Write this badly and you too can sell tens of millions of books

[onehitwanda]

I guess we'll just have to assume G. R. R. Martin is the first two, then.

he went to the Robert Jordan school of constantly expanding the dramatis personae, that's for sure.

 

[Bamagan]

he went to the Robert Jordan school of constantly expanding the dramatis personae, that's for sure.

"The cast of characters is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding cast of characters." -- Oscar Wilde

 

[Rustyoznail]

In many fields, there's no correlation between being good and being successful.

 

[KeithD]

An old joke: “How do you get rich? Well, it’s simple: you just have to be passionate, hardworking, and have a lot of money to begin with!”

I think excellent connections go a long way to helping as well.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

he went to the Robert Jordan school of constantly expanding the dramatis personae, that's for sure.

But he never learned to use the dramatic tool of "smoothing the skirt"

 

[alohadave]

In many fields, there's no correlation between being good and being successful.

In my photography days, I knew a woman who was...not very good at the technical aspects. But, she knew her target audience, and networked with them. She sold a lot of work based on those connections.

 

[onehitwanda]

But he never learned to use the dramatic tool of "smoothing the skirt"

*tugs braid angrilly and crosses her arms over her breasts*

 

[intim8]

I can't really see how anyone has been hurt. She makes money, the publishing house makes money, everyone in the value chain makes money. And clearly the readers don't feel that they're being shortchanged, otherwise they wouldn't keep buying the books.

No, nobody has been hurt, especially not other writers. It doesn't work that way. I would feel shortchanged as a reader if I'd paid for it. But my wife enjoys her, so it's fine.

The point is, for anyone not sure that they're good enough, the bar - at least on the things we usually worry about - is a lot lower than we tend to think it is.

 

[KeithD]

I separate books into two piles--the professional writer and the celebrity writer (who often hasn't done the writing themselves). I read and assess professional writers on content. And, yes, I'll be critical with them. Within the last couple of days I posted an Amazon review on Anne Perry, after about fifty reads of her book, noting what I liked (she does put you in the period with pretty good writing--and her background intrigued me) and what I don't that runs through her books (she pads them out with endless repetition, her plots have holes, and the characters are raw, blunt, and belligerent in dialogue that seems off for both the period and now). I don't bother to whine about her managing to be a best-seller, though. The publishers and readers made her that. (And surprise: most best-sellers were determined beforehand by the publisher and marketed to be that.)

In the other bucket are the celebrity-tagged books. People buy and read these for a connection with the celebrity, not to add to the Pulitzer Prize-reading list. I just finished such a book, James Grissom's Follies of God, which wasn't written well, I didn't think. It rambles with little structure and it's very hard to determine who is being quoted. But I read it to understand its subject, Tennessee Williams, better and by the finish I'd gained insights into a whole lot of other people too. I don't whine about what these celebrities are getting away with on what they're getting sold.

Actually, for me, there's a third pile. I'm sent quite a few books for read/review by developing/struggling writers I know. No matter the quality of the read I'm getting (and the one I'm reading now is pretty dreadful), I'll be as supportive as I can of their writing progress short of lying platitudes. I'd do the same here at Literotica--certainly not bringing it to the discussion board--because I don't begrudge any level of success any other writer is getting with whatever they've managed to do. And I don't believe that any measure of their success is taken from what otherwise could be mine.

 

[Tomh1966]

There's more to it than smugness and sour grapes. I see nothing wrong with critiquing the writing of famous authors. It's useful to dissect and critique writing. And it's not like we're going to hurt their feelings, as we might if we did that with authors here.

One of the best examples in this category has to be E.L. James, the 50 Shades author. Her books are full of examples of "what not to do" in writing prose, but she did it anyway, probably because she didn't know better, and her books were phenomenally successful.

You don't have to be a great stylist to be a successful genre novelist. You have to be good at SOMETHING. Jackie pointed out Crichton, who I agree is a mediocre stylist but whose ideas are enjoyable and played out with meticulous detail. Even E.L. James hit on a winning formula of including elements of BDSM with a classic gothic romance. Successful novelists obviously must have admirable discipline to write and publish so steadily.

And it sold millions

So a billionaire (Odds 1 in 500K MOL)
Meets a 21 year old virgin (Odds 1 in 8)
Lets make her beautiful (1 in 10)
Likes to be spanked ( 1 in ...???)

Yeah that happened. and it sold MILLIONS. Spawned movies and more than 1 cheating wife looking for a dom.

So when people say your story sucks because it can't happen... Just tell them 50 shades of SHUT UP!

Turns out the Eat Pray Love woman was quite a narcissist and nutball.

 

[intim8]

An old joke: “How do you get rich? Well, it’s simple: you just have to be passionate, hardworking, and have a lot of money to begin with!”

That reminds me of a related joke: Whats the best way to make a million dollars in the stock market? Start with two million.

 

[intim8]

So when people say your story sucks because it can't happen... Just tell them 50 shades of SHUT UP!

A quote (can't remember the source) that I always keep in mind, something like: it's not strange at all that the characters or events in your story are extraordinary; that's why you picked that story to tell instead of all the ordinary ones.

 

[Devinter]

@intim8 - Whilst I do agree that the writing of those short sentences you've picked out is rather underwhelming, you could surely nit-pick something less than stellar even out of the most impressive of masterpieces. Or are you saying that all of these books are just endless paragraphs written like that, from beginning to end? I must confess, I don't really read that sort of literature.

'True love at first sight' also might seem rather unbelievable, because to some people, love simply doesn't work like that. Therefore, to these people, it seems totally unrealistic. However, to others, all it takes in one little feeling and they go all in - head-first into the beautiful storm. I know a multitude of couples who have been married for a great many years - some for longer than I've been on this earth - that have told me they either knew right away that they had found their person, or at least knew before the first date was over. Many then got married within a handful of weeks since their first encounter. Rather surprisingly, it seems that the success rate of this kind of relationship seems far higher than the more rational approach - although that could certainly be confirmation bias, as those couples who did know right away often tend to want to share their 'origin story' with people they come across. Still interesting though, I think.

 

[intim8]

But again, the idea of jealousy (sour grapes) frustration, raised blood pressure, or feeling like she's even potentially taking anything from me never crossed my mind when posting this. I laughed when I read it, thinking of all the hand-wringing in various writer's forums about what this is such a blatant example of.

Many of y'all here are already better than her, at least in some ways.. Getting published and getting sold is hard, but not because of Catherine Coulter, and not because you're not doing enough show-don't-tell or because your plots are contrived or whatever.

In fact, I'm starting to suspect that experience in writing erotica can do a lot for writing more mainstream dramatic fiction. There are skills developed here that more "serious" writers might have a hard time gaining.

 

[Bramblethorn]

he went to the Robert Jordan school of constantly expanding the dramatis personae, that's for sure.

He also does a lot of pruning though.

 

[intim8]

. Or are you saying that all of these books are just endless paragraphs written like that, from beginning to end?

No. Above. I pointed out several authors in the same genre/same target audience that are quite good. Her book (this is the first I've read, I think), is full of this kind of crap, and very weak storytelling to boot. Other authors in this space have similar flaws, but except for one I mentioned earlier, not to this extent.

 

[intim8]

'True love at first sight' also might seem rather unbelievable, because to some people, love simply doesn't work like that. Therefore, to these people, it seems totally unrealistic.

I think for a 40-something widower, it's rarely if ever going to work like that. But regardless, her description of it happening is comically bad, and at best reads like a high school infatuation.

And "something began to stir down deep" is such an erotica trope.

 

[KeithD]

SINCE EL James's 50 Shades has cropped up again, we might as well take another look at this. 50 Shades didn't become a best-seller because hordes of buyers/readers thought it was written well. It became a best-seller because it popped up in the publishing houses when they were looking to open up underutilized markets. The publisher made 50 Shades a best-seller., deciding to do so before it went to print. That didn't rest on anyone's claim it was written well. I was traveling, by car, around the UK the week it came out. At every rest stop I stopped at, there was a book rack holding only copies of 50 Shades. The publisher did that to make it a best-seller, El James didn't do that. She just was in the right place at the right time with the right manuscript to benefit from entirely different plans in the publishing industry. I don't begrudge her her success. I didn't buy the book. She wasn't writing in my genre. I can just smile that she benefited from it.

And guess what. I've benefited from it too. So has every other writer here.

The publishing house marketing ploy worked. It not only opened up a market for pseudo-BDSM, but it also loosened up the erotica market as a whole. Erotica has, as a whole, gained a burgeoning readership directly from 50 Shades (including, yes, the "I could write it better" belief among writers). Buyers have shown up; writers have more of an incentive to write it and more of an expectation to find an audience for it. Everyone who writes erotica should be sending her a thank-you note, not slamming her with "I could do better" criticism. Everyone writing BDSM should send her flowers.

 

[StillStunned]

The publishing house marketing ploy worked. It not only opened up a market for pseudo-BDSM, but it also loosened up the erotica market as a whole. Erotica has, as a whole, gained a burgeoning readership directly from 50 Shades (including, yes, the "I could write it better" belief among writers). Buyers have shown up; writers have more of an incentive to write it and more of an expectation to find an audience for it. Everyone who writes erotica should be sending her a thank-you note, not slamming her with "I could do better" criticism. Everyone writing BDSM should send her flowers.

Same thing with Terry Brooks. People often complain that he ripped off Tolkien (conveniently ignoring the dozens of bestsellers he's written since that are as far from LotR as you can imagine - airships and homicidal city-sized computers don't make much of an appearance in Middle-Earth) but The Sword of Shannara is the reason why there's a fantasy genre today. Lester Del Rey saw a market, chucked a book in with enough resemblance to LotR to attract the Tolkien fans, went full throttle with the marketing, and voilà!

 

[SimonDoom]

Everyone who writes erotica should be sending her a thank-you note, not slamming her with "I could do better" criticism. Everyone writing BDSM should send her flowers.

You're imposing your own false narrative again. Nobody in this thread has said this, including me, and I was the first one in the thread to mention her.

I think her prose is pretty bad, and she's a good example of a writer who has done well with no particular skill at prose. But I don't slam her or begrudge her her success. And I credit her with opening me up to certain areas of erotica I hadn't read much before. I read her books when I was getting into online dating post-divorce, and I was fascinated by how many women mentioned her book in their online profiles. It was like a semi-respectable way of indicating you had a kinky side. And I profited from the insight, for sure. So I have no hard feelings at all for E.L. James.

 

[KeithD]

You're imposing your own false narrative again. Nobody in this thread has said this, including me, and I was the first one in the thread to mention her.

I think her prose is pretty bad, and she's a good example of a writer who has done well with no particular skill at prose. But I don't slam her or begrudge her her success. And I credit her with opening me up to certain areas of erotica I hadn't read much before. I read her books when I was getting into online dating post-divorce, and I was fascinated by how many women mentioned her book in their online profiles. It was like a semi-respectable way of indicating you had a kinky side. And I profited from the insight, for sure. So I have no hard feelings at all for E.L. James.

Sure, whenever someone goes after her writing on this board, they are "it should have been me" whining. That's not a false narrative. And you haven't really been reading the thread if you didn't see that happening.

They don't see that her book (because of the publishers, not her) opened up the erotica world for their own writing--and not with her taking anything from them.

 

[StillStunned]

Sure, whenever someone goes after her writing on this board, they are "it should have been me" whining. That's not a false narrative. And you haven't really been reading the thread if you didn't see that happening.

I don't think many people here say "it should have been me." There was a thread here a while ago about monetising our writing. Pretty much everyone said, "That's too much effort for me."

We all know that talent and skill are only a tiny portion of the equation. There might be some wistful sighs, but no-one's expecting to have financial success as a writer without putting a lot more effort into it than most of us are willing to make. So no-one's jealous, or whining that it should be their books that are generating millions. At most, some wishful thinking along the lines of "if I didn't have to work my day job..."

 

[KeithD]

This isn't the first rodeo ride here on 50 Shades. The down-the-nose-looking whining has been going on here for years. Yes, it always comes out looking like personal afront sour grapes.

 

[KeithD]

This thread brings to my mind the 2022 "best-seller," State of Terrorism, by Louise Penny and Hillary Clinton. This was a guaranteed best-seller (and marketed that way, which guaranteed it would be a best-seller). An obvious best-seller because of: Louise Penny. And because of: Hillary Clinton. I think it was a bad book and I bought it anyway for specific "reasons."

I think it's a bad book because it wasn't well plotted and because of all the opportunities missed in it being a good book by combining Penny's writing and Clinton's expertise in what plausibly could be done with an intelligence world thriller. I could assess the book in these elements because it's a world I write in too with a background to be able to do so plausibly. The book was too much what it was meant to do. It was one friend, Louise Penny, offering her time/effort/skills to occupy the time and attention of another friend, Hillary Clinton, during her grieving time of losing a presidential election. I didn't see enough of the unique background skills for the two separate people going into the book. It was shallow and rather dull, maybe showing neither woman fighting for full engagement and excellence from the other.

But I bought it and gave it a read for what it really apparently was--a gift by Louise Penny to her grieving friend who needed an engaging and uplifting new sort of project to do for a couple of years.

Good storytelling and grammar aren't the only reasons to buy and read a book.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

But I bought it and gave it a read for what it really apparently was--a gift by Louise Penny to her grieving friend who needed an engaging and uplifting new sort of project to do for a couple of years.

Good storytelling and grammar aren't the only reasons to buy and read a book.

That may be true, but I certainly am not interested in reading something bad just to go, "Aww, how sweet," over something outside of the story itself. Don't waste my f'ing time with your half-assed drivel-slash-vanity project. In fact I do not care at all how or why it was written (although I may find that interesting afterwards), and I am under no illusions that anyone else does - or should - care about how hard I worked when they read my stuff. When I read, I'm having a reading experience. When I write, I'm creating a reading experience. Go read it. If you don't like it, then either our tastes don't match or I need to write better (or both).