Delving the Psyche of Sadists

[RJMasters]

I'm trying to relate this to my own bar-fight-less experience.

I feel a rush of adreniline when making a grown man cry.

If he doesn't want to be crying and has no idea that I'm trying to make him cry, if it's not spelled out in any fashion, if he's just genuinely hurt I have emotionally abused him and I feel like an asshole and I well should. And I have, more than I'd ever like to admit. Given no outlets no channel for my fetishes, in a quashed situation, I will become an emotional abuser, it's only a matter of when.

I am not a poster girl of mental health. DSMV style. I make it a point to let those who are falling in love with me know this. And I'm working on things and have made great progress. But I never want to be a total poster child of mental health, either.

I have moved deeper and deeper into a fetishization, if you will, around trust and consent, as I came to embrace SM. I realized I could have those feelings sate those urges, but in a joyous full way, without the guilt and self reproach and self hate, if I found someone to be a co-conspirator on the project and get into the pain. If I found someone who needed to hear those sweet four little words "you stupid fucking cunt." as much as I needed someone to say them to. Aw.

Even though some animal part of my pain is thinking "glee!" when I emotionally abuse the vanilla and well meaning party-- And it is, but that's kind of fucked up, and not in a fun or joyous way or even a productive way. I don't find real-world havoc arousing, I just don't. No more than I might sate my sadistic urges by slapping up little old ladies in public. You just can't go around using up the resuorces that didn't do anything to you.


If it's somehow agreed, if he's complicit, even in some tacit and murkier way based on shared understanding or prior relationship (high risk and very subjective, but high payoff) then I'm generally happy and aroused and I feel like a smashing success Then it's *perversion.* Perversion is self-aware, in my book, it's that delicious complicity with one's own abasement or humiliation or ass whopping....

I often use this line on clients...it's absurd to be a fetishist, it's absurd to be a masochist, do we not groove on that absurdity?

"not only do you want me to tell you you're a loser, you are PAYING me for the honor of my spit!"

That, and similar paradoxes, are what arouse me these days. It's not a contest or even survival of the fittest, it's a strange and edgy, brutal art, and everyone's creativity is getting tested.

yep...yep...and yep. That smacks so much of truth I can relate too..ty Netz.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Waffle Alert

What's your cup of tea?

Pain delivered via unbridled violence or calculated pain? Neither, both?

Any dipshit can bitch slap a wench into the middle of next week. It takes a little more effort to make the self same wench sit in a puddle of her own cunt juice mewling and begging for more in spite of herself.

That isn't to say, however, the occasional ringless openhanded bellringer doesn't have its use in the appropriate time and place.

 

[Guest]

Sorry for the earlier digression..Having taken a bit of the edge off tonight...*sigh and GRIN* I can return to what I use instead of intelligent discourse..

What's your cup of tea?
Pain delivered via unbridled violence or calculated pain? Neither, both?

I don't have a great deal of use for unbridled violence..My thing is a calculated application of sensation. *grin* In a bit of a conceit, I like to compare it to the painting of a picture, or the playing of a musical instrument..
But..
After looking at some of the recent posts, and giving it serious thought..I am in a bit of a quandry..
You see, While it happens in a sexual context..I cannot say without reservation that I regard it, (subconciously at least) as sexual.
And by "sexual" I mean that there is obvious evidence of sexual response..Immediate erectile response etc....(though I am one of those that never saw the point to a "scene" without sexual component, and have never really bothered with one{outside of a plarty} where there wasn't)
This, I will have to give some thought to.
Interesting...

Also..A thought that struck me in passing, was that the less tension I was under to satisfy the more sadistic tendancies..The greater my initial sexual response to the situation. I.E. Bondage etc...

I will say this in passing though.. I have never had any response of a sexual nature in the few fights that I have been involved in..
Part of that (I assume) is the simple pre-occupation with winning. I would sort of assume that another part of it would be the compressed time involved. And I would guess, that a third would be the lack of ...Hmm structure, is a good word.

 

[Pure]

Hi N,

That's an illuminating account.

[There could be joyous fulfillment]// if I found someone to be a co-conspirator on the project and get into the pain.//

Since you are an expert on Masoch, I pose this question: I can see complicity around pain, but not around someone's exercize of power over the other ('domination' as it's often called).

The dilemma of 'Venus in Furs' is that the slave, besides being complicit, attempts to bind the mistress; it's not too much to say, keep ahold of her and control her. On her side, if she *actually* exercizes her perogative (privilege of power) then it ends the relationship (he quits it, despite the contract; the contract has a few hidden or implicit clauses, as it were).

Very crudely then, do you see a 'power over' situation when the other's complicity (as I think it might) is secured through (or contingent on) a pledge on your part?** Do you or don't you have (and take) the power to drop A [present complicit partner] and get involved (sexually and emotionally) with B [a temporary or permanent replacement].

**You may say, 'Since i freely pledged and committed myself to the person, it's an instance my power, not a compromising of it.' Then I will rephrase: If you're pledged and committed, can you at the same time say, 'i have power to be exercized any [legal] way i choose, and the other is under my power and at my mercy.'

This is probably not very clear, but maybe it gets a point across.

----

NOTE: This is not an attempt to grade or evaluate any relationship of yours, but merely to be able to describe how and where power lies therein, and how it's exercized. And of course, I'm not saying that a relationship around a shared fetish necessarily shows A having any 'power over' B; i.e., it could be egalitarian and mutual, and that's fine for those who want that.

 

[Netzach]

Hi N,

That's an illuminating account.

[There could be joyous fulfillment]// if I found someone to be a co-conspirator on the project and get into the pain.//

Since you are an expert on Masoch, I pose this question: I can see complicity around pain, but not around someone's exercize of power over the other ('domination' as it's often called).

The dilemma of 'Venus in Furs' is that the slave, besides being complicit, attempts to bind the mistress; it's not too much to say, keep ahold of her and control her. On her side, if she *actually* exercizes her perogative (privilege of power) then it ends the relationship (he quits it, despite the contract; the contract has a few hidden or implicit clauses, as it were).

Very crudely then, do you see a 'power over' situation when the other's complicity (as I think it might) is secured through (or contingent on) a pledge on your part?** Do you or don't you have (and take) the power to drop A [present complicit partner] and get involved (sexually and emotionally) with B [a temporary or permanent replacement].

**You may say, 'Since i freely pledged and committed myself to the person, it's an instance my power, not a compromising of it.' Then I will rephrase: If you're pledged and committed, can you at the same time say, 'i have power to be exercized any [legal] way i choose, and the other is under my power and at my mercy.'

This is probably not very clear, but maybe it gets a point across.

----

NOTE: This is not an attempt to grade or evaluate any relationship of yours, but merely to be able to describe how and where power lies therein, and how it's exercized. And of course, I'm not saying that a relationship around a shared fetish necessarily shows A having any 'power over' B; i.e., it could be egalitarian and mutual, and that's fine for those who want that.

Sure, I think with my slave, the pledge is that I'm going to fuck you up, put you in the hospital or bellvue psyche, not unless there's some uncontrollable kind of accident and you are aware of the risks when you undertake things that might cause such.

Everything beyond that is a leap of faith on his part.

Now, I happen to also be the kind of person who believes that owning another human means one MUST put your wants before their wants, but their needs before your wants.

But that's because that is my core belief system, that's just picking well on his part, as I see it. If I were going to give myself to someone, you'd be damn sure that would be the biggest part of MY personal litmus test.

I don't do "obligation" well. Even the marriage I am going to enter into is not based on that, and I hope it never is. It's an express desire to be with that person and to make a life with that person. This is with an individual I would describe as having a submissive personality and demeanor in general, but also having very specific limits and provisions to that, a strong sense of service and commitment, but a hard time with letting go of control, interesting mix in a partnership and very common among good scene bottoms.

Is this remotely on target?

To clarify, if Iwere Wanda I would not expect my relations with the Russian to cause my personal Severins to take off--that would be a breaking of the relationship and the contract on their part, not the "spell" or the "madness" of male masochism.

But then, I am a contemporary chick, and I've made it clear to all the men in my life that if you can't smile when I'm fucking your rival on the floor, you can get out that door now, thanks. I have such a prerogative in 2004, Masoch's muse did not.

 

[Pure]

N said, "...the pledge is that I'm going to fuck you up, put you in the hospital or bellvue psyche, not unless there's some uncontrollable kind of accident and you are aware of the risks when you undertake things that might cause such."

Is there perhaps a 'not' missing (or misplaced), or sarcasm. Do you mean, "I'm NOT going to fuck you up, put you in hospital ... unless there's an accident...."

---
Thanks for adding the clarification about Wanda and Severin and your 'contemporary' understanding.

 

[Netzach]

N said, "...the pledge is that I'm going to fuck you up, put you in the hospital or bellvue psyche, not unless there's some uncontrollable kind of accident and you are aware of the risks when you undertake things that might cause such."

Is there perhaps a 'not' missing (or misplaced), or sarcasm. Do you mean, "I'm NOT going to fuck you up, put you in hospital ... unless there's an accident...."

---
Thanks for adding the clarification about Wanda and Severin and your 'contemporary' understanding.

LOL, yes add the "not" and thanks for your editorial acumen.

 

[RJMasters]

Now, I happen to also be the kind of person who believes that owning another human means one MUST put your wants before their wants, but their needs before your wants.

That deserves the Dom/me thought of the day. Hell week!

Well said Netz!

 

[Netzach]

That deserves the Dom/me thought of the day. Hell week!

Well said Netz!

I have to credit Jack McGeorge with the verbage, but I've held the belief long before I heard anyone speak about it.

 

[Nackereia]

If I found someone who needed to hear those sweet four little words "you stupid fucking cunt." as much as I needed someone to say them to.

Aww!! That is so adorable!! [[pinchs Netz's cheeks for it and then runs away fastly]]

 

[RJMasters]

Wonders....about sadism generalized throughout.

I find it interesting that violence sells.

Movies, video games, rough contact sports such as boxing, rugby and football.

It strikes me that sadism, or at least voyeur-sadism seems to be accepted to a large degree and suggests that a certain level of fascination with violence.

The news is probably the most practiced and watched sadistic pastimes.

I just find this thought or concept interesting...any comments?

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I find it interesting that violence sells.

The news is probably the most practiced and watched sadistic pastimes.

I just find this thought or concept interesting...any comments?

Negative on the news ... that's a masochistic pursuit.

As for "huked un vylans," think Politically Correct. Folks have to walk around all day acting nice to people whom they'd rip the head off scarcely 150-200 years ago. They need an outlet, so they watch thugs get millions playing sports. i find it interesting that thug watching has become a contact sport now.

 

[RJMasters]

Negative on the news ... that's a masochistic pursuit.

nods in agreement if your talking about the "viewer" which I did, but I guess I meant the ones who prepare and deliver the news...now them are some sadistic bastards...and them some.

Its funny in a way how this splices into a thought I mentioned in my original thread...in that how most people try to avoid pain by building walls, where as the sadist spends their time trying to tear down these walls.

How does it splice in? Because avoiding pain is often avoiding the truth....and since reporters cough-cough claim to be trying to report the truth...I can see how they would be trying to make people face the music as it were.

I think this deserves a warp factor 9 solo!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Wonders....about sadism generalized throughout.

I find it interesting that violence sells.

Movies, video games, rough contact sports such as boxing, rugby and football.

It strikes me that sadism, or at least voyeur-sadism seems to be accepted to a large degree and suggests that a certain level of fascination with violence.

The news is probably the most practiced and watched sadistic pastimes.

I just find this thought or concept interesting...any comments?

Not to mention a person is likely to get a heavier sentence for robbery, fraud etc., than murder, rape, or assault. The message is people are expendable, violence is OK, but don't touch my money or you will burn in hell.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

Not to mention a person is likely to get a heavier sentence for robbery, fraud etc., than murder, rape, or assault. The message is people are expendable, violence is OK, but don't touch my money or you will burn in hell.

Catalina

That reminds me of a funny story...about a guy who goes into a dungeon for a session....the guy explains to the 3 professional Dommes that he cannot experience an orgasm unless he feels extreme pain. He continues to explain that he has been to several dungeons in the area and all without success.

So the 3 Dommes talk this over and agree that they are going to all have to work together on him. Over the course of the next 3 hours they threw at him every form of pain and torchure they could think of and still no orgasm...the Dommes were too tired to continue and the man was disheartened....after he got dressed he went out and stood in the lobby...

It was then one of the Dommes smiled wickedly...and went out into the lobby...the other two Dommes just laid there catching their breath...when they heard this huge scream coming from the lobby and they rush there just in time to see the man finishing a mind bending orgasm...he got up and thanked them and left...

The other two looked at their colleague with new respect and asked her how she did it...to which she replied....I just tripled the bill.

 

[Netzach]

LMAO

I have a lot of people I need to go out and tell that one to...

 

[Mr Wolf]

Wonders....about sadism generalized throughout.



It strikes me that sadism, or at least voyeur-sadism seems to be accepted to a large degree and suggests that a certain level of fascination with violence.



I just find this thought or concept interesting...any comments?

I suppose this is where we could start talking about the nature of man and his being top of the food chain etc... Personally I think it is just nature, although some people seem pre-disposed towards participating in the violence as well as watching it. I also believe it is genetic and includes the well documented fight or flight programming we all know about.

My half brother is not of the same nature in respect to sadism/violence yet also joined the Army and spent years in Martial Arts and this was after I had left both, I also did not pressure him into making either choice.

Of course I could also be talking a load of b@//@#ks... just my view on this interesting subject.

 

[RJMasters]

I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

I suppose this is where we could start talking about the nature of man and his being top of the food chain etc... Personally I think it is just nature, although some people seem pre-disposed towards participating in the violence as well as watching it. I also believe it is genetic and includes the well documented fight or flight programming we all know about.

My half brother is not of the same nature in respect to sadism/violence yet also joined the Army and spent years in Martial Arts and this was after I had left both, I also did not pressure him into making either choice.

Of course I could also be talking a load of b@//@#ks... just my view on this interesting subject.

I tend to agree with your thoughts on this Wolf. I would also say that more than anything else presented as to the "why" a sadist are what they are.

I think something about marmalade jam was mentioned. But that was more of .... I don't know "why" I like it, I just do sort of thing.

Your presentation of natural selection, genetics and the fight or flight programming might be shedding some light.

Often it is presented or a differentaion is proposed between someone who is choosing to be Dominant or submissive over someone who is born a Dominant or a submissive. the argument often degenerates to a "I'm more real than you are sort of thing", but that aside I genuinely feel a person is born with much of the make up of who they are.

What is hard for me...is when reading a comment from someone who says....because I was born that way. For some reason that doesn't seem to shed any light into the "why" when that statement is made on its own, however when a comment like that is made in the context of all that has been presented here in this thread, it makes perfect sense and gives me a chance to wrap my mind around a peice of the puzzle which I have had toruble putting my finger on.

Thank you for presenting this.

 

[Esclava]

Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

<snip>Your presentation of natural selection, genetics and the fight or flight programming might be shedding some light.

Often it is presented or a differentaion is proposed between someone who is choosing to be Dominant or submissive over someone who is born a Dominant or a submissive. the argument often degenerates to a "I'm more real than you are sort of thing", but that aside I genuinely feel a person is born with much of the make up of who they are.

<snip>Thank you for presenting this.

In my limited experience with sadists as a whole, I DO believe the laws of natural selection - in conjunction with genetics - play a distinct role in keeping the balance, so to speak.

Because the characteristics I'm going to speak about are not exclusive to humans, I am going to use the word "beings" to describe any entity that might have such characteristics.

There will always be "Alpha" beings in this world on every genetic level. But you wouldn't know the difference if there weren't "non-alpha" beings in existence. By the same token, there are Dominant and submissive beings - then there are those who are neither Dominant OR submissive. I'm not talking about those who go both ways (Switches); rather those who don't go either way. (Keeping things in balance ... )

I believe the key to submissiveness is the willing desire to serve another - and THAT, I believe, is a birth trait. And if I believe that is true, then I must also believe that dominance is a birth trait as well.

As far as sadism is concerned, IMO - if being wired to dominate another is a birth trait; then being wired to dominate sadistically is just a deeper level of the dominant trait - thus also something exposed at birth. But many fail to realize what it is because it is so very dark and society fails to nurture that darkness claiming that it is evil.

I still don't know if I could serve a sadistic Dominant, but I have enjoyed this discussion. Thank you -

Esclava

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

Often it is presented or a differentaion is proposed between someone who is choosing to be Dominant or submissive over someone who is born a Dominant or a submissive. the argument often degenerates to a "I'm more real than you are sort of thing", but that aside I genuinely feel a person is born with much of the make up of who they are.

Sorry bro, you're getting the tools to be dominant mixed up with the mind that operates those tools. i've seen 6 foot 6 inch mounds of muscle turn into whining puddles when confronted by someone possessing lesser tools, but a better understanding of how to use them. Heart/determination and the mind/will to master your own destiny decide how you color your world. If not, the human race would still be living in trees or caves running away from the stronger species that exist in this world.

The sadist that claims "i'm just wired this way," needs a cattleprod shoved up his ass sideways to find out what wired really means. He's copping excuses for a choice he's too ashamed to admit. If you want a dirty little secret, so be it.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

He's copping excuses for a choice he's too ashamed to admit. If you want a dirty little secret, so be it.

I've been saying this for the longest; with considerably more literary flair, naturally.

 

[le Dragon Noir]

<snip?This kinda raises a question into my mind about the sadist's enjoyment of inflicting pain.


What's your cup of tea?
Pain delivered via unbridled violence or calculated pain? Neither, both?

<snip>

My lizard brain usually wants to open a can of whup ass and go to town on the nearest female backside, as well as other pervalicious body parts. It's not the really the dip shit slapping the wench into next week. That crap just pisses me right the fuck off. (Pisses me off badly enough that I got yanked off of street patrol and put back on highway, because my superiors didn't want me going after the bad guys myself. Something about rampant vigilantism being wrong, even though the system is going to put the bastards right back out on the street.)

My more civilized brain wants no permanent emotional damage, as well as service with a smile. My solution was a maso sub that had a few more limits than I was looking for, with a willingness to let me push them. I don't completely saurian with her, but I've gone further with her than I have with others. I guess that makes me a "calculated pain." kind of guy.

Now then, I do like calculated pain in general. I enjoy the feral look in her eye, that glazed look of pain and pleasure, where she's wondering if I'll really going to do "it", whatever "it" is. The split second of recognition/resignation/anticipation that I get goes right to my balls. To quote Martha: its a GOOD thing.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

i don't wonder why anymore

I've been saying this for the longest; with considerably more literary flair, naturally.

Call it tough love, no bullshit speak Gaston ...

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

Sorry bro, you're getting the tools to be dominant mixed up with the mind that operates those tools. i've seen 6 foot 6 inch mounds of muscle turn into whining puddles when confronted by someone possessing lesser tools, but a better understanding of how to use them. Heart/determination and the mind/will to master your own destiny decide how you color your world. If not, the human race would still be living in trees or caves running away from the stronger species that exist in this world.

The sadist that claims "i'm just wired this way," needs a cattleprod shoved up his ass sideways to find out what wired really means. He's copping excuses for a choice he's too ashamed to admit. If you want a dirty little secret, so be it.

Naw....

See I am not dodging the choice to be sadistic, nor trying to excuse the pleasure I might get from "choosing to do certain things. Truth is, for so many years I have choosen to supress urges. I don't see a conflict in accepting as a possible explaination of the source of these urges comes from being born with it, but that is not to say I haven't cultivated it and learned how to take pleasure in expressing it(color my world).

I am trying to seek why I would choose it. I can accept to some extent that there is a dominant/alpha and it does not have to neccessarily be the strongest....as often the smartest will out beat the strongest.

I still think its is an excellent view as long as you don't throw out the choice factor or the responsibility with the bath water.

Meaning simply it may not an answer in totality of why, but I think there is truth in it just no excuses.

your point though is well taken AA.

 

[Esclava]

Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

Sorry bro, you're getting the tools to be dominant mixed up with the mind that operates those tools. i've seen 6 foot 6 inch mounds of muscle turn into whining puddles when confronted by someone possessing lesser tools, but a better understanding of how to use them. Heart/determination and the mind/will to master your own destiny decide how you color your world. If not, the human race would still be living in trees or caves running away from the stronger species that exist in this world.

The sadist that claims "i'm just wired this way," needs a cattleprod shoved up his ass sideways to find out what wired really means. He's copping excuses for a choice he's too ashamed to admit. If you want a dirty little secret, so be it.

I hear what you're saying, AA; but is the "Heart/determination and the mind/will to master your own destiny ..." only limited to dominants/sadists who make a choice? What about those whose choices are: 1. to follow or 2. to ignore - the urges and tendencies which are dominant and/or sadistic in nature?

Why can't the Dominant/Sadist drive be something that is inherent at birth and exposed as they grow older and have to respond to those thoughts and feelings - that are much darker than those of their friends, but - that provide the same pleasureable experiences their friends have?

Esclava