Afraid of being seen as gay, are you?

[sweetnpetite]

On a personal note. I am entirely disgusted and just reviled by the idea of extremes like racism and homophobia. Truly. One cannot be a good logician or philosopher or Catholic and tolerate those kinds of hatred. I think it an amazing cop-out to call people who are violently anti-gay or homophobic "just crazy".

"Its just their psychological framework out of whack", "It's just an inner self realization complex", "Its just confronting their own sexuality". Sometimes, people need to have the balls to say "There's nothing wrong with them... they're just being jerkoffs, they're being hate-mongers, they're being racists and homophobes because they choose to".

There is phychologically something wrong with people who are hatemongers, weather it is for power or something esle, and those who live to make others miserable. It might not rise to the level of a phycosis, but it's not precisely healthy or 'mentally right' either.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

On a personal note. I am entirely disgusted and just reviled by the idea of extremes like racism and homophobia. Truly. One cannot be a good logician or philosopher or Catholic and tolerate those kinds of hatred. I think it an amazing cop-out to call people who are violently anti-gay or homophobic "just crazy".

"Its just their psychological framework out of whack", "It's just an inner self realization complex", "Its just confronting their own sexuality". Sometimes, people need to have the balls to say "There's nothing wrong with them... they're just being jerkoffs, they're being hate-mongers, they're being racists and homophobes because they choose to".

It's that easy? Wow! I didn't know that.

All right. As of today, I hate straight white guys. I didn't hate them yesterday, but I have chosen to hate them today. Whenever I see a white man being openly hetereosexual, I will gather a group of guys to beat him to death with baseball bats and laugh. Then I will cut off his dick with a broken beer bottle. It's all part of who I choose to hate and has nothing to do with either a closet heterosexuality or a feeling that they broaden the concept of gender in a way I feel uncomfortable with and threatens my non-masculinity.

Meanwhile, in reality....

Listen Joe, you seem to enjoy arguing about shit you don't understand because you're too wrapped up in its web. What exactly is the all-purpose reason that homophobes just happen to "choose" to hate gay people? If it is not an uncomfortability about one's own gender or sexuality or a fear of being treated like the sexual obect they treat women as, what is it? What drives them to demand a total eradication of gay people? What makes them want to ban them from enjoying the rights and privileges of straight people? You're surrounded by homophobes as you said and you share a tiny piece of the fear portion in your "uncomfortableness", so why don't you enlighten us instead of playing the same old "I took a logic class" bullshit game you always do when you're talking out your ass?

Don't mean to be harsh about it, but kind aint gonna cut it. You need to be shook into responding like an adult male before some gothapotamous punches your lights out and removes your spleen.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by sweetnpetite
There is phychologically something wrong with people who are hatemongers, weather it is for power or something esle, and those who live to make others miserable. It might not rise to the level of a phycosis, but it's not precisely healthy or 'mentally right' either.

There isn't anything necessarily wrong, psychologically, with people who are hatemongers. It may be that hatemongering is a natural state. Don't know. Can't assert it.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
It's that easy? Wow! I didn't know that.

I'm not suprised at yet another thing you don't know. (see, this is why we shouldn't start with the sarcasm and shit)

Listen Joe, you seem to enjoy arguing about shit you don't understand because you're too wrapped up in its web. What exactly is the all-purpose reason that homophobes just happen to "choose" to hate gay people?

Which is remarkable, as the case is that I do understand the things we're talking about very well. What their reason is? I don't really know. It could be a number of things, really, ranging from insensible hatred to fear to brain chemistry to psychological malfunction. As we don't know what the reason is (or even if there is only one), we can't say that one /is/ the reason. Such has been my point from the beginning.

If it is not an uncomfortability about one's own gender or sexuality or a fear of being treated like the sexual obect they treat women as, what is it?

Possibly? It could be the same as someone's hatred of other nationalities or races (click on the article link I provided above to get a sense of Psychology work into that theory). It could be a number of things.

You're surrounded by homophobes as you said and you share a tiny piece of the fear portion in your "uncomfortableness", so why don't you enlighten us instead of playing the same old "I took a logic class" bullshit game you always do when you're talking out your ass?

Actually, I took and currently teach Logic--to make it accurate. But that's neither here nor there, really.

I never said I was "surrounded by homophobes". Where do you get that? Are /you/ talking out of /your/ ass now? Tsk.

You need to be shook into responding like an adult male before some gothapotamous punches your lights out and removes your spleen.

Gothopomtamai... *shudder*

(I'm thinking maybe if I start loosening up and responding more humanly on the level of those directly interacting with me... it'll sink in better. But honestly, the whole "being a jackass with personal attacks and offensive sarcasms" thing doesn't sit well with me. I don't like their level very much.)

 

[Belegon]

At this point I would have to say it is just as likely I will wake up in bed with Liar, Gauche or Joe as it is I will wake up in bed with Cloudy, Honey123, Lucky, CharleyH or Abs.

I can, however, promise that I will never wake up in bed next to Amicus.

I think I need to amend this statement. I believe I can truthfully say that it is much more likely that I will end up in bed with CharleyH, Cloudy, Honey123, Lucky, Abs, Liar or Gauche than it is that I would ever end up in bed with Joe.

Except perhaps if I eat something late at night that gives me nightmares.

I'm sure Joe feels the same way I do about this. For once.

 

[Belegon]

But honestly, the whole "being a jackass with personal attacks and offensive sarcasms" thing doesn't sit well with me. I don't like their level very much.

I truly find it hard to believe this statement was made. Wow.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Belegon
I'm sure Joe feels the same way I do about this. For once.

Your dick is somewhere just between "thirty feet of greased razorblade" and "naked re-entry into the atmosphere".

 

[Belegon]

Your dick is somewhere just between "thirty feet of greased razorblade" and "naked re-entry into the atmosphere".

I'm pleased you speak so highly of my abilities to cause you discomfort.

Actually, though it may surprise you at this point, I am heterosexual. So I am not exactly seeking an appointment with your privates either.

 

[gauchecritic]

I'm pleased you speak so highly of my abilities to cause you discomfort.

Actually, though it may surprise you at this point, I am heterosexual. So I am not exactly seeking an appointment with your privates either.

*cough-cough* ditto.

Gauche

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I think I need to amend this statement. I believe I can truthfully say that it is much more likely that I will end up in bed with CharleyH, Cloudy, Honey123, Lucky, Abs, Liar or Gauche than it is that I would ever end up in bed with Joe.

I'm glad I made the list.

 

[CharleyH]

I'm glad I made the list.

Me too kind of like being on Forbes' or David Letterman's.

 

[cloudy]

I'm glad I made the list.

Me too.

 

[Belegon]

OK, I have just been paid three major compliments by three women I admire and desire... I think today will be a good day...



a kiss and a rose for each of you. ~~blush~~

 

[Liar]

...more likely that I will end up in bed with CharleyH, Cloudy, Honey123, Lucky, Abs, Liar or Gauche

Can't you change that to CharleyH, Cloudy, Honey123, Lucky, Abs, Liar and Gauche? That's a party I wouldn't want to miss.

#L

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Can't you change that to CharleyH, Cloudy, Honey123, Lucky, Abs, Liar and Gauche? That's a party I wouldn't want to miss.

#L

Where's this party? I wanna make sure I have the right day and time.

 

[TheEarl]

I am aware that on occasions I do come across as a little bit of a tit when I enter discussions in this fashion, bleating on about "Both sides have validity" and "Can't we all just get along?" But I feel moved to say something on this discourse.

For God's sake be nice! Joe is actually making a perfectly valid point. He personally believes that not every homophobe is motivated by insecurity in their own sexuality. He has at no point claimed to support homophobes (in fact referring to them as jerkoffs) and, although he's admitted a personal uneasiness when it comes to male homosexuality, he has not shown signs of real homophobia. Yet a lot of you are laying into him like he's a personal disciple of Satan. It could just as well be argued that your Joe-ophobia is down to your deep-rooted insecurities about your arguments (said very tongue-in-cheek, before I'm lambasted).

Joe is making a very pedantic point, I'll admit and I'm not sure it's one I agree with. However, the fact that you disagree with him is no reason to get nasty.

Can't we all just get along? [/homily]

The Earl

PS. What's a 'stone fox' and a 'gothapotamus'?

 

[gauchecritic]

The Earl

PS. What's a 'stone fox' and a 'gothapotamus'?

Inelegant and laddish (=sexist) terms for specific populist female identities.

Stone Fox = Samantha (in her page 3 days)

Gothopotamus = Dawn French (as a Goth)

Is it any wonder The? (re- deep seated insecurity)

Gauche

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I'm not suprised at yet another thing you don't know. (see, this is why we shouldn't start with the sarcasm and shit)



Which is remarkable, as the case is that I do understand the things we're talking about very well. What their reason is? I don't really know. It could be a number of things, really, ranging from insensible hatred to fear to brain chemistry to psychological malfunction. As we don't know what the reason is (or even if there is only one), we can't say that one /is/ the reason. Such has been my point from the beginning.



Possibly? It could be the same as someone's hatred of other nationalities or races (click on the article link I provided above to get a sense of Psychology work into that theory). It could be a number of things.



Actually, I took and currently teach Logic--to make it accurate. But that's neither here nor there, really.

I never said I was "surrounded by homophobes". Where do you get that? Are /you/ talking out of /your/ ass now? Tsk.



Gothopomtamai... *shudder*

(I'm thinking maybe if I start loosening up and responding more humanly on the level of those directly interacting with me... it'll sink in better. But honestly, the whole "being a jackass with personal attacks and offensive sarcasms" thing doesn't sit well with me. I don't like their level very much.)

1) You mistakenly think that sarcasm in some way bothers me. I like sarcasm and find sardonic wit to be one of the IMO highest forms of wit. Personally, I think you could do with some sarcasm in your posts. So, by all means use me as a target. I set myself up beautifully and don't get offended easily (though you will know when I do).

2) I'm sorry for being brusque. In truth, you were coming off like you often do, dismissing the whole premise because it was not complete. I don't pretend to know the reason for every homophobe's reason for hating gays. Only the reasons so far shown to me repeatably in personal observation and correlated with other personal observations. This is the layman's world of discussion and is typical format for a pub-like forum as this is. You often act like this should be an academic publication and it aint. It's a bunch of guys, gals, and trans in a pub-like atmosphere, discussing whatever as someone sends up the shout.

In that vain, as I have seen, irrational hate stems from either the hated reminding the hater of a bad memory. If someone was violently beaten up by a black man, that person may have an irrational hatred of all black men in the future. This case is not always violent and in my observations has been less violent than the second case. The second case is that the hated reminds the hater of something they hate about themselves or what they fear ever becoming. This is the hate that is, as I have seen it, most violent. The people who have posed themselves the most to show their masculinity are the most likely to wail on a gay man until he dies. This is what I have seen. I haven't seen much of the brain chemistry one or the others you mentioned. This is why I personally favor the initial reasons. The correlation in other people's personal observations makes me think the reason has validity and why your dismissal sounded well...like a dismissal, a standard Joe treatment of the part as either the whole and dismissing the whole as flawed or dismissing the part for being a part only no matter how big of the whole it might be. Perhaps you can work on that so we can avoid these little bumps on the highway of discourse.

3) Yeah, it could be that, but what I've seen shows that to only be a small part of their hatred. I'm not saying the traditional xenophobia is not a factor nor may it not be the only factor, only that I haven't seen it yet as a major factor in a majority of cases.

4) Kudos for Logic. As I stated above, logic is fine and dandy and all, but you gotta remember that this is a pub discussion at heart. Anecdotal evidence is king here. My off-hand comment was about how annoying it seems to many of us to be halfway through an anecodotal pub discussion about something and be interrupted by an angry request to change this word around and use a different source to conform to academic logic standards. Especially when the main point they were making turns out to not be affected by the semantic or logic debate. The endless loops degenerating into logic trees is what is making people like me get sardonic about your logic.

I do hope your professional student work goes well, on the other hand. I am pursuing my own phD and know any pursuit takes intelligence. (It's not your intelligence I have a problem with. In fact, it's because you're intelligent, that I sometimes break down and yell at you like I did. The way you use your intelligence needs to evolve). I made the comment about "surrounded by homophobes" because you mentioned the emphatic debating of the issue of homosexuality in your class and you insinuated that at least some of that number were homophobic in nature. Perhaps I took this insinuation incorrectly and thus accidentally made a disparaging comment (as in insinuating your circle of friends were homophobes, an insinuation I emphatically deny by the way). If I did so, I apologize.

5) Hey, I had to attack the gothopotamai point. I had about four friends in high school that could be considered gothopotamais. One was a dyke who listened to a lot of Marilyn Manson. Another is my best female friend to this day and a practicing Wicca (which is why I joined that debate despite my personal restriction on joining religion threads). The other two were those type of one-class friends you never see again. The dyke carried a punch that could knock an elephant out and had a chip on her shoulder so big that even the football jock fuckers stayed away from her. She spent most of her time as the bodygaurd of the tiny group of 'out' students at my school. Since I'm not a superficial guy, I really got into what was inside their minds and found people worth spending time with (see my comment about one being my best female friend).

As far as being a jackass, I wouldn't dream of letting you copy my style , though I do agree you need to become human in the deabtes. Perhaps if you thought of this forum as a pub get-together, you'd come off right. Perhaps also you could have time to actually make your points instead of being trapped in your own endless loops over whether this word should mean this or that or whether something being a part rather than a whole invalidates its use as a frame of debate.

Hey, think of it as a way to strengthen the delineation between school and life. In the lab, I'm logical to a fault. Out of the lab, well...you can see what a swearing jackass monkey son-of-a-whore I am and also how much I love the chaotic styles and upfront styles. I admit I have...help, in that respect, but you need to at least somewhat make that delineation.






Anyhoo, that's my 12 and a half Canadian cents worth. Sorry if sometimes I have to act like a fucker around you to get you in the right mood to listen and sorry if you hate sarcasm (it's just the way I am). And if you ever change your mind about guys, I'll suck your dick to make up for it (put down the bat, I'm just kidding).

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

The way you use your intelligence needs to evolve

Funny, I think the same of you.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Funny, I think the same of you.

Good. I hate static intelligence.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Good. I hate static intelligence.

And I'm not terribly fond of of the poor reasoning sort.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

And I'm not terribly fond of of the poor reasoning sort.

Oh, I reason fine. I just don't feel I have to dress it all up in kind words and geometric proofs to show off my head-u-cat-ion. I don't mind logic (hell I even use it myself sometimes ), but there is something about going overboard.

By the way, the comment was me taking your veiled insult as a cmpliment, not me giving you an insult. The fact I have to explain this is why I write posts sometimes that are overtly sardonical and assholic.

While I'm on the subject, the head-u-cat-ion is a non-sequitur and is in no part intended as an insult unto you the party hereafter known as Joe the Wordsworth. (Yeah, having to write disclaimers in the post itself is kind of a royal pain.) On an off-topic, doesn't education just sound better when pronounced the non-sequitur way?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Oh, I reason fine. I just don't feel I have to dress it all up in kind words and geometric proofs to show off my head-u-cat-ion. I don't mind logic (hell I even use it myself sometimes ), but there is something about going overboard.

By the way, the comment was me taking your veiled insult as a cmpliment, not me giving you an insult. The fact I have to explain this is why I write posts sometimes that are overtly sardonical and assholic.

While I'm on the subject, the head-u-cat-ion is a non-sequitur and is in no part intended as an insult unto you the party hereafter known as Joe the Wordsworth. (Yeah, having to write disclaimers in the post itself is kind of a royal pain.) On an off-topic, doesn't education just sound better when pronounced the non-sequitur way?

M'k

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

M'k

Joe, buddy, friend, lover...how do we always end up like this? What are we doing? Having an academic pissing contest? Measuring up each others diplomas in the grad locker room? Let's be amicable, but not amicus. Here, I'll even concede so your masculinity is all the more enhanced.

Your diploma is long, my diploma is long. Now let's spit shine both of them, smoke a fag, and hitch a ride to the Bahamas to sip mai-tais on the beach surrounded by bikini-clad women. Whad'ya say Joey?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Originally posted by Lucifer_Carroll
Joe, buddy, friend, lover...how do we always end up like this? What are we doing? Having an academic pissing contest? Measuring up each others diplomas in the grad locker room? Let's be amicable, but not amicus. Here, I'll even concede so your masculinity is all the more enhanced.

Your diploma is long, my diploma is long. Now let's spit shine both of them, smoke a fag, and hitch a ride to the Bahamas to sip mai-tais on the beach surrounded by bikini-clad women. Whad'ya say Joey?

I like bikinis.