Avoiding Toxic Masculinity in BDSM

[KatieDoes]

Wow. Just wow. The irony of you, of all people, making this comment here after your performance over here throughout the thread...

Allow me to mansplain for the one and only time in my life.

Just as you have big tits and cleavage that you so ably defended there, I have big balls. You know that feeling at your last mammogram when they squished your tit between those plates? Now imagine that every time you sit down.

I have put on some weight, so my thirty-inch waist of yesteryear is gone. But, my thighs are still twenty-eight inches. Of hard muscle, which is not as forgiving as fat. Between those twenty-eight-inch thighs hangs a scrotum the approximate size of a pool ball with around the same number of nerve endings as a nipple.

Pressing my knees together will, perforce, press those thighs together. With the scrotum and contained testes between them. Ergo, the analogy of the mammogram.

In a nutshell, to paraphrase a rather bright young lady defending her breasts and exposed cleavage, "you need to accept that my ball space has not a damn thing to do with you." Or anyone else. It's not about taking up space but having to work around space that is already taken up. And I will thank you not to assume you know what I'm thinking having balls about as much as you would thank those men for not assuming they know what you are thinking possessing tits.

And, yes, this does actually fall under the heading "Toxic Femininity" and/or "Femi-Nazi." And the fact that you didn't see that, bright as you are, without having it mansplained, when I didn't need a tit-bearer to womansplain that her exposed cleavage has not a damn thing to do with me just absolutely baffles me.

Manspreading isn’t simply a man taking up the space that he requires to be comfortable. It’s the disregard for others. Larger women can take up more space than, say, an airplane seat, as well. It’s not referring to a larger than average person taking up a larger than average space. It’s the sprawling, slouching, leg extended, leaning over the armrest, arm across the back of the seat, pressing up against the person next to them posture. Apologies that my description lacked clarity.


Also, it’s not really ‘mansplaining’ to tell me how it feels to have balls.


However, should I ever use my tits to push you out of your chair, please feel free to mention that you noticed them.

 

[KatieDoes]

Of course, it's Aragorn, not Samwise or, lo and behold, Pippin.

Aragorn is a man! Be the hero, be the king! If you are a man, this has to be your goal!


Welcome to toxic masculinity 101.

All of the Tolkien characters are wonderful examples of authentic masculinity, rather than toxic masculinity.

 

[PrettyLilPussy19]

It said that when all you’ve ever known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

Toxic masculinity is the behavior of men that think they are smarter, stronger, more important, and better…. Because they’re men. So when the men that think that begin to hear people say it isn’t accurate, they get upset. They’re used to a world in which they are the center, the default, and their opinions are automatically more valid than others.

Toxic masculinity harms men as much as it harms women. It doesn’t have to rise to the level of criminality to be dangerous.

It’s really not that hard, and there’s nothing to be defensive and fragile about.

Be Aragorn, not Gaston.

I've never so instantly had a girl crush.

Of course, it's Aragorn, not Samwise or, lo and behold, Pippin.

Aragorn is a man! Be the hero, be the king! If you are a man, this has to be your goal!


Welcome to toxic masculinity 101.

TM is also harrassment when they don't get what they want. Maybe in this case someone to agree with you? It's really easy when you just let examples come prove your point.

This thread isn't at all about men vs women but men acknowledging the bad actors among them or the behaviors in themselves that might lead to serious issues down the road. I'd say a great example of NON toxic behavior is the ability to self reflect and change.

I think there has been some great points made in the thread and also a lot of defense of masculinity. Im.not attacking masculinity. I crave it. It's a must have in my partner. But masculinity is confident and doesn't need to prove itself to anyone. TM is the dick swinging, shove it down your throat (and not in a fun way) bullshit that I don't think belongs in BDSM. Or maybe I find it weak and unattractive. Who knows!?

But this thread is specifically about men/masculinity/toxic masculinity - as stated in the title. If you want to talk about women/femininity/toxic femininity, feel free to start that thread.

 

[Primalex]

But masculinity is confident and doesn't need to prove itself to anyone.

Is masculinity a lack of desire for competition?

You can be confident and competitive. These are different traits.

But this thread is specifically about men/masculinity/toxic masculinity - as stated in the title.

The thread specifically stated that toxic masculinity is promoted and aspired in the BDSM context and used as one example was for example "the need to be perceived tough". And next you talk about "shove it down your throat (and not in a fun way) bullshit".

These two things are, in my book, very, very, very different things.

Please give me an example where/how the "shove it down your throat bullshit" is promoted and aspired in the BDSM context. Or what do you actually want to get rid off that is currently promoted and aspired in the BDSM context?

 

[IrisAlthea]

if you are picking the simple things.

What about "manspreading"?

I recommend applying a version of Hanlon’s razor. Why attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by long legs, distraction or un-awareness?
Even if there might be malice and entitlement involved in some cases, I need my outrage for things that aren’t solved with ”Excuse me, I need some more room”.

Also, I don’t want men to feel the need to anxiously cower. I want women to feel free to sit comfortably and claim their personal space.

I do reserve the right to laugh at Commander Riker behaviour though.

Gosh, I wake up and there's a brand new 4-page thread!

IMHO, a big part of toxic masculinity is treating maleness in itself as the goal. There's a world of difference between the guy who wears blue because he likes blue, and the guy who wears blue because he's afraid wearing pink will make him unmanly. Or the guy who gets outraged when some other guy doesn't meet his notions of masculinity.

Stuff like this FaceBoomer meme that somebody posted in another forum recently:

(Missing the point that part of Cary Grant's appeal was that he didn't take himself terribly seriously, and was quite prepared to do non-macho things if the film required it.)

Some people are just arseholes who are comfortable with harming others, and I don't think there's anything intrinsically gendered about that.

But then there are a lot of guys who harm others and/or themselves, not because they particularly want to, but because they've absorbed the idea that this is what masculinity requires. The dad who loves his son and thinks grinding the softness out of him is a fatherly duty, no matter how miserable it makes them both. The guy who's uneasy about his mate's predatory behaviour but keeps quiet because "bros before hos".

Or the trans woman in denial who finds it easier to join the SEALs as a way of living up to that macho ideal than to walk away from it.

Or the trans guys who turn into misogynistic arseholes because they've got the idea that maleness is a package deal that requires that kind of behaviour, and that the easiest way to be accepted as "male enough" is to distance themselves from anything female-associated.

(Yes, hormones do make some difference; a lot of transmasc people going on testosterone experience increased libido and finding it harder to cry. But they don't force anybody to be an asshole.)

Attempting to tie this back in to the "in BDSM" part of the thread: does anybody remember the dude who showed up here a while back, who said he was interested in being dominated by a woman but not by another guy, because the Man Code meant he had to fight to the death sooner than bend the knee to another man? Sort of a "domination by a woman would be okay because it's Just Pretend, but domination by a man would be too real" thing.

I'm not sure how much of what he posted was real, but taking that at face value, I'd suggest that one's a pretty good example of toxic masculinity in BDSM.

Yup, the bolded.

This wasn’t really on my radar for BDSM specifically, but I have in the past called out toxic masculinity in general conversations. Things like calling out a group of women I used to work with for trying to trash a man for being a stay at home dad. They awkwardly backtracked when I asked if they’d say the same of a woman. So I suppose, simply calling it out when we see it and asking questions that make people rethink their position is a start.

Toxic masculinity hurts boys and men in so many ways. Promoting risky behavior and discouraging asking for help comes to mind. Self care being looked down upon as feminine or unmanly. The almost automatic assumption that feminine = inferior.

Sadly, I think BDSM appeals to people who hold toxic beliefs because on the surface it looks like what they think is ideal. And women can very much hold toxic beliefs that play into this as well.

Men don’t cry. Man up. Be a man. Things said to discourage boys and men from showing emotions, getting medical and mental health care, and generally taking care of themselves. It’s seriously fucked up that there are men in the world that won’t clean their own asshole because they fear it’s “gay.” Like, how did being manly get warped into THAT?

It seems the way forward is having the conversations and providing supportive environments for boys and men to learn to express themselves in more positive and constructive ways. Men have to actively participate in creating these safe spaces as well.

Great examples.

I've never so instantly had a girl crush.






TM is also harrassment when they don't get what they want. Maybe in this case someone to agree with you? It's really easy when you just let examples come prove your point.

This thread isn't at all about men vs women but men acknowledging the bad actors among them or the behaviors in themselves that might lead to serious issues down the road. I'd say a great example of NON toxic behavior is the ability to self reflect and change.

I think there has been some great points made in the thread and also a lot of defense of masculinity. Im.not attacking masculinity. I crave it. It's a must have in my partner. But masculinity is confident and doesn't need to prove itself to anyone. TM is the dick swinging, shove it down your throat (and not in a fun way) bullshit that I don't think belongs in BDSM. Or maybe I find it weak and unattractive. Who knows!?

But this thread is specifically about men/masculinity/toxic masculinity - as stated in the title. If you want to talk about women/femininity/toxic femininity, feel free to start that thread.

With all due respect, I don’t think toxic masculinity is so much about men doing something as an idea of what masculity is, that is toxic because it is restrictive and bad for men (see examples above) but also holds masculinity higher than femininity.
It is toxic because of the self-appointed guardians of the borders around masculine and feminine and because it requires both men and women to be cut down to size to fit into the one size fits nobody.
Women can be just as guilty of being the border patrol, shaming both men and women for not conforming to their ideals. Meeks had a great example.

Masculinity is confident at times but has a hard time when we keep talking about how men are always horny and at the same time stress about the need to be the great provider makes the libido leave the building. It hurts both men and their partners who tend to assume they must be at fault.

One of the things I think can be problematic in BDSM is the idea of the dominant as the hyper masculine alpha type. It is propagated by both men and women at times and makes it harder on both men and women. Because can you be dominant and not be the alpha at work or the PTA? Are you allowed to make a mistake, not just feel up to it at the moment, to be a bit silly, not be as strong…

Do you have to be sugar and spice and everything nice to be submissive or is it ok to want to eat chocholate and drink wine in jogging pants while grumpy at times or do we have a subbier than thou-patrol?

I think it helps when there is reflection, self-awareness and being able to laugh at yourself.
I think it helps to talk about the real life rather than the ideals and fantasy or at least be clear about the difference.

Calling out bad behaviour and supporting those who do helps. On the other hand, pile ons can be pretty toxic at times too.
I don’t see any easy solutions.

 

[Primalex]

If you had a son and he wanted to put on make-up or paint his nails would you say no? If you say to yourself, I would never let him put on make-up, you are conforming to rigid gender norms, this is toxic masculinity. It would be the same if you had a daughter and your wife said no, she can’t play with a GI Joe.

You really think these examples are the same?

Having your son being ostracized vs. the daughter being able to pick a favorite toy?

At least pick something where the daughter is going to be attacked by her peers, shunned by society and risks her education and career, too, and then tell me you would not try to protect her from that for the greater good.

 

[wallstreetguy]

Did anyone see the video of the guy on the NYC subway who did not defend his wife who was punched in the face? Is that what you want? The puncher or the beta who sat there and allowed that to happen.
Three times in my life, I had to put myself on the line physically for women who were complete strangers. All were in liberal enclaves, including NYC. I was the only one who did.
Maybe you want more guys like the Philly train riders who videotaped a man raping a woman. Not only did they not stop him, but took out their phones to record it.
Not one "toxic male" was there to stop it. Maybe that is what some people want, but not me. Sorry.

 

[sweettalk4u]

The examples of TM in your post above are the men who did the violence. the ones who stood by and did nothing are cowards...not toxic masculinity types.

From what I've gathered from the previous pages, no one is saying they want men to become quiet and meek and unseen. Masculinity in and of itself is something good, be a stand up guy, do the right thing, help out people who need it (not just women, this isnt a damsel in distress situation), if you see something bad going down, step in! Do those things!
The flipside of that is dont be afraid to be your genuine self, to connect with people and not hide behind a facade of " I'm a man so I must be tough and never show emotion!"

Yes. People not being honest and genuine keeps relationships from getting off the ground

 

[KatieDoes]

Did anyone see the video of the guy on the NYC subway who did not defend his wife who was punched in the face? Is that what you want? The puncher or the beta who sat there and allowed that to happen.
Three times in my life, I had to put myself on the line physically for women who were complete strangers. All were in liberal enclaves, including NYC. I was the only one who did.
Maybe you want more guys like the Philly train riders who videotaped a man raping a woman. Not only did they not stop him, but took out their phones to record it.
Not one "toxic male" was there to stop it. Maybe that is what some people want, but not me. Sorry.

Ok, Spider-Man… thank you for keeping the subways safe for fair maidens everywhere.

The use of terms like liberal enclave and beta male are huge toxic masculinity red flags. Your defensiveness matches more with fragile masculinity, but that’s a topic for another day.

 

[MeekMe]

You really think these examples are the same?

Having your son being ostracized vs. the daughter being able to pick a favorite toy?

At least pick something where the daughter is going to be attacked by her peers, shunned by society and risks her education and career, too, and then tell me you would not try to protect her from that for the greater good.

Being too feminine ostracized me as a child. I liked stereotypical girly things like dolls, and I wanted to grow up to be pretty (also a mermaid). However, my family (my parents wanted a male child), other school children, and adults became rather mean about this. My pursuits were trivial and not worthy of anything more than being dismissed or ridiculed. At that point I rejected all things “girl.” I stopped playing with dolls, I said I hated the color pink, and I dressed like a boy as much as possible. Society tends to hate whatever is popular with girls and women and a boy engaging in those same things gets ostracized even more because these are not valued pursuits.

I couldn’t explain why I would do this as a child, I just knew that being a girl meant being less so I fought to not be a girl. The real fun part is getting the mixed messages that as a girl I was supposed to want to be pretty and pursue these things people would openly mock about women.

Too feminine? Frivolous slut. Not feminine enough? Frumpy slob. There’s no winning when we devalue femininity.

A fun little example you might like: I have nephews. I think their parents are pretty good, certainly better than my own. The mother wanted to purchase a toy kitchen for them. It’s just a kitchen, right? Boys should have toys that simulate cooking to spur interest and exploration like anyone else, right? Father vetoed it. Their mother could only give me the “I know…” look of defeat. She found a workaround though, she bought them chef’s hats and brought them into the kitchen with her for fun baking projects.

Le sigh, unfortunately it had to be introduced as men who cook are professionals. Women who cook are women. Girls can more easily step into male oriented spaces because masculine pursuits are valued above feminine pursuits.

 

[PrettyLilPussy19]

Is masculinity a lack of desire for competition?

You can be confident and competitive. These are different traits.



The thread specifically stated that toxic masculinity is promoted and aspired in the BDSM context and used as one example was for example "the need to be perceived tough". And next you talk about "shove it down your throat (and not in a fun way) bullshit".

These two things are, in my book, very, very, very different things.

Please give me an example where/how the "shove it down your throat bullshit" is promoted and aspired in the BDSM context. Or what do you actually want to get rid off that is currently promoted and aspired in the BDSM context?

I don't think this question is clearly stated so I can't really answer it but I didn't say - "it is" definitively. I said "I see this happening often." Hugely different. I'm certainly not trying to speak for everyone just open an intelligent conversation.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Did anyone see the video of the guy on the NYC subway who did not defend his wife who was punched in the face? Is that what you want? The puncher or the beta who sat there and allowed that to happen.
Three times in my life, I had to put myself on the line physically for women who were complete strangers. All were in liberal enclaves, including NYC. I was the only one who did.
Maybe you want more guys like the Philly train riders who videotaped a man raping a woman. Not only did they not stop him, but took out their phones to record it.
Not one "toxic male" was there to stop it. Maybe that is what some people want, but not me. Sorry.

My general preference is for not getting punched in the face in the first place, so I would say that the person doing the punching is the major problem here.
As for the husband, if he is in a wheel chair and she is a kick boxer, is he still obligated to step up?

I think it is great that you were able and willing to step up and help people that were being attacked. I am glad that there was someone to help me once and that I have been able to do the same a few times.
Not everyone is physically able to do things like that. I do think everyone has an obligation to do what they can though, man or woman.

The thing you mention about these situations where a bunch of people look away is a sad thing. There was a thread about this a while ago that was quite interesting. Someone said that in the US they’d be afraid of being shot. That is not a big concern where I am. There is not much trust in others to band together in these situations though and so the strength that lies in numbers is lost.

 

[wicked woman]

Being too feminine ostracized me as a child. I liked stereotypical girly things like dolls, and I wanted to grow up to be pretty (also a mermaid). However, my family (my parents wanted a male child), other school children, and adults became rather mean about this. My pursuits were trivial and not worthy of anything more than being dismissed or ridiculed. At that point I rejected all things “girl.” I stopped playing with dolls, I said I hated the color pink, and I dressed like a boy as much as possible. Society tends to hate whatever is popular with girls and women and a boy engaging in those same things gets ostracized even more because these are not valued pursuits.

I couldn’t explain why I would do this as a child, I just knew that being a girl meant being less so I fought to not be a girl. The real fun part is getting the mixed messages that as a girl I was supposed to want to be pretty and pursue these things people would openly mock about women.

Too feminine? Frivolous slut. Not feminine enough? Frumpy slob. There’s no winning when we devalue femininity.

A fun little example you might like: I have nephews. I think their parents are pretty good, certainly better than my own. The mother wanted to purchase a toy kitchen for them. It’s just a kitchen, right? Boys should have toys that simulate cooking to spur interest and exploration like anyone else, right? Father vetoed it. Their mother could only give me the “I know…” look of defeat. She found a workaround though, she bought them chef’s hats and brought them into the kitchen with her for fun baking projects.

Le sigh, unfortunately it had to be introduced as men who cook are professionals. Women who cook are women. Girls can more easily step into male oriented spaces because masculine pursuits are valued above feminine pursuits.

This is so sad, both your experience and your nephew's Dad's reaction to a kitchen.

The sentence I've put in bold reminds me when I was a teenager. I had a good mix of what's traditionally considered male and female traits. It was easy to 'read' which traits were more valued though, so I stressed my male traits. No surprise that I went into a career that, at the time, had very few women in it. I was capable of the work and wanted to be valued. Who doesn't? Thankfully as I got older, I learned to value my traditionally female traits as well.

 

[Primalex]

I don't think this question is clearly stated so I can't really answer it but I didn't say - "it is" definitively. I said "I see this happening often." Hugely different.

You are right, there was no question, but a request.

I requested an actual example (or more than one) of "toxic masculinity being promoted and aspired in the BDSM context" beyond some truism.

I could try to find some examples on my own, I guess, but I would end up with pictures in BDSM Cafe threads portraying the "hyper masculine alpha type" IrisAlthea mentioned. Is this what we are talking about? Because this image of dominant men is definitely something that is being promoted and aspired in BDSM communities.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Being too feminine ostracized me as a child. I liked stereotypical girly things like dolls, and I wanted to grow up to be pretty (also a mermaid). However, my family (my parents wanted a male child), other school children, and adults became rather mean about this. My pursuits were trivial and not worthy of anything more than being dismissed or ridiculed. At that point I rejected all things “girl.” I stopped playing with dolls, I said I hated the color pink, and I dressed like a boy as much as possible. Society tends to hate whatever is popular with girls and women and a boy engaging in those same things gets ostracized even more because these are not valued pursuits.

I couldn’t explain why I would do this as a child, I just knew that being a girl meant being less so I fought to not be a girl. The real fun part is getting the mixed messages that as a girl I was supposed to want to be pretty and pursue these things people would openly mock about women.

Too feminine? Frivolous slut. Not feminine enough? Frumpy slob. There’s no winning when we devalue femininity.

A fun little example you might like: I have nephews. I think their parents are pretty good, certainly better than my own. The mother wanted to purchase a toy kitchen for them. It’s just a kitchen, right? Boys should have toys that simulate cooking to spur interest and exploration like anyone else, right? Father vetoed it. Their mother could only give me the “I know…” look of defeat. She found a workaround though, she bought them chef’s hats and brought them into the kitchen with her for fun baking projects.

Le sigh, unfortunately it had to be introduced as men who cook are professionals. Women who cook are women. Girls can more easily step into male oriented spaces because masculine pursuits are valued above feminine pursuits.

Ugh, I’m sorry!
I was in ballet class and when I started school my parent thought I might just as well use the ballet dress with the tutu for sport class. I can still remember…

This is so sad, both your experience and your nephew's Dad's reaction to a kitchen.

The sentence I've put in bold reminds me when I was a teenager. I had a good mix of what's traditionally considered male and female traits. It was easy to 'read' which traits were more valued though, so I stressed my male traits. No surprise that I went into a career that, at the time, had very few women in it. I was capable of the work and wanted to be valued. Who doesn't? Thankfully as I got older, I learned to value my traditionally female traits as well.

I can totally relate to that.

My grandfather died when my father was 8. I was the first and for a rather long time only child of my parents. I got the best father a little boy in the 40s could have wanted and was also supposed to fulfill the Central European ideals for an upper middle class little girl.
I figured out that there was no way of getting it all right all the time, so I might as well combine it the way I wanted to. I don’t think that was the intended takeaway, but confused input about intended goals tends to not get you what you might have wanted.

 

[MeekMe]

This is so sad, both your experience and your nephew's Dad's reaction to a kitchen.

The sentence I've put in bold reminds me when I was a teenager. I had a good mix of what's traditionally considered male and female traits. It was easy to 'read' which traits were more valued though, so I stressed my male traits. No surprise that I went into a career that, at the time, had very few women in it. I was capable of the work and wanted to be valued. Who doesn't? Thankfully as I got older, I learned to value my traditionally female traits as well.

Yes, I realize I’m basically getting to know myself all over again because I’m in a safe place to explore my more feminine traits. I think many of us felt the same whether it was a subtle recognition or a more forceful one of being actively bullied. My hope is that it changes for the better and I already see some signs that it is. Slowly.

Ugh, I’m sorry!
I was in ballet class and when I started school my parent thought I might just as well use the ballet dress with the tutu for sport class. I can still remember…



I can totally relate to that.

My grandfather died when my father was 8. I was the first and for a rather long time only child of my parents. I got the best father a little boy in the 40s could have wanted and was also supposed to fulfill the Central European ideals for an upper middle class little girl.
I figured out that there was no way of getting it all right all the time, so I might as well combine it the way I wanted to. I don’t think that was the intended takeaway, but confused input about intended goals tends to not get you what you might have wanted.

Indeed, the balancing act is hard work.

I see a lot of things in BDSM that reinforce these roles and often the feminine is used for degradation and humiliation. Sissies come to mind. I can’t help but feel I’m being made fun of every time I see it, so I avoid it. The feminization of men is almost always in the context of humiliation. Because women and femininity is just sooooo embarrassing. Because a woman steps UP into masculinity and a man steps DOWN into femininity. Not fun.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Did anyone see the video of the guy on the NYC subway who did not defend his wife who was punched in the face? Is that what you want?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

The puncher or the beta who sat there and allowed that to happen.
Three times in my life, I had to put myself on the line physically for women who were complete strangers. All were in liberal enclaves, including NYC. I was the only one who did.

Great. Now show us where anybody in this thread has called that "toxic".

Maybe you want more guys like the Philly train riders who videotaped a man raping a woman. Not only did they not stop him, but took out their phones to record it.

That's the version the police initially put about, but it's generally a bad idea to take police accounts at face value. In this case, the security camera footage says otherwise: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...video-of-rape-on-septa-train-da-says/3006034/

Not one "toxic male" was there to stop it. Maybe that is what some people want, but not me. Sorry.

If you want to argue against these imaginary people in your head who are saying that it's "toxic" to defend anybody against violence or harassment, maybe you could create your own thread for that? It makes it confusing when you post this as if it was a response, to people who haven't said anything of the sort.

People have already said, repeatedly, that "toxic masculinity" != "all masculinity is toxic", but some of you dudes seem determined not to get it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It’s really not that hard, and there’s nothing to be defensive and fragile about.



Be Aragorn, not Gaston.

Of course, it's Aragorn, not Samwise or, lo and behold, Pippin.

Aragorn is a man! Be the hero, be the king! If you are a man, this has to be your goal!


Welcome to toxic masculinity 101.

This seems like over-interpretation. Katie's only listing one example on each side probably means that she was trying not to write a TLDR, rather than that she thinks the only acceptable model for masculinity is an undead-commanding monarch.

If in doubt, one can always ask:

"Aragorn? What about Sam, or Pippin?"

rather than leaping to a very specific interpretation of a terse post that could be read in many different ways. The latter comes across as choosing point-scoring in preference to sincere discussion; it's a very high-school-debating-society kind of vibe, which hopefully you didn't intend.

 

[Bramblethorn]

If you had a son and he wanted to put on make-up or paint his nails would you say no? If you say to yourself, I would never let him put on make-up, you are conforming to rigid gender norms, this is toxic masculinity. It would be the same if you had a daughter and your wife said no, she can’t play with a GI Joe. It’s not condemning men or male attributes. It’s harmful to everyone!

You really think these examples are the same?

Having your son being ostracized vs. the daughter being able to pick a favorite toy?

At least pick something where the daughter is going to be attacked by her peers, shunned by society and risks her education and career, too, and then tell me you would not try to protect her from that for the greater good.

There's more than one way to "protect" a child. You can teach them to conform to the code, or you can help them fight it.

The latter is a harder road, but often the better choice.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Toxic Masculinity inside the BDSM Community

This article (from Psychology Today) takes a stab at explaining what toxic masculinity is, in regards to the general society.

A man should suffer physical and emotional pain in silence.
A man shouldn’t seek warmth, comfort, or tenderness.
A man should only have the emotions of bravery and anger. Any other emotions are weaknesses. Weakness is unacceptable.
A man shouldn’t depend on anyone. Asking for help is also weak.
A man should always want to win, whether in sports, work, relationships, or sex.

How does it play out in the BDSM community (and specifically in Dom/Sub relationships)?

It manifests itself when the male in the relationship doesn't offer compassion and tenderness to the female because they think it will be perceived as weakness and they're an ALPHA dammit, seek compassion and tenderness elsewhere.

The emotion of anger becomes the primary emotional response to the female not behaving as the male wants. (This one is rampant in online communities where it goes like this: "I'm a dom, you're a sub, now serve me!" "Uh, no thanks" "Fuck you slut, you're not a real sub, you're just a poser or a fucking newby who doesn't know what a sub is!"

Or, in male to male communications "You need to straighten your sub out or I'll take her away cause I'm a real man and you're just a beta!" Weakness is unacceptable and anger is the only response - real men should get angry at weak men and women.

It also plays out when the toxic males (and the women who buy into the toxicity) spout things like - "Him: I'm not sure how far you want to go with this" "Dude, never ask your sub what she wants" or the female version "If you were a real Dom you'd know and I wouldn't have to tell you".

Within the BDSM community to part that always entertains me is the whole "I'm a lone wolf alpha, I don't need anyone". (Uh, the whole concept of "alpha male" comes from biological studies of group behavior. No group, no group behavior. You can't be the alpha male or female unless you have a pack, a pride, or a group. In the wild, aggressive males not associated with a pack or pride or group are considered sick and shunned for the behavior.)

And finally, I think it can be observed in the whole "winning at any cost" mentality which defines everything as win or lose, is or is not. That costs relationships or gets people stuck in bad relationships.

When folks, in general, talk about toxic masculinity the emphasis is on the word toxic - poisonous, damaging to the health and well being on the male and the people around him.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Within the BDSM community to part that always entertains me is the whole "I'm a lone wolf alpha, I don't need anyone". (Uh, the whole concept of "alpha male" comes from biological studies of group behavior. No group, no group behavior. You can't be the alpha male or female unless you have a pack, a pride, or a group. In the wild, aggressive males not associated with a pack or pride or group are considered sick and shunned for the behavior.)

Outdated studies of group behaviour, at that. David Mech, one of the researchers who originally popularised the "alpha wolf" concept, has been trying for decades to tell people that he got it wrong: https://wolf.org/headlines/44265/

Wild wolf packs are mostly family units: mum, dad, and the pups. The supposed "alpha male" is just Dad.

 

[KimGordon67]

There's more than one way to "protect" a child. You can teach them to conform to the code, or you can help them fight it.

The latter is a harder road, but often the better choice.

Is there a middle ground where you just encourage them to not give a fuck about the code? I feel like that's where my kid is at.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Outdated studies of group behaviour, at that. David Mech, one of the researchers who originally popularised the "alpha wolf" concept, has been trying for decades to tell people that he got it wrong: https://wolf.org/headlines/44265/

Wild wolf packs are mostly family units: mum, dad, and the pups. The supposed "alpha male" is just Dad.

Yeah, that was from the old mentality that approached animal behavior as "competition for resources" - subsequent studies, aided in part by advances in technology, have reveal far more complex, interlocking, and cooperative structures in herd/pack behaviors, including alternating roles and interspecies cooperation.

 

[StockingGirlJ]

I think it’s becoming more that way as the boomers die off.

Sigh. Generational categories are as unhelpful as any other stereotype and like all stereotypes simply serve as code words or shorthand for the user's own preconceived notions about some grouping of people.

 

[KimGordon67]

Sigh. Generational categories are as unhelpful as any other stereotype and like all stereotypes simply serve as code words or shorthand for the user's own preconceived notions about some grouping of people.

I'm pretty sure Fara is just using 'boomer' as shorthand. She's right that these things change generationally - the whatever-they-are-called young people today often are a lot more flexible and less judgemental around gender hegemonic norms. But it's just to tiresome to explain all that, as well as balancing it out with the counter-explanation of how older generations view things, and providing evidence to support each notion that isn't just anecdotal.

We all know what she means. I'm virtually a boomer myself, and I didn't take offence. I know that she knows that it doesn't describe literally everyone in that generation.