60 days for raping a 12 year old?

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

ROFLMAOPM

 

[Shock Chick]

Jeez, this is almost enough to bring a lump to my throat.

Shocky

 

[destinie21]

Jeez, this is almost enough to bring a lump to my throat.

Shocky

is it a lump of bile?

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Hey, your daddy and I will be fighting again real soon, baby...and even if we no longer hate eachother, we still love you. This is not your fault, honey- ok?

 

[Guest]

Hey, your daddy and I will be fighting again real soon, baby...and even if we no longer hate eachother, we still love you. This is not your fault, honey- ok?

Sigh of relief. Tr.

 

[destinie21]

lol

 

[Lisa Denton]

Ah, a light-hearted and touching moment. I was stayin away from this thread cause it was getting too bizarre. Whatever went on in that court room was sure as hell a lot more than we got from our trust-worthy (report the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and forget headlines) news reporters, so the case can't be argued one way or the other.
What angered me, and yes I've calmed down, was people saying the poor sap may have been seduced by this 12 year old child-vamp. Or maybe it was only oral sex untill she was 13 or 14?
Are you really going to draw the line at 12, do you think there are some really mature looking and acting 11 year olds? Is that where you draw the line? Maybe you would argue that if she was a mature seeming 6 years old, then the 26 year old man wasn't at fault because she may have wanted it?
Besides, he just made a mistake because he was thinking with his little head?
Something went on in that court that you and I never heard so its useless to discuss it. Those who think a man who is seduced by a 12 year old and therefore bears no responsibilty are just a little to close to the edge for me. Or is it 11, or is it 10, or is....

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Agreed. I love www.perverted-justice.com.

mlle

 

[Boxlicker101]

Has anybody but me ever considered that maybe - just maybe - the girl was telling the truth when she testified under oath that she made up the entries in her diary? It certainly wouldn't be the first time an adolescent has fantasized sex with an older person. Maybe she had a crush on the guy and wrote in her diary what she fantasized about the two of them doing. As for the intimate details, she could have copied or paraphrased from a porno book, which would be simple enough for her to find. Maybe she read some stories on Lit. and they gave her ideas of what to write. Why does everybody assume he was guilty despite the testimony of the principals involved?

Or, maybe, she was lying in court and that everything written was absolutely true. I certainly don't know and nobody who has posted to this thread knows either. Was there any other evidence? We don't know that either. If there wasn't, the miscarriage of justice was the conviction of a man with no evidence against him, not the sentence.

When I say "evidence" I mean physical evidence such as semen or saliva on her panties or an eye-witness or something like that. I don't mean a psychologist who would testify that "Sometimes, under similar circumstances, a person of comparable age will act in a manner not inconsistent with what was written in the diary." Such generalities should not be considered to be evidence.

 

[shereads]

Christ, that was like giving birth to a five-headed infant.

You're right, that stings a bit.

 

[shereads]

I googled a list of the legal ages of consent, and was a bit surprised to find that it's as low as 12 the Netherlands, Chile, Mexico, Colombia, Malta, Paraguay, and Zimbabwe. I'm not naive enough to think that most of the world enforces a respect for childhood, but I am surprised to learn that sex with 12-year-olds is legal in some countries. I thought that went out with the Dark Ages, when people married in a hurry so they could raise children before they died in their 30s or 40s.

Does anyone know if these legal ages are accurate?

 

[shereads]

Most people who are underage that commit murders go to Juvenile Detention. Trials as an adult are still a relative novelty

In Florida, we expect toddlers to be tough enough to do the time if they do the crime.

Btw, you're not getting a break if you end up in Juvenile Detention in Florida. Last year a 16-year-old boy died of appendicitus, sitting in a chair in the hallway outside his bedroom, three days after he first began complaining of the pain and asking for help. I'm not sure whether his captors are being tried as adults or not.

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

>>You're right, that stings a bit.<<

You mean I'm not the only one?????

 

[MlledeLaPlumeBleu]

Dying of appendicitis would be horrible. My great uncle's brother died that way.

They lived on farm in Kansas during the Depression, and everybody did their work and didn't complain. His brother had been feeling pain in his abdomen but went out to the field anyway. By the time he got home he was feeling really bad. He finally said something and they sent him to bed.

Unfortunately, by morning the appendix had ruptured and his hair was falling out. Not much can be done after that kind of poisoning occurs.


I at least hope the dumb asses who ignored the kid's complaints get some grief over it.

mlle

 

[Weird Harold]

Are you really going to draw the line at 12, do you think there are some really mature looking and acting 11 year olds? Is that where you draw the line? Maybe you would argue that if she was a mature seeming 6 years old, then the 26 year old man wasn't at fault because she may have wanted it?

You've obviously never dealt with a child determined to do something inappropriate.

Further, you choose to extrapolate extremes to the point of absurdity and refuse to see the point that the girl is apparently not complete innocent IN THIS CASE.

There are large helpings of blame to go around in this case.

Robinson showed extremely poor jusdgement, at the very least -- I can't speculate further than that because I don't have any facts. There's a strong possibility that he "brainwashed" her from an early age, but the sentencing and the family's reactions don't really support that

The girl allowed, or encouraged his attentions. She apparently lied to protect him under oath -- and was age fifteen or so when she did so; clearly old enough she should be able to uderstand the consequences of perjury.

The Girl's Mother clearly didn't exert any control, suprvision or guidance to her daughter. She didn't teach her daughter about "bad touching"or appropriate behavior.

The family tacitly approved of the relationship -- or at least turned a blind eye to it -- and seems more concerned about protecting him than it does her, or at least geting the whole scandal over with and swept under the rug.

Allowing, or even encouraging, a minor's determined experimentation is WRONG. That doesn't mean that children will stop experimenting. It is a parent's responsibility to restrain their children's entusiasms for inappropriate behavior and teach them to be responsible for their actions at any age.

Unfortunately, because of a legal fiction, the law does not permit the girl to be held responsible for anything that happened -- whether she was the driving force or not.

The judge apparently did take her responsibility into account in the sentencing -- nothing else makes sense.

Shereads:
I googled a list of the legal ages of consent, and was a bit surprised to find that it's as low as 12 the Netherlands, Chile, Mexico, Colombia, Malta, Paraguay, and Zimbabwe. I'm not naive enough to think that most of the world enforces a respect for childhood, but I am surprised to learn that sex with 12-year-olds is legal in some countries. I thought that went out with the Dark Ages, when people married in a hurry so they could raise children before they died in their 30s or 40s.

Does anyone know if these legal ages are accurate?

I'm sure that the ages are accurate -- although some of them may be out-dated. It all depends on just where you found them. The only way to be absolutely sure youknow the right ages is to find the actual statues.

As far as the "went out with the dark ages," most of the countries you listed still have the problem of short life-expectancy, a need for man-power in a low-tech society, and a cultural history of early marriages.

The Netherlands is the only country on the list that is a "first world" country where those factors don't apply -- but they do have a tendency to legislate laws that avoid "legislating morality" and permit what is happening anyway. I'm not sure that it's a particularly wise philosophy in this case, but it is more realistic than many places are.

I'm certainly not advocating that the US follow the example of those countries, but may of our laws that involve arbitrary ages could use some serious reconsideration to make them more rational.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I really don’t know anything about this case, but until you've been involved with the law and the press from the receiving end, you really can't appreciate how they distort and misrepresent and engage in any and all sorts of falsehood and nonsense in order to promote themselves, win cases, and sell papers.

Ever since my experience long ago, I am extremely suspicious of everything I read in the papers and see on TV. The more black and white it seems, the surer you can be that it actually exists in various barely-distinguishable shades of gray.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

I'm certainly not advocating that the US follow the example of those countries, but may of our laws that involve arbitrary ages could use some serious reconsideration to make them more rational.

I guess that's what judges are for, after all. In order for there to be laws protecting children from being used and manipulted by adults, someone has to decide upon a number of years that define adulthood and accountability for one's actions. A number can be nothing but arbitrary, so judges have to determine when acceptions are warranted.

You're right, there are extraordinarily precocious children, and there are men in their twenties who lack the discipline and maturity of teenagers - which doesn't exempt them from criminal law, unless there's some mental impairment that isn't mentioned in this case.

I'm also aware that there is a disturbing trend in North America for girls to mature physically at an exaggerated rate - with the result that their bodies reach sexual readiness while their brains still think sex is what Barbie wants Ken to do for her when she dresses up in her Little Mermaid outfit.

I hope there was something about this case that justified the judge's unaccustomed leniency, and that he isn't one of the occasional "she-asked-for-it" judges who are incabable of judging the rapist of any female, of any age.

One hopes there's more to the story than a creep letting another creep off the hook, as part of the international Creep Support Network.

One is also reminded that the reason states have sentencing guidelines for most crimes is to reign in judges who might otherwise allow their personal prejudices to go haywire. Guidelines are useful, but until someone invents software that administers justice with flawless clarity of purpose and absolute fairness, judges have to judge. The system plummets from imperfect to hopeless when state legislatures like Florida's replace sentencing guidelines with harsh mandatory sentencing for Crime X Committed in Situation Z.

Mandatory sentencing laws play well with voters, because they're Tough On Crime and we're frustrated by cases like this one, where an absence of certain details makes it appear that the judge was irresponsible. They make judges impotent, and fill our prisons with non-violent drug offenders, and teenagers who came into possession of a parent's gun during what should have been a schoolyard fistfight. Then there's the occasional mentally impaired 11-year-old who kils his playmate while imitating TV wrestling, is charged as an adult, and has a growth spurt so that by the time he appears before a jury, he looks like a young adult thug. His conviction results, by law, in a mandatory life sentence, that neither the judge nor the prosecuting attorney wanted. So why have a judge at all? A referee with a whistle could do the same thing for less money.

Fortunately, in this Florida case, the kid's appeal judge overturned his conviction, finding that insufficient consideration had been given to his ability to understand the charges against him. His mother, who had rejected a plea-bargain the first time and risked life in prison for her son rather than have him admit any wrongdoing, finally woke up and took the deal.

 

[cantdog]

I googled a list of the legal ages of consent, and was a bit surprised to find that it's as low as 12 the Netherlands, Chile, Mexico, Colombia, Malta, Paraguay, and Zimbabwe. I'm not naive enough to think that most of the world enforces a respect for childhood, but I am surprised to learn that sex with 12-year-olds is legal in some countries. I thought that went out with the Dark Ages, when people married in a hurry so they could raise children before they died in their 30s or 40s.

Does anyone know if these legal ages are accurate?

Fuckin A. We have a grotesquely extended adolescence in this country. Go to college with undergrads in the classroom, to see what I mean. Adults in every sense, supposedly, but their society allows them to indulge themselves in a pretense of childhood a bit longer if they stay in school.

"Does spelling count?"

"Aw, not Wednesday! I have a test in Lit. Wednesday! Can't we have it Friday?"

You just expect to hear that they don't have their research paper because the dog peed on it or their little brother ate it. Gawd.

If you genuinely expect a person to be making mature and independent decisions at sixteen, then they rise to the occasion and do it. If you are expected to marry and make your own living by that time, there will be little difficulty in being ready.

This country keeps them stupid and dependent and out of the labor pool for far too long.

Zimbabwe practices arranged marriages. The girls are going to be chattel anyway in the tribal cultures there. There are some paradoxical feratures to the culture, which allow of very influential women, but in this sphere of life, the kids are bargaining chips and become wives young.

 

[Alacrity Fitzhugh]

The two sections highlighted make this sound like a pair of lovers caught with their pants down -- i.e. a statutory rape conviction.

From the "victim's" attempt to pass her diary entry off as fiction, I suspect that the judge figured Robinson's biggest crime was not asking for and verifying an ID before letting the "victim" seduce him. (a physically mature 12-year-old who can pass for legal is rare, but not unheard of.)

Huh? What? Who let you out of your cage? I have only made a few posts to say hello and stuff, and I started reading this thread because I have followed that case. You think a 12 y.o. girl and a 26 y.o. man are a couple of lovers caught with thier pants down? In texas we would put you on trial.
The victim seduced him? Classic defense in rape cases but how the hell can you spit that garbage out when a child was involved.
His biggest crime was not asking for and verifying her I.D.? You pig she lived next door to him.
A 26 y.o. man FUCKING a child is illegal.
The judge isn't talking. No wonder there. But you are, maybe thats not so strange, after all its always the most ignorant who are the most vocal.

 

[shereads]

Fuckin A. We have a grotesquely extended adolescence in this country. Go to college with undergrads in the classroom, to see what I mean. Adults in every sense, supposedly, but their society allows them to indulge themselves in a pretense of childhood a bit longer if they stay in school.

The truly dedicated can remain in adolesence well past graduate school. I've worked with men in their late thirties who collect GI Joe dolls. (Oops. I meant action figures) and not only acknowledge each other's, um, gaseous issue, but chortle with glee and turn it into a competition.

Shoud they be held accountable for rape? Not even. They should be prevented from breeding altogether. We could use a more adult population of adults.

 

[Liar]

The truly dedicated can remain in adolesence well past graduate school. I've worked with men in their late thirties who collect GI Joe dolls. (Oops. I meant action figures) and not only acknowledge each other's, um, gaseous issue, but chortle with glee and turn it into a competition.

Shoud they be held accountable for rape? Not even. They should be prevented from breeding altogether. We could use a more adult population of adults.

I work with 45 year old 13 stone suit and tie blokes who have the social maturity of kindergarten kids.

One one hand, it's kind of endearing. They build paperclip fortresses on their desks. On the other hand, they also have five-year-old's costant craving for attention, affirmation and the other kids' toys. Or in their case, the other kids' costomer relations and accounts. Which is really stupid, since they don't get promotion anyway. I think it is some kind of bizarre pissing contest going on.

They have wives and kids. I've met them. They seem normal. The world is a strange and scary place.

#L

 

[Pure]

Good points, cant,

Adolescents often are construed as kids, and as sher said, continue adolescence and living at home till their 30s.

I dislike the Florida approach of executing retarded 13 yr olds, but I also think the law does well to hold many adolescents responsible as adults (which, in theory at least, still leaves 'treatment' options open, or, as open as they would be otherwise). Else the 19 yr olds, get the 15 year olds to be the triggermen.

We have a law here that an 18 year old is an adult and can join the army and go to Afghanistan, BUT, the age for certain liquor and tobaco purchases is 19!.

From what I've seen, the Dutch tend to be very sensible. So, Holland is not Mississippi or Sudan. I suspect the 12 yr old held capable of consent, also knows of how pregnancy occurs, condoms, and other BC methods. They have an EXCELLENT low rate of teen pregnancy iirc (and probably of teen marriage).

So while I don't think young teens should be 'thrown to the wolves,' the US (and Sudan, etc.) situation of keeping them ignorant (no sex info at school; no mention of anything but abstinence, etc.) AND allegedly 'protecting' them is an unfortunate 'racket' As you suggested, the first item of priority is for teens to assume responsiblity, for instance in taking a job or task for which they are responsible.

Some of these same considerations apply to women, imo. The gov should not protect where simple maturity is required. Hence there should be, imo, no legal consequences for a 'proposition' from a co-worker; but there should of course be consequences where a bunch of guys, as a persistent pattern, make the female co-employee's life miserable by sexual propositions, etc.

Speaking of a cutting edge topic, the question in the US, whether a prof's sleeping with a student (even a graduate student) should be licit, is *quite hot. The 'protection' folks want all the undergrads**--and even grads--protected by sanctioning such a prof. The 'liberals' simply want the 'grades' issue (and related ones) dealt with. I.e., the prof can NOT be fucking a student s/he's grading. One way is to forbid dating a student in one's course or even department; alternatively, either the student leaves the course or is graded by another, should there be any continuing contact.

----
** Many or most of whom are legal adults.

 

[snooper]

... I'm sure that the ages are accurate -- although some of them may be out-dated. ...
The Netherlands is the only country on the list that is a "first world" country where those factors don't apply -- but they do have a tendency to legislate laws that avoid "legislating morality" and permit what is happening anyway. I'm not sure that it's a particularly wise philosophy in this case, but it is more realistic than many places are. ...

In the Netherlands the age of consent was lowered from 14 to 12 a couple of years ago. I understand the reason was that the age of puberty has been dropping.

Isn't it odd to see legislators who pay attention to facts?

 

[Randi Grail]

Here (Italy) the age of consent is 14, but if the older participant is not too old, meaning somewehre in the teens, and it is obviously consentual sex between sexually aware (mature would be a stretch) youths, charges of statuatory rape are by default dropped. They know that horny youngsters have sex, and that no law is going to stop that from happening.

Curiously enough, in most cases that go as far as investigation, the man (eeh...boy, I mean) is the younger one.

 

[Pure]

mlle,

in regard to perverted justice and 'outing' accused perverts, with home phone numbers on the 'net.

what say you, if down Nebraska way, they start the attack on internet porn, and attack that's gotten stalled when COPA (Child Online Protection Act) was put on hold by the US federal courts.

a group, "Perverted Justice against Purveyors of Porn to Minors (Nebraska branch)"

goes to the larger 'free porn' sites, easily accessible to kids. they compile a list of writers, like you and me, and publish the real names, screennames, addresses and home phones.

you wake up to:
PURVEYORS OF PORN ACCESSIBLE TO CHILDREN

Liisa Halonen
"mlledelaplumebleu"
011-358-50-57x-xxxx

there is also this disclaimer (revised slightly from the p j site)

Disclaimer: This information is made available for the purpose of informing the internet community, creating awareness for parents, and deterring individuals such as this. Our claims of "truth" with this file are limited to two areas, that the screen name in question wrote porn stories available to minors, and that in files post-September 1st, 2003, the phone number included in this announcement is legally registered to the named person by his or her ISP provider.

Anyone who attempts to use this information to commit a criminal act against another person can be subject to criminal prosecution or civil action. Perverted Justice against Purveyors of Porn to Minors condemns the attempt, use, or even thought of physical violence, extortion or harassment against the individual above. Such actions are not in the spirit of what our group is all about and would put your own personal safety at risk.
-------

Aside from the arguable sliminess of the above, the issue seems to be privacy, and who can end a person's. Obviously, a person's privacy may end when charges are laid, and certainly (in most cases) when their court trial begins, but this is rather much earlier.

This sort of 'outing' is perhaps reminiscent of sites that publish names and home addresses of 'abortion doctors', with faces, some of them X'd out; the ones already killed. Suitable disclaimers, or course.