Am I out of my mind for finding this offensive?

[shy slave]

No Santa Claus in the Bible !!!
* faints in shock at the revelation lol*

 

[Xelebes]

Ok, so if these people believe that halloween is satanic, then why is it ok to celebrate it at all? Is it only ok to be satanic Mon - Sat?

And on my own little rant, techincally the lords day is SATURDAY. That was the seventh day. It was a person, not God, who changed it to sunday. I guess the idea was that since Jesus rose on a Sunday . . . you get the idea. Anyway that's my little rant.

Also, KC, that's why halloween is called all hallows EVE. Rather like Christmas Eve.

Sunday was the day of the Roman sun god. Can't remember his name... I know it was Helios in Greek mythology. Now, not remembering the Roman Caesar who changed the official religion to Christianity, he kept Sunday as the holy day instead of changing it to Saturday.

I think Hallowe'en would be very very appropriate for a Sunday, looking at the history of it.

 

[Xelebes]

Actually a lot of our religious holidays have been paganized. Yes, Jesus was born in the spring. Back during the time that they were 'converting' the celts, they were having problems, cause the celts had a celebration ever winter and spring (winter and summer solstice), and they were refusing to give up their holiday. So the church made the holidays of that day have spiritual meaning (Christmas and Easter). Another thing about Christmas is the tree. It used to be, that the Germans (I think it's the Germans) would worship the tree during 'Christmas', and put candles on it, and decorations. So it's been added to our celebration. And I'm pretty sure their's no mention of Santa Clause in the bible.

As for Easter, what's up with the bunny? If Easter is the celebration of Jesus rising from the dead . . . The truth of the matter is that bunnies, eggs, and spring represent fertility. They were all part of the Spring Solstice celebration, in the hopes that it would bring fertility to the crops and women. We just added the bit about Jesus rising, and started having the celebration about the time that Jesus would have risen.

Ok, now that everyone's eyes are twirling, you may go back to your regular scheduled programming.

Christmas Tree (Tannenbaum) was a spruce tree or an oak tree, can't remember which one and it was indeed from German roots.

The Easter Bunny actually comes from Egyptian mythological roots, something to do with fertility of the springtime or something. Infact, the Easter Egg was from Egyptian roots too, I believe.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

Sunday was the day of the Roman sun god. Can't remember his name... I know it was Helios in Greek mythology. Now, not remembering the Roman Caesar who changed the official religion to Christianity, he kept Sunday as the holy day instead of changing it to Saturday.

I think Hallowe'en would be very very appropriate for a Sunday, looking at the history of it.

The name of that Caesar would be Constantine, who also went and defaced the monuments of past emperors in order to use parts of the reliefs on his monuments. He just took the head off the emperor's body in the old reliefs and had his added in.

Actually a lot of our religious holidays have been paganized.

Not to be picky but couldn't that also be said the other way around? It does get rather odd when I have some of the more historically ignorant Christians tell me that we're usurping their holiday. They simply refuse to believe that we were celebrating a holiday then before they were and the two happen to be on the same day (usually due to methods intended to aid conversion). I am not trying to point fingers at anyone on this board, after all you've all certainly been open-minded about the existence and validity of other religions in the world. I just get so tired of people that claim to be "good Christians" appropriating any day they like as belonging to their religion and therefore to no one else's.
I mean, please, someone contact nature and let it know that no solstice, equinox, or other seasonal event is to be allowed to occur on a Sunday because we all know that pagans celebrate those days and there shouldn't be heathen celebration on God's day of rest. I'm still trying to figure out how Halloween, which began as Catholic, is satanic. I don't think that most of the Christians (mostly ignorant Protestants) around here have actually ever heard or Samhain so I don't think they're really protesting a pagan holiday.
I don't mean to sound angry. I'm really not. Ignorance just gets on my nerves and I don't think it's any excuse to discriminate.

Again, I'm not pointing fingers, especially not at you, graceanne. It was just that the phrase in your post made me think of that.

 

[lorddragonwolf]

The name of that Caesar would be Constantine, who also went and defaced the monuments of past emperors in order to use parts of the reliefs on his monuments. He just took the head off the emperor's body in the old reliefs and had his added in.



Not to be picky but couldn't that also be said the other way around? It does get rather odd when I have some of the more historically ignorant Christians tell me that we're usurping their holiday. They simply refuse to believe that we were celebrating a holiday then before they were and the two happen to be on the same day (usually due to methods intended to aid conversion). I am not trying to point fingers at anyone on this board, after all you've all certainly been open-minded about the existence and validity of other religions in the world. I just get so tired of people that claim to be "good Christians" appropriating any day they like as belonging to their religion and therefore to no one else's.
I mean, please, someone contact nature and let it know that no solstice, equinox, or other seasonal event is to be allowed to occur on a Sunday because we all know that pagans celebrate those days and there shouldn't be heathen celebration on God's day of rest. I'm still trying to figure out how Halloween, which began as Catholic, is satanic. I don't think that most of the Christians (mostly ignorant Protestants) around here have actually ever heard or Samhain so I don't think they're really protesting a pagan holiday.
I don't mean to sound angry. I'm really not. Ignorance just gets on my nerves and I don't think it's any excuse to discriminate.

Again, I'm not pointing fingers, especially not at you, graceanne. It was just that the phrase in your post made me think of that.

most christains and catholics dont care and refuse to believe that many of there religious beliefs can be traced to pagan rituals or beliefs. they feel if they can not change it then it must be evil or satanic. i have friends who are wicca. and according to what people believe i as a christain should not be friends with them. also i should not be here in this site because it it also against "rules" to view pornography and such sexual material.

 

[graceanne]

LOL I give. It was badly put. I think that the rest of my post goes to show that I know that pagan holidays have been christianized. That's what I meant, that all of our holidays have pagan roots.

That's cool, about the egyptian. My grandma and mom told me it was the celts, but they have been known to be wrong, and I'm not certain enough of my facts to argue it. You all get my point, that not just halloween has pagan roots, and you don't see them having a cow about them being on sunday. Heck, people insist that Easter is on Sunday.

 

[dolf]

The Easter Bunny actually comes from Egyptian mythological roots, something to do with fertility of the springtime or something. Infact, the Easter Egg was from Egyptian roots too, I believe.

the Easter bunny is actually the English hare, which is a sacred animal. the eggs are because hares breed in the same areas that lapwings(I think) breed in. the leverets appeared as the eggs hatched so they assumed that the two were connected.
ok, I'll shut up now
xx

 

[graceanne]

most christains and catholics dont care and refuse to believe that many of there religious beliefs can be traced to pagan rituals or beliefs. they feel if they can not change it then it must be evil or satanic. i have friends who are wicca. and according to what people believe i as a christain should not be friends with them. also i should not be here in this site because it it also against "rules" to view pornography and such sexual material.

That's such bull. I'm a christian, and I've read the bible, and you know who jesus hung out with? It sure wasn't the saved. He hung out with prostitutes, and tax collectors. The scum of their society.

 

[graceanne]

the Easter bunny is actually the English hare, which is a sacred animal. the eggs are because hares breed in the same areas that lapwings(I think) breed in. the leverets appeared as the eggs hatched so they assumed that the two were connected.
ok, I'll shut up now
xx

see? that's what my mom said, that it's from the english area, from before the normans took over england.

 

[Xelebes]

the Easter bunny is actually the English hare, which is a sacred animal. the eggs are because hares breed in the same areas that lapwings(I think) breed in. the leverets appeared as the eggs hatched so they assumed that the two were connected.
ok, I'll shut up now
xx

I concede, that may be the case but I also there is a deeper connection with the Egyptians as evidenced by immigration patterns in the Egyptian empires have brought Egyptians to the British Isles, prompting the sanctity of the hare/rabbit whatever.

 

[SweetDommes]

Christmas Tree (Tannenbaum) was a spruce tree or an oak tree, can't remember which one and it was indeed from German roots.

The Easter Bunny actually comes from Egyptian mythological roots, something to do with fertility of the springtime or something. Infact, the Easter Egg was from Egyptian roots too, I believe.

um ... maybe this is just me ... but since a "tannenbaum" is an evergreen ... I'm thinking that oak is not an option ... it is, indeed, a spruce or fir tree (I thought it was a fir, not a spruce, but I could be wrong ... but I do know that it is definately NOT an oak ...).

And pretty much every single Christian "tradition" has it's roots somewhere prior to Christianity ... most of them are melds of different "pegan" rituals/beliefs from many different areas ... and times - but like someone else said, most (not all ... but you must admit that most) Christians don't wish to know this. When Christianity first started, it's a known fact that many Christan Holy Days were arranged to be close to when the pegan celebrations would be - thus Christmas is the 25th instead of actually on winter solstice on the 21st or 22nd. Others, too, have been placed so as to make the 'conversion' of the pegans easier.

 

[FungiUg]

All of our holidays have pagan roots.

Okay, not all. "Holiday" is basically derived from "Holy day". All Saints Day is a very christian holy day. And that's what All Hallow's Eve (Halloween) is about.

Also, Easter is a merging of yes, a pagan celebration along with the Jewish passover. You could argue that one either way.

Technically, they're not all pagan either. Not all non-christians are pagans. Paganism is actually a group of (related) beliefs, and includes wiccanism, druidism and the like.

A big chunk of the "christian" traditions come from merging with Mithraic traditions (a roman sun-god religion) and from the "Isis" roots (there are a whole set of "goddess" related religions of which Isis is one of the better known.) Neither of those two religions are pagan (well, you could argue some of the pagan religions are goddess focussed.)

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

Hmm, my take on the Egypt/England Easter controversy....

As a group, pagan religions tend toward worship and ritual based upon natural cycles and what is observed as properties of the natural world. This is why so many different groups from so many places that had never met each other all seemed to celebrate the solstices and the equinoxes.
Also when looking at pantheistic/polytheistic cultures (those that had more than one god), you see many similarities in what the gods control. It is not that these societies all came from a race of aliens and split off into different groups and decided to keep the gods but change the names; it is because most of those things that are controlled by a deity are central to human life and therefore are considered more important. Most of these things are rather universal to human notice (i.e. the sun, the moon, fertility, war, wisdom, craft, etc) and are shared as values by societies that would never have had a chance to influence each other.
Knowing all of this, I do not find it unbelievable that two thriving cultures like Ancient Egypt and Celtic Britain could not have both had ritual beliefs centered around the hare and the egg. Both are obvious natural symbols of new life and fertility and therefore signs of spring.
As to the origins, I really don't know much about the Easter symbols, though I do know that the word itself is remarkably similar to the word for a sring holiday in another "heathen" belief system. Go figure. As has been stated before, the early Christians took on many symbols and dates from other religions in the name of simpler conversion. It was easy for most pagan cultures to accept the Christian god as one more of many and to accept the fact that other people believed in other gods beyond that. This is one of the many reasons why the Christian missionaries would use the symbols/ritual dates of that culture to bring the Christian life closer to that of the new group of converts-to-be. Once the new god was accepted it was easier to convince the people that that god was the only true god.

As a side note, another tactic was to go to the leader (king) of an area and convince him that Christianity would help keep better control of his kingdom. This was mainly true because the thought of an afterlife where the weak and obedient were rewarded would keep the peasants from revolting against tyrants. Besides it's not like the illiterate populace really knew what the Bible said, they only knew what the leaders and holy men told them. If the king agreed then he could bring his people to convert easier than the missionaries could. This was a particularly good tactic in Germany and Scandinavia.

Yeah, I'm getting long winded.....just one of those days I guess. Thanks for putting up with me.

Disclaimer: No, I do not hate Christians or Christianity. I have many many good friends that are Christians. I do get rather peeved with people that call themselves Christians and then do things that are completely against every tenant in the Bible and think that going to church for an hour or two on Sunday is going to fix it. Hypocrites annoy me. I am not aiming anything I say at the people on this board unless it is specified that way. You are all wonderfully open-minded people and I truly appreciate you for it.

Ok, that is all.

 

[graceanne]

Okay, not all. "Holiday" is basically derived from "Holy day". All Saints Day is a very christian holy day. And that's what All Hallow's Eve (Halloween) is about.

Also, Easter is a merging of yes, a pagan celebration along with the Jewish passover. You could argue that one either way.

Technically, they're not all pagan either. Not all non-christians are pagans. Paganism is actually a group of (related) beliefs, and includes wiccanism, druidism and the like.

True enough, I'm using the word 'pagan' rather loosely.

A big chunk of the "christian" traditions come from merging with Mithraic traditions (a roman sun-god religion) and from the "Isis" roots (there are a whole set of "goddess" related religions of which Isis is one of the better known.) Neither of those two religions are pagan (well, you could argue some of the pagan religions are goddess focussed.)

I did know that, but I didn't want to get into specifics of what holiday is a cross of what. That could take forever.

 

[FungiUg]

The interesting thing is that the Hebrew religion is an outgrowth of the Sumarian "Ur" religion... and in the original split, Yhwh had a female counterpart! Yup, a god and goddess.

The concept of the "three part" god (god the father, god the son, god the holy spirit) in turn is from a melding of Greek philosophy with Jesus' teachings.

So one of the great monotheistic beliefs, christianity, is in fact founded in polytheism.

it's all kinda fascinating!

 

[Xelebes]

The interesting thing is that the Hebrew religion is an outgrowth of the Sumarian "Ur" religion... and in the original split, Yhwh had a female counterpart! Yup, a god and goddess.

The concept of the "three part" god (god the father, god the son, god the holy spirit) in turn is from a melding of Greek philosophy with Jesus' teachings.

So one of the great monotheistic beliefs, christianity, is in fact founded in polytheism.

it's all kinda fascinating!

Yahweh (or Yhwh as how you typed it) was originally a war god, thus explaining the fight between Abraham and Yahweh. Yahweh himself was from the Sumerian Pantheon (I'll use the word Pantheon loosely here.) and that in fact the Hebrew were simply mountain shepherds who were embroiled in a conflict with the people residing in the valleys.

I read this somewhere - might want to contact Dr. Mabeuse for a more cohent and more reliable explanation here.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

Okay, not all. "Holiday" is basically derived from "Holy day". All Saints Day is a very christian holy day. And that's what All Hallow's Eve (Halloween) is about.

Also, Easter is a merging of yes, a pagan celebration along with the Jewish passover. You could argue that one either way.

Technically, they're not all pagan either. Not all non-christians are pagans. Paganism is actually a group of (related) beliefs, and includes wiccanism, druidism and the like.

A big chunk of the "christian" traditions come from merging with Mithraic traditions (a roman sun-god religion) and from the "Isis" roots (there are a whole set of "goddess" related religions of which Isis is one of the better known.) Neither of those two religions are pagan (well, you could argue some of the pagan religions are goddess focussed.)

Ok, time I pulled out the dictionary. According to Webster's New World College Dictionary a pagan is "a person who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew." By this definition, all religions that are not Abrahamic are pagan religions. This includes Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Shinto, as well as the "normal" pagan religions like Wicca, Hellenism, and Kemeticism.
You are, however, completely correct that pagans are not a homogeneous group. This is why the question, "What is Paganism?" is often, unfortunately, answered negatively by saying what it is not. There are also distinctions made by people that are members of pagan religions as to subgroups they are a part of, such as "heathen," ""reconstructionist," "Neo-Pagan," "New Age," etc.. It really can get complicated and definitions rarely stay fixed from one group to another.

A final side note, the particular pagan religion that I follow includes holidays that roughly correspond in dates to Christmas and Easter (which does include eggs and rabbits in the celebration). We have two holidays that correspond in representation with Halloween but they are in the middle of October and the end of April respectively.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

The interesting thing is that the Hebrew religion is an outgrowth of the Sumarian "Ur" religion... and in the original split, Yhwh had a female counterpart! Yup, a god and goddess.

The concept of the "three part" god (god the father, god the son, god the holy spirit) in turn is from a melding of Greek philosophy with Jesus' teachings.

So one of the great monotheistic beliefs, christianity, is in fact founded in polytheism.

it's all kinda fascinating!

Polytheistic indeed. In fact a friend of mine that knows Hebrew and minored in Philosophy and Relgion told me that the words used for "god" in Genesis alternate between a feminine gender word and a plural word. Only after creation is pretty well ended does "god" become completely masculine because "he" as well as the angels were originally supposed to be without gender, both make and female at once.

Another interesting concept it the idea that the Hebrews could have gotten their later ideas of monotheism from the only precursor monotheistic religion to have been in existence, the worship of Aten by Ankhenaten in Egypt.

 

[dolf]

i like this thread, it's getting all educational. i love to learn and religion is one of my favourite topics!
more, more, more please
xx

 

[graceanne]

Ok, this is just what I believe, but . . .

I believe that God is male. The reason I believe this (from a Christian standpoint) is that the bible says that He made Adam in his image. Adam was a man. I also believe that the angels have gender, because they have names and are called 'he' and 'him' in the bible. I don't think this necessarily means that all angels are male, but the ones mentioned specifically in the bible are. On the other hand, I believe that God can be anything, so it wouldn't be that far a stretch to say that I believe He could be a woman, too. The truth is that I doubt my mind will ever be able to stretch to totally understand Him. At least not until after I'm in heaven.

As for the trinity, I'm not enough a theologan to argue it. The whole thing is rather confusing. I know that in Genesis God refers to 'Himself' as 'We' a few times. That's a lot of the basis of the whole trinity thing. *shrugs*

 

[redelicious]

Ok, this is just what I believe, but . . .

I believe that God is male. The reason I believe this (from a Christian standpoint) is that the bible says that He made Adam in his image. Adam was a man. I also believe that the angels have gender, because they have names and are called 'he' and 'him' in the bible. I don't think this necessarily means that all angels are male, but the ones mentioned specifically in the bible are. On the other hand, I believe that God can be anything, so it wouldn't be that far a stretch to say that I believe He could be a woman, too. The truth is that I doubt my mind will ever be able to stretch to totally understand Him. At least not until after I'm in heaven.

Hmm. The Bible was written by men, yes? Maybe the main character was actually made in the writers' image?

I have no idea.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Actually a lot of our religious holidays have been paganized. Yes, Jesus was born in the spring. Back during the time that they were 'converting' the celts, they were having problems, cause the celts had a celebration ever winter and spring (winter and summer solstice), and they were refusing to give up their holiday. So the church made the holidays of that day have spiritual meaning (Christmas and Easter). Another thing about Christmas is the tree. It used to be, that the Germans (I think it's the Germans) would worship the tree during 'Christmas', and put candles on it, and decorations. So it's been added to our celebration. And I'm pretty sure their's no mention of Santa Clause in the bible.

As for Easter, what's up with the bunny? If Easter is the celebration of Jesus rising from the dead . . . The truth of the matter is that bunnies, eggs, and spring represent fertility. They were all part of the Spring Solstice celebration, in the hopes that it would bring fertility to the crops and women. We just added the bit about Jesus rising, and started having the celebration about the time that Jesus would have risen.

Ok, now that everyone's eyes are twirling, you may go back to your regular scheduled programming.

Christmas trees symbolize everlasting life (evergreens). St. Nicholas is in the bible...the original santa clause i do believe.

 

[FungiUg]

Ah, but we're not discussing beliefs. We're discussing origins.

Many people believe that god is male. Many people believe that god is female. Many believe that god is genderless, or that god has many genders... and many don't believe in a god at all.

And of course, there are those that believe that god is what you make of him/her/it.

In relation to the comment about the Hebrew religion being based on a "war god" concept -- I do believe that is what it became. From memory, it was more than just that. Basically the gods reflected the roles that the genders adapted. So a warrior god was part of it, but that's a bit of a simplification.

As is, for that matter, calling the Hebrews a bunch of nomadic sheep herders. For a start, that excludes goats!

I've a bit of an issue with the dictionary definition of pagan. I think it's like the religous version of sexist or racist to label all non-christian religions as pagan! *chuckle* And of course, I know best.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

Ok, this is just what I believe, but . . .

I believe that God is male. The reason I believe this (from a Christian standpoint) is that the bible says that He made Adam in his image. Adam was a man. I also believe that the angels have gender, because they have names and are called 'he' and 'him' in the bible. I don't think this necessarily means that all angels are male, but the ones mentioned specifically in the bible are. On the other hand, I believe that God can be anything, so it wouldn't be that far a stretch to say that I believe He could be a woman, too. The truth is that I doubt my mind will ever be able to stretch to totally understand Him. At least not until after I'm in heaven.

As for the trinity, I'm not enough a theologan to argue it. The whole thing is rather confusing. I know that in Genesis God refers to 'Himself' as 'We' a few times. That's a lot of the basis of the whole trinity thing. *shrugs*

The main problem here is one of translation. In the original Hebrew the pronouns, etc used for god are gendered and plural. The translation to Latin and then English happened much later in the evolution and it was then that Yhwh became male. The angels are much the same. Originally they had no gender because they were supposed to be both. It is only later that names really come into it and even those few that are named change through the mentions of them in the Bible. According to something I saw once, there was an issue about angels with the writers of the text. The Jewish people were becoming closer to angels and moving away from Yhwh, especially during the time of exile in Babylonia. This led to the exclusion of many texts on angels in the organization of the Bible because it was thought that this would keep people from leaving Yhwh to follow a polytheistic religion based on the worship of angels. The texts that were left out are now bound and sold in bookstores as the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha, in which the angel texts are included.

Anyway, that's just the scholarly perspective from what I know. I do think that anyone is welcome to their beliefs for whatever reason and I do not intend to try and break you from those beliefs. I tend to be interested in the history of things and how they evolved into what they are and that gets me going no matter what the subject is. I look at my religion with the same scholarly evolutionary eye as any other.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

I've a bit of an issue with the dictionary definition of pagan. I think it's like the religous version of sexist or racist to label all non-christian religions as pagan! *chuckle* And of course, I know best.

I have a problem with it too, but then consider the source. Since when have dictionaries been known as accuate when it comes to anything that disagrees with the majority?

Hell, by the dictionary definition aetheists and polytheists are in the same religious category! No wonder people get confused and call me a "godless pagan." *grins* Of course I generally give my best confused look and tell them that I believe in far more gods than they do, so how can that be "godless?" Like I said, ignorance-based discrimination really gets on my nerves.