60 days for raping a 12 year old?

[Boxlicker101]

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Originally posted by cloudy
I live in Alabama, and not quite sure where Elmore County is...(not from here originally, thank goodness)

One thing about Alabama, though....

Several years ago, a 14 year old girl who lived maybe 1/2 mile down the road from us went home sick from school. I'm not sure who brought her home, but anyway, she was home by herself that afternoon.

4 guys broke into the house with the intention of burglary, but found the girl there by herself, and did unspeakable things to her. I wish I'd known at the time it was happening......I was home (off from work), and had a twelve-guage handy.

Anyway, the guys were pretty promptly caught, but eventually got off with fairly light sentences, comparable to what's listed above.

Her father, her two uncles, and several grown, male cousins patiently waited for them to get out of jail, and then took care of "justice" themselves.

They were never prosecuted or even arrested. The whole area knew what had happened, but nobody was talking.

So, when someone like that gets off lightly in Alabama, don't be so sure they won't get what's coming to them later....chances are, they will. Lots of woods, swamps, etc., here.

Snooper took issue with this:

Don't you even wonder for one second about what you have written there? A man was convicted of an offence and served his sentence. Then, you imply, he was murdered, or at least seriously assaulted, and you agree with that?

I thought the US was intended to be a democracy, where the public has the right to elect legislators who will pass, and enforce, the laws the people want. What you describe, and appear to advocate, is not that; it is mob rule of the worst kind. The mob doesn't like what it reads in the newspapers about the sentence in a particular case, so they go out and punish the guy themselves?



This is not mob rule and it isn't lynching. It is Vigilanteism, and has a long and honorable history in the US and other places. When the legal system is corrupt or weak, it is up to the citizens to take matters into their own hands. That is not lynch law! Lynching is pushing the law out of the way and acting. Vigilanteism is acting, and seeing that justice is done, when the justice system breaks down, for some reason or other.

As for the case of the 12 year old, has anybody ever considered that the man might be innocent? This might well be a young girl with a crush on a man who fantasizes sex with him, maybe from a porn book she has read, and writes her fantasies in her diary as if they were fact. When her mother violates the girls privacy and reads the diary, she has a fit and calls the cops.

As I see it, there is no evidence against the man. There are the entries in the diary but the person who wrote them says, in court and under oath, they are all fiction and that she made them up. Maybe she did and maybe she didn't but I think he should have been acquitted for lack of evidence.

 

[SeaCat]

Being the husband of a victim of two rapes, one by a family member and one by a stranger, people often wonder at my somewhat rapid and violent response to this.
I was asked to leave the court when I commented on how this mulitple offender should be punished. I was also attacked in the local papers when they heard about my views. (He had been tried and convicted many times of the same crime. I had commented that he should be publicly castrated with something akin to a dull, rusty cheesgrater.)
I had to help put my wifes mind back together, the state didn't. I had to watch her wake up from her nightmares, I had to watch her shy away from every man who said anything to her. I was the one who changed the sheets when she pissed the bed at night. I was the one who managed through love and attention to get her past all of this, the state wasn't there, neither were the liberals who stood up for him in court and justified his rapes as his way of showing his independance.
If you rape, you should pay.

Cat

 

[cloudy]

I whole-heartedly agree. And, if the justice system won't make the offender pay, well, then, I certainly hope someone does.

Rape isn't about sex, it's about power, and sometimes about hatred of women, and the perceived power we have over men.

 

[KarenAM]

I've had too much experience with rape and attempted rape to expect myself to be reasonable about it.

Why do rapists rape? There are as many reasons as there are rapists. Some are malignant and filled with hate. Some are sociopaths who simply do what they want. Some are losers who think with their balls and don't know the meaning of the word "no". A small number are women (they just caught one of these on America's Most Wanted last week).

What they all share, though, is a contempt for others. And when found guilty in the courts, I see no good coming out of cutting them a break.

And that's as rational as I can be on the subject. Catch me when I'm irrational and the Spanish Inquisition would seem like a walk in the park in comparison.

 

[Weird Harold]

Are you seriously implying that a 12 year old child is mature enough to CONSENT to sexual intercourse?

no, I'm not implying anything.

I'm flatly stating that SOME twelve year old girls not only consent to but seek out sexual relationships. I'm also flatly stating that SOME of those twelve year old girls ARE mature enough to know exactly what they're getting into.

Age and maturity seldom have a direct relationship.

I know people over eighteen -- sometimes by a large margin -- who I don't think are mature enough to consent to eating breakfast. I also know people under age eighteen -- a couple as young as ten -- who are mature enough to meet the requirements legal emancipation.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Yes, he is. Not only that, but victimize a poor man with a full-scale
seduction. I was too tired to list all the reasons that isn't the case.

I respect his unique perspective on the subject as a middle-aged man, however,
since both you and I have been 12 year old girls, I think we may know
whereof we speak.

I'm sorry, but "responsiveness" does not equal consent. Kids, *especially* troubled
ones, "consent" to all kinds of things that are not in their best interest. Most of them are
hungry for approval and love. The "well, they grow up quicker in the ghetto,
they're more mature, so its ok" argument offends me.

And referring to a 12 year old girl and a 26 year old man as "lovers" ascribes
an equality to the interaction that cannot be possible.

mlle

*************************************************

After reading his post again I think the low income housing where he lives is a prison. To Wierd Harold there is an organization known as C.P.S., that means Child Protective Services. If you actually witness 12 year old children CONSENTING to sexual intercouse with 26 year old men, dear God pick up the phone man.

 

[Weird Harold]

I whole-heartedly agree. And, if the justice system won't make the offender pay, well, then, I certainly hope someone does.

Rape isn't about sex, it's about power, and sometimes about hatred of women, and the perceived power we have over men.

Despite my defense of this particular sentence, I tend to agree with you, seacat, and the rabid lynch mob when it comes to forcible rape -- or rape by threat of force.

However that is NOT the case here -- according to the prosecutor, this is 'not a case of forceable rape' and there is an indication that the "victim" tried to protect her "rapist."

Both parties, victim and rapist, apparently showed a severe lack of judgement, but this case is about an arbitrary age limitation NOT rape as most people think of it.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Despite my defense of this particular sentence, I tend to agree with you, seacat, and the rabid lynch mob when it comes to forcible rape -- or rape by threat of force.

However that is NOT the case here -- according to the prosecutor, this is 'not a case of forceable rape' and there is an indication that the "victim" tried to protect her "rapist."

Both parties, victim and rapist, apparently showed a severe lack of judgement, but this case is about an arbitrary age limitation NOT rape as most people think of it.

Having sex with a 12 year old CHILD is not a severe lack of judgement, F**k legalities its immoral, forget the case and look at your argument.

 

[Weird Harold]

To Wierd Harold there is an organization known as C.P.S., that means Child Protective Services. If you actually witness 12 year old children CONSENTING to sexual intercouse with 26 year old men, dear God pick up the phone man.

If I thought there was anything harmful going on between a child and an adult of any age, I don't need a phone -- I have a gun.

Of course, that presupposes that I can actually tell the individual's age with any sort of accuracy at a glance and can tell the difference between a clingy child hugging her father and a lolita and her sugar-daddy.

Which is my whole point -- it can be hard to tell age at a glance, or even with an extended conversation.

 

[Lisa Denton]

If I thought there was anything harmful going on between a child and an adult of any age, I don't need a phone -- I have a gun.

Of course, that presupposes that I can actually tell the individual's age with any sort of accuracy at a glance and can tell the difference between a clingy child hugging her father and a lolita and her sugar-daddy.

Which is my whole point -- it can be hard to tell age at a glance, or even with an extended conversation.

Well harold, you better be careful about having extended conversations with 12 year old children who you think might be 18 year old lolitas.
Just my opinion.

 

[Weird Harold]

Having sex with a 12 year old CHILD is not a severe lack of judgement, F**k legalities its immoral, forget the case and look at your argument.

Immoral by whose standards?

There are places in the world today where this pairing would result in a wedding instead of a trial and the whole town would turn out to cheer.

A judge with a reputation for harsh sentencing saw something in this case that prompted him to be as lenient as the law allows -- I'm simply proposing the possibility that what he saw was a seduction and not a "rape." If it was the man that did the seducing, I'd expect a harsher sentence.

I think the judge considerd the fact -- which aren't in the news articles -- and judged that the man was NOT entirely at fault.

Whether you wish to believe that a twelve year old girl is capable of seducing a twenty-six year old man or not is up to you. IF she did, she showed a lack judgement but not necessarily alack of maturity or intelligence. He was thinking with the little head and that almost always means poor judgement.

I dont think either Robinson or his "victim" are particularly "mature" but for whatever reason both of them wanted the relationship and the judge's sentencing can only be an indication that he considered it a consentual relationship.

 

[Weird Harold]

Well harold, you better be careful about having extended conversations with 12 year old children who you think might be 18 year old lolitas.
Just my opinion.

I'll be 55 come Saturday -- I don't think with my dick and I don't find high-schoolers arousing.

However, at age 26, I did think with my dick a lot of the time and wouldn't have thought to ask for ID if a female was attractive and willing.

 

[Lisa Denton]

I'll be 55 come Saturday -- I don't think with my dick and I don't find high-schoolers arousing.

However, at age 26, I did think with my dick a lot of the time and wouldn't have thought to ask for ID if a female was attractive and willing.

Goodnight, some conversations are futile.

 

[Weird Harold]

Goodnight, some conversations are futile.

To true. There are a lot of people who can only see "age 12" and ignore that not all 12 yer olds are the same.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

>>Immoral by whose standards?

There are places in the world today where this pairing would result in a wedding instead of a trial and the whole town would turn out to cheer.<<

Yes, yes there are. Here's an account from one of them.

http://www.engenderhealth.org/news/in_the_news/030622.html

See, there's another reason healthy men don't fuck 12 year olds. They aren't physically
equipped for the consequences.

mlle

 

[Weird Harold]

See, there's another reason healthy men don't fuck 12 year olds. They aren't physically equipped for the consequences.

Again, you lump all 12 year olds into a single group.

Ever hear of precocious puberty? It's a rising problem in the US -- luckily, not nearly epidemic proportions yet, but by no means uncommon.

SOME 12 year olds ARE physcally equipped for the consequences AND have the sexual drive to seek out sexual partners. There is NO hint at all in th news articles that the girl in this case was physically harmed in any way. According to the prosecutor, the only reason for prosecution was the DIFFERENCE in their ages.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

A 12 year old is in 6th grade. In many districts, that's not even out of elementary school yet.

12 year olds flirt, they try their powers- yes. Everyone does. But the emotional maturity of a
girl at that point- regardless of her mental maturity and her physical maturity- is not that of a
woman. A 55 year old man should be able to realize that life experience counts for something.

Unfortunately, pedophiles present a similar defense when they molest children. i.e. "the child
initiated it" "he was looking at me seductively" "he's very mature" etc. In order to assuage their guilt
over being attracted to kids, they project certain attributes onto them. The adult perspective
turns harmless flirting into a perception of adult-style seduction. The idea of Lolita is a
creepy old man's fantasy. No more.

I would not trust a 12 year old to know when she was ready to have sex anymore than I would
trust a 55 year old man to decide which 12 year old was "mature enough". How the hell can you tell?
I don't think most of the guys in these cases stick around to see how it affects the girls in their later years.

By the way, I didn't mention it before, Harold- but your assumption that I grew up wearing a tiara
in a fucking snowglobe was kind of insulting. My mom was a single mother, immigrant, who sometimes
went without eating so that I could. My dad didn't pay child support and as we speak is dating an exchange
student a year younger than me. I started menstruating at nine, so I know all about precocious puberty.

mlle

 

[Guest]

This is one those times I can hardly bear posting but I feel I must speak up, not for myself but at least for our young girls.

Harold, I beg you to stop repeating your absurd,and baseless but for your uniquely perverse opinion, remarks about 12 year old girls. No matter how precocious in whatever area of life, or how high an intelligence, or how sexually liberally raised and educated, or hormonally charged--there is no way a female of only twelve years experience of life on earth is ready for a sexual relationship with an adult or experienced male.

Every human being is unique at 12 years (or any year), and the actual age may posit a variety of mores in other cultures (though I suggest we stick to ours), but 12 years is 12 years and normally only half of those years have been spent with a reasoning mind and awareness of self. A 12 year old girl is budding, not only into her body but into the very vestiges of who she may become in the next two to three (or more) decades.

Please get off whatever is compelling you to say it is possible for a 12 year old girl to know what she wants or does sexually. Just stop it, I beg you.

I am very angry with you but have tried to speak plainly and without rancor.

Perdita

 

[Weird Harold]

A 12 year old is in 6th grade. In many districts, that's not even out of elementary school yet.

I'd say that is true of MOST school districts. However, that's another blanket assumption -- my younger grandaughter will be in eight grade when she turns 12.

12 year olds flirt, they try their powers- yes. Everyone does. But the emotional maturity of a
girl at that point- regardless of her mental maturity and her physical maturity- is not that of a
woman. A 55 year old man should be able to realize that life experience counts for something.

I do realize that at age 55 -- I have learned a few things.

However, the person who made the choice to have sexual relations with the "victim" in this case is NOT 55. I have no real idea what HIS ability to judge the age or maturity of a female who flirts with him is. It's apparently not too great, or he's amoral enough not to care.

The point here is that our opinion of her maturity doesn't really matter -- she obviously thought she was mature enough and acted on HER perception of her maturity, just as any tweener or teanger would if they aren't given proper supervision and guidance.

The reality is that very young girls are going out looking for sex with older men for whatever reason and finding men without enough sense to think with their brains instead of their dicks.

Unfortunately, pedophiles present a similar defense when they molest children. i.e. "the child
initiated it" "he was looking at me seductively" "he's very mature" etc. In order to assuage their guilt
over being attracted to kids, they project certain attributes onto them.
...
I would not trust a 12 year old to know when she was ready to have sex anymore than I would
trust a 55 year old man to decide which 12 year old was "mature enough". How the hell can you tell?

Do you honestly think a judge with a reputation for severity would give such a light sentence to a pedophile?

I have no idea who intiated the relationship, but the Judge's actions and the prosecutor's comments suggest that THEY thought the girl bore part of the blame -- otherwise, the two news articles make no sense at all.

I am NOT advocating that 12-year-old girls be given blanket permission to consent to sex or even asserting that 12-year-olds with the intellectual and emotional maturity required are common -- I'm just asserting that SOME 12-year-olds are capable of making an informed consent.

How you can identify which is which is another matter entirely. It certainly can't be done through a short association.

Unfortunately, men in their mid-twenties sometimes don't have the "life-experience" required to be wary of young women who flirt with them and lie about age -- or they don't care about the age of a willing female.

I think this is a case of hormones over-riding brains -- on both sides -- combined with a lack of supervision and guidance by the girl's parents. There could easily be emotional deficiencies involved on both sides as well.

You are responding as if you think that I would succumb to the flirting of anything female or go actively looking for "young blood." You couldn't be more wrong.

However, I do recognise that without proper suprvision and guidance young girls and boys are prone to think they're more mature than they actually are and do inappropriate things -- like letting the "flirting and testing" go too far or actively seeking an older lover.

Unlike many people, I consider children old enough to talk to be reasonably rational human beings. When they're treated as rationl beings, they tend to BE rational beings -- when they're lumped into a single classification and treated as interchangeable bits, they tend to rebel and get into trouble.

You and I may consider the choices made by both parties in this case to be wrong and immature, but I doubt that either of them do. I also consider this case to be a failure in education, supervision and guidance on the part of the girl's parents.

I also have little doubt that there was "consent" -- possibly even eagerness -- and both parties think they are "In Love." The judge's decision on sentencing seems to indicate that he believed that not all of the "blame" in this case rested with Robinson.

This case is is NOT about what should be happening with 12 year old girls, or about what you and I think is appropriate for 12 year old girls, but about what IS happening with 12 year old girls.

Ignoring that fact that far too many young girls are "flirting and testing" themselves into sexual relationships doesn't change it. The only way to stop such cases is to accept they happen and it's not always some pedophile that is at fault, and then educate, supervise and guide your daughters so that they aren't part of the growing problem in this country.

I raised two daughters, and they were NOT part of the growing problem of young girls having sexul relations too young. They had the education, supervision and guidance to make good choices.

The girl in this case made a choice. Whether she was mature enough to make it, or knowledgeable about the consequences is irrelevant.

The man in this case also made a choice -- one he should have been mature enough to avoid.

The judge had the opportunity to observe both parties and apparently decided that they had both made choices and declined to sentence the man as if he were solely at fault.

 

[Weird Harold]

Harold, I beg you to stop repeating your absurd,and baseless but for your uniquely perverse opinion, remarks about 12 year old girls. No matter how precocious in whatever area of life, or how high an intelligence, or how sexually liberally raised and educated, or hormonally charged--there is no way a female of only twelve years experience of life on earth is ready for a sexual relationship with an adult or experienced male.

Perdita, my point is that, ready or not, an unsupervised and unguided 12 year-old can and will make the decision to lie about her age and SOME of them can do so effectively enough to fool a less than wise man.

The sparse facts in the news articles suggest that the judge felt the girl involved bore some of the blame for the situation.

12 year olds are are often prosecuted as adults in this country because it is recognised that they can distinguish right from wrong. They can and do make stupid decisions -- like commiting murder or having sex -- and I think that in this case the indications are that the judge decided that the girl made an adult choice that the man didn't deserve to suffer the full weight of the law for.

I am very angry with you but have tried to speak plainly and without rancor.

I'm equally upset with all of the "nannies" in this thread that assert that a 12 year-old can't make a bad decision no matter what her emotional maturity and that as 26 year-old man has to be bright enough to detect a deliberate deception about her age.

Whether she is "capable" of making such a decision is irrelevant to the fact that she apparently made the decision anyway -- and the judge apparently took notice of the fact that she made a choice.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

You know, that is a point I considered, and you made- that the man in question
might be somehow emotionally/intellectually diminished. That would account for
the leniency. It does seem that in any other case he would have been charged
with "rape of a child" (legally, true statutory usually only applies to age fifteen and up).

You're cool, Harold. And I know you're not trolling for preteens.
You actually remind me of my dad (the best parts)- the way you phrase things.
Do you ever read Fat Freddy and the Freak Brothers or listen to John Prine?

Your granddaughter must be smart- skipped ahead? Better than being bored. Trust me,
I know from experience. I was miserable when they axed "honors" classes at my highschool.

respectfully,

mlle


*boopS* I wrote the above before I read the last post. Nanny, huh? Nope, just
a twenty seven year old woman who assumed we were having a civil discussion.
Guess *I* made a bad choice.

 

[Weird Harold]

You know, that is a point I considered, and you made- that the man in question might be somehow emotionally/intellectually diminished. That would account for the leniency. It does seem that in any other case he would have been charged with "rape of a child" (legally, true statutory usually only applies to age fifteen and up).

I haven't bothered to look up Alabama's definition of "second degree rape." They may not distinguish between "rape of a child" and "statutory rape" as such. From the prosecutor's comments, their law seems to be one of those based on age difference rather than a fixed age of consent.

There is a wide spectrum of possibilities for her precociousness and his limited judgement, but the sentence from that judge certainly suggests that there are mitigating circumstances. I still think the sparse evidence from the news articles suggests that the judge felt that her actions/behavior were a large part of those mitigating circumstances -- i.e. the fact that she apparently tried to protect him with the lie about her diary's veracity.

Do you ever read Fat Freddy and the Freak Brothers or listen to John Prine?

Nope, those names don't ring a bell.

Your granddaughter must be smart- skipped ahead? Better than being bored. Trust me,
I know from experience. I was miserable when they axed "honors" classes at my highschool.

Her Birthday fits so that she entered kindergarten early and immediately got kicked out into first grade -- Kind of a hop and skip.

She's in a "Magnet School" because her sister was already enrolled there and siblings get to attend the same school if they (their parents)wish.

 

[Lisa Denton]

(Quote) I'd say that is true of MOST school districts. However, that's another blanket assumption -- my younger grandaughter will be in eight grade when she turns 12.
************************************************

Oh come on harold, I agree with Mlle that you seem intelligent and rational, other than this totally bizarre line of thought you initiated.

YOU said it was not about rape but age difference, when you said that the case was irrelevant and your were discussing your personal opinions about age difference.

The case is a fustercluck of strange and conflicting accusations.

There are laws in THIS country for a reason. A 12 year old child is not able to consent to sex with an adult no matter what grade she's in.

A 12 year old fumbling around sex with other 12 year olds is alarming but you are not even using that defense.

I also took offense that you thought we were all rich idiots and nannies with blind eyes and high ideals. I went hungry as a child and was too ashamed at one time to tell my parents my coat was stolen, because they would have had to miss paying bills to buy me another. A thoughtful teacher at my school took up donations and refused my parents request to pay back the money for a new coat.

!2 year olds should see things like that and grow and learn, not be having sex with 26 year old men.

And whether you agree or not, and no matter what head he's thinking with, a 26 year old man is RESPONSIBLE for having sex with a child. Whether the child was willing or not.

Just my opinion.

 

[RenzaJones]

no, I'm not implying anything.

I'm flatly stating that SOME twelve year old girls not only consent to but seek out sexual relationships. I'm also flatly stating that SOME of those twelve year old girls ARE mature enough to know exactly what they're getting into.

Age and maturity seldom have a direct relationship.

I know people over eighteen -- sometimes by a large margin -- who I don't think are mature enough to consent to eating breakfast. I also know people under age eighteen -- a couple as young as ten -- who are mature enough to meet the requirements legal emancipation.

I disagree and take offense to this idea because no matter what you say a child can not consent to sex and at that young of an age there's certainly a malfunction if the child actively persues sex. I'm not saying they don't know what they are doing or at least think so but nothing justifies a grown man fucking a 12 y/o whether she shook her little preteen ass in his face or not

 

[Boxlicker101]

What nobody seems to have addressed so far is that there was no evidence against the man and, under the usual rules of procedure, he should have been acquitted because of that lack. I am assuming there was no physical evidence. The entries in the girls diaries should not have been considered because she admitted they were fabricated.

Unfortunately, with the witch hunting attitude RE sex crimes against minors, a person accused almost have to prove it was not possible for the acts to have been committed and even then, there is a good chance of conviction. It's not supposed to work that way; the burden of proof should be on the prosecution, but it isn't in this kind of case.

Perhaps the judge saw that the conviction was bogus and pronounced the minimum sentence because that was all he could do since he couldn't have overruled the jury. Even so, the man should never have been convicted. Maybe when the girl grows up, there can be a petition to expunge the conviction. If she testifies then, as an adult, people might believe her. Meanwhile, the man wears the jacket of a child molester.