Behavioral Health

[R. Richard]

I have a bit of a kinship with Hannibal Lecter who likes to fuck with everyone trying to pick his brain apart.

Also Hamlet.

I never asked, but suspect that psychaitrist boy could not play the flute either.

The South Central is the area where the Crips and Bloods gangs started. IMNTHO, paranoia was not a mental disorder in the South Central, but a state of mind necessary for survival.

 

[Recidiva]

I never asked, but suspect that psychaitrist boy could not play the flute either.

The South Central is the area where the Crips and Bloods gangs started. IMNTHO, paranoia was not a mental disorder in the South Central, but a state of mind necessary for survival.

That's the essential flaw of psychology when people are attempting to gauge "normal."

The assumptions that are made in order to assume someone is in a "normal" situation and behaving "abnormally" are astounding.

I prefer "abnormal psychology" as it has much more of a thrust into case by case, which is where I think it's of the most use.

The choices between physical survival and social survival are in conflict so often. I'd prefer that people went for physical survival more often, but the system is really rigged so that you'd best go for social survival if you want to stay out of an institution.

So many of the "negative" emotions or impulses are considered to be negative across the boards, in all contexts, and I think that's insane in itself. According to whom?

When the system has a more comprehensive understanding of pain, anger and fear, I'll have more respect for it.

 

[rgraham666]

So many of the "negative" emotions or impulses are considered to be negative across the boards, in all contexts, and I think that's insane in itself. According to whom?

When the system has a more comprehensive understanding of pain, anger and fear, I'll have more respect for it.

On the contrary, pain, anger and fear are things widely understood and used without restraint by the system every day.

 

[Recidiva]

On the contrary, pain, anger and fear are things widely understood and used without restraint by the system every day.

You made my point better than I did.

I like that.

 

[impressive]

On the contrary, pain, anger and fear are things widely understood and used without restraint by the system every day.

Not just the system.

 

[amicus]

I'm not really getting at anything. Just trying to provoke discussion & learn what others might have to say on the subject.

Thanks for contributing!

~~~

Using the above as rationalization, perhaps a different direction down a different avenue?

I am going to create and present several different scenarios for you to consider in your pursuit of understand human behavior and motivation.

In all of these environments, you the care giver, are on the outside looking in, attempting to formulate the most efficient way to motivate behavior of the group in question.

First, an inner city environment, mix and match to your pleasure, predominantly lower wage earning white, blacks or Hispanics or mixture of your choosing.

Secondly a middle class strongly religious group for one and then to make it more difficult a closed religious society, make it Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Protestant, whatever you wish.

Thirdly, a totalitarian environment, again, choose the degree of totality from the past, like the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or modern day China or North Korea.

And, lastly let us place you in a Muslim society where strict rules of social behavior actually guide your life in detail..

It would appear to me that a behavioralist would have to determine the 'accepted' behavior for each of these groups and counsel to conform, in very general terms?

I imagine you can predict where I am going with this, since I conclude that one could never learn sufficiently all the different motivations within an almost infinite number of social groups, that one must search for underlying basic truths about human behavior and the nature of the critter.

For what it's worth...




Amicus...

 

[impressive]

~~~

Using the above as rationalization, perhaps a different direction down a different avenue?

I am going to create and present several different scenarios for you to consider in your pursuit of understand human behavior and motivation.

In all of these environments, you the care giver, are on the outside looking in, attempting to formulate the most efficient way to motivate behavior of the group in question.

First, an inner city environment, mix and match to your pleasure, predominantly lower wage earning white, blacks or Hispanics or mixture of your choosing.

Secondly a middle class strongly religious group for one and then to make it more difficult a closed religious society, make it Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Protestant, whatever you wish.

Thirdly, a totalitarian environment, again, choose the degree of totality from the past, like the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or modern day China or North Korea.

And, lastly let us place you in a Muslim society where strict rules of social behavior actually guide your life in detail..

It would appear to me that a behavioralist would have to determine the 'accepted' behavior for each of these groups and counsel to conform, in very general terms?

I imagine you can predict where I am going with this, since I conclude that one could never learn sufficiently all the different motivations within an almost infinite number of social groups, that one must search for underlying basic truths about human behavior and the nature of the critter.

For what it's worth...




Amicus...

I agree that the permutations are vast. However, I need only understand the environment in which the individual (or his/her family) chooses to live. Most of the time, it varies little from the environment in which my own children live, although there are variations in standard of living, parenting styles, etc.

For the most part, I operate within that framework.

 

[CharleyH]

Reading xssve's post bought a lot of thoughts up. Especially the way our society marginalizes the mentally and physically disabled.

I believe the main reason for this is religious. Our religion here in the West is rationality and economics. For things to be 'good' they must be 'rational' and 'economically useful'.

You have obviously never been to the U.S., RG.

 

[CharleyH]

Part One: The Rant

As a few of you know, I am again amongst the ranks of the employed (as opposed to the independently contracted -- which I still am/do, too). I left my field of formal study (mathematics/computer science) way back in 1993 to be a stay-at-home-mom. Now, the need for health insurance arising from my divorce has forced me to accept employment.

I've taken a part-time job in a field in which I've been involved for the past 14 years as a volunteer -- first as just an advocate for my own child, then as an advocate for all individuals with disabilities. Over the years, I've developed quite a reputation in my community, my state, and even nationwide in certain circles due to a team on which I served during the last reauthorization of IDEA (the federal special education law). Desperate parents call me for help, bureaucrats fidget when I attend public meetings, the statewide newspaper occasionally asks me to write counterpoint OpEds, and my legislators (and especially their staff people) all know me well.

That being said, I have no formal qualifications for this job. Just some damned intense on-the-job training. I'm quite confident that I can do it and do it well.

However, it alarms me that someone with an unrelated degree can be hired, run through what amounts to a day-long training session, and then be considered "qualified" to assess a child's behavior, develop a behavior plan, and train direct care staff on the implementation of that behavior plan. Seriously. The people filling positions like the one I now hold are considered "experts" -- and they could know JACK SQUAT. They could be perpetuating -- or even instigating -- behavior problems due to complete ignorance, and it's completely legitimate in the sense that all regulatory requirements are being met.

Part Two: The Pondering

The psychology of behavior and motivation, though, is absolutely fascinating. I adore the process of dissecting behavior to ascertain its function using the mantra: all behavior is communication. The lessons learned while working with children who have autism or other behavioral challenges are easily applied to others. It's almost enough to make me want to go back to school and study it formally. Almost.

I've often heard folks refer to the AH as one big psych experiment, and we've certainly seen a case study or six. The recent AH reality TV show threads have only made it more obvious to me that our e-community is a fishbowl for anyone seeking research material.

So ... do you dig digging into behaviors? Do you wonder what motivates people to do the things they do? Why someone chooses to spend a ridiculous amount of time and energy on an activity that has no potential to bear fruit? What need they're attempting to address?

Do you take it a step further, into the realm of experimentation -- or even manipulation? (I mean, what's a "behavior intervention plan" but a formal mind fuck?) Find out what happens when you press this button?

There is plenty of available research on positive versus negative reinforcement, and the prevailing wisdom is that positive is more effective in the long term. Makes sense to me. Still, the prevalence of people who've been conditioned to roll-over-sit-stay-speak to what amounts to emotional assault just boggles my mind.

Oh, well. I'm rambling now. Feel free to share your thoughts on the subject(s).

This initial thread captivated my attention the moment I read it this morning, Imp. Intriguing query and the reason I quote again.

First off, congrats. Second, and regarding your point one ... qualifications for a job do not necessarily translate into 'good for, or up for the job'. Many people may be qualified on paper, yet I believe 14 years of volunteer work would personally make me want to hire you in two seconds over the person with a BA and a half year placement. I'm all with mismused on inflating your ego here.

On point 2: Behaviour and motivation are extremely important to me as a writer. They are important to me as a person, as well. I agree that all behaviour is communication - frankly, how can it not be? We use words, gestures, actions only to communicate wants/desires/needs.

To answer your questions specifically:

Yes, I dig digging. I love discovering motivation. I think we all do, why else would Reality TV be interesting? Okay, so Reality TV isn't interesting to me, but I do rubberneck when there's an accident.

I do take it a step further and experiment.

I'd like to ask you to expand on this following statement if you might: "the prevalence of people who've been conditioned to roll-over-sit-stay-speak to what amounts to emotional assault just boggles my mind."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ET AL

I love the anecdotal drool.

My graduate program consisted of 60 hours of psychology coursework and 60 hours of rehabilitation coursework, 2 practicums, a thesis, and a 16 week internship. I did my thesis on the genetics of alcoholism. My rehab coursework included head & spinal cord injuries, addictions, several clinical courses, and several testing & measurement courses and statistics. I also took a comprehensive final exam: 5 essay questions taken from EVERYTHING I learned in the entire program.

I've evaluated 1000s of people. Whatever was brought in the door. People with epilepsy, people with drug rotted brains, alzheimers, Korsakoff's Psychosis, senile dementia, plus all the other stuff. People often drove up, opened the door, put their foot against their partner's ass, and pushed them out of the car. Shove the bitch out of the car. I've found people dead outside. I cant number all the nasty, violent drunks I had to take down.

One man called me from God Knows Where and announced he ate a bottle of meds. Then he collapsed on the floor, wherever he was. A drunk called me and said he had a gun and was gonna blow his brains out. A woman came in with a live grenade. Guns, knives, etc.

When youve evaluated 10,000 pieces of shit, you get the idea people are not mysterious or interesting. Mostly theyre stupid and losers....like a few of the posters here.

 

[Recidiva]

ET AL

I love the anecdotal drool.

My graduate program consisted of 60 hours of psychology coursework and 60 hours of rehabilitation coursework, 2 practicums, a thesis, and a 16 week internship. I did my thesis on the genetics of alcoholism. My rehab coursework included head & spinal cord injuries, addictions, several clinical courses, and several testing & measurement courses and statistics. I also took a comprehensive final exam: 5 essay questions taken from EVERYTHING I learned in the entire program.

I've evaluated 1000s of people. Whatever was brought in the door. People with epilepsy, people with drug rotted brains, alzheimers, Korsakoff's Psychosis, senile dementia, plus all the other stuff. People often drove up, opened the door, put their foot against their partner's ass, and pushed them out of the car. Shove the bitch out of the car. I've found people dead outside. I cant number all the nasty, violent drunks I had to take down.

One man called me from God Knows Where and announced he ate a bottle of meds. Then he collapsed on the floor, wherever he was. A drunk called me and said he had a gun and was gonna blow his brains out. A woman came in with a live grenade. Guns, knives, etc.

When youve evaluated 10,000 pieces of shit, you get the idea people are not mysterious or interesting. Mostly theyre stupid and losers....like a few of the posters here.

Look, anecdotal vomit

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Sticks and stones, dear.

 

[Recidiva]

Sticks and stones, dear.

Bitterness, darling.

 

[impressive]

ET AL

I love the anecdotal drool.

My graduate program consisted of 60 hours of psychology coursework and 60 hours of rehabilitation coursework, 2 practicums, a thesis, and a 16 week internship. I did my thesis on the genetics of alcoholism. My rehab coursework included head & spinal cord injuries, addictions, several clinical courses, and several testing & measurement courses and statistics. I also took a comprehensive final exam: 5 essay questions taken from EVERYTHING I learned in the entire program.

I've evaluated 1000s of people. Whatever was brought in the door. People with epilepsy, people with drug rotted brains, alzheimers, Korsakoff's Psychosis, senile dementia, plus all the other stuff. People often drove up, opened the door, put their foot against their partner's ass, and pushed them out of the car. Shove the bitch out of the car. I've found people dead outside. I cant number all the nasty, violent drunks I had to take down.

One man called me from God Knows Where and announced he ate a bottle of meds. Then he collapsed on the floor, wherever he was. A drunk called me and said he had a gun and was gonna blow his brains out. A woman came in with a live grenade. Guns, knives, etc.

When youve evaluated 10,000 pieces of shit, you get the idea people are not mysterious or interesting. Mostly theyre stupid and losers....like a few of the posters here.

I feel sorry for you. May you find light in all you do and in all you encounter.

 

[impressive]

I'd like to ask you to expand on this following statement if you might: "the prevalence of people who've been conditioned to roll-over-sit-stay-speak to what amounts to emotional assault just boggles my mind."

It seems as if many "normal" adults with whom I interact respond in "positive" ways to negative reinforcement -- whereas the positive reinforcement doesn't have anywhere near the same result. It's bass-ackward.

 

[CharleyH]

ET AL

I love the anecdotal drool.

My graduate program consisted of 60 hours of psychology coursework and 60 hours of rehabilitation coursework, 2 practicums, a thesis, and a 16 week internship. I did my thesis on the genetics of alcoholism. My rehab coursework included head & spinal cord injuries, addictions, several clinical courses, and several testing & measurement courses and statistics. I also took a comprehensive final exam: 5 essay questions taken from EVERYTHING I learned in the entire program.

I've evaluated 1000s of people. Whatever was brought in the door. People with epilepsy, people with drug rotted brains, alzheimers, Korsakoff's Psychosis, senile dementia, plus all the other stuff. People often drove up, opened the door, put their foot against their partner's ass, and pushed them out of the car. Shove the bitch out of the car. I've found people dead outside. I cant number all the nasty, violent drunks I had to take down.

One man called me from God Knows Where and announced he ate a bottle of meds. Then he collapsed on the floor, wherever he was. A drunk called me and said he had a gun and was gonna blow his brains out. A woman came in with a live grenade. Guns, knives, etc.

When youve evaluated 10,000 pieces of shit, you get the idea people are not mysterious or interesting. Mostly theyre stupid and losers....like a few of the posters here.

Enh, shrugs. Those 10,000 pieces of shit are more interesting characters for a novel than you or I.

 

[CharleyH]

It seems as if many "normal" adults with whom I interact respond in "positive" ways to negative reinforcement -- whereas the positive reinforcement doesn't have anywhere near the same result. It's bass-ackward.

Tricky, yet sadly understood.

 

[rgraham666]

It seems as if many "normal" adults with whom I interact respond in "positive" ways to negative reinforcement -- whereas the positive reinforcement doesn't have anywhere near the same result. It's bass-ackward.

I can relate to this one.

When I was growing up the closest I could expect in the way of positive feedback was nothing. More common was a rolling of eyes and a sad sigh as I disappointed people yet again.

I gave up trying after a while.

 

[jomar]

Me nephew is a psychologist. He says you really only need two terms to assess child behavior: "Fuckwad" and "Damned little Shitbird"

I beg to differ. The term FLK* has been in use and been useful for many years.

That's the essential flaw of psychology when people are attempting to gauge "normal."

The assumptions that are made in order to assume someone is in a "normal" situation and behaving "abnormally" are astounding.

Perhaps you could clarify the second sentence. My impression from talking with folks is that there is great allowance in psychology/psychiatry for individual/cultural variations in behavior, even to the act of suicide. Hopefully, an experienced professional will take culture and beliefs into account in assessing someone. Although, first that professional must know that culture. Mostly, it seems to me, mental health professionals take the stance that if behavior/thoughts are weird or quirky, so what. If it's interfering with daily living or relationships, etc, then it may be a syndrome or disorder or something.



*Funny Looking Kid

 

[Recidiva]

Perhaps you could clarify the second sentence. My impression from talking with folks is that there is great allowance in psychology/psychiatry for individual/cultural variations in behavior, even to the act of suicide. Hopefully, an experienced professional will take culture and beliefs into account in assessing someone. Although, first that professional must know that culture. Mostly, it seems to me, mental health professionals take the stance that if behavior/thoughts are weird or quirky, so what. If it's interfering with daily living or relationships, etc, then it may be a syndrome or disorder or something.

Mostly from my viewpoint, particularly dealing with the autism end of the spectrum...all the rules that apply to "normal" people (social pressures, peer pressure, discipline) are exactly the wrong thing to apply to an autistic kid.

So the stuff that works on normal kids will make an autistic child completely implode.

It's a bit like general practitioners versus a specialist. Yes, cutting down on salt and cholesterol and the like seem like a good idea. But not if you're a cardiologist and your patient has low blood pressure.

Many "common sense" psych tenets or child behavior or even people behavior tenets are the equivalent of throwing water on a grease fire.

 

[impressive]

Mostly from my viewpoint, particularly dealing with the autism end of the spectrum...all the rules that apply to "normal" people (social pressures, peer pressure, discipline) are exactly the wrong thing to apply to an autistic kid.

So the stuff that works on normal kids will make an autistic child completely implode.

It's a bit like general practitioners versus a specialist. Yes, cutting down on salt and cholesterol and the like seem like a good idea. But not if you're a cardiologist and your patient has low blood pressure.

Many "common sense" psych tenets or child behavior or even people behavior tenets are the equivalent of throwing water on a grease fire.

Conversely, though, the methods that have been demonstrated as effective for kids with autism spectrum disorders are often very effective for kids without.

 

[Recidiva]

Conversely, though, the methods that have been demonstrated as effective for kids with autism spectrum disorders are often very effective for kids without.

Right. Which is more my point.

The standard "normal" treatment is to disapprove, withhold privilege and affection, punish and also provide some manner of social status pressure.

That's what happens in schools, that's the way it's supposed to work. Grades and comparison to each other, expecting disapproval from teachers and peers to do most of the work for you.

That's a lot of negative feedback. Plenty of people thrive in this environment, it's valid. But it's standard and expected to work on everyone.

 

[impressive]

Right. Which is more my point.

The standard "normal" treatment is to disapprove, withhold privilege and affection, punish and also provide some manner of social status pressure.

That's what happens in schools, that's the way it's supposed to work. Grades and comparison to each other, expecting disapproval from teachers and peers to do most of the work for you.

That's a lot of negative feedback. Plenty of people thrive in this environment, it's valid. But it's standard and expected to work on everyone.

There are some nice whole-school PBS initiatives ongoing around the country. It was the one area of special education law actually strengthened by the reauthorization.

 

[Recidiva]

There are some nice whole-school PBS initiatives ongoing around the country. It was the one area of special education law actually strengthened by the reauthorization.

That's great. I really had to undergo a complete paradigm shift of attitude.

It's faster, it's easier, it's quicker, it takes fewer resources to do it the "normal" way.

But with the results I see from the patient, harder, slower, intensive approach, it's impossible for me to go back to thinking it benefits a normal child to do it the first way.

 

[impressive]

That's great. I really had to undergo a complete paradigm shift of attitude.

It's faster, it's easier, it's quicker, it takes fewer resources to do it the "normal" way.

But with the results I see from the patient, harder, slower, intensive approach, it's impossible for me to go back to thinking it benefits a normal child to do it the first way.

Agreed.


Fortunately, the agency for which I work has what I consider the "correct" philosophy in terms of facilitating appropriate behavior (as opposed to controlling inappropriate behavior). I wouldn't work for them otherwise.