Delving the Psyche of Sadists

[blue kat]

Re: Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

I hear what you're saying, AA; but is the "Heart/determination and the mind/will to master your own destiny ..." only limited to dominants/sadists who make a choice? What about those whose choices are: 1. to follow or 2. to ignore - the urges and tendencies which are dominant and/or sadistic in nature?

Why can't the Dominant/Sadist drive be something that is inherent at birth and exposed as they grow older and have to respond to those thoughts and feelings - that are much darker than those of their friends, but - that provide the same pleasurable experiences their friends have?

Esclava

I'm in the middle. It's like, I sing pretty decently, possible good enough to be a pro if I had the training. You can be born with the Dominant bent; but without cultivation, the talent is useless. There are a lot of talented amateurs out there, bdsm wise, but I wouldn't go trusting my heart and body to them.

"When you're a dentist, you have a talent for causing pain.."

 

[Phoenix Stone]

peeking back in....

Wow, you always say interesting thought-provoking things, Esclava, even when i don't agree with you.

And, as I'm coming into this late, hope I'm not repeating something that's already been said.

In my limited experience with sadists as a whole, I DO believe the laws of natural selection - in conjunction with genetics - play a distinct role in keeping the balance, so to speak.

My thinking is that genetics would have to limit the number of sadists so the species doesn't destroy itself.

There will always be "Alpha" beings in this world on every genetic level. But you wouldn't know the difference if there weren't "non-alpha" beings in existence. By the same token, there are Dominant and submissive beings - then there are those who are neither Dominant OR submissive. I'm not talking about those who go both ways (Switches); rather those who don't go either way. (Keeping things in balance ... )

[/B]

Agree... and would think that those who are neither would likely be the most common, as balance is what usually works best in nature.

I believe the key to submissiveness is the willing desire to serve another -
[/B]

And There you have said a mouthful. Willingness And desire. Both required. Necessary and sufficient condition for behavior. For either sadist or masochist (and those who are neither, for that matter.)

I believe that desire is inborn, and the willingness to indulge any desire is at least partly choice. Further, my sense is that choice is a sliding scale, which can be reduced, but never completely negated, by environment, circumstance, etc.

And then one chooses to indulge with others who have also chosen to indulge their complementary proclivity.

As far as sadism is concerned, IMO - if being wired to dominate another is a birth trait; then being wired to dominate sadistically is just a deeper level of the dominant trait - thus also something exposed at birth. But many fail to realize what it is because it is so very dark and society fails to nurture that darkness claiming that it is evil.
[/B]

Now here, assuming I'm reading you correctly, I disagree. I see sadism versus dominance as more like emotional versus dispassionate domination. That the non-sadist simply wants to dominate and considers the effect on the other irrelevant.

The sadist, otoh, considers the pain to the other to be more important than domination. I think a sadist would pick hurting the other over winning/controlling the other.

The dominant wouldn't. One could be completely dominant and see any particular form of sadistic behavior as only a tool.

The dominant's goal is different, and more useful to the pack (because the sadist's main goal is to harm, or to play with pain sensation), useful, assuming the dominant has good judgement in his/her leadership. Certainly the two qualities can go together but I just don't see sadism as a deeper level of domination, per se, but as something different entirely.

Esclava, I can also see a different argument to mine... but will try to get to my point -- and interest -- in that deeper, darker level you are talking about by going off on a bit of a riff to tease it out --

Essay: What i did Last Summer: Or Sadists I have known and loved. (Ok, only loved the one in my family but knew way too many -- of the unfun, irresponsible type. Still, I believe the same basics are in place.)

The intent seemed to be to effect permanent change on the object. To make a mark at least, and certainly to get a reaction, to make the other jump. The deeper level I sensed was perhaps to control the other's mind as well as body.
No, it wasn't control because it was the part that was Uncontrolled that the sadist enjoyed. The part that resisted. The ones who went along, who were even brainwashed, were less fun. The deeper the resistance, the horror, the fear, on the part of the object, the more the enjoyment on the sadist's part. Yes, it's a way of Getting to someone more deeply. Of getting in. Of embedding yourself. Hmm. Does the brainwashed still know, somehow? Is there a part of him/her that feels a still deeper horror the more so for being as if through glass?

Sometimes I think the sadist is deeply lonely. So alone that they can only touch another by creating a sort of liquid medium of pain. Other times I think that's bullshit. I've known that dark glee and its like falling forever through endless night


Hmm, interesting topic.

Ps. Esclava, in the past, my recollection is that you didn't like when I went through posts line-by-line. I hope you know I do this in the hope of being more clear, and because it's typically individual points I find compelling.

 

[Esclava]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

I'm in the middle. It's like, I sing pretty decently, possible good enough to be a pro if I had the training. You can be born with the Dominant bent; but without cultivation, the talent is useless. There are a lot of talented amateurs out there, bdsm wise, but I wouldn't go trusting my heart and body to them.

"When you're a dentist, you have a talent for causing pain.."

Couldn't the response to those thoughts and feelings be what drives someone to seek the training/tools to answer what may have been calling them all their life?

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

Re: peeking back in....

<snip>Ps. Esclava, in the past, my recollection is that you didn't like when I went through posts line-by-line. I hope you know I do this in the hope of being more clear, and because it's typically individual points I find compelling.

We had our discussion on that when it happened and it's over. I have no problem with how posts are made, but I will correct when someone has broken my thoughts up in such a way as to change what I said.

Let the discussion continue ...

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

Re: peeking back in....

<snip>The sadist, otoh, considers the pain to the other to be more important than domination. I think a sadist would pick hurting the other over winning/controlling the other.

The dominant wouldn't. One could be completely dominant and see any particular form of sadistic behavior as only a tool.

<snip>

I was fine until this point. If a sadist prefers hurting another over winning/controlling them, does that imply that sadists DO have/make a conscious choice? Is there a difference between Dominant Sadists and Sadistic Dominants? Do they both make choices about their existence or does one, the other or both respond to what may be deep-seated genetic urges? We know there are non-sadistic Dominants - are there non-dominant Sadists as well?

Some have said it's about choice; some have said it's about traits from birth. I just don't happen to believe it's ALL about choice.

To you who ARE sadists: What drove you to your first sadistic experience? Were you responding to something your saw, liked and chose to follow? Or was it responding to something inside you that was aching to be set free?

Esclava

 

[blue kat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

Couldn't the response to those thoughts and feelings be what drives someone to seek the training/tools to answer what may have been calling them all their life?

Esclava

Yes, and that's a good thing! It helps keep the number of emotional and physical casualties down to a minimum. And when said person becomes a responsible Sadist/Dominant its a wonderful thing. However, there are a great many assholes, oops, I mean "true PYLs" that don't bother to find the training they need. I always look at a "true" or "natural" PYL cross eyed until I see them in action. IMHO, responsible sadists (or whatever label they wear.) aren't just born, they're made. You need both aspects, I think. You cannot make someone a sadist; they're born. But just because they're born with the instinct doesn't make them a sadist.

I guess I draw the line at self awareness and responsibility.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Re: Re: peeking back in....

I was fine until this point. If a sadist prefers hurting another over winning/controlling them, does that imply that sadists DO have/make a conscious choice?

No. Gave my view on the whole nature/nurture/choice question in a different part of the post. This part was just about dominance and sadism being part of the same thing or on a continuum or whatever. I see them as essentially separate issues,(maybe more like black hair and brown eyes, which can occur together but don't necessarily.)

Is there a difference between Dominant Sadists and Sadistic Dominants?

To me, yes. Seems to say one is more important to the person.

Do they both make choices about their existence or does one, the other or both respond to what may be deep-seated genetic urges?

As said in other part of post, I think we have deepseated genetic urges that we have some level of choice about to what extent to respond. If I had a deep-seated urge that I could find No way to responsibly satisfy, I would either choose to be celibate, put myself and my urges under some kind of outside control, or of course, kill myself. I believe there is always some small level of control over whether and how we act on our urges but it may be small indeed. The choices can be quite narrow. Sliding scale. How far do you slide? Where is that line? (To me it's at least at the end of the non-consenting's nose.)

We know there are non-sadistic Dominants - are there non-dominant Sadists as well?

Sure, how about your hit-and-run sadist? Your sneaky sadist? Do it but never let anyone know it was you. Is that dominance? Ex. someone who sticks pins in the asses of strangers in crowds. Sadistic, yes? But dominant?

Some have said it's about choice; some have said it's about traits from birth. I just don't happen to believe it's ALL about choice.

To you who ARE sadists: What drove you to your first sadistic experience? Were you responding to something your saw, liked and chose to follow? Or was it responding to something inside you that was aching to be set free?

Esclava

See, I see 'liking what you saw' as a sign that the desire was inborn, or that at least one's body bending in that direction from effects of the environment, as being inborn. Possibly by choosing to do something about it, you've then reinforced and made stronger the desire. Abstinence does not make the heart grow fonder. Not after the initial period anyway. Even food. The desire gets less after about a week. It's getting a taste again that gets you.

 

[Esclava]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

Yes, and that's a good thing! It helps keep the number of emotional and physical casualties down to a minimum. And when said person becomes a responsible Sadist/Dominant its a wonderful thing. However, there are a great many assholes, oops, I mean "true PYLs" that don't bother to find the training they need. I always look at a "true" or "natural" PYL cross eyed until I see them in action. IMHO, responsible sadists (or whatever label they wear.) aren't just born, they're made. You need both aspects, I think. You cannot make someone a sadist; they're born. But just because they're born with the instinct doesn't make them a sadist.

I guess I draw the line at self awareness and responsibility.

Agreed - It's not all about choice and it's not all about genetics. It's all about a combination of the two with serious training to harness the instinct into responsible action.

Esclava

 

[RJMasters]

An interesting thought

After AA had mentioned it was more about will and choice, and that I was getting mixing up my pwoer control with my tools. at first I was eager to disagree...but I never take anything AA has to say lightly...and it has been going over in my thoughts. I think I have back up from this a bit and see something I didn't think about...so I am going to throw this out and see where it goes.

I think I still believe there is at some level a bit of wiring from a born aspect, however I do not think it can be attached to the dominant side of things in such a clear easy way.

Earlier my thinking was along how in nature there are animals which are dominant...

but are there animals which are sadistic? No.

I do not believe animals take pleasure in inflicting pain upon another...kill it and eat it...sure...but thats for food, survival...not for pleasure.

So I really see what AA was trying to tell me but didn't understand at the time...when he said it is more of the will and choice of intellect. Because that is what seperates us from animals. Perhaps there is some animal instincts which we as a sadist human being have trouble dealing with...and so there is possibility that in part there is animalistic urges, but these urges are not sadistic as animal do not have sadistic urges. So it is possible that the human intellect processes this animalistic instincts over into sadism for release. Who knows...

but...I will step up and say that I understand now AA what you meant when I was confusing the tools of being a dominant and the mind which uses those tools.

Sadism is not natural...it is only something a person with intelligence and a will can do.

very interesting...the plot thickens.

Enjoys Esclava's, Blue Kat's and Pheniox's discussion on this.

What are your takes on my new realization about no sadism instincts in animals? If there are none, then to defend the birth position, it would stand to reason that this would be unique only to humans, or you do maintain there is sadistic instincs in animals which would support this position. If you think there is sadistic instincs...please provide some examples...I would like to hear them and ponder this further.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: An interesting thought

but are there animals which are sadistic? No.

I do not believe animals take pleasure in inflicting pain upon another...kill it and eat it...sure...but thats for food, survival...not for pleasure.

Careful with the absolutes. Bottlenose dolphins will harass and rape dolphins of a slightly different species. They will also kill for the sheer joy of it, though they be juveniles usually when they do. Think teenage punks without a clue.

Young male cheetahs (usually brothers) abandoned by their mother when they're old enough to hunt, will corner and corral a female for days in direct conflict of the need to survive.

i'll look for some additional background, but homo sapiens does not have the lock on "ya know, this is kinda fun regardless of the harm it causes."

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: An interesting thought

Careful with the absolutes. Bottlenose dolphins will harass and rape dolphins of a slightly different species. They will also kill for the sheer joy of it, though they be juveniles usually when they do. Think teenage punks without a clue.

Young male cheetahs (usually brothers) abandoned by their mother when they're old enough to hunt, will corner and corral a female for days in direct conflict of the need to survive.

i'll look for some additional background, but homo sapiens does not have the lock on "ya know, this is kinda fun regardless of the harm it causes."

ok interesting examples.

Ty AA.

The jury is still out...gonna keep beating this motha till something cracks.

Although..one thing has come out of this is how I make assocaitions in my thought processes. I have another question but I am gonna make a poll out of it and let this current flavor of the dicussion continue here unhindered.

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: I wonder~why~why~why~why~why...

The sadist that claims "i'm just wired this way," needs a cattleprod shoved up his ass sideways to find out what wired really means. He's copping excuses for a choice he's too ashamed to admit. If you want a dirty little secret, so be it.

Mmmmmmm tasty.

Some if it's born, yes...I don't know where some of the psychosexual "zing" comes from and I guess I could dig it out with 5000 hours of therapy, but why, unless I want to be cured?

I think we overplay how we're born to the hilt.

I could not be any other way because I do not want to be any other way.

 

[Mr Wolf]

Re: Re: peeking back in....

To you who ARE sadists: What drove you to your first sadistic experience? Were you responding to something your saw, liked and chose to follow? Or was it responding to something inside you that was aching to be set free?

Esclava

To answer your question: Curiosity. When I was at Nursery School I pushed a frog down the slide and broke it's leg. No sexual urge, no violent urge but also no emotional attachment to said poor frog. It was there, the slide was there and I was there; shit happens.

As I said to RJ in a PM by the time I was 13 I knew I was a sadist, but not in it's sexual context more in it's emotional. I enjoyed fighting and would go out of my way to start fights just to enjoy crushing my opponent and to see them at my feet. Looking back I can also recognise that I used to like to control what occurred around me, so from these insights I concluded that
1. I enjoyed inflicting pain on people.
2. I liked to dominate/control my surroundings.
3. I liked to have people submit to my will.

Later as I read more I realised what my 'label' was, yet it was only when I meet a masocistic girlfriend in the Army that I understood that in connection with a woman I could also get a real sexual thrill from it. I was then about 18, since that age I have spent time and effort to learn/hone my natural skills into what I am today: A Sadistic Dominant with some and a Dominant Sadist with others, but with both I am still learning and seeking new knowledge/experiences.

Yes, there are also other facets to my character both sadist and dominant but at present that is for me to know and others to wonder about...

 

[Mr Wolf]

Re: An interesting thought

Earlier my thinking was along how in nature there are animals which are dominant...

but are there animals which are sadistic? No.

I do not believe animals take pleasure in inflicting pain upon another...kill it and eat it...sure...but thats for food, survival...not for pleasure.



Sadism is not natural...it is only something a person with intelligence and a will can do.

RJ I know I am para-phrasing your original text but I just wanted add some more insight into these parts of your text. I know AA has also added some information in relation to your question/statement.

With regards animals being sadistic could I throw into the pot the following:
1 Cat known and documented to play with its prey before killing.
2 Killer Whale also known and documented to play with seals before it kills them.
3 Fox well known to kill every chicken in a hen house for example and not for just for food, more of a killing frenzy.

Just a further view on nature.

 

[Guest]

And that above is just taking into account the actually "wild" animals. What I feel may be a bit closer to the bone here is the domestics gone feral...
A pack of feral dogs, once engaged in killing, will often slaughter everything that moves..
Yup that means fluffy down the street...I've seen the results and helped hunt the damn things..
A domestic animal gone feral is MUCH worse than any wild creature..
I have often felt that this applies just as well to humans...

Anyone have an opinion..Or some info..

 

[bridgeburner]

I could not be any other way because I do not want to be any other way.

I just want to sit and gaze at this for a bit. Maybe light a cancle or contemplate a tattoo.

-B

 

[bridgeburner]

And because I'm both restless and impatient I'm going to post without having read most of the thread.

I have sadistic fantasies. I always have. I'm not sure where they come from but ever since I was a child I've imagined the sexual abuse and torture of women. I'm somewhat removed from it, however ---I identify with both the torturer and the victim and at the same time with neither in the roll of voyeur. Just the idea and the image of inspecting and abusing nearly anonymous bodies --- or playing with characters so stereotypical they might as well have no identites. Having the power and the leisure to do whatever I want without the burden of pleasing or arousing anyone but myself. It's not purifying or self-searching or holy or anything it's just a sexual compulsion. It's fun and it's hot.

Ouside of fantasy I often go to extreme lengths not to harm people emotionally --- even strangers. Some of this is my Southern upbringing, some of it comes from my varied religious indoctrination and I think some of it is just my nature. My empathy bone is monstrous huge and often I'm sure I imagine a possible hurt to be much greater than the proposed sufferer would consider it --- classic projection.

At the same time certain kinds of humiliation turn me on --- both my own and that of others. I only enjoy humiliating people that I think deserve it. I can be quite righteous about such things, but in general it makes me sick to my stomach.

Which is all a round about way of saying "I can't define it but I know what I like." ;->

/ramble


-B

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: An interesting thought

2 Killer Whale also known and documented to play with seals before it kills them.

Just a further view on nature.

Was just watching a documentary I had seen a long time ago where it showed the Killer Whales taking the seal pups into the deep and playing with them for up to half an hour at least before killing them, and then continuing to play with them by tossing their dead bodies metres into the air repeatedly before finally eating them.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

when you got it bad

You know when your jonesin' when you look at a playboy layout and the first thing that comes to your mind is how you could change that cute little smile on her face into brow furrowed, mascare running and lips quivering in fear with some good hard smacks on the creamy round ass.

hop little bunny hop!

Its pretty fucking scary to me, that my hands have become more of an erotic zone than my cock.

 

[CutieMouse]

Re: when you got it bad

*****

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: when you got it bad

Its pretty fucking scary to me, that my hands have become more of an erotic zone than my cock.

Why?

Never has been scarier for me.

Your fingertip has a high density of sensory nerves, albeit not as many as say, a clitoris, or the cock shaft below the corona.

Slow down and enjoy the roses stud ... then show your subject what true thorns can do.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: when you got it bad

Why?

Never has been scarier for me.

Your fingertip has a high density of sensory nerves, albeit not as many as say, a clitoris, or the cock shaft below the corona.

Slow down and enjoy the roses stud ... then show your subject what true thorns can do.

Well its an interesting kinda scare...not as being afraid, but more like new territory. For so much of my life, associating pleasure and erotic fantasy with cock/orgasm...kinda like labido and sex drive more associated with a hard on type of feeling...but I am pretty sure...that if I could just get my hands on....

oh nm, you get the picture...I get the feeling I could feel deeply satisfied whether my carrot got dipped or not.

I have always known what it means to take my time and smell the roses...I have just not stopped to notice or appreciate the beauty of the thorns that much...

Each time I go through this, and feel it build in intensity...I learn to rechannel it and reign it in and yet feed it at the same time...it is a mixture of many feelings...and there is a dark pleasure I experience when the one wave pegs out...and there is a lag of the control wave increasing to match the intensity....in those few moments of lag....I find myself grinding my teeth or clenching my hand...

And it occurred to me...that I have never felt this level of arousal when my cock has been the focus. Or maybe its the same, but its such a different type of feeling.

This tends to focus me more, and make everything around me more clear. Its like a cross between hunger and the mental side of an orgasm without the release.

*sits back and takes AA advice and chills out.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: when you got it bad

Uhhhh... twitching a bit there RJ dear?

No the twitching doesn't begin until at least a 1/2 hour after I started working her over...but then again I am not the one doing the twitching then either.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Welcome to the addiction.

Catalina

 

[esclave_PP]

This is a great thread, going to forward to Master -- he should have some interesting thoughts on Sadism