Demonizing sex workers

[AwkwardlySet]

Well you don't need much prior effort to do fast food or retail. Do you have any negative feelings about people doing those?

Nevermind, I guess you don't need an inborn trait like beauty to do those. But really, I don't think you need much of an inborn trait to do prostitution, either.

I seriously doubt that flipping burgers pays as well as fashion modeling and I am sure you will agree that no one goes into that without good looks.
If you read my first posts about this topic, I never said that sex workers earn well, I just said that I believed their motivation to get into it is often based on earning money in a quick way without putting any effort into their education or training. I am going to assume that sex work pays better than flipping burgers, otherwise, it would be a silly choice either way.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

But I hope any person with an ounce of decency would agree that sex workers are as fully human as anyone else.

Emily

Here I must agree with Simon in saying that it would be spectacularly weird and even hypocritical if anyone here believed otherwise. I don't think I've seen more than a few such assertions, thankfully.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Here I must agree with Simon in saying that it would be spectacularly weird and even hypocritical if anyone here believed otherwise. I don't think I've seen more than a few such assertions, thankfully.

I did - in comments on my story - made me feel like vomiting.

Emily

 

[XerXesXu]

Yup. People marry partners in all kinds of professions. Tax inspectors, criminal defence lawyers, clowns. Sex worker is only a bad thing if you *call* it a bad thing. But if there wasn't a demand for sex work in society, there wouldn't be any sex workers either.

I married a sex worker, she married a criminal defence lawyer. We're well-matched, 23 years, 2 kids, 2 grandkids

28th Dec last, 20 or so of her relatives turned up at my home with the oldest surviving member of her clan, a great aunt aged 89. I met her in 1996 when I bar-fined my wife and took her travelling, taking in her home hamlet in the province. She was 18 and had been working in the bar for 3 years and was a feature dancer, she danced nude.

She wanted to visit her mother’s grave. Her mother died aged 27 leaving a sibship of 11, 7 girls and 4 boys and the great aunt took on care of the children. Her father had financed the move from the province to Angeles by borrowing money from a Mamasan, in return 3 of the daughters agreed to work for her to repay the loan. The Mamasan arranged birth certificates showing them to be 18 (so my wife is 3 years younger than shown by her birth certificate).

For the trip home my wife took her cute door-girl’s costume which she wore when soliciting passersby to come into the bar, it not being permissible to be nude in public. She wore this when we took the bus up to her hamlet. Of course, this attracted much attention, but admiration above everything else. She looked very glamorous. Everyone knew she worked in the bar but to them, it was a glamorous and rewarding lifestyle.

I would guess that the average income there was about 50php a day, about 40 pence at that time, and I was paying my wife 1000 php a day. Aunt was very impressed. My wife showed aunt her body-shots in her feature dance costume, which consisted of a few ribbons. The Aunt was surprised that she had no pubic hair. Over the next couple of days, my wife spent a lot of time raising the hem of her skirt to show her hairlessness to the curious. She had been raised much further up the track, actually in the forest, and the shacks were still in use. This was the first time I realized how poor, poor people could be.

On 28th Dec Great Aunt reminded us all about this visit and asked if I was still paying my wife 1,000php a day. I said I couldn’t afford to, so I had to marry her. She then asked if she still had no pubic hair. This caused a few shrieks because I don’t think many of the teenage girls have these days.

All our family was present, children and grandchildren and I think everyone understood what was being said because simultaneous translations were being given into Tagalog and English.

It was treated as a matter-of-fact family history, and nothing shameful or that should be concealed.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Assume the real word -- the world in which you live today.

Why if nothing very bad happens to her? She quits after some years.

Then she finds a man to marry. That man finds out about her whoring days, and he changes his mind about the whole affair. Wedding is off!

Yes, that could happen if she doesn't talk to him about her past before they get to the point of an engagement. This is not the only option for how she can handle the situation.

Or maybe she becomes a known public figure. Then the public finds out. Career over!

Or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Patten
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilona_Staller
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...irst-transgender-mp-remembered-as-trailblazer

 

[Bramblethorn]

I seriously doubt that flipping burgers pays as well as fashion modeling and I am sure you will agree that no one goes into that without good looks.
If you read my first posts about this topic, I never said that sex workers earn well, I just said that I believed their motivation to get into it is often based on earning money in a quick way without putting any effort into their education or training.

I wonder how many sex workers you spoke to when forming this belief. There are many highly-educated, hard-working people who aren't working in the profession they trained for, for all sorts of reasons. There are also many hard-working, poorly-educated people who would absolutely love to be "highly-educated" but can't afford to live on air for three years while they earn a degree or whatever.

(Quite a few sex workers are doing it at the same time as furthering their education or training.)

I am going to assume that sex work pays better than flipping burgers, otherwise, it would be a silly choice either way.

Money can be a factor, but it's not the only reason somebody might choose sex work over flipping burgers.

I know a highly educated woman who completed her degree as top of the class, then developed health issues that wouldn't allow her to work in the career she's trained for. She finds it hard to stand for more than a few minutes at a time; being on her feet for an eight-hour McDonalds shift would leave her bedridden the next day, if she didn't collapse mid-shift. I know another who gets crippling migraines that knock her out at short notice, and others who have immune system problems that make it dangerous for them to spend hours in close quarters with a crowd of customers and fellow workers, and others who get overwhelmed by loud crowded environments. There are very few jobs in food service or retail which would accommodate those restrictions. Carer restrictions are another common factor.

Full-service sex work can often be more compatible with those requirements than a more "respectable" occupation. Obviously there is physical activity involved, but it's of a different type, and usually more like a few minutes to an hour than eight hours on one's feet. There are fewer people to see and, for self-employed SWs, more scope to pick and choose when, where, and how they work, and with whom.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The question I asked (as opposed to the question you had in mind) was: Would you encourage your daughter to take up prostitution? That's the question, not what you said it was.

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a doctor?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a lawyer?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become an engineer?"

"Yes, sweetie."

"Daddy, daddy, should I become a whore?"

>> fill in your answer.

There is a line in one of Dostoyevsky's novels that says: "Almost every mother wants their son to become a general. No mother wants their son to become a poet." I'm sure you agree that being a poet is a worthy calling.

What I wanted to say is that while you are correct about what you are saying, I believe you are missing the point as well. I don't think that almost any parent would want their daughter to become a sex worker regardless of how they feel about the profession. The simple answer is that every parent wants their children to be happy and accepted. Just as being a poet in 19th century Russia was unlikely to lead to happiness and good standing in society, being a sex worker in the 21st century is unlikely to lead there as well. The society is still far from accepting sex workers into their community, which is weird considering that they do accept politicians

 

[VerbalAbuse]

There is a line in one of Dostoyevsky's novels that says: "Almost every mother wants their son to become a general. No mother wants their son to become a poet." I'm sure you agree that being a poet is a worthy calling.

What I wanted to say is that while you are correct about what you are saying, I believe you are missing the point as well. I don't think that almost any parent would want their daughter to become a sex worker regardless of how they feel about the profession. The simple answer is that every parent wants their children to be happy and accepted. Just as being a poet in 19th century Russia was unlikely to lead to happiness and good standing in society, being a sex worker in the 21st century is unlikely to lead there as well. The society is still far from accepting sex workers into their community, which is weird considering that they do accept politicians

That's exactly what I am saying. Parents want what's best for their children.

One ought to extrapolate from there. You don't want your daughter to be a whore. Even if that's fine with you, you know very well that 90%, or 99% of the people will think differently. You'll have that in mind.

Further, you'll also advise your children to stay away -- not just from this "profession", but from its practitioners.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Yes, that could happen if she doesn't talk to him about her past before they get to the point of an engagement. This is not the only option for how she can handle the situation.



Or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiona_Patten
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilona_Staller
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...irst-transgender-mp-remembered-as-trailblazer

I knew about Ilona. The thing is, she's one of the exceptions here.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I took no moralizing stance towards sex work. I honestly have no idea what some people here are reacting to. I questioned one specific facet of sex work, it being heavily looks-based, that was all.


Of course, sex work or modeling is still work that takes effort. My point wasn't about that. My point was that it requires almost no effort prior to the actual employment. To become a lawyer, programmer, doctor, musician, or whatever, besides the intelligence or talent, you need to invest shitloads of years, work, and even money to finally get to the point when you can actually start earning. Modeling and sex work aren't like that. If you are attractive enough you can go for a casting in a modeling agency right away (assuming your age fits as well) In this case, I actually know what I'm talking about as I've witnessed my students doing exactly that.
You can start sex work right away as well, you just need to seek employment at the right establishment.

A couple of weeks ago I helped one of my clients apply for a job at Ford. He's a high school dropout on parole.

He got the job. $28 an hour.

 

[Seadog777]

It's not a secret that I stripped for a bit, to supplement my income.
I can not and will not cast stones at those who end up in this line of work.
Most of the time, it's outta dire financial straits.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This is the crux of the matter. The reason that sex is treated differently from other activities is “morality.”

When you strip away millennia of what people have decided is good for us (and told us that deities will be angry if we stray from the path), then there is no reason why sex should be any different to other things that people do.

Emily

When a multitude of cultures develop in similar patterns perhaps we should consider looking deeper than simply dismissing it as "what other people decided was good for us."
It's kind of a Chesterton's fence problem.

 

[SimonDoom]

When a multitude of cultures develop in similar patterns perhaps we should consider looking deeper than simply dismissing it as "what other people decided was good for us."
It's kind of a Chesterton's fence problem.

I don't think that's what's going on. I think people ARE trying to look deeper. The flip side of Chesterton's fence problem is that we can dismiss all arguments to change things on the ground that our forebears thought all these things through and we shouldn't dare to second guess them. By that logic we should continue to punish homosexuality and masturbation, and we should continue to think of women as property. I don't think most people here believe that.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I don't think that's what's going on. I think people ARE trying to look deeper. The flip side of Chesterton's fence problem is that we can dismiss all arguments to change things on the ground that our forebears thought all these things through and we shouldn't dare to second guess them. By that logic we should continue to punish homosexuality and masturbation, and we should continue to think of women as property. I don't think most people here believe that.

This (again)

Emily

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't think that's what's going on. I think people ARE trying to look deeper. The flip side of Chesterton's fence problem is that we can dismiss all arguments to change things on the ground that our forebears thought all these things through and we shouldn't dare to second guess them. By that logic we should continue to punish homosexuality and masturbation, and we should continue to think of women as property. I don't think most people here believe that.

One particularly unfortunate aspect of Chesterton's fence argument is that the more nonsensical and harmful the "fence" in question is, the harder it may be to understand its reasons for existence and therefore the harder to satisfy his prerequisites for changing it.

Not to say that we shouldn't pause and ask "was there a reason for this rule?" before overturning something major, but we shouldn't always expect the question to be answerable. And even if an answer exists, it may not be good or relevant to the present day.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

A couple of weeks ago I helped one of my clients apply for a job at Ford. He's a high school dropout on parole.

He got the job. $28 an hour.

You keep coming up with singular cases. I am not sure how helpful those are but in this case, I am not even sure what to make of it? I am missing a point of reference in this sense. Is $28 an hour really low? I assume that you wanted to make a point about how low-paying regular "decent" jobs are?

 

[M_K_Babalon]

That's exactly what I am saying. Parents want what's best for their children.

One ought to extrapolate from there. You don't want your daughter to be a whore. Even if that's fine with you, you know very well that 90%, or 99% of the people will think differently. You'll have that in mind.

Further, you'll also advise your children to stay away -- not just from this "profession", but from its practitioners.

If I had a daughter, I'd be damned. Take your ass to a warehouse job.

 

[MelissaBaby]

You keep coming up with singular cases. I am not sure how helpful those are but in this case, I am not even sure what to make of it? I am missing a point of reference in this sense. Is $28 an hour really low? I assume that you wanted to make a point about how low-paying regular "decent" jobs are?

You think $28 an hour is a low paying job?? It's almost three times the minimum wage. More than twice the poverty threshold, and it's his starting wage. If he sticks with the job for a few years, he will be making more than 60k a year.

I thought my point was clear. This man has no educational qualifications or enhanced talents, and he got hired for a job for which he'll get paid far more than all but the elite of sex workers.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You think $28 an hour is a low paying job?? It's almost three times the minimum wage. More than twice the poverty threshold, and it's his starting wage. If he sticks with the job for a few years, he will be making more than 60k a year.

I thought my point was clear. This man has no educational qualifications or enhanced talents, and he got hired for a job for which he'll get paid far more than all but the elite of sex workers.

As I said, I have no point of reference. I don't live in the US or anywhere like the US. I assumed you wanted to make a completely different point and that's why I asked if that was a low-income job even if it didn't seem logical. I am honestly unsure which points are being made in this whole thread. Oh well...

 

[MelissaBaby]

As I said, I have no point of reference. I don't live in the US or anywhere like the US. I assumed you wanted to make a completely different point and that's why I asked if that was a low-income job even if it didn't seem logical. I am honestly unsure which points are being made in this whole thread. Oh well...

Fair enough. My point was that you seemed to be making an arbitrary distinction between sex work and other categories of paid labor in regard to education and skills. I was attempting to show it’s shortcomings by giving an example of how someone who had no such assets received a very good, high paying job that carries none of the stigma applied to sex work.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't think that's what's going on. I think people ARE trying to look deeper. The flip side of Chesterton's fence problem is that we can dismiss all arguments to change things on the ground that our forebears thought all these things through and we shouldn't dare to second guess them. By that logic we should continue to punish homosexuality and masturbation, and we should continue to think of women as property. I don't think most people here believe that.

That's just a slippery slope argument. People AREN'T trying to look deeper in this conversation they have simply decided that it's bad.
You clearly misunderstand the point of Chesterton's fence.
It doesn't rest on an assumption that our forebears were right, it means we should make a concerted effort to understand things BEFORE we take action. Everyone here who has addressed the issue has dismissed it as "other people's morality", and haven't gone any further. Why did that morality develop in societies almost, if not quite universally?

The commodification of sex is harmful to a society, and most specifically harmful to women in a society. The stigma attached to prostitution is a means to reduce supply and thus it's harmful effects on society.

 

[SimonDoom]

The commodification of sex is harmful to a society, and most specifically harmful to women in a society.

That's where I disagree with you. What's harmful to women is for society to criminalize something they might want to commodify. People should be free to commodify whatever they want to, so long as they act freely and honestly. There's no good reason to treat sex as different from other things, when it comes to commodification. The taboo against commodification is an artifact of a society dominated by men who want to control women's control over their sexuality.

 

[CyranoJ]

When a multitude of cultures develop in similar patterns perhaps we should consider looking deeper than simply dismissing it as "what other people decided was good for us."

And indeed, a great deal of research on the topic of sex work has taken place in the past half century. It just happens that what the research shows tends to be inconvenient for people who want to go on demonizing sex workers.

A multitude of cultures developed slavery and caste systems. We have plenty of data by this point to suggest that neither of these are actually good ideas, regardless of how many cultures developed them or what their proximate excuses were. The question then becomes how to defeat such heavily-embedded problems.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That's where I disagree with you. What's harmful to women is for society to criminalize something they might want to commodify. People should be free to commodify whatever they want to, so long as they act freely and honestly. There's no good reason to treat sex as different from other things, when it comes to commodification. The taboo against commodification is an artifact of a society dominated by men who want to control women's control over their sexuality.

Agree yet again. Sex - in any consensual form - is not harmful. It’s wonderful. We have been told the opposite by people who want to control what it is to be a woman. Sex - even paid sex - is not harmful to society. Why would it be?

What is harmful is the stigma that drives sex work to the margins of society where women can be preyed on and controlled and victimized by criminals.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

And indeed, a great deal of research on the topic of sex work has taken place in the past half century. It just happens that what the research shows tends to be inconvenient for people who want to go on demonizing sex workers.

A multitude of cultures developed slavery and caste systems. We have plenty of data by this point to suggest that neither of these are actually good ideas, regardless of how many cultures developed them or what their proximate excuses were. The question then becomes how to defeat such heavily-embedded problems.

See - we can agree on stuff

The past is an awful guide to the present.

Emily