adulterous affairs and flings

[midwestyankee]

I speak in this thread with no real experience of cheating; only the occasional thought that someone else was attractive and tempting.

But I'm really dismayed at all the posts showing a belief that a person's actions might be taken to be ethical or not depending on his or her situation. Crap.

Ethics are not ethics if they may change according to the situation. Then what's guiding your life is mere convenience wrapped in rationalization surrounded by lies.

So in the end, it's a question of the principles by which you choose to live your life. Oh, and remember, you might live to be 100. How much regret can you swallow between now and then?

 

[Jaybird3]

Midwestyankee, I tend to disagree with you.

To me, and this is my personal opinion, it means making the best decision for yourself and then having the courage to stick with it. I won't live by your ethics because they are not right for me. I have my own, and they suit me just fine.

I am not lying to me, I am not lying to anyone. It is just that your monogamous views on things are not mine.

"For better or for worst, till death do us part" can make a life a very cold and lonely place to be.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Midwestyankee, I tend to disagree with you.

To me, and this is my personal opinion, it means making the best decision for yourself and then having the courage to stick with it. I won't live by your ethics because they are not right for me. I have my own, and they suit me just fine.

I am not lying to me, I am not lying to anyone. It is just that your monogamous views on things are not mine.

"For better or for worst, till death do us part" can make a life a very cold and lonely place to be.

Uh huh...it takes bravery to break your word and lie to your spouse...we're all proud of cheaters for having so much courage. Not enough courage to be honest or show integrity, but no one's perfect, right?
You got divorced, right? Doesn't it take courage to step out OF the marriage, instead of stepping out ON the marriage?

 

[Jaybird3]

Johnny what it took to step out of the marriage for me, was more than I care to detail here. It was not courage, if I had been courageous, the marriage would have been over shortly after it begin.

I am just saying that not everyone is the same. That when someone has the honesty and courage to post about "cheating" on a spouse, it is a given that we won't get all the details in a post.

Given that, all I ask is for people not to judge them simply because they say that they cheated. Even the term has different meanings to different people. We don't know all the circumstances. Therefore, if we can't offer honest advice without condemnation perhaps we shouldn't post at all.

That is what I am saying.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Johnny what it took to step out of the marriage for me, was more than I care to detail here. It was not courage, if I had been courageous, the marriage would have been over shortly after it begin.

I am just saying that not everyone is the same. That when someone has the honesty and courage to post about "cheating" on a spouse, it is a given that we won't get all the details in a post.

Given that, all I ask is for people not to judge them simply because they say that they cheated. Even the term has different meanings to different people. We don't know all the circumstances. Therefore, if we can't offer honest advice without condemnation perhaps we shouldn't post at all.

That is what I am saying.

You know, it would be different if people who posted at least pretended that their spouse was a human being, not an inconvenience, a hinderance to them getting their rocks off.

 

[Jaybird3]

I understand that. I know that in some cases that it would appear that is what they are doing. But again, not knowing the complete history and getting only a part of the story doesn't help either.

So, personally I try very hard not to condemn but only offer an ear to bend. Most of the time that is all they need to decide what they are going to do anyway.

 

[Scarlett_t2]

I have been reading these post about cheating for the last couple of days. I didn't want to resond it's a very touchy subject. I have unfortunitly been cheated on many times by my first husband. The pain it caused will never leave me. The pain he cased will never leave all those involved. I was very young and stupid and it took me a few years to figure out no one deserves to be treated like that. I met my current husband while still married to the first. As much as I wanted to "be" with him I told him I would not until I was divorced. Even with the hurt and anger my ex had caused me I couldn't do that not even to him. I am glad I did.

Intimacy has always been a problem for me. Why I am not sure but it has effected my relationship with my husband. He is very caring and feeling where I am not. But instead of finding someone else who is we have worked on it and worked on it for over 15+ yrs. I still have issues but I do my best and he makes me want to keep trying for I know he would do the same for me if things were the other way around.

There are shades of grey in all things. I do believe you can love two people at the same time and if those two people know about each other then great but if they don't besides destoying them I have learned it's not worth destroying you. I have been tempted once but that fleeting moment wasn't worth loosing what I have.

Sex probably won't last forever ( I hope it will) but if it dosn't that is OK with me, because he will be by my side and still holding my hand and that I think is what we all deep down are looking for.

Just my thoughts
Scarlett

 

[James G 5]

just because YOU can't percieve of yourself loving more than one person, don't presume that other people can't!
it IS possible to love two people at the same time - it just hasn't happened to YOU.

Hey, I'm poly & I don't believe in cheating or contributing to someone else doing so
If you're lying & doing something behind someone's back, it's a violation of trust
Without trust & honesty, there's no love

 

[pecan9676]

It occurs to me that while everyone is talking about sex and the hurt that this can cause a spouse. Noone has said a thing about the withholding of intimacy. I think that is what drives a lot of people to cheat.

The sexual issues, (i.e. lack of), they could work around with a shower. The lack of intimacy, the lack of support, the lack of any gestures to validate their self worth is what drives many to have affairs or flings.

The thing that most bothers me about some of the posts in this thread, is the automatic condemnation of someone who steps out on the marriage. I believe that many times the whole story is not in a post. Without knowing all the dynamics of someone's marriage, I just can't condemn someone for cheating.

Having been on both sides of the question, I can say, that what drove me to another was catching him the second time. When we realized what we were doing we tried the counseling thing, for me to find that the reason he was "out there" was because I wasn't there when he needed me, but ne never told me he needed me, so I felt unwanted too. We talked and talked, but never resolved the issues. So, I went "out there" myself, thought I found someone who understood me and that I understood, but beneath it all was a huge amount of distrust. And the whole time we were acting on our desires as adults, cheating with consent, we forgot that we were teaching our children to disrespect themselves and others. Now we are much happier, apart, but have to find ways to correct the bad examples we set for our kids.

That said, it was never about the sex, though, it was wonderful. It was about me needing to feel special, and yes, I should have looked to myself to find that, but sometimes the only way you learn is from your mistakes. I would never recommend that someone cheat, but I also know that no matter what people say, the moment you start to wonder if you should, you are only one kiss away from how can I do this and not get caught. If you don't plan to cheat then the moment the temptation presents itself, RUN.

For those of you who say that you cannot love someone and cheat, until you have walked in the shoes of those of us who have been down this road, you should not judge. To this day, I know that I still care for my children's father, and that he still cares for me, it changes nothing for us. The decision we made stands, partially because he watched his father, uncles, and other male relatives live double lives, and does not want to see his children repeat his mistakes, and having cheated before knows that he may again, so he has no steady relationships. They (the kids) see me with one man.

We may not have been faithful, nor honest with each other in the beginning, but at the end we were, faithful, and honest to ourselves.

 

[_sticky_stuff]

TY Jaybird!

Thank you, thank you, thank you Jaybird for your honesty and candor. When people flew off re: my "Go for it" comment I was puzzeled why so many people had taken such "high moral ground" with this issue. You're so right -- no one can ever know the whole story especially not from reading a brief post.

In my case I hung out for 8+ years and never cheated. My wife, who I dolove dearly, has no interest in intimacy and until just very recently, had to interest in doing anything about it.

My recent affair is with a married woman who, like me,, is grossly underutilized but, loves her husband nonetheless and like me, has made a CHOICE to not leave at this stage.

To the "Hi Moral Grounder" who stated," Wait until his (my) wife finds out, then what?" -- truth is, when she finds out -- which she will not, she may feel hurt but, she also knows that for years I have been telling her "Take care of me and our relationship, like I do or, I'll find more creative ways to get it done."

Is that "fair?" Is it "right?" who knows. But, neglect was my driver.

Motivation to stay -- a beautiful daughter who I will not see grow up in a single-parent household. Period!

If my wife and I were battling, different story. No kid (or spouse!) should be exposed to or endure that. But that's not the case.

So to those of you who made such quick and thoughtless judgement, please think before you speak. And one question: If your marriage/primary relationship is so together, why are you hanging out in a category entitled "extramarital affairs"? Hmmmm?

 

[Scarlett_t2]

I don't believe I was being judgemental, nor do I believe many on this post where. We are stating our opnions, which I thought was the purpuse of the whole thing. As for hanging out....I read many different things this intrested me. This touched a nerve so I responded. No different than you except I do not agree, nor will I ever. I don't expect anyone to think the way I do but I as some of you have, we all have just as much right to respond as you do. I have lived that pain and he thought I would "never" find out. But I did and for awile it destoyed me. Like I said in my earlier post I don't wish that on anyone. Being with someone is not a "you" thing it is a "us" thing. That's the whole beauty of it.

Scarlett

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Ha! Don't anyone dare say that being a dishonest, lying cheat ios a bad thing!! Damn you, no, don't say it!! Fuck integrity, fuck standing by your commitments, fuck all of that, so long as you have regular orgasms!!

After all, life is all about orgasms, right?

 

[Wulf7]

Re: TY Jaybird!

To the "Hi Moral Grounder" who stated," Wait until his (my) wife finds out, then what?" -- truth is, when she finds out -- which she will not, she may feel hurt but, she also knows that for years I have been telling her "Take care of me and our relationship, like I do or, I'll find more creative ways to get it done."

Famous last words there bud. Whats that about murphy's law, never say never or hubris?




Perhaps so many took the moral high ground because they felt very strongly that way about it? A lot of people take their integrity and honor seriously.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Re: Re: TY Jaybird!

Famous last words there bud. Whats that about murphy's law, never say never or hubris?




Perhaps so many took the moral high ground because they felt very strongly that way about it? A lot of people take their integrity and honor seriously.

No, most of us passed up all the nookie, drugs, and stealing stuff just so we could lord it over people on a message board! Integrity is for suckers, I'm gonna get mine, and fuck anyone who gets hurt in the process.

 

[tendril]

I still won't judge anyone on this point.

Would I cheat ? No.

Do I know people who have ? Yes.

Look, some people end up in such abusive and dysfunctional relationships that it's a wonder they don't end up fucking murdering their so called SO, far less cheating on them.

 

[lickmeslowly]

interesting reading ................

 

[Jaybird3]

Johnny, while I understand all about the committments, the honesty, and the integrity, I feel even better knowing that at least I am not lying to myself.

I know, that just as you are not going to change my mind on this, I am not going to change yours. I pray that it never happens to you for any reason.

I think that before that "cheating" step is taken, everything else should be tried. If it all fails, then leave. But if one can't leave, (yes, there are times when legally one can't leave), then do what makes one happy.

 

[James G 5]

Re: TY Jaybird!

Motivation to stay -- a beautiful daughter who I will not see grow up in a single-parent household. Period!

If my wife and I were battling, different story. No kid (or spouse!) should be exposed to or endure that. But that's not the case.

And what do you think the kid will be exposed to if/when your wife finds out? And make no mistake, spouses often DO find out. I know of at least 3 couples personally IRL who made decisions to stay "together" under one roof but live seperate lives so they could both be there for the kids when they got to a point like you reached, and then split when the kids were in their late teens. AT least there was honesty there. And make no mistake, if/when you're caught cheating, adultery CAN come up as a factor for reliability in custody. Women have an automatic advantage in custody cases and your cheating might not onl;y keep you from joing custody but even cut back on your visitation.
Claiming "I'm being dishonest for my kid"...If this all comes out in th eopen, what kind of example are you setting for her?
Being a parent is about SACRIFICE. I'm the FIRST one to say sex is one of our strongest needs/drives. That's part of why I don't believe monogamy is generally a good idea. But plenty of people can and do give up sex for long periods. Part of the reaso (a LARGE part!) of why there're so many screwed up young people out there today is the number of selfish parents who aren't willing to give things up & sacrifice for the kids. Saying "I'm staying for my kid, and being a liar and cheat to stay" is so disingenuous....ugh.
As for some of us being "moral high grounders", many of us have been thru bad spots and I dont' see any of us claiming to be perfect. I think we're all just saying there're certain standards of morality and an issue of honor & giving your word. You gave your word. Period. All the justification in the world after that is pretty much meaningless. Stand by your word or change your situation.
You say you told your wife to take care of you & your relationship...did YOU do everything you could? Why didnt' you tell her "I dont' feel you did your part, I will need to have my needs met elsewhere"?

Ugha. I could go on & on about this, and I doubt I will change your mind. But this rant sure made me feel better.

Think about the example you're setting for your kid tho. Using her as an excuse is just low.

 

[Jaybird3]

Thank you James G.

That is the one reason that I have never accepted for staying in a marriage because of the effect that it will have on the children. Not to mention for all that adults think that they are hiding the tension and the stress of a bad marriage from children, they really are not.

Best to separate, see if the marriage is salvagable and if not, then for the kid/ kids sake, get out.

 

[James G 5]

Thank you James G.

That is the one reason that I have never accepted for staying in a marriage because of the effect that it will have on the children. Not to mention for all that adults think that they are hiding the tension and the stress of a bad marriage from children, they really are not.

Best to separate, see if the marriage is salvagable and if not, then for the kid/ kids sake, get out.

Yup...I am a big believer in "Harm none" (and before anyone says anything, consensual BDSM play is not harm, I don't care if I am smacking someone with a cane ...That's a whole other issue )
My issue with cheating is that you are harming first YOURSELF by violating your word (both karmically and on some deep mental/emotional level) and setting the others involved up for harm. Second, bad as a relationship might be, it's still going to hurt the other person/persons involved if when an affair ends or is discovered. And third, as you said, kids are a LOT more perceptive than people give them credit for and setting up this sort of colossal relationship explosion will only make things worse for the kids and make you a worse person in their eyes.

 

[Jaybird3]

While I agree with everything that you said, I just still can't condemn someone for cheating, at least not until I know enough about the situation to make what I think is informed decision.

 

[midwestyankee]

While I agree with everything that you said, I just still can't condemn someone for cheating, at least not until I know enough about the situation to make what I think is informed decision.

Jaybird, I'm not sure I made myself entirely clear in my earlier post. Let me try again.

I believe that for our lives to have the most possible meaning, we have to live according to unchanging standards.

I believe that when we take marriage vows we are making a public statement to society that we intend to live our lives according to the standards written into those vows. When I got married, I vowed to remain faithful to my wife. I also vowed to cherish her in good times and bad, in sickness and health.

If my wife came down with a disabling, painful and lingering disease and I consistently ignored her care so I could watch my favorite football games or go out to play cards with the guys, I'd be breaking one of those vows. And you would probably call me a callous, selfish bastard for doing so if you knew about it. Wouldn't you?

Why not he same with cheating?

 

[Jaybird3]

Midwestyankee, having been there and done in the scenerio that you describe, I most certainly would not be denying you the time away. As long as arrangements were made for her care, I would be estastic that you were taking care of you.

I will say no more on this one situation. It is just that there illnesses that do not manifest physically that can be just as disabling and just as lingering.

 

[Annora]

If having an affair....

Is so wonderful then why don't you fill a church, building and share this love with your family and friends? You did the day you took your marriage vows. You can't can you? No, you have to sneak around, lie, have secret meetings. Phone one another when the coast is clear. Perhaps when he/she is taking your children to their many outside activities.

If you really don't think having the affair won't hurt your life, the holidays are coming up invite your new love? You know the one that understands you so much better. The one that makes you feel young again. The he/she that makes you all tingling every time you meet.

There is a reason for the intrigue, the lies, the timed meetings. The phone calls. Because in your heart of hearts, you know its wrong. Its never going to be right, not when you are married.
Knowing other people that have done it, still makes no sense.

If you feel you aren't doing anything wrong, tell the world! Tell them I found this man/woman we are soul mates. Luckily our marriages weren't fulfilling enough, so we found each other at the right moment. We are in love..

How do you look in their eyes after spending time with your perfect love? You must keep lying about it, don't you?

 

[Jaybird3]

Annora, the people that need to know, do know. They just accept it and go on. At least from me they do. I am divorced, and I will never again step my foot in a church. I don't believe in monogamy, I really don't think that I ever did.

I don't do the lying, the phone calls to see if the coast is clear.
I have honor, ethics, morals, just like everyone else. My loved one will be spending the holidays with me. I don't sneak around and neither does he. It is all out in the open.

Just that here you have to be separated a year to even have the courts consider a divorce or dissolutionment. And don't even think about getting a divorce, (unless you want to spend thousands of dollars and next 3 to 5 years fighting), if there is any kind of a mental issue with the spouse.

That is why I don't condemn cheaters right off the bat. I have several friends in various states that have the same problem. They can't get divorced...the state won't allow it. Not without financially ruining them first.