Where Are We?

[Mac98]

So what's the solution?

You sit around while waiting for everyone else to mobilise?

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of that, but that is a pretty good solution. The solution is for people to start looking out for each other and start pushing in the same direction. It probably won't happen any time soon, but it's foolish to say it's impossible. Nothing's impossible. The only thing in our way is our selfish mentality and defeatest attitude. Eliminate that, and you've got something going.

You shouldn't have to think twice about helping. If you want to help then help. If you don't then don't but don't use other people as an excuse not to.

Inspiring just one person to take time out of their day and help someone less fortunate then them is still something to be proud of.

Sure. There's no harm in it. It's still a great thing. However, for me, it's never enough. I'll never be satisfied until everyone is pitching in. Maybe it's cuz I have faith that it can happen. Maybe not in my lifetime, but I know it's possible and it sadens me incredibly to see how powerless we all are to do anything on our own and how unwilling we are to reach out together.

 

[toshiskitten]

Hmmm... I hadn't thought of that, but that is a pretty good solution. The solution is for people to start looking out for each other and start pushing in the same direction. It probably won't happen any time soon, but it's foolish to say it's impossible. Nothing's impossible. The only thing in our way is our selfish mentality and defeatest attitude. Eliminate that, and you've got something going.




Sure. There's no harm in it. It's still a great thing. However, for me, it's never enough. I'll never be satisfied until everyone is pitching in. Maybe it's cuz I have faith that it can happen. Maybe not in my lifetime, but I know it's possible and it sadens me incredibly to see how powerless we all are to do anything on our own and how unwilling we are to reach out together.

Really? I disagree that we are all powerless to do anything on our own. You want to the world to change but you don't want to do anything to help until other people start. That's not being powerless that's laziness.

 

[bailadora]

The solution is for people to start looking out for each other and start pushing in the same direction.

Forgive me if you've mentioned this before, but you keep throwing out this nebulous concept of everyone pushing in the same direction, but you've yet to define what that looks like. It seems to me that before everyone can go the same way, they'd all have to agree it was the right course of action. On a global scale, who gets to determine who is "right" and who is "wrong"? I am in no way trivializing the problems of other countries, but when you suggest that "we" go in and fix things in other countries, I have to wonder if you are not looking at things from a biased perspective. Has it ever occurred to you that some cultures/countries don't want Western "help" because there is sometimes a lack of respect/understanding for cultural values/traditions/lifestyles that are in place? But no, we're Western society, we're more "advanced" and we "know better", and try to make them "just like us".

It's easy to say, "Everyone needs to join together" when it's all just some nebulous statement, but it's harder to do because the actual planning and implementation take much, much, much more time.

 

[Mac98]

Really? I disagree that we are all powerless to do anything on our own. You want to the world to change but you don't want to do anything to help until other people start. That's not being powerless that's laziness.

It's not laziness. I've said before that we can all do our little things, but it won't ever change the world turns until we start pushing in the same direction together. You'll change a few lives on your own. Heck, if you're good at it and lucky enough, you may even affect thousands of lives. But together, we can change billions.

Forgive me if you've mentioned this before, but you keep throwing out this nebulous concept of everyone pushing in the same direction, but you've yet to define what that looks like. It seems to me that before everyone can go the same way, they'd all have to agree it was the right course of action. On a global scale, who gets to determine who is "right" and who is "wrong"? I am in no way trivializing the problems of other countries, but when you suggest that "we" go in and fix things in other countries, I have to wonder if you are not looking at things from a biased perspective. Has it ever occurred to you that some cultures/countries don't want Western "help" because there is sometimes a lack of respect/understanding for cultural values/traditions/lifestyles that are in place? But no, we're Western society, we're more "advanced" and we "know better", and try to make them "just like us".

It's easy to say, "Everyone needs to join together" when it's all just some nebulous statement, but it's harder to do because the actual planning and implementation take much, much, much more time.

I'm not pushing for a better system. I'm not educated enough to do so. However, using renewable, environment-friendly and more efficient natural ressources would come into play. An educational, health and monetary system "upgraded", if you will, based on actually WANTING to help people. I wouldn't go into a Tibetan temple and force them to comply to a Western style of living. I'd live and let live, just as long as no one is brought down by it.

We have the potential to be much, MUCH more advanced than we are. In pretty much every aspect.

...I'm just too tired to talk about it right now. My vocab is limited and my thoughts come in spurts.

 

[toshiskitten]

It is laziness when you won't do anything because no one else will. That is basically what you said before. If you feel that you are powerless to help change anything then you will never accomplish a thing.

And who is we? Are you talking about just the United States or the entire world?

 

[Cattypuss]

Oh for fuck's sake. This is rampant hypocrisy.

I can think of nothing more convenient than sitting around doing NOTHING and feeling righteous about it and blaming it on everyone ELSE.

"I won't help until everyone else starts pushing together"?

For fuck's sake! It's like you have a part of your brain missing.

 

[Mac98]

And who is we? Are you talking about just the United States or the entire world?

The United States wouldn't be enough. Ultimately, it'll take everyone. By "we" I mean the human race.

For fuck's sake! It's like you have a part of your brain missing.

Well DUH! Have you not been following this thread at all?

What I find funny, though, is that through all this, I don't think I've disrespected anyone. It's crazy how much differing opinions can stir up so much aggression and resistance.

 

[Cattypuss]

What I find funny, though, is that through all this, I don't think I've disrespected anyone. It's crazy how much differing opinions can stir up so much aggression and resistance.

Sure about that, are ya?

Let's see - just one example of the kind of attitude you've displayed in this thread:

Your beliefs are ridiculous and incoherent

ooh and another -

Until people start understanding that there's more to life than themselves

I don't need to go on. Those are just two examples from the first half of the first page of this thread.

You sit there accusing everyone else of not being good enough and then you get all shirty when we point out your hypocrisy.

 

[Mac98]

I don't need to go on. Those are just two examples from the first half of the first page of this thread.

You sit there accusing everyone else of not being good enough and then you get all shirty when we point out your hypocrisy.

I never said I was better than anyone else nor have I called them stupid for expressing their opinions. Our beliefs are ridiculous because in the end, we know nothing for sure. You want to murder a large amount of people in the name of your God? Well, guess what! Odds are that your idea of "God" is completely inaccurate because the fact is that you have no idea as to what comes next. That's just an example of why our beliefs are irrational. Some people feel life is all about how successful you are during your time here. Well, sorry to break it to all of you who believe this, but you don't take the material things with you when you die. Does that clarify things for you? If it does, please explain to me how it's degrading and condescending?

Also, I'm not too sure what "shirty" means, but again. I've never pointed the finger without pointing it back at myself. I think this is something all of you seem to repeatedly miss.

 

[Cattypuss]

"shirty" means offended/indignant. I guess it must be British English.

 

[Cattypuss]

Mac, it must just be that your anger is clouding your ability to see clearly here.

A very wise person once said that anger tends to be a secondary emotion - i.e. an emotion we feel because we are too afraid to feel the emotion underlying it - and that emotion is very often the emotion of feeling hurt.

What or who has hurt you, Mac?

 

[Mac98]

"shirty" means offended/indignant. I guess it must be British English.

I'll add it to my vocab, then! *thumbs up*

And I can't say I'm much offended by your opinions. Baffled, at times. Surprised. But not offended. I don't take much of it to heart (that's a lie. I am quite passionate about this subject)... I should say I take some and leave some because as much as I disagree with some of your opinions, I understand that they are *just* opinions and you're all entitled to it as much as I am to mine.

That doesn't mean I won't try and prove my point when y'all try to prove yours and that doesn't mean I find it hard to accept that no one else seems to think that peace and unity is better than what we have now. And I'm baffled when I hear it being called "Drug-induced horse shit". Comments like that usually mean the person is violently or passionately opposed to the idea.

 

[Cattypuss]

I find it hard to accept that no one else seems to think that peace and unity is better than what we have now..

You keep misunderstanding this.

We believe that peace and unity are better than what we have now. We're also realists. And we would rather help people now than sit around telling everyone else that they need to act.

 

[satindesire]

You keep misunderstanding this.

We believe that peace and unity are better than what we have now. We're also realists. And we would rather help people now than sit around telling everyone else that they need to act.

Bingo.

It's like Barbara Streisand telling people to turn their lights off to save electricity while she lives in a fucking multimillion dollar mansion that isn't in the LEAST green or energy efficient.

 

[Mac98]

You keep misunderstanding this.

We believe that peace and unity are better than what we have now. We're also realists. And we would rather help people now than sit around telling everyone else that they need to act.

Is "Realists" just not an excuse to disregard any possibility to peace being reality?

Bingo.

It's like Barbara Streisand telling people to turn their lights off to save electricity while she lives in a fucking multimillion dollar mansion that isn't in the LEAST green or energy efficient.

Or Al Gore, for that matter.

 

[Cattypuss]

Is "Realists" just not an excuse to disregard any possibility to peace being reality?

Nope. It means we work for our socio-political ideals WHILST ALSO HELPING OTHERS IN THE HERE AND NOW.

Note - we work for our socio political ideals (rather than bitching about how they're not happening)

And note - we also help others in the here and now (rather than finding excuses not to).

Or Al Gore, for that matter.

Highly hypocritical, isn't it? And it's a direct analogy to what you're doing in this thread.

 

[satindesire]

Is "Realists" just not an excuse to disregard any possibility to peace being reality?

Now, that's underhanded, Mac. You can sit here all day and think you're the only one who's making sense here but the consensus in this thread is that your anger has totally clouded your ability to think straight and when THAT many people tell you the same thing, you really -should- listen to them.

It's realistic to want everyone on the planet to live this happy utopian communist ideal where everyone works and helps and everyone has equal amounts of everything, but here's another thing that's realistic.

Humans are self interested people, as a whole. And plenty of people would rather live off of the kindness of other people than do their own work.

I don't know a single person that would be content with working harder at something and earn the same as someone who doesn't work, or works less than them. I don't know a single person who would be okay with putting themselves through 6-8 years of school for a degree, get a difficult or dangerous or emotionally draining job, and be okay with earning the same or less than a person who didn't graduate high school and was flipping burgers part time.

We want to earn what we feel our work has entitled us to. That doesn't mean we won't help people who genuinely need help due to circumstances that are beyond their control, but I get the feeling you're implying that the only way to help EVERYONE adequately is to live in some sort of society where everyone has equal everything no matter how much time/effort they put into being a responsible adult.

Here's a good example. My best friend got divorced from an abusive man, and needed my help moving out of the house quickly before he came back into town. She was afraid of him and really needed to get out of there quickly. So my husband and I, and my parents, went to the house they were living in and cracked down and packed up her entire possessions in two days.

We put in work for someone who deserved our help, because she was in a situation that was possibly detrimental to her health, and it was a situation that was beyond her control.

Now, about six months after that happened, one of my family members got into another car wreck and lost his job due to being intoxicated. That was his SIXTH DUI, he'd had his license taken away years ago, and had been in and out of rehab for his addiction. I stopped talking to him about a year ago due to being fed up with how stupid he was being. He recently called us to talk to my husband and started bragging about how he'd given up alcohol finally, but was smoking pot on a daily basis...basically giving up one addiction for another. With his history of irresponsible behavior while under the influence, we decided to continue blacklisting him from our lives. He had asked us to help him move so he could be closer to a job he had found that wouldn't test him for drugs, but we refused. It would have taken us just as much time to help him move, but we weren't about to be enablers.

Some people are responsible adults who deserve help. Some people get themselves into their own stupid situations out of being lazy, weak-spirited fools and in my opinion, they can -rot-.

No, that's not very humane of me, but it -is- human. And I won't lie about it.

Or Al Gore, for that matter.

Don't even get me started on that asshole.

 

[NippleMuncher]

I said it once, I'll say it again ...

You guys are just egging him on and getting pissed off for your efforts, which is EXACTLY what he wants and needs.

 

[Cattypuss]

Now, that's underhanded, Mac. You can sit here all day and think you're the only one who's making sense here but the consensus in this thread is that your anger has totally clouded your ability to think straight and when THAT many people tell you the same thing, you really -should- listen to them.

It's realistic to want everyone on the planet to live this happy utopian communist ideal where everyone works and helps and everyone has equal amounts of everything, but here's another thing that's realistic.

Humans are self interested people, as a whole. And plenty of people would rather live off of the kindness of other people than do their own work.

I don't know a single person that would be content with working harder at something and earn the same as someone who doesn't work, or works less than them. I don't know a single person who would be okay with putting themselves through 6-8 years of school for a degree, get a difficult or dangerous or emotionally draining job, and be okay with earning the same or less than a person who didn't graduate high school and was flipping burgers part time.

We want to earn what we feel our work has entitled us to. That doesn't mean we won't help people who genuinely need help due to circumstances that are beyond their control, but I get the feeling you're implying that the only way to help EVERYONE adequately is to live in some sort of society where everyone has equal everything no matter how much time/effort they put into being a responsible adult.

Here's a good example. My best friend got divorced from an abusive man, and needed my help moving out of the house quickly before he came back into town. She was afraid of him and really needed to get out of there quickly. So my husband and I, and my parents, went to the house they were living in and cracked down and packed up her entire possessions in two days.

We put in work for someone who deserved our help, because she was in a situation that was possibly detrimental to her health, and it was a situation that was beyond her control.

Now, about six months after that happened, one of my family members got into another car wreck and lost his job due to being intoxicated. That was his SIXTH DUI, he'd had his license taken away years ago, and had been in and out of rehab for his addiction. I stopped talking to him about a year ago due to being fed up with how stupid he was being. He recently called us to talk to my husband and started bragging about how he'd given up alcohol finally, but was smoking pot on a daily basis...basically giving up one addiction for another. With his history of irresponsible behavior while under the influence, we decided to continue blacklisting him from our lives. He had asked us to help him move so he could be closer to a job he had found that wouldn't test him for drugs, but we refused. It would have taken us just as much time to help him move, but we weren't about to be enablers.

Some people are responsible adults who deserve help. Some people get themselves into their own stupid situations out of being lazy, weak-spirited fools and in my opinion, they can -rot-.

No, that's not very humane of me, but it -is- human. And I won't lie about it.:

Actually Satin, we all differ on our views on this sort of thing (e.g. I'm a pacifist socialist and don't recognise the concept of "deserving poor" vs "undeserving poor"). But that was not my point.

My point was that grown-ups work for the world they want (rather than bitching about how the world isn't what they want it to be) AND, while working for those larger ideals, also help out people in the here and now (rather than using excuses).

 

[Cattypuss]

Nipple muncher, you speak sense.

I'm gonna zip it now

 

[satindesire]

Actually Satin, we all differ on our views on this sort of thing (e.g. I'm a pacifist socialist and don't recognise the concept of "deserving poor" vs "undeserving poor"). But that was not my point.

My point was that grown-ups work for the world they want (rather than bitching about how the world isn't what they want it to be) AND, while working for those larger ideals, also help out people in the here and now (rather than using excuses).

I understand everyone will work towards the ideals they want to. I'm not saying everyone should or does have the same POV as me, or the same opinions about poverty or people in need.

What I am saying is I disagree with what I'm reading in Mac's argument.

You guys are just egging him on and getting pissed off for your efforts, which is EXACTLY what he wants and needs.

*sighs* Dammit. You're right, of course. But DAMMIT.

 

[Mac98]

Nope. It means we work for our socio-political ideals WHILST ALSO HELPING OTHERS IN THE HERE AND NOW.

Note - we work for our socio political ideals (rather than bitching about how they're not happening)

And note - we also help others in the here and now (rather than finding excuses not to).



Highly hypocritical, isn't it? And it's a direct analogy to what you're doing in this thread.

It may have meant to be one, but the thing is that in the end, I've never said I'll never do anything to help the people I can. In my circle of friends (or family members, or whatever) I'm always available to help if need be. However, I find it draining to help people who take advantage of it and/or be the only one helping out. I mean this on a small scale (for example: I find it sad that I'm the only one helping to fix my friend's roof after water dammage was done to it. I don't know much about fixing roofs, but I still make a point to be there).

I can't say I've ever gone down to Nigeria to help out the homeless or the orphans. I can't say I've ever flown down to Haiti to try and find bodies or rebuild houses. But I do help a bit. I'm not a total waste of space. From what you've read on this thread, I hope you didn't go ahead and make the assumption that I sit around all day never lifting a finger for anyone. But to me, it's not enough. I can help out in my community but when I look at the bigger picture, or the large scale, it changes nothing.

Now, that's underhanded, Mac. You can sit here all day and think you're the only one who's making sense here but the consensus in this thread is that your anger has totally clouded your ability to think straight and when THAT many people tell you the same thing, you really -should- listen to them.

It's realistic to want everyone on the planet to live this happy utopian communist ideal where everyone works and helps and everyone has equal amounts of everything, but here's another thing that's realistic.

Humans are self interested people, as a whole. And plenty of people would rather live off of the kindness of other people than do their own work.

I don't know a single person that would be content with working harder at something and earn the same as someone who doesn't work, or works less than them. I don't know a single person who would be okay with putting themselves through 6-8 years of school for a degree, get a difficult or dangerous or emotionally draining job, and be okay with earning the same or less than a person who didn't graduate high school and was flipping burgers part time.

We want to earn what we feel our work has entitled us to. That doesn't mean we won't help people who genuinely need help due to circumstances that are beyond their control, but I get the feeling you're implying that the only way to help EVERYONE adequately is to live in some sort of society where everyone has equal everything no matter how much time/effort they put into being a responsible adult.

Here's a good example. My best friend got divorced from an abusive man, and needed my help moving out of the house quickly before he came back into town. She was afraid of him and really needed to get out of there quickly. So my husband and I, and my parents, went to the house they were living in and cracked down and packed up her entire possessions in two days.

We put in work for someone who deserved our help, because she was in a situation that was possibly detrimental to her health, and it was a situation that was beyond her control.

Now, about six months after that happened, one of my family members got into another car wreck and lost his job due to being intoxicated. That was his SIXTH DUI, he'd had his license taken away years ago, and had been in and out of rehab for his addiction. I stopped talking to him about a year ago due to being fed up with how stupid he was being. He recently called us to talk to my husband and started bragging about how he'd given up alcohol finally, but was smoking pot on a daily basis...basically giving up one addiction for another. With his history of irresponsible behavior while under the influence, we decided to continue blacklisting him from our lives. He had asked us to help him move so he could be closer to a job he had found that wouldn't test him for drugs, but we refused. It would have taken us just as much time to help him move, but we weren't about to be enablers.

Some people are responsible adults who deserve help. Some people get themselves into their own stupid situations out of being lazy, weak-spirited fools and in my opinion, they can -rot-.

No, that's not very humane of me, but it -is- human. And I won't lie about it.




Don't even get me started on that asshole.

To what I highlited in BOLD:

Woah! I never talked about a communist system. In fact I stated previously that it's a system that will innevitably fall into corruption and, in the end, fail. When I mean equal, I mean equal amounts of food, health care, education... not money or land.

That being said, our educational systems are majorly flawed. Take this from a kid who graduated from HS not too long ago and who's been in and out of college for the past 3 years. Our educational system based on A-B-C-D with useless classes is really turning into a joke. MANY geniuses are kicked out of school for never making it past grade 9 or 10. The rating system is NOT fitting for everyone and that's incredibly sad. Same thing goes for college (though I can't say this about University, since it's a more specialized program. I honestly don't know enough about it). So in terms of going to school for 6 to 8 years and making the same as the burger flipper, I would hope that in a better world, you wouldn't have to suffer through 6 to 8 years of school and money distribution would not be split into "a lot" and "very little".

Work shouldn't be draining, either. In my opinion, there's a way to clear out much of the stress and psychological battery many people go through which ultimately detiorates their health.

The system itself would have to change because it's outdated. The monetary system is destined to fail and we're only tossing the dust under the rug to buy time (because heck, in 70-80 years, none of us will be here anyways). Everything would have to change. Positions of power will have to be improved, voting systems, everything. The only reason we're still stuck in this vicious circle is because it's easier to control and maintain power over people.

As for your helping friends... I think that's the way it should be. However, I think everyone deserves a second chance just as long as they don't repeat the same habbits as your black-listed friend seems to do. It's never wrong to help people in need, just as long as they're not pulling you down afterwards to lift themselves back up. EVERYONE gets themselves into stupid situations. It's part of life. I do it and so does everyone else. That doesn't mean we don't deserve help if we've learned from it. But heck, I'm not here to give you a lecture. That's just how I see it.

 

[culloden]

"I can help out in my community but when I look at the bigger picture, or the large scale, it changes nothing."

Sure it does. Because you're only one piece of the large scale. Your efforts, added to the efforts of others, add up.

"Woah! I never talked about a communist system. In fact I stated previously that it's a system that will innevitably fall into corruption and, in the end, fail. When I mean equal, I mean equal amounts of food, health care, education... not money or land."

So, just a semi-communist system.

" So in terms of going to school for 6 to 8 years and making the same as the burger flipper, I would hope that in a better world, you wouldn't have to suffer through 6 to 8 years of school and money distribution would not be split into "a lot" and "very little"."

Mac, some things take 6 or 8 years of suffering to master. People either bother to do that out of passion, or because they realize the rest of us have reached a de facto consensus to pay them more money for their 6 or 8 years of suffering than we pay a burger flipper. Which is not to criticize burger flippers, but merely to point out that supply and demand is what determines our economic value. Economic valuation is probably the purest form of democracy going. Maybe one day when you're older you'll understand this.

"Work shouldn't be draining, either."

Yeah, well, as my grandmother said, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

"The monetary system is destined to fail and we're only tossing the dust under the rug to buy time..."

I'd like to see you support this with facts. It sounds like a sound bite.


Man, you're young and idealistic and maybe a little scared of adulthood. Lots of us felt that way at your age. The world is large. Relax. Just find your place in it and don't worry so much about everyone else.

In a geological time scale, none of this matters.

 

[Mac98]

"I can help out in my community but when I look at the bigger picture, or the large scale, it changes nothing."

Sure it does. Because you're only one piece of the large scale. Your efforts, added to the efforts of others, add up.

"Woah! I never talked about a communist system. In fact I stated previously that it's a system that will innevitably fall into corruption and, in the end, fail. When I mean equal, I mean equal amounts of food, health care, education... not money or land."

So, just a semi-communist system.

" So in terms of going to school for 6 to 8 years and making the same as the burger flipper, I would hope that in a better world, you wouldn't have to suffer through 6 to 8 years of school and money distribution would not be split into "a lot" and "very little"."

Mac, some things take 6 or 8 years of suffering to master. People either bother to do that out of passion, or because they realize the rest of us have reached a de facto consensus to pay them more money for their 6 or 8 years of suffering than we pay a burger flipper. Which is not to criticize burger flippers, but merely to point out that supply and demand is what determines our economic value. Economic valuation is probably the purest form of democracy going. Maybe one day when you're older you'll understand this.

"Work shouldn't be draining, either."

Yeah, well, as my grandmother said, "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."

"The monetary system is destined to fail and we're only tossing the dust under the rug to buy time..."

I'd like to see you support this with facts. It sounds like a sound bite.

Man, you're young and idealistic and maybe a little scared of adulthood. Lots of us felt that way at your age. The world is large. Relax. Just find your place in it and don't worry so much about everyone else.

In a geological time scale, none of this matters.

Communism is a government control of your land and, well, pretty much everything in your life. In exchange, everybody gets equal shares of everything, the amount you get is controlled by the government... therefore corruption is MUCH too easy. There's a difference between controlling and having it available to you. There's no semi-communist about it. Communism means everything is controlled by the state and the state decides what will be available or not to you. That's boarderline dicatorship (imo) and I'm completely and totally against that. The point is to make things available for EVERYONE. Be you rich or dirt poor, you should have the same rights as everyone else.

It's not really that complicated. Every dollar printed by the Federal Reserve must be payed back with interest. Therefore there is a constant debt. This is why fluctuations are spiraling out of control. Because one day or another, the whole thing will collapse because there'll no longer be enough money to pay back. This is why the US is on its downfall and China is on its rise. This will never cease until a better, more reliable system is put in place. You don't have to search for very long before finding many alterior and hypothetically "better" monetary or trading systems. "Zeitgeist" is a good example of this, though I feel it's a little too much on the cult-side so I don't buy too much into it. There are MANY people coming up with better ways to run economy and trades. Our system here is reaching its limit and is starting to crumble under our feet.

Of course, you know all of this, though. Tell yourself that for every dollar you have, you owe 1.33$ (for example). How are you every supposed to stay wealthy for an extended period of time? In the end, all rich nations will end up falling because of this. The only one protected in this IS the Federal Reserve.

 

[Mac98]

...I'm also unsure as to what a "sound bite" is.