Avoiding Toxic Masculinity in BDSM

[IrisAlthea]

I tried to keep my inner Tolkien freak inner, but oh well…

It’s really not that hard, and there’s nothing to be defensive and fragile about.



Be Aragorn, not Gaston.

I was thinking of Gaston Legaffe and was very confused. By all means, be Gaston Legaffe, it seems way more fun than being his boss.

Of course, it's Aragorn, not Samwise or, lo and behold, Pippin.

Aragorn is a man! Be the hero, be the king! If you are a man, this has to be your goal!


Welcome to toxic masculinity 101.

I think that does describe toxic masculinity, yes.

It doesn't matter whether she thinks that there are other "acceptable" role models or not, the point is that consciously or subconsciously a certain character out of about 750 different LOTR characters was picked as example for masculinity and it was not by chance.

All of the Tolkien characters are wonderful examples of authentic masculinity, rather than toxic masculinity.

I think the thing about Tolkien is that most characters are complex. Elrond requiring Aragorn to jump through hoops to win Arwen is quite toxic but at the same time we understand his wish to protect his daughter.
Denethor is about as toxic as it gets to his sons but he does keep fighting Sauron etc. I could go on forever, but I’ll try to spare you all.

I think Primalex has a point in that Aragorn and Arwen are some of the least complex characters there are. They are essentially the archetypal lovers against adversity. Aragorn gets a bit less two dimensional when we first meet him as Strider, but not by much.

In general, I think there is a lot of double bind in the discussion about toxic masculinity. Speak up against the toxic ones but don’t whiteknight and let women’s voices be heard etc. It just ends up being an army of straw men at times.
I think it still makes sense to say that the biggest predjudice is that (general)you yourself are without prejudice.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Oh, I really would like to see what your "help to fight it" is going to be, when the parents of your child's friend decided that they are not allowed to meet or hang out anymore.

"Sorry Timmy, that really sucks. Unfortunately some people are like that, and you can't change them. But changing yourself to try to appease them is a losing game. Fortunately, because we don't live on some kind of weird made-up-for-the-sake-of-winning-an-argument island where there's only one other child your age, there are other kids you can hang out with."

It's a hard situation for a kid; you don't just write off a friendship and go straight on to the next one without some hurt. But if you've raised a kid to adulthood - which I have - you'll be aware that "preserve the friendship no matter what it costs" just isn't a viable rule to live by. Kids (and adults) need to be able to draw boundaries with their friends; it's not an easy lesson to learn but it doesn't get any easier for kicking the can down the road a few years.

I doubt that there is even anecdotal evidence which supports this statement.

I don't particularly care what your intuition says about it.

If somebody else on this board had said this to me, my reaction might be very different. There are a bunch of people here who, if they'd said that, I'd try to talk things through - I'd offer evidence, listen to what they had to say and try to understand why they believe that, try to show them why I believe what I do.

But I don't think it would be productive for me to try to have that conversation with you.

You're not stupid, but in the time that I've been on this board and witnessed you talking to others, I've never seen you as somebody who was interested in being persuaded - or even, particularly, as somebody who was interested in persuading others. You've always struck me more as somebody who treats argument as a sort of zero-sum fisticuffs where the object is not to reach agreement and understanding on an issue, but to score points and make the other person look small.

I can understand that, because it's a mode I fall into all too easily myself. I did my time on high school debate teams, and you don't win that game by saying "actually you make some interesting points, maybe we can agree on some things". I carried that mindset well into adulthood, and I haven't entirely left it behind; I'm still a bit of an argumentative cuss. But it's something I'm trying not to cultivate in myself, so I don't see that it would be a good idea to get into that game with you now. And there is no point in wasting one's time producing evidence to persuade somebody who's not open to being persuaded.

Perhaps I've misjudged you. It's not impossible; I do tend to be a bit black-and-white in my opinions of people. Perhaps there are conversations in the archives that I've overlooked, where somebody offered you evidence, and you looked at it, and changed your opinions. If those conversations exist, I'd love to see them; I would love to change my opinion of you for the better.

But lacking that, it seems like putting in the time to find that supporting evidence would be wasted effort, all for the sake of getting myself sucked into a game that I'm not actually interested in playing.

 

[IrisAlthea]

"Sorry Timmy, that really sucks. Unfortunately some people are like that, and you can't change them. But changing yourself to try to appease them is a losing game. Fortunately, because we don't live on some kind of weird made-up-for-the-sake-of-winning-an-argument island where there's only one other child your age, there are other kids you can hang out with."

It's a hard situation for a kid; you don't just write off a friendship and go straight on to the next one without some hurt. But if you've raised a kid to adulthood - which I have - you'll be aware that "preserve the friendship no matter what it costs" just isn't a viable rule to live by. Kids (and adults) need to be able to draw boundaries with their friends; it's not an easy lesson to learn but it doesn't get any easier for kicking the can down the road a few years.

I agree with the bolded but there is also a reason why we pay extra to live where we live and not in some smaller village where it would be cheaper and why we chose the bigger school for our kids rather than the little cozy one. Not everyone can make those choices.
A facebook friend posted this on her wall becaus of something that happened:
http://www.scarymommy.com/mom-friends-dumped-me-kids-paid-price/?utm_source=FB&fbclid=IwAR3ZXtUS4OMxL3cTsw_Wh8is89C4AOFKON7med8uEB3jNskn1PakHPwe4D4

I would wish these things were easier. I hope they will be but I’m not holding my breath.

 

[StockingGirlJ]

No, because the thread was not about "toxic male behavior" but "toxic masculinity". Examples of "toxic masculinity" were given, like stoicism. And then it was about the BDSM community promoting toxic masculinity and what do about it (and where I'm still waiting for an actual example to narrow down what we are talking about).



When someone uses "apparently", it's often not.




That is an oversimplification. The BDSM community is not just a reflection of society, but the BDSM community actively supports a certain expression of behavior within certain constraints as acceptable that does _not_ reflect society - this is the problem.

Expressing violence towards women is part of the BDSM kink.
Treating women as inferior is part of the BDSM kink.
Objectifying women is part of the BDSM kink.

The question is, if this also means, the portrayal of these activities are inherently displaying toxic masculinity, as outside the BDSM context, they would be - and whether there needs to be done something about it and what that would be.

No, because the thread was not about "toxic male behavior" but "toxic masculinity". Examples of "toxic masculinity" were given, like stoicism. And then it was about the BDSM community promoting toxic masculinity and what do about it (and where I'm still waiting for an actual example to narrow down what we are talking about).



When someone uses "apparently", it's often not.




That is an oversimplification. The BDSM community is not just a reflection of society, but the BDSM community actively supports a certain expression of behavior within certain constraints as acceptable that does _not_ reflect society - this is the problem.

Expressing violence towards women is part of the BDSM kink.
Treating women as inferior is part of the BDSM kink.
Objectifying women is part of the BDSM kink.

The question is, if this also means, the portrayal of these activities are inherently displaying toxic masculinity, as outside the BDSM context, they would be - and whether there needs to be done something about it and what that would be.

Apparently, you are unaware that the distinction between toxic male behavior and toxic masculinity is essentially meaningless, because (1) the actual behavior is the problem, and (2) the traits or behaviors combined are expressions or the result of a larger social view that sees the traditional binary character traits of men and women and the roles of each as at least partially fixed and distinctly different. Whether I or the OP are oversimplifying and whether the BDSM community is not just a reflection of society is irrelevant to a discussion of the issue raised by the OP.

However, apparently, you missed the part where the OP drew a parallel directly between the general society and the BDSM community. "I see examples of toxic masculinity in daily life and our culture is growing less and less accepting of this behavior. But I see the same things promoted and often aspired to in the BDSM community." The OP's point was that as a society we are doing better job addressing this issue than we are in the BDSM community, a point I disagree with.


And, apparently, you think BDSM is a non-normal sexual behavior and are unaware that men can be submissive.

Most notably, I apparently, did a poor job of communicating the only point I was trying to make:
The traits or behaviors are a reflection of a larger social view that sees and treats women as inferior, and that the OP is likely going to see more of this, not less.

 

[KimGordon67]

Oh, I really would like to see what your "help to fight it" is going to be, when the parents of your child's friend decided that they are not allowed to meet or hang out anymore. Maybe you can make a motivational poster about "true friends" or something like that while he or she lives a life in misery.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, most kids who don't conform to the code end up with friends who similarly don't conform, or friends who conform (by chance) but truly don't give a fuck about that sort of thing. These days you can actually construct a pretty sizable social group along these lines, and the groups that I'm seeing are far from miserable (except for all the reasons young people are generally miserable, like that they have to go to class or get of bed before midday or eat vegetables). If there are parents out there saying their kids can't hang with my kid because he's bi and also not especially 'masculine', I'm certainly not hearing about it. I guess in some contexts, the non-conformist kids might be ostracised, but I'm seeing less and less evidence that this is the case ... because things change.

 

[Mei5ter]

'Toxic masculinity' is now commonly used for a broad spectrum of male behaviour. But I think its original sense was narrower and more interesting, if I've understood right.

At its core is the qualities societies have traditionally used to define masculinity. I'm not going to attempt a definitive list, but these might include: emotional stoicism, providing for family, physical strength and sporting/athletic prowess, being hard working, and achieving visible financial success.

These are not necessarily bad things. The toxicity comes from:

- this definition excludes women (these are male qualities, so women must be judged by and aspire to different ones)
- men whose main talents and qualities do not fit this definition of masculinity are devalued in consequence.

So the toxicity doesn't come about because emotional stoicism, providing for your family or success at work are bad things. They aren't. The toxicity comes about when society accepts them as solely male things, which women shouldn't have, and which men are devalued for not possessing.

That's different from toxic male behaviour - like if I were to shove my hand up a junior female colleague's skirt in the elevator, because I can get away with it, being a privileged middle-aged white man who knows that people will listen to me rather than the young black woman I've just groped. It's obvious why that's toxic.
It's far less obvious why maintaining a traditional set of values as being exclusively male should be problematic, and that's what the concept of toxic masculinity explains. I don't want to start an argument about definitions here, but I suspect there would be far less bleating of #notallmen if the distinction were clearer.

 

[KatieDoes]

I tried to keep my inner Tolkien freak inner, but oh well…


I was thinking of Gaston Legaffe and was very confused. By all means, be Gaston Legaffe, it seems way more fun than being his boss.



_____

I was referring to Gaston from Beauty And The Beast:


https://youtu.be/qVdgaSuAjII

 

[IrisAlthea]

I tried to keep my inner Tolkien freak inner, but oh well…


I was thinking of Gaston Legaffe and was very confused. By all means, be Gaston Legaffe, it seems way more fun than being his boss.



_____

I was referring to Gaston from Beauty And The Beast:


https://youtu.be/qVdgaSuAjII

I figured as much with the help of Google. It’s a Disney movie I kind of missed.

 

[KatieDoes]

I figured as much with the help of Google. It’s a Disney movie I kind of missed.

He’s the most perfect example/caricature of toxic masculinity I know of.


Oddly, those denying or defending toxic masculinity skipped right over that example to pick apart Aragorn.

 

[IrisAlthea]

He’s the most perfect example/caricature of toxic masculinity I know of.


Oddly, those denying or defending toxic masculinity skipped right over that example to pick apart Aragorn.

Well, I am one of those who had a problem with Aragorn as an example, because I think the restricting and unattainable idea about masculinity is the root of the toxicity.
This doesn’t mean that I’m defending or deniying that there is a problem. I have seen next to noone denying that in this thread. That doesn’t mean that the way these things are discussed is unproblematic. I’ve written about the lack of nuance, the fact that we probably have different ideas about what we are talking about and what is problematic, the fact that none of us exist outside the problem etc.
Another reason is I don’t like difference feminism. I sense the idea that women/ the traditionally feminine traits are inherently different and better behind a lot of it, the only difference between sides sometimes being that one wants men to become more like the typical female role. I’d prefer men and women women alike to have access to a wider range of traits and not needing to repress parts of themselves to fit into some role.
Not being toxic is way more complicated than don’t behave like a traditional man.

 

[Primalex]

Apparently,

However, apparently,

And, apparently,

Well, I'm not repeating three times what I've said about the use of this word, but it still holds true.

The traits or behaviors [in BDSM communities/people] are a reflection of a larger social view that sees and treats women as inferior,

No, they are not. My cock does not get hard because I was raised to believe that women are inferior or because I'm trying to conform to a society that believes women are inferior. The sexual deviances of people is reflected. What you also see is some unavoidable background noise due to the fact that any sufficiently large group of humans will contain some elements of humanity - rapists, pedophiles, drug users, racists, etc.

And while we are at it:
Please, give me some examples about toxic male behavior or toxic masculinity of male submissives in BDSM communities. You can't just throw in some facts and prance around and tell me I would refuse to talk about it, when you don't provide any context that would allow discussion.

 

[Primalex]

"Sorry Timmy, that really sucks. Unfortunately some people are like that, and you can't change them. But changing yourself to try to appease them is a losing game. Fortunately, because we don't live on some kind of weird made-up-for-the-sake-of-winning-an-argument island where there's only one other child your age, there are other kids you can hang out with."

Awesome. Timmy killed himself three months later after he couldn't bear the bullying in school any longer. Men are still the best when it comes down to successful suicide.

And...my position does not come from a toxic view of masculinity, but from having been victim of bullying up to the level where I faked illnesses so I wouldn't meet the aggressors in school and from having actually witnessed a suicide attempt of a girl in fucking 4th grade due to bullying.

Plenty of Japanese people live a very happy life despite the "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down" society. We have all suppressed some personality traits for one reason or the other. Hell, this is the BDSM community, half of the people here likely suppressed certain feelings for years before "coming out".

FWIW, I will make a concession. If there are actual signs of transsexuality, then this transition needs to be completed asap.

You're not stupid, but in the time that I've been on this board and witnessed you talking to others, I've never seen you as somebody who was interested in being persuaded - or even, particularly, as somebody who was interested in persuading others. You've always struck me more as somebody who treats argument as a sort of zero-sum fisticuffs where the object is not to reach agreement and understanding on an issue, but to score points and make the other person look small.

If checking an argument for its validity is "raising fisticuffs", then I'm guilty. And yes, I dismiss weak arguments. And yes, it's part of my competitive nature - I do defend my point of view, because I rarely was careless or without knowledge when claiming that particular hill. Discussions I know nothing about are discussions I don't participate in - what could I contribute? If you want me to change my point of view, then you need to add something that I did not consider before - instead of ruminating facts I have been already aware when I formed my opinion.

And this is, again, not toxic masculinity as in "treating the point of women as inferior because they are women" - to quote someone else about me:
"You do not coddle women the same as you do not coddle men. You don't automatically agree with someone because there's a chance you might get to see their tits."

And your argument that "doing the right thing pays off" is a very weak one, because it's backed up solely by some spiritual idea. Doing bad things can give you an awesome life and doing good things can make you end up in a miserable life.

And there is no point in wasting one's time producing evidence to persuade somebody who's not open to being persuaded.

We both know that there is just no way to back up your statement, very much like I cannot back up the opposite. But I don't pretend that your personality is at fault for me not providing evidence.

Perhaps I've misjudged you. It's not impossible; I do tend to be a bit black-and-white in my opinions of people. Perhaps there are conversations in the archives that I've overlooked, where somebody offered you evidence, and you looked at it, and changed your opinions. If those conversations exist, I'd love to see them; I would love to change my opinion of you for the better.

"Search this Forum" -> "Advanced Search" -> "Find Posts by User" -> Primalex -> Key Words: "agree" -> Show Results as: Posts - > Search Now

 

[Primalex]

Oddly, those denying or defending toxic masculinity skipped right over that example to pick apart Aragorn.

Considering that I was the only one who picked apart Aragorn, you must be talking about me. Is it the toxic femininity that prefers passive aggressiveness instead of addressing me directly?

Anyway, not only isn't it odd, but I don't deny or defend toxic masculinity. And if you've read something else it's just another example that your reading comprehension skill falls below the requirements to participate in such a complex discussion.

 

[Primalex]

Well, we've reached page 8 and the OP or anyone else here was still unable to answer my question.

So, I reserve the right to assume that this was indeed just some thread about bashing unacceptable behavior from male humans. And with this I will remove myself now more or less from this discussion. There isn't much to discuss about unacceptable behavior being unacceptable.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Awesome. Timmy killed himself three months later after he couldn't bear the bullying in school any longer. Men are still the best when it comes down to successful suicide.

And...my position does not come from a toxic view of masculinity, but from having been victim of bullying up to the level where I faked illnesses so I wouldn't meet the aggressors in school and from having actually witnessed a suicide attempt of a girl in fucking 4th grade due to bullying.

I am sorry you experienced that. I had a similar experience (being undiagnosed autistic and gender-non-conforming will do that), although I ended up actually making myself sick rather than just faking it, and I didn't witness my schoolmate's ('successful') suicide. It was a miserable time.

What helped? Having parents who were willing to get in school management's face and stay there until they stopped turning a blind eye, and who helped me find places where I could be myself. Several of my most important childhood friendships were made outside school, with people outside the playground circle.

What didn't help? Trying to make myself invisible, and in the process learning habits that have caused me a good deal of harm as an adult, habits I'm still working to dismantle decades later. I covered and suppressed so much in school, and it didn't make a lick of difference to the bullying. The kid who died was bullied for being Asian and adopted; what was he supposed to do, bleach his skin?

I am genuinely sorry for your experience there, but I reject your attempt to weaponise it against me and make me feel bad for not sharing your opinion on the solutions.

(And there's the "anecdotal evidence" that you claimed didn't exist.)

Plenty of Japanese people live a very happy life despite the "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down" society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan

"In Japan, suicide (自殺, jisatsu) is considered a major social issue.[2][3] In 2017, the country had the seventh highest suicide rate in the OECD, at 14.9 per 100,000 persons,[4] and in 2019 the country had the second highest suicide rate among the G7 developed nations... Seventy percent of suicides in Japan are male,[8] and it is the leading cause of death in men aged 20–44."

Or, specifically on schoolkids:

https://www.humanium.org/en/child-suicide-in-japan-the-leading-cause-of-death-in-children/

"Since 2014, suicide has become Japan’s leading cause of death in children aged 10-19 (Oi, 2015) and the rate of child suicide keeps rising despite the decreasing overall suicide rate (Whitman, 2015)! The main reasons for child suicide are school-related issues such as demanding school work or bullying. [/quote]

Seems like maybe conformity isn't actually a terribly good way for defeating bullying, and the reasons should be obvious: the more people conform, the tighter the standard for conformity becomes. Everybody stresses themselves out, and the bullies still find somebody, but now that somebody has all the stress of conformity on top of the stress of bullying.

If checking an argument for its validity is "raising fisticuffs", then I'm guilty.

Nah. Those are very different things. It is entirely possible to question and critique an argument without treating it like a gladiatorial sport; it just doesn't appear to be a skill that you've learned.

And yes, I dismiss weak arguments.

...says the guy who invoked Japan as an example of how to prevent bullying.

And this is, again, not toxic masculinity as in "treating the point of women as inferior because they are women" - to quote someone else about me:
"You do not coddle women the same as you do not coddle men. You don't automatically agree with someone because there's a chance you might get to see their tits."

That's kind of a low bar, TBH.

And your argument that "doing the right thing pays off" is a very weak one, because it's backed up solely by some spiritual idea. Doing bad things can give you an awesome life and doing good things can make you end up in a miserable life.

This would be a good point if I had in fact asserted "doing the right thing pays off" as a general principle of life, but I never made any such generalisation. I asserted that in this specific context, the right thing and the good outcome for oneself (or one's kids) often coincides.

"Search this Forum" -> "Advanced Search" -> "Find Posts by User" -> Primalex -> Key Words: "agree" -> Show Results as: Posts - > Search Now

Sure, let's try that!

First hit: the comment I'm replying to now.

Second hit: this comment ("do you agree...") - not an example of you changing your opinions.

Third hit: "I'm inclined to agree with your assessment"... on a matter where, AFAICT, the two of you hadn't been disagreeing. Also not an example.

Fourth hit: you quoting somebody else who used the word "agree" (and, ironically enough, apparently disagreeing with them).

Fifth hit: this post where you begin by proclaiming that your initial position was right. Still doesn't look very much like you being persuaded to change an opinion. Quite the opposite.

By now we're back to 2017, still with zero examples of you changing your mind in response to evidence. I'm going to stop there, because I have other things to do, but if that's your counterargument then it's one of the weakest I've ever seen.

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

I see examples of toxic masculinity in daily life and our culture is growing less and less accepting of this behavior. But I see the same things promoted and often aspired to in the BDSM community.

What are some ways we can grow and mature and embrace our men in BDSM without the toxic traits?
..

Just curious if this is on anyone else's radar?

There is a lot to unpack in the original post, and I am only going to look at a bit of it.

The underlying issue I see with "toxic masculinity" in the U.S. is tied to lack of empathy and hyper-competitive behavior (everything is competition, everything is "win or loss", if you aren't a winner you're a loser).

Someone who wants to be a Dom without some element of empathy for their sub is a problem. The power dynamic of BDSM is heaven for psychopathy/antisocial personality disorder people.
This is why consent is an imperative in the kink world. It is the guardrail against psychopaths. Consent is the line between sex (including kink) and felony.

Another aspect of toxic masculinity I observe is lack of responsibility. Everything, absolutely everything is "someone else's fault". This ties back to the psychopathic behavior. So if the sub is really hurt, if the Dom blows off the safeword, it is the sub's fault in the mind of the toxic vermin.

(The "toxic masculinity" thing ties to incels. This is all related to stuff that is relevant to my day job, so I spend a lot of time thinking about it.)

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

The word "stoicism" has been thrown around casually in this thread.

I find this ironic.
Stoic philosophy is the opposite of toxic masculinity.

Hiding pain, repressing emotion is not accepting the world as it is, and is not recognizing the difference between what you can control (your thoughts) and what you can't control (everything else).

 

[Primalex]

The power dynamic of BDSM is heaven for psychopathy/antisocial personality disorder people.
This is why consent is an imperative in the kink world. It is the guardrail against psychopaths.

The psychopath is just going to do the evil Djinn routine; exploiting any ambiguity in the consent declaration and making the victim feel responsible. It's really only a guardrail for "normal" people, because it protects them from misunderstanding each other.

Another aspect of toxic masculinity I observe is lack of responsibility. Everything, absolutely everything is "someone else's fault".

This is just narcissism. How is this related to masculinity?

 

[Primalex]

Seems like maybe conformity isn't actually a terribly good way for defeating bullying,

It wasn't an argument about reducing bullying, I've literally written:

"Plenty of Japanese people live a very happy life despite the "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down" society. We have all suppressed some personality traits for one reason or the other."

so, it's an argument about the lack of severe psychological damage of suppressing some personality traits in public.

Seems like maybe conformity isn't actually a terribly good way for defeating bullying, and the reasons should be obvious: the more people conform, the tighter the standard for conformity becomes. Everybody stresses themselves out, and the bullies still find somebody, but now that somebody has all the stress of conformity on top of the stress of bullying.

And this is why youth suicide per 100k by males in the US is 50% higher than by males in Japan.

...oh wait..

The kid who died was bullied for being Asian and adopted; what was he supposed to do, bleach his skin?

I didn't know skin color is something that I can refuse to sign off as parent.

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

The psychopath is just going to do the evil Djinn routine; exploiting any ambiguity in the consent declaration and making the victim feel responsible. It's really only a guardrail for "normal" people, because it protects them from misunderstanding each other.



This is just narcissism. How is this related to masculinity?

I think the real question is why are you so dead set on defending and excusing abusive people?

Not all masculinity is toxic, and BDSM can be practiced in a healthy, sane way, but you cannot accept that, can you?

You remind me of the 1970s and 1980s feminists who told me all sex with men is rape and all men are rapists. There is no reasoning with fanatics like that.

 

[Primalex]

I think the real question is why are you so dead set on defending and excusing abusive people?

No, it's not a real question, it's just a fairly sad attempt of you.

 

[naughtymind]

I see examples of toxic masculinity in daily life and our culture is growing less and less accepting of this behavior. But I see the same things promoted and often aspired to in the BDSM community.

What are some ways we can grow and mature and embrace our men in BDSM without the toxic traits?

Some examples:

• the need to be/or be perceived as tough always

• heterosexism or the inability to share space non-sexually with queer people

• emotional insensitivity

• the need to dominate women (in a non sexual way)

• stoicism/arrogance

Just curious if this is on anyone else's radar?

Well, we've reached page 8 and the OP or anyone else here was still unable to answer my question.

So, I reserve the right to assume that this was indeed just some thread about bashing unacceptable behavior from male humans. And with this I will remove myself now more or less from this discussion. There isn't much to discuss about unacceptable behavior being unacceptable.

I don’t share that presumption about the OP’s motivation to start this thread. I think she raised some interesting questions, which lead to some interesting comments. Your original question was also a fair point to raise, in my opinion; and in my opinion, it garnered some very reasonable responses. The fact that you didn’t like any of those answers is fine, but the distance you seem to be willing to go to assert your point is a bit ironic. Everyone has a right to their own opinions, of course, and I am not suggesting that you need to agree with others. It is possible, however, to disagree with respect and to have your mind open to the possibility of learning from other perspectives. You might want to have a look through some of your comments to see just how many of them come off as arrogant, or dismissive compared to respectful engagement.

 

[EdwardsOtherSide]

No, it's not a real question, it's just a fairly sad attempt of you.

No, "the real question is why are you so dead set on defending and excusing abusive people?" is an excellent question.

Why does a discussion of toxic masculinity make you act as if you are personally threatened or attacked?

I understand; the degree of self-honesty required to think about this question is physically painful for people who are making excuses for their own shameful, nasty behavior.

 

[Primalex]

No, "the real question is why are you so dead set on defending and excusing abusive people?" is an excellent question.

No, the real question is why you are not debating the topic.

Maybe you forgot, but this is where we were:

Another aspect of toxic masculinity I observe is lack of responsibility. Everything, absolutely everything is "someone else's fault".

This is just narcissism. How is this related to masculinity?

How about you answer the question or just plain out say that you have no clue either how this is related to masculinity.

Why does a discussion of toxic masculinity make you act as if you are personally threatened or attacked?

How does the answer to this question change the validity of my question above?

 

[Primalex]

It is possible, however, to disagree with respect and to have your mind open to the possibility of learning from other perspectives. You might want to have a look through some of your comments to see just how many of them come off as arrogant, or dismissive compared to respectful engagement.

I know what I've written.

What I challenge you is to look at the comment of other people and apply the same standard you want to apply to me.

Check if they "respectfully engaged" with the dumb shit "wallstreetguy" wrote.

Check how many are blatant straw man attacks. Well, maybe it's easier to check which posting of KatieDoes is not a straw man attack. But it works. Nobody says:"Hey, Katie, maybe stop attacking things nobody ever said and try to make them look bad for things that were never said, because it just poisons the debate and alienates people."

Hell, look at the very first answer of OP and then tell me whether this passes your quality gate.

But no, it's:"Hey, Prim, why are you so dismissive, that's not good for the debate."