butter's stuff: the good, the ugly, and the incomplete

[butters]

Mmmmmm... HAMlet!

he didn't make a hash of it

 

[butters]

I don't know that there's much beyond this worldly stage. Of course, there are regional magazines, narrower collegiate publications... This is the sort of place that hits individual poets from all over the English speaking world. I don't think she writes according to the tastes of the forum. The original post in this thread sorta spells it out, what represents ChipButty as poet.

the internet does offer a broad horizon for our writing, this site being just one small point along that imaginary and convoluted skyline... it is more easily accessible than print for most, though print publications are often found online nowadays, too, keeping up with the markets.

no, i definitely don't write to the set tastes of this forum, but then again i don't see any recognised standard of that. in the past, when trying to become a more homogenised writer for the sake of whatever site deemed i should be, it was always an unfulfilling experience and i would flit about till i found somewhere i felt happy.

and now you have me looking back and wondering what it's spelling out

 

[butters]

And, of course, there are international magazines, selective collegiate publications, etc.

Unless you mean to suggest that this forum (Literotica) represents the best of English-language poetry? Or that the readership here is more discerning than that of print publications? I would disagree with either.

The original post here says "(I) am considering where to sub or if even to sub at all."-- clearly she is interested in feedback that helps refine her work for other markets. A laudable goal.

You and I feel differently about the archaic phrasing in the poem under review. That is fine: each of is presenting an opinion. But I think you do her a disfavor if you suggest that an unreviewed bulletin board should be her highest aspiration.

Thank you, by the way, for referring me back to the original post. I had not read it, and it was good to see the sort of work chipbutty has been producing, as well as the feedback she has been getting.

I have also enjoyed familiarizing myself with your work. Is there a poem or three in your Lit collection that you are particularly proud of or feel best represents your style?

right now, my life dictates a certain confusing lack of direction. for each step forward, there seem to be three backwards - and not even in the area of my writing. personal stuff, trying to find paid employment, it all eats away at my time and ability to get on my poetry head. this is why i've not yet offered anything like an indepth response to some of your material, corndog. the right place needs to present itself at the right time, and then i'm unstoppable ... type so much my damned fingers hurt more to the point, it seems to make sense (well, to me at any rate).

i've had pieces published internationally in print (sounds much more important than its reality) as well as the obligatory anthologies, but intend to start subbing up a level ... but that means writing better and putting in the work to edit more stringently. but then becoming a mod here, i thought it right to sub some to main site and that's why most of those were older pieces.

these are the last i subbed elsewhere, and had rejected, but i still like personally perhaps you have some suggestions that'd help me move them on? sometimes, though, i need years to get that perspective that allows me to see how i could write them differently.

positive thinking

in a dark and burning world
where even ice catches fire
where skies peel
and the soil is sour
where howl-back oscillates
cinder cone to horizon
a shabby soul
may yet get clean

at least
it's what i tell myself









spirit

it's when i close my eyes
close out the madding crush
allow the hush to come
it's at these times
these quiet, hungry times
i feel you

 

[corndog_]

right now, my life dictates a certain confusing lack of direction. for each step forward, there seem to be three backwards - and not even in the area of my writing. personal stuff, trying to find paid employment, it all eats away at my time and ability to get on my poetry head. this is why i've not yet offered anything like an indepth response to some of your material, corndog. the right place needs to present itself at the right tie, and then i'm unstoppable ... type so much my damned fingers hurt more to the point, it seems to make sense (well, to me at any rate).

i've had pieces published internationally in print (sounds much more important than its reality) as well as the obligatory anthologies, but intend to start subbing up a level ... but that means writing better and putting in the work to edit more stringently. but then becoming a mod here, i thought it right to sub some to main site and that's why most of those were older pieces.

....

I'm sorry to hear that, cb. And, while suffering and anxiety may provide fodder for poetry, they aren't much fun at the time.

Whether suffering improves art is an unresolved question, but artistic sensibilities can help us deal with dark times. I am presently writing as a tool to help me deal with a recent loss. May it serve you, too.

 

[corndog_]

....
these are the last i subbed elsewhere, and had rejected, but i still like personally perhaps you have some suggestions that'd help me move them on? sometimes, though, i need years to get that perspective that allows me to see how i could write them differently.

positive thinking

in a dark and burning world
where even ice catches fire
where skies peel
and the soil is sour
where howl-back oscillates
cinder cone to horizon
a shabby soul
may yet get clean

at least
it's what i tell myself









spirit

it's when i close my eyes
close out the madding crush
allow the hush to come
it's at these times
these quiet, hungry times
i feel you

I like them both, cb, the second more than the first. That surprises me a little, because the first is much more concrete and that is my usual taste. But the images of the first are fantasy: while a "dark and burning world" where "ice catches fire" is a real thing, I've never seen one.

Such an expression requires me to create the image for myself. Great (all poetry should do some of this), but with images that are entirely outside readers' experience, the author really can't know what sort of image I create. My image might be a violent one, filled with pain and noise. Or it might be an empty one, full of longing and introspection. Etc.

Assuming you have a message in mind, or at least an emotional state you want to induce, fantastic images compromise your control over the experience. Give the reader some leash, but lead him.

Is the bathos of the last two lines intended? I'm not a big fan, but perhaps you mean to turn it that way.

The second poem is much more satisfying to me. It uses simple images to convey an experience many of us have shared. My only thought on why it may have been rejected is that it is quite general, and therefore offers no particular surprise or insight.

So often we hear "trim this one back"-- I think this one would benefit from expansion. I like the ambiguity of the characters involved-- it allows readers to substitute themselves and an acquaintance-- but I'd like to know more about this "maddening crush." A setting and/or an event would catch my interest, and might foreshadow both the "quiet hungry times" and the relief the N feels from recall.

If you ever find time to revisit this one I'd love to see it!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

When I was in an unhappy marriage I literally couldn't stop writing it just poured out and then I left him for someone else and eventually remarried but writing wise it was like running into a brick wall. I was blocked completely and had to force myself to write again

 

[corndog_]

When I was in an unhappy marriage I literally couldn't stop writing it just poured out and then I left him for someone else and eventually remarried but writing wise it was like running into a brick wall. I was blocked completely and had to force myself to write again

It is a coping strategy for many of us. It may or may not produce good poetry, but it certainly produces healing.

I'm glad things have improved for you, even if it stems your flow!

 

[butters]

I'm sorry to hear that, cb. And, while suffering and anxiety may provide fodder for poetry, they aren't much fun at the time.

Whether suffering improves art is an unresolved question, but artistic sensibilities can help us deal with dark times. I am presently writing as a tool to help me deal with a recent loss. May it serve you, too.

there's stress and there's stress some i find myself writing like a demon through (second marriage for example) but the sort of confusion of the practical aspects of life (my no2 son, job hunting etc) leaves me wide open to 'feel' what's being written here but incoherent, largely, when it comes to making decent comments. i'm a bit like worzel gummidge with the wrong head on.

so sorry for your loss, cd, and if writing helps then it is a tool to embrace, indeed.

 

[butters]

I like them both, cb, the second more than the first. That surprises me a little, because the first is much more concrete and that is my usual taste. But the images of the first are fantasy: while a "dark and burning world" where "ice catches fire" is a real thing, I've never seen one.

Such an expression requires me to create the image for myself. Great (all poetry should do some of this), but with images that are entirely outside readers' experience, the author really can't know what sort of image I create. My image might be a violent one, filled with pain and noise. Or it might be an empty one, full of longing and introspection. Etc.

Assuming you have a message in mind, or at least an emotional state you want to induce, fantastic images compromise your control over the experience. Give the reader some leash, but lead him.

Is the bathos of the last two lines intended? I'm not a big fan, but perhaps you mean to turn it that way.

The second poem is much more satisfying to me. It uses simple images to convey an experience many of us have shared. My only thought on why it may have been rejected is that it is quite general, and therefore offers no particular surprise or insight.

So often we hear "trim this one back"-- I think this one would benefit from expansion. I like the ambiguity of the characters involved-- it allows readers to substitute themselves and an acquaintance-- but I'd like to know more about this "maddening crush." A setting and/or an event would catch my interest, and might foreshadow both the "quiet hungry times" and the relief the N feels from recall.

If you ever find time to revisit this one I'd love to see it!

you have no idea how much i really really appreciate your time and input on these, dog. srsly.

the ice catching fire part was from a document about the ice fields in russia: as the global temps have warmed, the ice has thinned allowing the gradual release of a huge store of methane gas (i think it was methane); and it often catches fire on release ... it was quite an amazing sight, the darkened ice-fields, the flares of flame against the backdrop of night... it was the image that inspired the write, the whole 'possible world of the future due to blah blah blah stuff'. as for the bathos, it was my intention to bring the poem to a personal level as i wrote that, though it was not intended to be ludicrous. that's pretty embarrassing.

'the madding crush' = the insanity, the hubub of humanity, so the crushing effect i feel from prolonged contact with its presence rather than the fact it maddens me.

time is going to have to lend me perspective on this one to see how to begin to change it, tbh. this is often the case for me, and i'll revisit years later and suddenly it's all clear - mostly where i've developed new skills or a better oversight. i edit and edit till it feels right for me at the time, and then am often surprised years later when the obvious flaws are revealed

 

[butters]

When I was in an unhappy marriage I literally couldn't stop writing it just poured out and then I left him for someone else and eventually remarried but writing wise it was like running into a brick wall. I was blocked completely and had to force myself to write again

i get this completely, annie

 

[bflagsst]

And, of course, there are international magazines, selective collegiate publications, etc.

Unless you mean to suggest that this forum (Literotica) represents the best of English-language poetry? Or that the readership here is more discerning than that of print publications? I would disagree with either.

The original post here says "(I) am considering where to sub or if even to sub at all."-- clearly she is interested in feedback that helps refine her work for other markets. A laudable goal.

You and I feel differently about the archaic phrasing in the poem under review. That is fine: each of is presenting an opinion. But I think you do her a disfavor if you suggest that an unreviewed bulletin board should be her highest aspiration.

Thank you, by the way, for referring me back to the original post. I had not read it, and it was good to see the sort of work chipbutty has been producing, as well as the feedback she has been getting.

I have also enjoyed familiarizing myself with your work. Is there a poem or three in your Lit collection that you are particularly proud of or feel best represents your style?

This forum doesn't often present new poetry or even the best of the poets who post. The reason I've found this forum preferable to the magazines and print publications(even the ones that have been gracious enough to publish my work) is the genuine dialogue with other poets. I've found it's much more rewarding knowing someone will actually read and care about your words when you have something to present, as opposed to the opaque nature of the magazine or journal, where you send your very best and there is no response from the reader upon publication. This seemingly convoluted point in poetry world has given me more pleasure than any publication. All I have to do is care about the words of other poets and they respond in turn.

Which brings us back to the original post. I asked ChipButty to share some of her poems because at the time she was interested in mine. And if you're interested in my poems, I ask you to share something of yourself as poet. I think my style is represented well in each of my poems on my submissions page, some I love, some have become unloved, yet my best reside elsewhere. So this forum and website, is in my opinion, far from the place to present the best of what a poet has to offer in English language world, while being the best possible stage for a poet who cares about dialogue with other poets and the historicity of what it means to poeticize.

 

[corndog_]

you have no idea how much i really really appreciate your time and input on these, dog. srsly.

the ice catching fire part was from a document about the ice fields in russia: as the global temps have warmed, the ice has thinned allowing the gradual release of a huge store of methane gas (i think it was methane); and it often catches fire on release ... it was quite an amazing sight, the darkened ice-fields, the flares of flame against the backdrop of night... it was the image that inspired the write, the whole 'possible world of the future due to blah blah blah stuff'. as for the bathos, it was my intention to bring the poem to a personal level as i wrote that, though it was not intended to be ludicrous. that's pretty embarrassing.

'the madding crush' = the insanity, the hubub of humanity, so the crushing effect i feel from prolonged contact with its presence rather than the fact it maddens me.

time is going to have to lend me perspective on this one to see how to begin to change it, tbh. this is often the case for me, and i'll revisit years later and suddenly it's all clear - mostly where i've developed new skills or a better oversight. i edit and edit till it feels right for me at the time, and then am often surprised years later when the obvious flaws are revealed

You prompted me to look up "bathos"! Merriam-Webster (that smarty pants) defines it a little stronger than I intended it: I meant only that your poem abruptly turns prosaic. The poem lays the groundwork for a profound conclusion that the last two lines don't deliver.

But that is not necessarily a bad thing: there is humor (and profundity) in linking lofty images with mundane truths-- if it is what you intended, then keep it.

The "maddening crush" is well-understood, but it is a generalization. Many things qualify as elements of the insanity of daily life. But I'd like to know specifically. I think the poem would be more interesting if you described an event or setting that leads me, as a reader, to conclude "ah, her day is maddening and insane."

Again, I'm probably saying things you already know, but a basic tenet of contemporary poetry is "show, don't tell." Don't tell me your day is crazy, show me. With concrete images and interesting language.

Good luck with revision!

 

[bflagsst]

Not to get too off topic in Chip's poetry thread, but to follow up. It's surprising where the best poems turn up. Of the poems written or spoken, within my eye or earshot the past five or so years, I think this one is the best: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=320794

When you admire a living poet you can just email them, maybe get to know them a bit, maybe they'll even ask you to share your work...that's much too reflexive, community is much more valuable and harder to come by with a zillion people looking for publication.

 

[corndog_]

This forum doesn't often present new poetry or even the best of the poets who post. The reason I've found this forum preferable to the magazines and print publications(even the ones that have been gracious enough to publish my work) is the genuine dialogue with other poets. I've found it's much more rewarding knowing someone will actually read and care about your words when you have something to present, as opposed to the opaque nature of the magazine or journal, where you send your very best and there is no response from the reader upon publication. This seemingly convoluted point in poetry world has given me more pleasure than any publication. All I have to do is care about the words of other poets and they respond in turn.

Which brings us back to the original post. I asked ChipButty to share some of her poems because at the time she was interested in mine. And if you're interested in my poems, I ask you to share something of yourself as poet. I think my style is represented well in each of my poems on my submissions page, some I love, some have become unloved, yet my best reside elsewhere. So this forum and website, is in my opinion, far from the place to present the best of what a poet has to offer in English language world, while being the best possible stage for a poet who cares about dialogue with other poets and the historicity of what it means to poeticize.

Well said. Thanks for your clarification!

I share your frustration with the opacity of the journal process, and simultaneously share the frustration with editors inundated with piles of doggeral. Mine included.

I don't post on the "other side" of lit, but I have few here on the forum. "I love what you've done with the place" is probably more akin to my usual style; "the english language" is a venture astray.

 

[corndog_]

Not to get too off topic in Chip's poetry thread, but to follow up. It's surprising where the best poems turn up. Of the poems written or spoken, within my eye or earshot, the last five or so years, I think this one is the best: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=320794

When you admire a living poet you can just email them, maybe get to know them a bit, maybe they'll even ask you to share your work...that's much too reflexive, community is much more valuable and harder to come by with a zillion people looking for publication.

I, too, am a fan of twelve's poetry. He was (is?) also a valuable participant in the community, here. I learned a great deal from him.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

It is a coping strategy for many of us. It may or may not produce good poetry, but it certainly produces healing.

I'm glad things have improved for you, even if it stems your flow!

My flow is just fine now (mostly) thank you

 

[butters]

the poet as a director

replete
word-stuffed
our hunger's needs he
meets with living images that pose a
pretty pastiche or, more often, throw
a shadow, crook'd and hollowing, along and
up the angles of a room
pointing our attention to the cracks between the bricks that let the
whisper of the mourning wind steal through

he makes the flag-stoned floor tilt awkwar-
-dly away, mis-footing us a moment be
fore turning our attention to the almost but not-quite-yet
silent door
as if a door could speak. it does!
though in a language never meant for words upon a screen
more fingering of things inside the mind
things old and vital, holding us in place
apace
weighing up the odds of what-comes-next? de-
ciding if to hide or fight or on-the-balls-of-feet poised breath
and heartbeat flight

and then
when nerves are strung all wire-tight upon the point of snap
he'll on our hunched and frozen shoulders tap
to make us start and turn (as his intent)
to face what's in the room
it always was
he holds the mirror up to us

...








just a live write, but got interrupted loads of times by the door and trick or treaters

maybe i'll pick its bones another day. more likely squirrel away the concept of the adept writer directing our responses to use another day. again. one day i'll write it right.

 

[butters]

he smelled of summer-apples
and wore sunshine in his hair
his smile was sweet and easy
and his laughter lingered there

my mother sighed and patted me
he's not for you, i fear -
but we should introduce him, soon,
to cousin Sean, the dear

 

[butters]

this morning's shorts

writer's thought
comes, goes
snowflake melts





worn photo album
soundless memories
old dog mouths bone
/
worn photo album
the clock ticks
old dog mouths bone




five months pregnant
spotting blood
lion in the grass





dark cave entrance
lit by shaft
solstice son

 

[butters]

today's live write on nerk's thread

spring thaw
rarefied air
a new boyfriend

 

[vrosej10]

wishing
I was him
summer storm​

 

[butters]

wishing
I was him
summer storm​

hiya vrosej - i'd like to ask about your line-break choice between l1 and l2... i actually like the fact it makes for a more profound statement, and two separate 'thoughts'. if it were simply 'wishing i was him/summer storm', it is more throwaway. thanks for adding to this thread! ^5's

 

[butters]

cloudburst
green corn flattened
too much, too soon












(thinking on-screen... just a 'moment', head to page. sigh)

 

[butters]

morning's take on Rudolph - don't mind me

Rudolph, your red nose concerns me;
as a metaphor, though, 'tis quite sweet -
but it's proving a dancer's distraction
and the swan's tripping over her feet.
It's even outshining the footlights
and the audience find it quite strange;
not so much fowls on the blue lake -
more a yippee-yi-yo on the range!
We'll follow you still, leaping Rudolph,
even Margot, for you're quite the rage -
but please leave the props in the left wing
and dance, like it's Christmas, on stage!

 

[vrosej10]

hiya vrosej - i'd like to ask about your line-break choice between l1 and l2... i actually like the fact it makes for a more profound statement, and two separate 'thoughts'. if it were simply 'wishing i was him/summer storm', it is more throwaway. thanks for adding to this thread! ^5's

Its a popular haiku trick designed to slow the poem and focus on the individual aspects, the kind of mini phrases. I wanted the wishing to come over as the 'big' element. I see it worked.