Dirt cookies

[Stella_Omega]

Then the people of pine ridge should do something about it! They should write letters and send emails by the thousands. They should contact the news, they should get creative. Instead..i bet you ...they just sit there with a hopeless attitude and die. These people are already dead. They don't have to live that way.

You've just found your crusade. Get your ass to Pine Ridge, boy, fight the good fight! You can make a difference! You can show them the error of their defeatist ways!
Go! Go! Go!

Or, spout off on an internet forum.

 

[sethp]

You've just found your crusade. Get your ass to Pine Ridge, boy, fight the good fight! You can make a difference! You can show them the error of their defeatist ways!
Go! Go! Go!

Or, spout off on an internet forum.

lol you got it. but I have other crusades to fight. like global warming and evil corporations like exxon!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I just read your post where you talk about being in a halfway house and then getting yourself out of it.

two things;

One is that you, as an individual got out-- but you left a lot of men behind you, that did not get out. Conceivably, that first menial job you got might have gone to some other dude. Those jobs are limited, and there are far more work-hungry folk than there are jobs. You got out by standing, however gently, on the shoulders of someone who didn't get out.

the second;

If you were born in Haiti, (or in Pine Ridge) there is no halfway house. There is no "out" to get to. No matter what you wish to think, reality wins.

seriously? If you want to fight Exxon do so. but you really should keep your mouth shut regarding anything else. there's an enormous difference between being positive and enthusiastic and encouraging, and being as ugly and prejudicial as the corporations you claim to be fighting.

And you would not believe how many expletives I've had to remove from this post-- you read like the most ignorant, self-satisfied little fucktard I've encountered in weeks. It doesn't matter where you've travelled, you seem to have brought your ignorance with you, and brought it home intact.

 

[cloudy]

You've just found your crusade. Get your ass to Pine Ridge, boy, fight the good fight! You can make a difference! You can show them the error of their defeatist ways!
Go! Go! Go!

Or, spout off on an internet forum.

I'd give him about....oh, an hour, and then he'll "disappear."

 

[sethp]

I just read your post where you talk about being in a halfway house and then getting yourself out of it.

two things;

One is that you, as an individual got out-- but you left a lot of men behind you, that did not get out. Conceivably, that first menial job you got might have gone to some other dude. Those jobs are limited, and there are far more work-hungry folk than there are jobs. You got out by standing, however gently, on the shoulders of someone who didn't get out.

the second;

If you were born in Haiti, (or in Pine Ridge) there is no halfway house. There is no "out" to get to. No matter what you wish to think, reality wins.

seriously? If you want to fight Exxon do so. but you really should keep your mouth shut regarding anything else. there's an enormous difference between being positive and enthusiastic and encouraging, and being as ugly and prejudicial as the corporations you claim to be fighting.

And you would not believe how many expletives I've had to remove from this post-- you read like the most ignorant, self-satisfied little fucktard I've encountered in weeks. It doesn't matter where you've travelled, you seem to have brought your ignorance with you, and brought it home intact.

ok again thanks for the personal insults..which run rampant when you guys disagree with me. why not just argue the points? hmmmm

I do have a couple of problems with Stella's post...

1. If you were born in Haiti, (or in Pine Ridge) there is no halfway house. There is no "out" to get to. No matter what you wish to think, reality wins---are you really saying that they should give up and that there is no way that they can better their lives? that is not true. it has been proven time and time again thru history that individuals can rise up and make huge changes..right? think nelson mandela? think slaves in the american south? think ghandi?

and by the way ..just cause I use someones name to prove a point does not mean i'm comparing my self to them. thank you..


2. You got out by standing, however gently, on the shoulders of someone who didn't get out. by saying this you are implying that I steped on someone to get out that I took an opportunity away from someone else by taking it for myself. this is not true there are plenty of opportunities for everyone. when one door closes another opens.

If you really take a look at the resources in the world,, money, food, clothing. there is enough for every single person in the world. when I take a resource I don't take it away from someone else.

3. you seem to have brought your ignorance with you,--It's my experiences from being in third world countries and studying history and from not just my own experience but those of people I know.

 

[sethp]

I'd give him about....oh, an hour, and then he'll "disappear."

Cloudy, no matter how much you want to live in a fantasy world. The truth will never disappear. There is always a way to better your lives. don't give up.

 

[cloudy]

Cloudy, no matter how much you want to live in a fantasy world. The truth will never disappear. There is always a way to better your lives. don't give up.

One last thing before you go on ignore: I guaran-damn-tee you that my life is at least ten times better than yours will ever be, you ignorant ass.

 

[Stella_Omega]

ok again thanks for the personal insults..which run rampant when you guys disagree with me. why not just argue the points? hmmmm

Why? because YOU are one of the points. The things you want to talk about are not the things we've brought up-- which focus on your lack of... something.

And by the way, I did NOT insult you, I said you make me want to insult you. My emotional reaction to your emotional posts is quite legitimate.

I do have a couple of problems with Stella's post...

1. If you were born in Haiti, (or in Pine Ridge) there is no halfway house. There is no "out" to get to. No matter what you wish to think, reality wins---are you really saying that they should give up and that there is no way that they can better their lives? that is not true. it has been proven time and time again thru history that individuals can rise up and make huge changes..right? think nelson mandela? think slaves in the american south? think ghandi?

and by the way ..just cause I use someones name to prove a point does not mean i'm comparing my self to them. thank you..

Than don't compare yourself with them. And the fact that you have so very few of these stellar role models to point to should tell you something, given that there are millions of people who are not so stellar.

I am saying that, no matter how much they are not giving up, there are people who are equally not giving up on their intent to keep the downtrodden in place. And the reason and means are in the hands of those people, not the Haitians nor the Pine Ridge inhabitants. And they are damn good at it.

2. You got out by standing, however gently, on the shoulders of someone who didn't get out. by saying this you are implying that I steped on someone to get out that I took an opportunity away from someone else by taking it for myself. this is not true there are plenty of opportunities for everyone. when one door closes another opens.

If you really take a look at the resources in the world,, money, food, clothing. there is enough for every single person in the world. when I take a resource I don't take it away from someone else.

Bullshit. In a single word. Just-- wake the fuck up.

3. you seem to have brought your ignorance with you,--It's my experiences from being in third world countries and studying history and from not just my own experience but those of people I know.

*shrug* like I said, all of your studies seem to have given you a more educated ignorance.

Cloudy, no matter how much you want to live in a fantasy world. The truth will never disappear. There is always a way to better your lives. don't give up.

No, you ignorant fool, YOU would disappear. Troublemakers get shot and dumped.

 

[sethp]

One last thing before you go on ignore: I guaran-damn-tee you that my life is at least ten times better than yours will ever be, you ignorant ass.

gee thanks for the millionth insult where I have not insulted you once! lol

I hope that your life is ten times better than mine will ever be. that would make me happy. That's what I hope for everyone. and if you can do it so can anyone else! You are a shining example, a role model (except for the insults) for thos less blessed to follow. Keep it up!

 

[sethp]

Why? because YOU are one of the points. The things you want to talk about are not the things we've brought up-- which focus on your lack of... something.

And by the way, I did NOT insult you, I said you make me want to insult you. My emotional reaction to your emotional posts is quite legitimate.
Than don't compare yourself with them. And the fact that you have so very few of these stellar role models to point to should tell you something, given that there are millions of people who are not so stellar.

I am saying that, no matter how much they are not giving up, there are people who are equally not giving up on their intent to keep the downtrodden in place. And the reason and means are in the hands of those people, not the Haitians nor the Pine Ridge inhabitants. And they are damn good at it.


Bullshit. In a single word. Just-- wake the fuck up.
*shrug* like I said, all of your studies seem to have given you a more educated ignorance.

No, you ignorant fool, YOU would disappear. Troublemakers get shot and dumped.

Gee where to start. first why are so angry at me..when my main point is. that anyone can make a better world for themselves? do you not agree with that simple statement?

 

[Stella_Omega]

gee thanks for the millionth insult where I have not insulted you once! lol

I hope that your life is ten times better than mine will ever be. that would make me happy. That's what I hope for everyone. and if you can do it so can anyone else! You are a shining example, a role model (except for the insults) for thos less blessed to follow. Keep it up!

You really don't think you've been insulting, do you!

And even though several people have TOLD you point blank that you've been incredibly insulting, you aren't hearing what we say.

Bless you, my child. Perhaps you'll grow up someday.

Gee where to start. first why are so angry at me..when my main point is. that anyone can make a better world for themselves? do you not agree with that simple statement?

No, sweetie, I do not agree with that simple statement.

Simple Statements carry with them a host of assumptions that must be true for the sake of the simple statement. And reality is not simple.

 

[sethp]

You really don't think you've been insulting, do you!

And even though several people have TOLD you point blank that you've been incredibly insulting, you aren't hearing what we say.

Bless you, my child. Perhaps you'll grow up someday.

Stella please tell me in a sentence the most insulting thing i've said then. please. I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella please tell me in a sentence the most insulting thing i've said then. please. I'm just not seeing it.

YOur very first post;

Actually it's what's wrong with them.

they have a tangle of red tape at the docs ..designed to make things more modern but that can leave tons of food rotting in thier cargo bins before anyone even opens it. We send them tons of free food but the people dont' get it.

If you remember some odd years ago we sent military there to sort out the relief effort ..we were shot at and then left cause this was right after somalia and black hawk down times so we said fine if you don't want help and want to shoot at us we won't force you..

whats wrong with the haitian people?

That is very insulting. The insult lies in your basic assumptions, which you elucidate here;

i know you think i'm young and dumb but my IQ isn't for you to decide. I truthfully believe and this is the american dream that you can overcome anything if you so desire. I think americans in particular are very "can do" oriented and I would not eat dirt for more than a few days before I figured out how to rally some people steal some food steal a boat and escape haiti etc.

The problem with haiti and so many other third world countries. And please research this if you don't believe me and think that this is only an opinion is that....there is an overwhelming feeling of despair and hopelessness. they don't think that there is anything that they can do about it ..so they don't. I and many americans(and to be fair many people of all countries and cultures) would not give up and in essence commit a sort of living suicide. I would never give up like these people ...and I doubt that you would either.

that's what differentiates people like those in haiti and other third world countries and us. I know i'm lucky but luck aside. I know that I would never give up. I would be like ghandi or jesus or MLK or the thousands of leaders who have made a differnce in third world countries.

these people have given up. they have reaped what they have sown.

And you just keep on going, dude! Look, you mean well, I know. I'm positive. And you might have a point, somewhere in there, and if you were able to isolate it and find the right words to use, you'd get agreement. But you will have to learn how to meal your mouth, so to speak,-- keep your opinions to yourself, or translate them into language that won't alienate your listeners. You sound incredibly arrogant and patronising-- and ignorant.

 

[damppanties]

Cloudy, no matter how much you want to live in a fantasy world. The truth will never disappear. There is always a way to better your lives. don't give up.

Ok, so you have a new house and whatever you listed in that thread I can't bother to go back to (I'm lazy), but why don't you have billions of dollars like Bill Gates? Why aren't you the President? (Why aren't you able to debate people without pissing them off?) You have it in you, you know. If you just strive a little harder, you too can have billions and have the power to blow up entire countries. Don't give up, seth. You can be whatever you decide to be. You just have to strive harder. I'm on your side. Go!

 

[sethp]

perhaps my wording was 'inflamitory" and it was meant to bring debate and conversation and it has done that.

I believe the sentence I was going off of was..."what's wrong with us?'

my line after that was..."no what's wrong with them?"

that core assertion still stands I think.. "we' may have been a cause of the problem to begin with..with the cia and the corporations etc but that is in the past.

we and many nations and organizations are sending them food and medical aid and supplies..almost all of it for "free". the govt. of haiti is so corrupt and inept that tons of food rots on the docs. that is the reason people are eating dirt. not that we haven't sent enough food for them to eat. we have. they just don't give it to the people there to eat.

I still think that the people of haiti should/and could do something about it. like over run the government and take over the docs and let the un or some other country they trusted come in and help more with relief.

that's all it would take.

I no that is simplistic but many peoples throughout history have overthrown dictators.. you can google that info up or go to the library. it's not my job to be the researcher here but that is truth.

the govt of haiti is not so powerful and tecnologically advanced militarily that they could stop it.

they couldn't.

 

[sethp]

Ok, so you have a new house and whatever you listed in that thread I can't bother to go back to (I'm lazy), but why don't you have billions of dollars like Bill Gates? Why aren't you the President? (Why aren't you able to debate people without pissing them off?) You have it in you, you know. If you just strive a little harder, you too can have billions and have the power to blow up entire countries. Don't give up, seth. You can be whatever you decide to be. You just have to strive harder. I'm on your side. Go!

but I don't need that to be happy. not everyone needs to be a billionare. i'm pretty happy with my dog and my house and my truck..and isn't that what eveyone in the world wants? shelter, food and family and a decent life. I fought to get here but ...I don't need anything else.

 

[sethp]

and if you really read my post..it's not that insulting. only if you really think that people can't help themselves. people can always help themselves. always.

 

[Stella_Omega]

yes, I do think that many poor people can't help themselves. I can see it, it's empirical evidence.

People cannot always help themselves. It's a lovely platitude, and false.

I know for a fact that many rich people are very busy keeping the mechanisms of help away from many poor people.

I really read your post-- well enough to find the point that got missed. If you really read your post, you might see why it derailed the conversation.

Look, your optimism is adorable, like a labrador puppy. But-- stop knocking the lamp off the table, now.

 

[sethp]

yes, I do think that many poor people can't help themselves. I can see it, it's empirical evidence.

People cannot always help themselves. It's a lovely platitude, and false.

I know for a fact that many rich people are very busy keeping the mechanisms of help away from many poor people.

Look, your optimism is adorable, like a labrador puppy. But-- stop knocking the lamp off the table, now.

you are saying that poor people can't help themselves. and that my platitude is false.

Stella if everyone everywhere felt that..then no one would ever carve out a better life for themselves. the youth of the inner cities would live an die there..not one would escape. we would still have slaves in georgia and florida....blacks in south africa would still not be able to vote...britan would still rule india and many other countries.

I realize that many are keeping poor people and poor countries down...but I also realize that some of these countries can grow and thrive and that many of those people can get a better life.

is it false optimism..you would say that ..but in your world there are no cinderellas and very few lives have happy endings. I'm here to tell you that your wrong. plain wrong.

there is one simple truth that is the same in every culture, country and time period.

"there is always hope."

 

[Stella_Omega]

you are saying that poor people can't help themselves. and that my platitude is false.


Stella if everyone everywhere felt that..then no one would ever carve out a better life for themselves. the youth of the inner cities would live an die there..not one would escape. we would still have slaves in georgia and florida....blacks in south africa would still not be able to vote...britan would still rule india and many other countries.

I realize that many are keeping poor people and poor countries down...but I also realize that some of these countries can grow and thrive and that many of those people can get a better life.

is it false optimism..you would say that ..but in your world there are no cinderellas and very few lives have happy endings. I'm here to tell you that your wrong. plain wrong.

there is one simple truth that is the same in every culture, country and time period.

"there is always hope."

Uh, no. I said that MANY poor people can't help themselves. Some can, certainly, and when they can they do. why do you think the Haitian military is so ruthless? Because THEY WERE POOR AND NOW THEY ARE NOT. Now they have guns.

In your world, everyone is a cinderella, and if they aren't it's their own damn fault. Cinderellas are very, very rare. That's why there's a term for it-- cinderella. A fairy tale, you will notice. And that cinderella had a helping hand, who was concentrated on her alone, to the detriment of everyone else-- her stepsisters, for instance.

The youth of the inner cites DO live and die there, statistically speaking. Yes, a few get out-- but they are NOT the norm. There was one Ghandi, in a nation of many billions of people. In our own nation, there's been ONE Martin Luther King, out of millions of black men-- Obama might make his mark, but the establishment is mobilising to prevent it.

Yes, there is always hope. Otherwise, there would be always suicide. That's why the Haitians are willing to eat dirt cookies.

 

[sethp]

Uh, no. I said that MANY poor people can't help themselves. Some can, certainly, and when they can they do. why do you think the Haitian military is so ruthless? Because THEY WERE POOR AND NOW THEY ARE NOT.

In your world, everyone is a cinderella, and if they aren't it's their own damn fault. Cinderellas are very, very rare. That's why there's a term for it-- cinderella. A fairy tale, you will notice. And that cinderella had a helping hand, who was concentrated on her alone, to the detriment of everyone else-- her stepsisters, for instance.

The youth of the inner cites DO live and die there, statistically speaking. Yes, a few get out-- but they are NOT the norm. There was one Ghandi, in a nation of many billions of people. In our own nation, there's been ONE Martin Luther King, out of millions of black men-- Obama might make his mark, but the establishment is mobilising to prevent it.

Yes, there is always hope. Otherwise, there would be always suicide. That's why the Haitians are willing to eat dirt cookies.

you paint too bleak of an outlook on life. I know you will say you are a realist but without optimism there is no hope and without hope of a better life then people give up. Yes there was one MLK but there were thousands of people working with, for, before and after him. He didn't do it alone. How many people died in India protesting with ghandi? quite a few. There are many cinderallas. not just a few. Anyone who tries hard enough either breaks thru the barriers themselves or opens the door to the next person who tries.

the "insulting" question remains the same. What is wrong with the haitan people that they would stand to let their children eat dir? what is wrong with the parents at pine ridge that they would let thier children live in poverty like that? The "can" do something about it ..they just choose not to. Inner city kids and their parents can choose to escape to a better life. they just choose not to. all those guys in the halfway house can have whta I have..they just chose not to.

You create your own reality ina sense. no ..not like magic. but you can create a better life if you want to, no matter who tries to hold you down.

 

[MagicaPractica]

you are saying that poor people can't help themselves. and that my platitude is false.

"there is always hope."

Sethp,

While I agree that there is always hope, not everyone can see that from where they are. There are systems that seem designed to keep people in cycles of of lack, deprivation and depression. When someone is in such a system, it takes a very special person to rise out of it, to lead others out of it, to inspire that hope. You might try reading some Jonathon Kozol. Rachel and her Children is a very good book. There is another I would recommend but I can't recall it at the moment.

ETA: Savage Inequalities is the other one I was thinking of, those he's written many.

 

[sethp]

Sethp,

While I agree that there is always hope, not everyone can see that from where they are. There are systems that seem designed to keep people in cycles of of lack, deprivation and depression. When someone is in such a system, it takes a very special person to rise out of it, to lead others out of it. You might try reading some Jonathon Kozol. Rachel and her Children is a very good book. There is another I would recommend but I can't recall it at the moment.

I know it seems that way...you know... that people just can't get out. but you have to believe. Sometimes you have to beleive in someone when they can't believe in themselves. What if someone from the inner city... say a 19yo who just got out of high school and she can't find work but is going to the library every night and studying on her own and she likes to write and she's kinky like us..so she finds lit and trolls the threads like we do...and then she reads this thread and overwhelmingly..the message is. " you can't escape." "there are no cinderallas" "the man is keeping you down and that's the way it always will be."

I have to be the torch bearer...I have to be the voice of hope in a land of desolation because I know she can get an education and a job and a career and get a $500k house and move out of the city..

I know these people in haiti could get a better life if they would only try to.

 

[Stella_Omega]

you paint too bleak of an outlook on life. I know you will say you are a realist but without optimism there is no hope and without hope of a better life then people give up. Yes there was one MLK but there were thousands of people working with, for, before and after him. He didn't do it alone. How many people died in India protesting with ghandi? quite a few. There are many cinderallas. not just a few. Anyone who tries hard enough either breaks thru the barriers themselves or opens the door to the next person who tries.

the "insulting" question remains the same. What is wrong with the haitan people that they would stand to let their children eat dir? what is wrong with the parents at pine ridge that they would let thier children live in poverty like that? The "can" do something about it ..they just choose not to. Inner city kids and their parents can choose to escape to a better life. they just choose not to. all those guys in the halfway house can have whta I have..they just chose not to.

You create your own reality ina sense. no ..not like magic. but you can create a better life if you want to, no matter who tries to hold you down.

Yeah, well with your word choices, you're creating a reality where people are going to put you on ignore. You are hectoring, blundering, preaching, and patronising-- ignorant of realities that many of us face, ignoring the things people are telling you-- dude, really.

When someone tells you you been insulting, you can't say "no I haven't." You'll never convince them. You can say, "Damn, I'm sorry, here's what I was trying to say." And if you can't convince them of your point? Suck it up. Perhaps your verbal skills need finetuning. Perhaps you are wrong.

I know these people in haiti could get a better life if they would only try to.

Omigod.

These people are faced with men who will do whatever it takes to prevent them from getting a better life, who have big guns that the CIA gave them, and who don't mind mowing down thousands of peasants at a time.

Please, keep this knowledge to yourself, unless you are willing to take it with you to Haiti.

 

[Guest]

Yeah, well with your word choices, you're creating a reality where people are going to put you on ignore. You are hectoring, blundering, preaching, and patronising-- ignorant of realities that many of us face, ignoring the things people are telling you-- dude, really.

When someone tells you you been insulting, you can't say "no I haven't." You'll never convince them. You can say, "Damn, I'm sorry, here's what I was trying to say." And if you can't convince them of your point? Suck it up. Perhaps your verbal skills need finetuning. Perhaps you are wrong.

Omigod.

Please, keep this knowledge to yourself, unless you are willing to take it with you to Haiti.

I'd feed him a dirt cookie of my own making.