BDSM posters face pictures

[chris9]

You could always join my " abused lawyers' shelter "

Who will be abusing us?

 

[DVS]

Actually, any objective evidence of a mutual assent to be bound at the time of agreement can be a legal contract as long as it doesn't fall under the statute of frauds.

But, how does someone prove any signatures are valid and thus binding to the contract? Forgery is possible, and if one of the signing parties says they didn't sign, or was forced to sign under duress...?

Sure, in the majority of cases, both are consenting and sign quite willingly. And, I understand the desire for a third party to know about these contracts isn't likely. Maybe there is a need for a BDSM notory? But, to be truly legal, wouldn't a contract need to be witnessed?

 

[babiesmiles]

Who will be abusing us?

Don't put limits to the providence ......

 

[Blushing Bottom]

In this country doesn't that vary from state to state?

Actually, any objective evidence of a mutual assent to be bound at the time of agreement can be a legal contract as long as it doesn't fall under the statute of frauds.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Although I am not a lawyer I have been an expert witness and have performed a lot of Information Security Forensic analysis. Some tips for those that still want to take the risk of accessing non work related material from work.

What to do if you have been caught:
Never, but never confess to anything.
Always claim innocence.
Claim that it is a virus or spyware.
Even if it is an email, claim it is not yours.
If worst comes to worst refuse to continue any discussion without a lawyer.

Although most IT staff can monitor and will monitor Internet usage it is very rare they collect evidence in a way where the chain of custody has been left intact which means the evidence is pretty much useless.

But it is always better to avoid having to go through an ugly war. Use an anonymous web proxy when going on the Internet from work, there are sites that will encrypt your connections and will make it almost impossible to monitor. Some of these are paid services but there are many that offer at least some free service.

Here are three of the more known one’s:
http://www.anonymizer.com/
http://www.the-cloak.com/anonymous-surfing-home.html
http://proxify.com/

If you can install software there is a great free German product called JAP which will give you a lot of privacy and protection.

http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/

Of course only use this information at your own risk and I advise you still not to use your work internet connection for non work related material.

Francisco.

 

[chris9]

But, how does someone prove any signatures are valid and thus binding to the contract? Forgery is possible, and if one of the signing parties says they didn't sign, or was forced to sign under duress...?

Sure, in the majority of cases, both are consenting and sign quite willingly. And, I understand the desire for a third party to know about these contracts isn't likely. Maybe there is a need for a BDSM notory? But, to be truly legal, wouldn't a contract need to be witnessed?

I don't know how it works in the US, but I'd think it's not that much different from Germany.

If you end up in court because of one party not fulfilling a contract the existence of this contract can be proved by showing the signed contract. If the party insists that they didn't sign it, they have to prove it. And how do you prove you didn't sign something when it's your signature?

If your accused of a crime and taken to court for it, the state has to prove you have done whatever. And if the 'victim' consented you can't be convicted. Now, if there's a contract saying they consent the state has to prove the signature was forced/is faked/whatever. Usually they won't be able to, because only the testimony of the 'victim' won't carry enough weight.
Of course if it's not considered possible to consent to BDSM activities this won't help you any.

 

[chris9]

Don't put limits to the providence ......

 

[babiesmiles]

Although I am not a lawyer I have been an expert witness and have performed a lot of Information Security Forensic analysis. Some tips for those that still want to take the risk of accessing non work related material from work.

What to do if you have been caught:
Never, but never confess to anything.
Always claim innocence.
Claim that it is a virus or spyware.
Even if it is an email, claim it is not yours.
If worst comes to worst refuse to continue any discussion without a lawyer.

Although most IT staff can monitor and will monitor Internet usage it is very rare they collect evidence in a way where the chain of custody has been left intact which means the evidence is pretty much useless.

But it is always better to avoid having to go through an ugly war. Use an anonymous web proxy when going on the Internet from work, there are sites that will encrypt your connections and will make it almost impossible to monitor. Some of these are paid services but there are many that offer at least some free service.

Here are three of the more known one’s:
http://www.anonymizer.com/
http://www.the-cloak.com/anonymous-surfing-home.html
http://proxify.com/

If you can install software there is a great free German product called JAP which will give you a lot of privacy and protection.

http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/

Of course only use this information at your own risk and I advise you still not to use your work internet connection for non work related material.

Francisco.

I fully agree

 

[babiesmiles]

indeed

 

[Marquis]

But, how does someone prove any signatures are valid and thus binding to the contract? Forgery is possible, and if one of the signing parties says they didn't sign, or was forced to sign under duress...?

Sure, in the majority of cases, both are consenting and sign quite willingly. And, I understand the desire for a third party to know about these contracts isn't likely. Maybe there is a need for a BDSM notory? But, to be truly legal, wouldn't a contract need to be witnessed?

Nope.

Factual disputes are left up to a jury unless they are so patent that a jury could only possibly find for one way or the other.

Legally binding contracts don't have to be notarized, witnessed or even written.

Let's say, for example, I want to buy a violet wand so I can seduce this hot anal freak who's really into electroplay. They are on sale at the fetish mart for $150. I call up my old buddy DVS to see if this is a fair price. You tell me that's a pretty good price, but you aren't getting much action these days and you could use some extra cash. You offer to sell me yours for $100. I agree, and we exchange addresses so you can mail me the wand and I can mail you a check.

The next day I call you up to confirm the spelling of your last name, and you tell me you just met a hot anal freak and can't sell me your wand anymore. I go to pick one up at the fetish mart but the sale is over and they now cost $300.

Because I detrimentally relied on your promise, I can recover the $150 your bum deal cost me under the theory of promissory estoppel. If it turns out your anal freak was actually my anal freak and you pulled this whole scam to steal her from me, I might even be able to make the $200 difference between the price I now have to pay and the price you promised me.

In this country doesn't that vary from state to state?

No.

I don't know how it works in the US, but I'd think it's not that much different from Germany.

If you end up in court because of one party not fulfilling a contract the existence of this contract can be proved by showing the signed contract. If the party insists that they didn't sign it, they have to prove it. And how do you prove you didn't sign something when it's your signature?

If your accused of a crime and taken to court for it, the state has to prove you have done whatever. And if the 'victim' consented you can't be convicted. Now, if there's a contract saying they consent the state has to prove the signature was forced/is faked/whatever. Usually they won't be able to, because only the testimony of the 'victim' won't carry enough weight.
Of course if it's not considered possible to consent to BDSM activities this won't help you any.

You cannot consent nor contract to a crime in the US of A. This includes battery. Now you have some slight leeway in the definition of battery, but most heavy S&M play isn't going to make it past a conservative judge or jury.

 

[snowy ciara]

And in some states, impact play is a double whammy. If they can't get you on an assault and battery charge, they'll nail you for prostitution. For example, in Arizona, it's illegal to flog, beat, or other wise inflict pain under a fee agreement. This is actually buried in the prostitution laws, not the assault codes.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

... But, to be truly legal, wouldn't a contract need to be witnessed?

Actually, no. Doesn't have to be written either. Verbal contracts and a handshake can be found just as legally binding. Where written documents and notaries/witnesses come in is _proving_ that the contract was not coerced and that the terms of the contract were agreed upon. IF the contract comes under dispute. If it's never disputed, it's legal and binding from the moment it's agreed to by all parties.

Verbal contracts without witness devolve into "he said/she said" type arguements and a judge has to decide who is the more credible party.

Hope that helps

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

Witnesses

Contracts must be witnessed by a third party...i.e. a notory, or similar to be legal. And, like Evil_Geoff said, a slave contract isn't legal. But, you can be their employer and treat them as your property that way.

Actually after I did the post, I thought about getting the contract notarized. That would not be a problem in Miami, Ft Lauderdale, NYC etc. BUT in Oklahoma City or ?-- I could just imagine trying to find a notary!! LOL I actually lived in Oklahoma for two years -unblievable place.

The only real answer is the society at large. Many people aren't aware of it but when the present US administration took office (no 9/11 then) the sole criteria for appointment to the Attorney General 's office from Ashcroft down was to have a least one successful porno prosecution. The Prez declared that he intended to go down in history as the one who ended all porno.

Reminds me of an interview Johny Carson did with Betty Davis in the " '60's, where he asked her what she thought of the sexual revolution. She said, "What revolution? That's being going on since the human race began. We just lied about it"

Irony of ironies. I think the employee thought is closer to the truth. In the retograde states it seems that an employer can dictate just about every aspect of a person's life. Maybe all the employers are really closet doms!! Florida is also one of those "right to work states" -however, in the South Florida area there is a limit to what they can get away with. At least, if they expect to have any employees.

 

[Guest]

So, when I'm done with my studies and exams and stuff, will you get here to catch me to not let me run loose in public? And does it involve any spankings for attempts to be one?


And that depends on the countrey you are living in... Here I'm happy to say it's possible to agree to be beaten up, so you can make a contract out of it.
Basically you can dispose of your own goods, e.g. you can throw away stuff, which would be theft/destruction if someone else did it without your consent. Same way with being injured (within certain limits-sexual activities used to be without those limits, but not anymore (kinky judge?)). You can't consent to being killed though.

Well....Being a lawyer probably should involve some corporal component...... At least working for the DA's office should....

Lessee, the way it was explained to me went something like this...(Disclaimer...The legal professional involved was very clear on the point that what is "supposed" to happen, and what actually happens, are two different things... And even if you win the court case, the damage is usually already done to your life. )
So ... Even if there is a written, notorized contract, it does not absolve the parties from comitting an illegal act.. Even with the consent of the party being acted on.
They also pointed out that consenting to having some action performed on your person, that the court considers to be (or can be convinced is) threatening to your "life and limb", can be used (by a judge or DA that has an axe to grind) as justification to call into question your competence.
*sigh* Welcome to the nasty realities of the southern U.S. legal system...

 

[chris9]

Well....Being a lawyer probably should involve some corporal component...... At least working for the DA's office should....

Lessee, the way it was explained to me went something like this...(Disclaimer...The legal professional involved was very clear on the point that what is "supposed" to happen, and what actually happens, are two different things... And even if you win the court case, the damage is usually already done to your life. )
So ... Even if there is a written, notorized contract, it does not absolve the parties from comitting an illegal act.. Even with the consent of the party being acted on.
They also pointed out that consenting to having some action performed on your person, that the court considers to be (or can be convinced is) threatening to your "life and limb", can be used (by a judge or DA that has an axe to grind) as justification to call into question your competence.
*sigh* Welcome to the nasty realities of the southern U.S. legal system...

What's a DA?

I think all the pervs should move over to Europe (maybe not Great Brittain -I'm not sure though). We exported the Pilgrims and other of the more stern Christians (no offence meant to anyong) to the US, so the US could just export all the pervs they don't want to here

 

[graceanne]

What's a DA?

I think all the pervs should move over to Europe (maybe not Great Brittain -I'm not sure though). We exported the Pilgrims and other of the more stern Christians (no offence meant to anyong) to the US, so the US could just export all the pervs they don't want to here

District Attorney. They're the ones who prossecute you.

 

[chris9]

District Attorney. They're the ones who prossecute you.

Thank you. American law system is on my program for the time between my exam and the next part of my training.

 

[snowy ciara]

You'll need a box of tissues and a spew alert.... Some of this stuff is like "laugh until you cry.." or "laugh so you don't cry"! Not that home (Canada) is any better, I'm just a little more caught up on weirdness here.

 

[chris9]

You'll need a box of tissues and a spew alert.... Some of this stuff is like "laugh until you cry.." or "laugh so you don't cry"! Not that home (Canada) is any better, I'm just a little more caught up on weirdness here.

I'll take both to the library then. People there probably find me weird already as I tend to start laughing about legal stuff I read, like really unlogical positions/arguments, a high court going crazy again and such. At least I never felt inclined to cry...

 

[DVS]

...in is _proving_ that the contract was not coerced and that the terms of the contract were agreed upon. IF the contract comes under dispute. If it's never disputed, it's legal and binding from the moment it's agreed to by all parties.

Verbal contracts without witness devolve into "he said/she said" type arguements and a judge has to decide who is the more credible party.

Hope that helps

We are both on the same page, Geoff. I'm just talking about when something is disputed. I said "legal". Maybe I should have said "legal and binding" instead.

Sure, anybody can shake hands or even toast with a beer and start a contract. I was talking about if one of those same two parties wanted out of the contract and said "it never happened". If there were no witnesses...and even if there was a contract, if a notory wasn't there to witness and attest to the true identities of the two people signing, there would still be some doubt that it ever happened.

Forgers with fake documents, cheaters, liars, fakes, con artists (those nighttime infomercials)...they can make a good living, if they're smart, skilled and just a little sneaky. If these types weren't around, there would be no need for written contracts, notories, witnesses or Judge Judy. We'd all be true to our word.

 

[graceanne]

We'd all be true to our word.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

ROFLMAO

 

[DVS]

Irony of ironies. I think the employee thought is closer to the truth. In the retograde states it seems that an employer can dictate just about every aspect of a person's life. Maybe all the employers are really closet doms!! Florida is also one of those "right to work states" -however, in the South Florida area there is a limit to what they can get away with. At least, if they expect to have any employees.

I live in one of those "right to work" states, too. There are times when you need to keep a job, for whatever reason. And, employers know this, too. What they legally do to you, in those times should be considered criminal, but all anybody will say is "you have the right to quit, if you don't like what they're doing". Trouble is, when you live in one of these states, many employers are doing the same things...so eventually, the worker is nothing more than an on the job slave. What ever happened to the satisfaction of making a quality product? No need to answer that. It's a rhetorical question.


Sorry all, for the hijack.

 

[DVS]

Nope.

Factual disputes are left up to a jury unless they are so patent that a jury could only possibly find for one way or the other.

Legally binding contracts don't have to be notarized, witnessed or even written.

Let's say, for example, I want to buy a violet wand so I can seduce this hot anal freak who's really into electroplay. They are on sale at the fetish mart for $150. I call up my old buddy DVS to see if this is a fair price. You tell me that's a pretty good price, but you aren't getting much action these days and you could use some extra cash. You offer to sell me yours for $100. I agree, and we exchange addresses so you can mail me the wand and I can mail you a check.

The next day I call you up to confirm the spelling of your last name, and you tell me you just met a hot anal freak and can't sell me your wand anymore. I go to pick one up at the fetish mart but the sale is over and they now cost $300.

Because I detrimentally relied on your promise, I can recover the $150 your bum deal cost me under the theory of promissory estoppel. If it turns out your anal freak was actually my anal freak and you pulled this whole scam to steal her from me, I might even be able to make the $200 difference between the price I now have to pay and the price you promised me.


.

Still, if no contract is signed, and no witnesses saw or heard our conversation, it would be up to you to take me to court and prove our little deal even happened. The weight is on your shoulders to convince others that I (with my shining squeaky clean record for being honest) did in fact make this deal with you.

I guess if we did talk over the phone you could subpoena the phone records, but that would only prove we talked on the phone. And, even though that's somewhat circomstancial, my clean record would counter that. Buddies do talk about other things on the phone. Unless you had more substancial evidence, I think I would win...and possibly counter sue for tarnishing my good name.

Hey man, sorry. I'd never sell my wand so cheap. And, shit...the bitch is really hot and into electroplay!


I think we changed the topic of this thread?

 

[Marquis]

Still, if no contract is signed, and no witnesses saw or heard our conversation, it would be up to you to take me to court and prove our little deal even happened. The weight is on your shoulders to convince others that I (with my shining squeaky clean record for being honest) did in fact make this deal with you.

I guess if we did talk over the phone you could subpoena the phone records, but that would only prove we talked on the phone. And, even though that's somewhat circomstancial, my clean record would counter that. Buddies do talk about other things on the phone. Unless you had more substancial evidence, I think I would win...and possibly counter sue for tarnishing my good name.

Hey man, sorry. I'd never sell my wand so cheap. And, shit...the bitch is really hot and into electroplay!


I think we changed the topic of this thread?

Questions of fact go to the jury.

If we didn't make a deal, why didn't I buy the toy when it was on sale?

Not in all my years as a Presbyterian minister, public notary and Scoutmaster have I ever told a lie!

 

[Xelebes]

Yay, sub-chess.