A question for the believers....

[cloudy]

Well I certainly can't respect someone that has to hide their beliefs but has no problem berating someone for theirs.

I'm not hiding anything. As Luc says, it's a basic tenet of mine that it's private.

And, your disprespect was apparent from the get-go.

 

[English Lady]

LC, I think I know what you're getting at, I do.

I guess what it comes down to is that those who are willing to declare their belief or who can because it's part of their religion, are open to people's questions etc. If you have a private faith that means you want or need to keep it private you cant be questioned in the same way.

It's just the way it is I guess.

I can understand why Joe and Sting are getting wound up and I do see their point but there is a line where when someone says "No I'm not going to discuss that" that you stop asking and leave it be.

I truly think that Sting in particular is doing himself a disservice trying to continue a debate when there isn't one to have.

There is a time and a season for everything. Say your thing in a way that's not designed to rile up the person/people you're debating with then know when to leave it be.

I should look up the verse but i'm sure there is osmething somewhere that says that man alone can't convert a person, they need the Holy Spirit for that.

I really think this thread is just turning into a scrapping match, a battle of words and wills and I don't think there is any good in that.

 

[Guest]

Well I certainly can't respect someone that has to hide their beliefs but has no problem berating someone for theirs.

Then Obviously you have no respect for yourself.

I'm done with you now.

Ignored.

 

[stingray61]

Sorry. If it's an consolation, I was taken for a woman for the first couple of weeks I was on the AH. Still have some choice cuts stored somewhere from that whole thing.

And I assure you, you were a quite becoming lady in my misapprehension. I probably wouldn't have slept with you, but you'd nonetheless have turned the heads of many here.

He he he he but no it's no consolationlol.

As far as private religion, let me explain one thing. When I said that one of its tenents is privacy, I mean it. I have only told three people total any specifics about it and none of them know the full tenets. It would be a sacrilege that would require an amazing level of trust and bonding with you to share. And we do not share that. If my dead best friend who I revered didn't know all of it, you can't expect me as a moral Christian to do such an act for you. cloudy's is probably less dramatic, but similar in basic nature.

Fair enough but to me a "private religion" is very scary. Kind of sounds like you have something to hide or be afraid of but hey do what you must. In all truth it reminds me of the KKK and their ilk....we believe what we believe but we aren't going to talk about it cause it's a secret. Not very sporting is it? (again no offence intended it's just how it makes me feel). Just out of curiosity how do others start believing like you do if you don't talk about it? or do they?

Would it stand to "rational debate"? Who knows? I doubt it would fare much worse than any other religion, but you'd have to accept that a great many of the proofs and revelations are related to personal experiences and trends and sights. Not to mention the problems born out of its utter unorthodoxy. Again, cloudy's position is probably similar but far less extreme.

That being said, we both have backgrounds where understanding Christian theology was a neccesity, thus we are both able to discuss Christian theology with a modicum of understanding.

Why if you expect us to accept a faith of prostelyzing, you would deny us the acceptance of a non-prostelyzing or anti-prostelyzing faith, I don't fully understand, but I recognize that this is mostly my failing.

I don't see how I'm expecting you to accept anything.

If it is a simple reason for our inability to accept the Lord, I can at least speak for myself when I say I just don't believe in Him and I don't personally believe that the Bible is correct and accurate. Life and existence and personal discovery meant I found a different faith and I believe what I believe. And I mean really believe. Just as you couldn't switch a Maglite and go to not believing in God, I can't do the same for my beliefs. I know they are real.

Ok again fair enough and thanks for explaining things a little better. I wasn't asking anyone to believe in the Bible or Christ, just that they not argue it without true understanding.

But since this faith is personal, since it is unorthodox, and since I have an anti-desire to have anyone believe as I do, I mostly exist in discussion as a third-party sticking up for secular humanism, paganism, or Christianity where neccessary since those were and are the faiths of my friends.

-

 

[stingray61]

You're very young, aren't you?

ROFLMBO there you go assuming things again. Isn't that something you berated me for doing earlier?

Young or old doesn't matter here because you have yet to understand what I have been trying to say and you obviously refuse to understand it. Also you haven't given any informative reasoning as to why I shouldn't say what I've been saying. All you have been doing is putting me down for what you THINK I'm saying which in reality is a long way from what I am actually saying. How many times do I have to say that?

As for being young lets talk about young for a moment shall we. I will assume for the sake of argument that what you meant by "young" was immature. Now if we want to talk about immaturity we can discuss you and your belief that your religion is private and you won't speak publically about it. Example...*no its my religion and you cant have it or know it cause its mine all mine, so there*.

I was honestly curious, and am now even more so, to know about your religion. Firstly I was curious because I'd never heard of such a thing as keeping a religion a secret, now I am curious because I think your religion might be dangerous.

Ok, I apologize in advance for my smart ass remarks concerning the immature thing, I let my disappointment with you get the better of me.

 

[cloudy]

ROFLMBO there you go assuming things again. Isn't that something you berated me for doing earlier?

Young or old doesn't matter here because you have yet to understand what I have been trying to say and you obviously refuse to understand it. Also you haven't given any informative reasoning as to why I shouldn't say what I've been saying. All you have been doing is putting me down for what you THINK I'm saying which in reality is a long way from what I am actually saying. How many times do I have to say that?

As for being young lets talk about young for a moment shall we. I will assume for the sake of argument that what you meant by "young" was immature. Now if we want to talk about immaturity we can discuss you and your belief that your religion is private and you won't speak publically about it. Example...*no its my religion and you cant have it or know it cause its mine all mine, so there*.

I was honestly curious, and am now even more so, to know about your religion. Firstly I was curious because I'd never heard of such a thing as keeping a religion a secret, now I am curious because I think your religion might be dangerous.

Ok, I apologize in advance for my smart ass remarks concerning the immature thing, I let my disappointment with you get the better of me.

Sure, it's dangerous. Why don't you send some of those small-pox infested blankets over this way...that seems to be the accepted way of dealing with "others." Sorry, folks, I just hav to add this last part Especially seeing that was the only way we could be beaten down.



edited to add: the reason I was commenting on your apparent youth was the disrespect you have shown everyone here who didn't agree with you, including the smart-assed comment to mismused.

 

[English Lady]

Oh now sting come on!

You are not doing any good putting down these other folks beliefs. If anything you're fueling their belief that you're arrogant and ignorant and out to cause trouble.

I know you mean well, well I hope you mean well, but I cannot see how you can possibly expect to further the kingdom of God by pissing people off.

 

[stingray61]

Then Obviously you have no respect for yourself.

I'm done with you now.

Ignored.

You're an ignorant child. "I'm done with you now. Ignored" so there neener neener neener I'm rubber and your glue everything you say bounces of me and sticks to you. How utterly childish. I haven't hidden my beliefs silly rabbit on the contrary I have put them and myself out here for all to abuse and yet I'm still here, not hiding in some hole. Until you can do that you really have no import in this thread.

 

[Guest]

Oh now sting come on!

You are not doing any good putting down these other folks beliefs. If anything you're fueling their belief that you're arrogant and ignorant and out to cause trouble.

I know you mean well, well I hope you mean well, but I cannot see how you can possibly expect to further the kingdom of God by pissing people off.

Ya know, I was just thinking....

If I put up a bilboard touting the advantages of worshipping Odin, how long would it take the christian community have it taken down?

And we ALL know they would.

 

[stingray61]

Sure, it's dangerous. Why don't you send some of those small-pox infested blankets over this way.



edited to add: the reason I was commenting on your apparent youth was the disrespect you have shown everyone here who didn't agree with you, including the smart-assed comment to mismused.

I've stopped showing respect because none of you have shown any to me and I'm human and subject to that sin after all. Now tell me how it's all my fault because I never showed anyone respect from the beginning child.

 

[cloudy]

I've stopped showing respect because none of you have shown any to me and I'm human and subject to that sin after all. Now tell me how it's all my fault because I never showed anyone respect from the beginning child.

Child?

*snort*

When you show respect, you'll get some. Until then, I can dish it out as good as anyone here, sweets. I'm not called the cloud warrior for nothin'.

 

[stingray61]

Oh now sting come on!

You are not doing any good putting down these other folks beliefs. If anything you're fueling their belief that you're arrogant and ignorant and out to cause trouble.

I know you mean well, well I hope you mean well, but I cannot see how you can possibly expect to further the kingdom of God by pissing people off.

You're right, I digress. my apologies to you.

 

[stingray61]

Child?

*snort*

When you show respect, you'll get some. Until then, I can dish it out as good as anyone here, sweets. I'm not called the cloud warrior for nothin'.

LOL thanks for proving my point.

 

[cloudy]

LOL thanks for proving my point.

As you already did mine, pages ago. I was just wondering how long you'd let me bait you into continuing.

 

[stingray61]

Ok here it is, not that I care if any of you care or not.

I have not nor will I try to convert or convince anyone here to believe as I do. All I have tried to do is explain that you shouldn't talk down about the Bible if you don't fully understand it, and I have tried to help some understand it as I do. Understanding in no way denotes that you must believe in the Bible, or God or, Jesus, or The Holy Spirit. I am just convinced that if you truly understood the Bible you would have no further need to repudiate it, and therefore I would have no need to convert or convince anyone as a true undertsanding of the Bible will do that all by itself.

Lord help them for they know not what they do.

 

[Guest]

Wow! I love how this thread has really got me thinking about a lot of things.

For instance:

For years christian groups have crusaded to ban "offensive" books from schools and libraries. The moral majority has taken on the entire modern music idustry. Great works are being removed almost daily from schools all over our country because the contradict christian beliefs. Legislation is passed on a constant basis that prevents other beliefs from being seen in our schools and yet they also lobby to allow prayer be returned to schools.

I wonder what would happen if I went to the next PTA meeting and delivered a speech like the following:

"Jonesboro. Paducah. Littleton. The names of those towns are seared into our collective memory. Since 1996, 30 students have died in school shootings, with dozens of others injured.

After the April 21st shooting at Columbine High School in Colorado, legislators finally took notice. Knee-jerk legislation abounded because never before in America's history had so many middle-class, God-fearing, porcelain children met a brutal demise in one fell swoop.

Something has to be done to protect the children, no matter how reactionary. Heading the pack is Henry Hyde.

Hyde, the chairman of the House Committee on the Judiciary, promptly announced a bill titled the "Children's Defense Act of 1999." At first, I thought this bill would protect children from their incompetent, irresponsible parents, but the bill would actually prohibit any establishment – from libraries to video stores to bookstores – from selling, renting, or loaning violent and sexual material to minors.

The no-no's on Hyde's list include: acts of masturbation, homosexuality, and sexual intercourse; physical contact with a person's clothed or unclothed genitals, buttocks, or breasts; rape; acts of mutilation upon the human body; and, sadistic or masochistic activity.

Many view this legislation as an affront to the First Amendment. Some school districts, at the behest of parents, have already banned such book as The Diary of Anne Frank, To Kill A Mockingbird, The Color Purple, and Huckleberry Finn.

Even though Hyde's proposal makes allowances for violent and sexually explicit that has "socially redeeming value" for minors, who decides what is socially redeeming? This legislation could still aid in the quest to ban "offensive" books, right?

Well, to hell with the naysayers. I applaud Hyde's effort. We need to protect America's children, regardless of the cost to the freedom we hold so dear. I view this as the perfect time to take this legislation to its natural extreme and rid this fine, moral nation of a book that has polluted the minds of American children for generations.

No book, be it American Psycho or Lady Chatterly's Lover, has depicted such extreme acts of violence and sexual relations as this book has. But, this book is widely accepted and cherished.

While it costs $7 to rent a pornographic movie in a motel, this book is available in every room – in an unlocked drawer, where innocent children can easily find it, and have their impressionable minds corrupted and their fragile lives ruined.

From an early age, most Americans are exposed to this book in their homes, schools, and place of worship. Special diluted versions of this book have been created specifically for children and lazy adults because the unadulterated version is grotesque and perverse. If any person claiming that this book belongs in the bedroom of every child and on the desk of every teacher took the time to read the content, his opinion might change.

This book is dark, dreary, and morbid. This book encourages people to hang pictures of a nearly nude, bloodied man engaged in a masochistic activity – an obvious sexual fetish – and to wear his broken body around their necks. This book discusses, and sometimes, glorifies: adultery, incest, rape, mutilation, cannibalism, and murder.

(Genesis 19:4-8 ) "And Lot went up to Zoar," reads a passage, "and stayed in the mountains, and his two daughters with him.... Then the firstborn said to the younger, 'Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.' Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father."

Two daughters conspire to have sex with their father. Here we have rape, deceit, incest, and illegitimate pregnancy. Do we want our children exposed to this debauchery? According to the organization Prevent Child Abuse America, at least 20% of American women experienced some form of sexual abuse as children. What kind of message is this book sending to girls? That sexual abuse is okay? That incest is acceptable?

And, yet, it is held up as a moral guide.

What of the passage that reads, "(II Kings 6:28,29) And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son,that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son."

What kind of sick imagery does that put into the minds of children? The consumption of one's young? Why, even in Hansel and Gretel, the two children get away before the witch can eat them. Here, cannibalism and child murder are not depicted in a negative light.

In a 1993 national survey conducted by Metropolitan Life, 55 percent of teachers and 60 percent of law enforcement officials believed that violence in the mass media is a "major" factor contributing to violence in the schools.

But, still, this book remains an integral part of America's culture and history.

America's children are suffering. Our children are crying out for help. They are in danger. If we are to save them, if we are to rescue them from this moral turpitude, there is only one thing we can do: ban this book; ban the Bible. Don't you care enough about the children to do that?"

 

[stingray61]

Well you've finally gone and done it people. You've shown me the error of my ways, you've shown me my beliefs are wrong and immoral. Since I no longer have any beliefs, and therefore no Heaven to go to there's nothing left for me to do but end it all in a last brief act of suicide.

"So long and thanks for all the fish" D.A.

 

[Guest]

Well you've finally gone and done it people. You've shown me the error of my ways, you've shown me my beliefs are wrong and immoral. Since I no longer have any beliefs, and therefore no Heaven to go to there's nothing left for me to do but end it all in a last brief act of suicide.

"So long and thanks for all the fish" D.A.

Just don't stop your car in the path of an oncoming commuter train to do it. No sense ending innocent lives over your misfortunes.

 

[mismused]

Ahhhhh another one that hasn't read everything I've said. Can you please show me where I said anyone HAS to believe in what I believe in, or where I've said as you qoute "I'm right, and you better see it"?

========================

Repetitious insistence does it for me; e.g.


9:14 AM (Lit time)
Oh and one more tiny thing. I don't care if you believe in my opinions or not, just as long as you stop mis-interpreting the Bible.

(What you believe is "the" interpretation.)

9:31 AM (Lit time)
As I said before I don't really want people to agree with me I just want them to undrestand the Bible correctly, if, after that they still don't believe then that's fine too.

(Ibid? Seems to be. Again, your interpretation of what is correct. Come on, Sting, that's what you're saying. You said you'd admit it if any showed you that you were wrong. Are you really so blind?)

11:43 AM (Lit time)
Christ is the only way to Heaven. The Bible is the Word of God as written down by men and The Holy Spirit. If you DON'T believe what it says you will not get you to Heaven. You must believe in what the Bible says (as far as being saved goes) and follow it in order to go to Heaven. At least that's what I believe.

(Heh-heh! Yeah, right, you've never said any HAS to believe in what I believe in, or where I've said as you qoute "I'm right, and you better see it"? Give us a break. If that isn't "I better," nothing is.)

12:02 PM (lit time)
Sorry but I think if you're going to get into this discussion at all you should at least be willing to share your beliefs.

(Yeah, that's a kind of "I better" thingy, especially since it fits with the rest of your insistences.)

(and)

just don't argue mine unless your willing to put yours up to the same interrogation. Refusing to do so is hypocritical IMO

(Name calling now. Hmm! Yep, that's an insistence too. No doubt about it.)

(and)

I'm trying to get them to understand the Bible as I do before they go knocking it. If they did that, they wouldn't need me or anyone else to convert them or convince them of anything because Jesus, and God, and The Bible do that just fine all by themselves. It's because they don't truly understand it that they disagree with it.

(Now this insistence is a real jewel. I don't truly understand according to what you believe, eh? That's arrogance in the extreme. I started to say pompous, but that sometimes indicates erudition, and there is nothing erudite about anything you have said so far. Nope, only rabid insistence that has a lot of "I better" in it.)

*Sigh!* Please give it up, sweetie.

mismused

 

[cloudy]

mismused, babe, you forgot this part:

"Lord help them for they know not what they do."

If that's not arrogance, I'd love to see what is.

 

[mismused]

mismused, babe, you forgot this part:

"Lord help them for they know not what they do."

If that's not arrogance, I'd love to see what is.

==========================

Aw, did he really say that?

 

[mismused]

Oh now sting come on!

You are not doing any good putting down these other folks beliefs. If anything you're fueling their belief that you're arrogant and ignorant and out to cause trouble.

I know you mean well, well I hope you mean well, but I cannot see how you can possibly expect to further the kingdom of God by pissing people off.

=====================

How true. Is it okay that I agree with you on this? I hope so, for you surely see what he doesn't.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

If one believes they honestly have the truth about the religious metaphysic... is it wrong to inform others of it?

 

[stingray61]

Wow! I love how this thread has really got me thinking about a lot of things.

For instance:

For years christian groups have crusaded to ban "offensive" books from schools and libraries. The moral majority has taken on the entire modern music idustry. Great works are being removed almost daily from schools all over our country because the contradict christian beliefs. Legislation is passed on a constant basis that prevents other beliefs from being seen in our schools and yet they also lobby to allow prayer be returned to schools.

I wonder what would happen if I went to the next PTA meeting and delivered a speech like the following:

"Jonesboro. Paducah. Littleton. The names of those towns are seared into our collective memory. Since 1996, 30 students have died in school shootings, with dozens of others injured.

After the April 21st shooting at Columbine High School in Colorado, legislators finally took notice. Knee-jerk legislation abounded because never before in America's history had so many middle-class, God-fearing, porcelain children met a brutal demise in one fell swoop.

Something has to be done to protect the children, no matter how reactionary. Heading the pack is Henry Hyde.

Hyde, the chairman of the House Committee on the Judiciary, promptly announced a bill titled the "Children's Defense Act of 1999." At first, I thought this bill would protect children from their incompetent, irresponsible parents, but the bill would actually prohibit any establishment – from libraries to video stores to bookstores – from selling, renting, or loaning violent and sexual material to minors.

The no-no's on Hyde's list include: acts of masturbation, homosexuality, and sexual intercourse; physical contact with a person's clothed or unclothed genitals, buttocks, or breasts; rape; acts of mutilation upon the human body; and, sadistic or masochistic activity.

And it's ok with you if children do this kind of thing?

Many view this legislation as an affront to the First Amendment. Some school districts, at the behest of parents, have already banned such book as The Diary of Anne Frank, To Kill A Mockingbird, The Color Purple, and Huckleberry Finn.

Even though Hyde's proposal makes allowances for violent and sexually explicit that has "socially redeeming value" for minors, who decides what is socially redeeming? This legislation could still aid in the quest to ban "offensive" books, right?

Well, to hell with the naysayers. I applaud Hyde's effort. We need to protect America's children, regardless of the cost to the freedom we hold so dear. I view this as the perfect time to take this legislation to its natural extreme and rid this fine, moral nation of a book that has polluted the minds of American children for generations.

No book, be it American Psycho or Lady Chatterly's Lover, has depicted such extreme acts of violence and sexual relations as this book has. But, this book is widely accepted and cherished.

While it costs $7 to rent a pornographic movie in a motel, this book is available in every room – in an unlocked drawer, where innocent children can easily find it, and have their impressionable minds corrupted and their fragile lives ruined.

From an early age, most Americans are exposed to this book in their homes, schools, and place of worship. Special diluted versions of this book have been created specifically for children and lazy adults because the unadulterated version is grotesque and perverse. If any person claiming that this book belongs in the bedroom of every child and on the desk of every teacher took the time to read the content, his opinion might change.

This book is dark, dreary, and morbid. This book encourages people to hang pictures of a nearly nude, bloodied man engaged in a masochistic activity – an obvious sexual fetish – and to wear his broken body around their necks. This book discusses, and sometimes, glorifies: adultery, incest, rape, mutilation, cannibalism, and murder.

(Genesis 19:4-8 ) "And Lot went up to Zoar," reads a passage, "and stayed in the mountains, and his two daughters with him.... Then the firstborn said to the younger, 'Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father.' Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father."

"Yup that happened because the virgin daughters were tainted by Sodom, (again the Pagans). They sinned ok, so what's the point? No-where in the Bible does it say that it was approved of. Just because God didn't smite them doesn't mean it's ok.

Two daughters conspire to have sex with their father. Here we have rape, deceit, incest, and illegitimate pregnancy. Do we want our children exposed to this debauchery? According to the organization Prevent Child Abuse America, at least 20% of American women experienced some form of sexual abuse as children. What kind of message is this book sending to girls? That sexual abuse is okay? That incest is acceptable?

And, yet, it is held up as a moral guide.


It's held up as a moral guide of what NOT to do. Only a fool would believe otherwise.

What of the passage that reads, "(II Kings 6:28,29) And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son,that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son."


Yeah well the women were Arameans, not Christians and not even believers in God but PAGANS just like your friend the cloud

What kind of sick imagery does that put into the minds of children? The consumption of one's young? Why, even in Hansel and Gretel, the two children get away before the witch can eat them. Here, cannibalism and child murder are not depicted in a negative light.

In a 1993 national survey conducted by Metropolitan Life, 55 percent of teachers and 60 percent of law enforcement officials believed that violence in the mass media is a "major" factor contributing to violence in the schools.

But, still, this book remains an integral part of America's culture and history.

America's children are suffering. Our children are crying out for help. They are in danger. If we are to save them, if we are to rescue them from this moral turpitude, there is only one thing we can do: ban this book; ban the Bible. Don't you care enough about the children to do that?"

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

LC, I think I know what you're getting at, I do.

I guess what it comes down to is that those who are willing to declare their belief or who can because it's part of their religion, are open to people's questions etc. If you have a private faith that means you want or need to keep it private you cant be questioned in the same way.

It's just the way it is I guess.

I can understand why Joe and Sting are getting wound up and I do see their point but there is a line where when someone says "No I'm not going to discuss that" that you stop asking and leave it be.

I truly think that Sting in particular is doing himself a disservice trying to continue a debate when there isn't one to have.

There is a time and a season for everything. Say your thing in a way that's not designed to rile up the person/people you're debating with then know when to leave it be.

I should look up the verse but i'm sure there is osmething somewhere that says that man alone can't convert a person, they need the Holy Spirit for that.

I really think this thread is just turning into a scrapping match, a battle of words and wills and I don't think there is any good in that.

Kind of. You get the basic gist. Part of it is the solemn belief that religion is a personal thing and that if no one else is going to take it to heart, I might as well. Part of it is a measure of pride (if I couldn't tell he who was most important to me the full load, why the Hell should I tell people who automatically assume it's "KKK" and "scary" and "not a religion"). Part of it is the knowledge that most people wouldn't understand it without knowing a shitload of very personal details about myself, my life, and my pains.

But the most important thing is that it is so personal, that I have told so few people anything about it. If that fact gives people worry and makes people think of multi-member cults that seek to expand and push their agendas, then even if I was halfway willing to share it, I would likely refrain in this atmosphere.



If however, you'd like something of my beliefs to debate on the subject, I'll gladly throw you a deep belief that eternal justice is the only thing that gives life, afterlife, and religion meaning. I stated it before and it was my only "real" postings on this thread.

Take that, tear it up like a dog's squeaky for as much as I care. That is a piece of my worldview that I gladly make public. Piss on it like some did earlier on the memory of my greatest friend.

-Satan Out.

Peace.