target doesn't offend me-- then probably it should, and I need to think about why it doesn't. What am I missing?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Sorry to change the subject, but I think this could be the start of something good.

Republicans Sign Brief in Support of Gay Marriage

WASHINGTON — Dozens of prominent Republicans — including top advisers to former President George W. Bush, four former governors and two members of Congress — have signed a legal brief arguing that gay people have a constitutional right to marry, a position that amounts to a direct challenge to Speaker John A. Boehner and reflects the civil war in the party since the November election.

The document will be submitted this week to the Supreme Court in support of a suit seeking to strike down Proposition 8, a California ballot initiative barring same-sex marriage, and all similar bans. The court will hear back-to-back arguments next month in that case and another pivotal gay rights case that challenges the 1996 federal Defense of Marriage Act.​

There's a *LOT* more in the NYT article linked through the headline above.

Maybe the Republican party will take itself back from the teabaggers...

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Maybe the Republican party will take itself back from the teabaggers...

It is to hope. I *used* to consider myself a conservative, even to some degree a Republican, before the ultra-right wingnuts stole the label (conservative) and the party and bastardized them to a point where it's become difficult to understand why any thinking person would admit to membership in either group. <Sigh>

 

[intothewoods]

FWIW, this also points to a rising problem for comedy writers: the prevalence of Twitter and FB in the social space means that any joke being considered for use on a topical subject has to be incredibly current and original. When something interesting happens in the world of news, there are hundreds of people trying to write jokes about it on Twitter within minutes. I've read that staff writers for late-night talk shows like Conan and the Tonight Show and such live in fear that they'll set up their host to rely on a set of jokes that, due to being developed in parallel by someone on Twitter between the taping and the broadcast of the show, will be old hat by the time people see the joke delivered via their TV.

My heart just bleeds for the writers of Conan and the Tonight Show!

This is well put. If you're playing around the edge, you're going to step over it sometimes, and that is the price of creativity. It's a net gain.

I get the feeling that some organizations that are expected to be content factories are more loose with Twitter. There's just so much time to fill. And there are fewer eyeballs seeing stuff at all levels of every media. That probably changes with every twittesode though.

I just can't stand Adam Corolla. Maybe if I heard his Dora bit.

Nah.

I don't listen to his podcast anymore. He just doesn't evolve or grow.

I don't get that-- "no boundaries, no rules, no consequences." What part of "trying shit out" doesn't include the consequences? if these guys don't experiences the flames of crashing and burning they will crash and burn ALL the time because no one ever told them how shitty they actually are-- oh, wait a minute, I think I've found the problem.

I said no rules or boundaries, not consequences. The consequence is when it's not funny. Or when it's offensive. I don't think everyone should sit quietly when they find something offensive. I just don't like the mob thing that sometimes happens, and then the reaction of essentially scrubbing away the evidence. I would rather there be a full discussion.

And I don't see a proliferation of comedians not experiencing consequences. Most them are completely neurotic and will seek out the one person in the room not laughing and zero in on them. Over time I think those who don't grow and evolve just wither away. How well is Andrew Dice Clay doing these days?

I think... it's a joke that will always fall flat, because calling women 'cunts' is such common coin at this time. That casual dump. I think calling a baby a cunt is probably the only joke that's left at all, on that one. And I think... that a lot of people who have been bullied into pretending that they think it's an okay joke to call women cunts-- I think they protest applying it to babies because that's all they can do.

The joke can't be based on the premise that it's ok to call a woman a cunt. Look, it's not like I welcome a cunt joke or anything. I'm just not willing to rule out the word.

Back when Lenny Bruce first said those bad words on stage, the act of saying them was genuinely powerful, risky in real ways, he put his ass on the line. Bitching about Dora the Explorer and the preciousness of current parenting is... good, I guess. But he can call Dora the Explorer a cunt and never have to think twice about consequences. IMO, that makes him a bully, not a satirist.
In comedy, "stepping over the line" usually means stepping on someone's face. So no, not a net gain. The onion has anounced that it's changing the way it tweets. yeah... I figure if everything someone does is offensive except for that one target doesn't offend me-- then probably it should, and I need to think about why it doesn't. What am I missing?

I'm not into comics who offend everyone all the time. If there's no evolution or change, it gets boring. But I don't think that is most comedians who are even moderately successful. There is usually some self-examination going on.

 

[Stella_Omega]

My heart just bleeds for the writers of Conan and the Tonight Show!



I don't listen to his podcast anymore. He just doesn't evolve or grow.



I said no rules or boundaries, not consequences. The consequence is when it's not funny. Or when it's offensive. I don't think everyone should sit quietly when they find something offensive. I just don't like the mob thing that sometimes happens, and then the reaction of essentially scrubbing away the evidence. I would rather there be a full discussion.

Heh.I should have said that I have been talking to a lot of those comedians, and that IS what they expect. They really believe that an offensive joke should be tolerated because it's funny and that "funny" is an entirely objective evaluation that they have control over.

And I don't see a proliferation of comedians not experiencing consequences. Most them are completely neurotic and will seek out the one person in the room not laughing and zero in on them. Over time I think those who don't grow and evolve just wither away. How well is Andrew Dice Clay doing these days?

Glad to hear it. And yes indeed, I would hope that's so.

The joke can't be based on the premise that it's ok to call a woman a cunt. Look, it's not like I welcome a cunt joke or anything. I'm just not willing to rule out the word.

That particular joke, however-- thats the premise it was based on.

I'm not into comics who offend everyone all the time. If there's no evolution or change, it gets boring. But I don't think that is most comedians who are even moderately successful. There is usually some self-examination going on.

Until maybe it stops. because puling a paycheck can shut self-examination down real good. Peer reaction takes it's place, come on, haven't we seen it in a million artist trajectories?

 

[BiBunny]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but I still don't get what the joke was.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but I still don't get what the joke was.

I'm still not sure, either. Maybe it was intended to be ironic, that she apparently is a sweet lil thang? I'm too

 

[intothewoods]

See, I would say that the premise was that calling a woman a cunt happens but not necessarily that it's acceptable. But another issue with this joke is that it's kind of a nameless faceless person tweeting on behalf of the Onion. And also by the twentieth time I've discussed this, it's not funny no matter what.

So, what comedians are you talking to? Do you mean randoms on twitter? Legit comedians on twitter? Or people you know in real life? I'm just curious. The comics I'm into would never say they are the arbiters of funny. I mean, they feel they know funny and are funny, but they respect the audience.

I'm not quite a standup super fan or anything but I do have a longish list of people whose careers I follow. Some of them have podcasts or have been interviewed on podcasts, so I feel like I know their perspective and approach fairly well. My favorites are Margaret Cho, Sarah Silverman, Greg Fitzsimmons, Marc Maron, Dave Atell, Rob Courdry (he's a sketch guy I think though), David Cross and others I'm sure I'm forgetting.

 

[intothewoods]

So maybe I'm an idiot, but I still don't get what the joke was.

I'm still not sure, either. Maybe it was intended to be ironic, that she apparently is a sweet lil thang? I'm too

The joke is that she's 9 and accomplished and wonderful so no one would ever call her a cunt for real. Yes, it's ironic.

I mean, you guys get what the joke was, right? You just don't think it's funny? I didn't see it until after the brouhaha but at this point I certainly wouldn't think it's funny! Way too much discussion.

 

[Stella_Omega]

As I always do, i talk to faceless people who express strong opinons/reactions/beliefs/Whatever. Via tweets, disqus, newspaper forums, wherever they happen to be. Kind the way I do here.

Are they Name Comedians? I doubt it, but they sure do want to be named comedians. It's the Great Unwashed of the greenrooms. As such, these guys express an attitude that they've picked up from somewhere.

Th premise of the joke is that *the right person* can call a woman a cunt because really, we all know better, so we only do it for the irony. So how far can we take it? This little girl? Oops, guess not.

Also known as Hipster doucheism.

 

[BiBunny]

The joke is that she's 9 and accomplished and wonderful so no one would ever call her a cunt for real. Yes, it's ironic.

I mean, you guys get what the joke was, right? You just don't think it's funny? I didn't see it until after the brouhaha but at this point I certainly wouldn't think it's funny! Way too much discussion.

No, I really didn't get it. I don't really get how it was supposed to be a joke, either, but meta stuff and faux-irony are confusing to me. I expect jokes to have a punchline.

Also known as Hipster doucheism.

That explains it all.

 

[intothewoods]

As I always do, i talk to faceless people who express strong opinons/reactions/beliefs/Whatever. Via tweets, disqus, newspaper forums, wherever they happen to be. Kind the way I do here.

Are they Name Comedians? I doubt it, but they sure do want to be named comedians. It's the Great Unwashed of the greenrooms. As such, these guys express an attitude that they've picked up from somewhere.

Th premise of the joke is that *the right person* can call a woman a cunt because really, we all know better, so we only do it for the irony. So how far can we take it? This little girl? Oops, guess not.

Also known as Hipster doucheism.

Ah, okay. Well, I hate a douche. Wait, why is douche okay??? Ha ha. I'm officially too tired to discuss this anymore.

Well, the whole like ironic hipster comedian thing is kind of a category. Actually, Greg Fitzsimmons talks about those guys and how it's always like - McDonald's sells salads. Really? Or...beer in a can. Really?

I get that in your certain circle of friends, you might all know better. But you have to push everything farther. Like there's a huge laziness to the ironic hipster jokes.

From my world of performers -- not famous people but locals, my real world -- I would say that if you are going to take me somewhere risky, I need to know that you've got this and I'm safe in your hands. Not safe as in comfortable. Safe as in you are in control and you've got distance, intelligence, awareness of self and others...that kind of thing...necessary to take me on the journey.

 

[Stella_Omega]

10 Phrases Progressives Need To Ditch (And What We Can Say Instead)

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/02/24/10-phrases-progressives-need-to-ditch/

(1). Big Business: (Also referred to as: Corporate America; Multinationals; Corporate Interests) When we use any of these words, we automatically sound pie-in-the-sky liberal. People think, “what’s wrong with that?” After all, they’d like their own businesses to get “big” and have no negative associations with the words “corporate” or “multinational” — which actually sound kind of exciting and worldly. Instead, try: Unelected Government. This puts them in their proper context as unelected entities with unprecedented powers, whose actions have immense impact on our lives, and which we are powerless to hold accountable.

(2). Entitlements: I keep hearing reporters from National Public Radio and other liberal news outlets use the word “entitlements” and it makes me froth at the mouth. They’re not “entitlements” — which sounds like something a bunch of spoiled, lazy, undeserving people irrationally think they should get for nothing. Instead, try: Earned Benefits. This term not only sounds better for the progressive cause, it’s also more accurate. Programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment are all forms of insurance that we pay into all of our working lives — via a percentage of our income — and then collect from when the time comes.

(3). Free Market Capitalism: (Also referred to as: Capitalism, Free Markets, and Supply-Side Economics) Like “Fascism” and “Communism,” “Free Market Capitalism” is a 20th-century utopian ideal that has amply been proven an unworkable failure, and damaging to society. Instead, try: Socialized Risk, Privatized Profits. This best describes the dramatically failed experiment in unfettered capitalism, as practiced in the late 20th century and early aughts.

(4). Government Spending: (Also referred to as: Taxes, Burden, and Inconvenient) Conservatives talk about “government spending” like it’s this awful thing, but the fact is, communities across America benefit from U.S. tax dollars, especially supposedly anti-government red states, which receive way more federal tax money than they contribute. Instead, try: Investing in America. Because, that’s what our federal tax dollars do. They invest in education and infrastructure that wouldn’t prove profitable for businesses, but which still benefit society in the long-run.

(5). Gun Control: Yikes! That sounds like you want to control people, and all those “freedom loving” folks who want to bully gays and people of color into staying in their place will use that word against you. Instead, try: Gun Safety. It sounds so nice, non-coercive, and reasonable … plus, it’s true. Most of us aren’t against guns, we just want them used safely.


(6). Illegal Aliens: It’s easy to support draconian laws against people we refer to by such a scary and impersonal term as “illegal aliens.” It’s way harder to act against our neighbors, friends, the families of our children’s classmates, or the nice lady who sells those plump, fragrant tamales on the corner. Plus … are they really “illegal?” If Big Business … Ooops … I mean “Unelected Government” … didn’t want them here — for their easily-exploited, low-cost, skilled labor (yes, our neighbors from south of the border do offer specialized skills for which U.S. agribusiness refuses to fairly compensate) — they’d be gone. Instead, try: Undocumented Residents. Why not? They already do much of what we officially-recognized U.S. citizens do, plus they’re having more kids than Anglos are. Seems like immigration provides an ideal way for us to avoid the demographics crisis hitting Western Europe and Japan.

(7). Pro-Life: Ugh. They are NOT pro-life. Once a child takes its first breath, these supposed conservative “pro-lifers” couldn’t care less about the quality of life for the child or mother. Let’s call them by their true name for once. Instead, try: Anti-Choice. Because, that’s what they really are about. They don’t care about “life.” They only seek to deny choices to women. Not just the choice of whether or not to have a child, but whether a woman can — like a man — embrace her full sexuality without having to worry about pregnancy, and whether she can make related choices about her body, her career, and when to have children, as men always have.

(8). Right-To-Work: Who came up with the phrase “right-to-work” ANYway? It’s total B.S. and doesn’t give you the right to do anything, unless you want to reject unions and earn less money than you would in a pro-union shop. In “right-to-work” states, non-union workers in union shops can decline paying union dues. Which sounds fair, but is not, because union shops pay better wages to their employees, and hence should receive dues accordingly. Instead, try: Anti-Union: It’s far more accurate, and — as unions increasingly gain favor — will make conservatives look bad. Because “right-to-work” really does mean: Right to choose amongst sucky wages and benefits packages. Several readers have also suggested: Right-To-Fire (without just cause).

(9). The Environment: When people talk about “the environment,” they often sound annoyingly self-righteous, as if lecturing people with dubious hygiene practices. Unfortunately, you can’t count on people to make environmentally friendly choices — especially when people are struggling financially and these choices cost significantly more. Instead, try: Shared Resources. That makes way more sense. We may not care about some factory dumping crap into the ocean, but we dang-well care about our neighbors up the river not properly maintaining their septic tank.

(10). Welfare: When conservatives talk about “welfare,” they make it sound like this pit people wallow in forever, rather than a source of help that’s available when we need it – and that we pay for through our taxes. The majority of us need help at one time or another. Instead, try: Social Safety Net: When people think of a safety net, they’re more likely to think of a protection of last-resort, and one that they can instantly bounce out of like circus acrobats. And if we continue to grow the middle class — instead of cutting taxes for the rich and allowing companies to pay sub-living wages — perhaps the latter will be true again.

Special bonus 11th Phrase:

(11). Homophobic: People who oppose equal rights for gays, lesbians, and gender atypical individuals are not “afraid,” as the “phobic” suffix implies. They are mean, bigoted @ssholes. Instead, try: Anti-Gay.

 

[midwestyankee]

10 Phrases Progressives Need To Ditch (And What We Can Say Instead)

I agree that we have a language problem. I have a brother who is borderline Tea Party so I tried to imagine how he would respond to my using each of these words or phrases. And the result was pretty predictable: the language of liberal politics can be a hindrance to communication.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I agree that we have a language problem. I have a brother who is borderline Tea Party so I tried to imagine how he would respond to my using each of these words or phrases. And the result was pretty predictable: the language of liberal politics can be a hindrance to communication.

I refuse to call anti-choice people "Pro life."

Some of these suggestions will work, I think-- some of them will be a more difficult sell.

 

[midwestyankee]

I refuse to call anti-choice people "Pro life."

Some of these suggestions will work, I think-- some of them will be a more difficult sell.

I think they'll all be difficult to sell to the average progressive commentator. A few of them will be more effective than others if used, though.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think they'll all be difficult to sell to the average progressive commentator. A few of them will be more effective than others if used, though.

Actually, I meant 'sell to a tea party mind"
Those progressives used to call themselves liberals. So there's a possibility of flex, among those people at least.

Personally, I plan to use them even though I am not a big time pundit.

 

[midwestyankee]

Actually, I meant 'sell to a tea party mind"
Those progressives used to call themselves liberals. So there's a possibility of flex, among those people at least.

Personally, I plan to use them even though I am not a big time pundit.

Makes sense to me.

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Watching the W.H. Correspondents Dinner, and it is hilarious.

If you're a political nerd, check it out.

Twitter: #nerdprom. Gotta love that!

 

[DeepGreenEyes]

Obama:

"Take the sequester. The Republicans fell in love with this thing, and now they can't stop talking about how much they hate it.



It's like we're trapped in a Taylor Swift album."