Dirt cookies

[sethp]

Yeah, well with your word choices, you're creating a reality where people are going to put you on ignore. You are hectoring, blundering, preaching, and patronising-- ignorant of realities that many of us face, ignoring the things people are telling you-- dude, really.

When someone tells you you been insulting, you can't say "no I haven't." You'll never convince them. You can say, "Damn, I'm sorry, here's what I was trying to say." And if you can't convince them of your point? Suck it up. Perhaps your verbal skills need finetuning. Perhaps you are wrong.

Omigod.

These people are faced with men who will do whatever it takes to prevent them from getting a better life, who have big guns that the CIA gave them, and who don't mind mowing down thousands of peasants at a time.

Please, keep this knowledge to yourself, unless you are willing to take it with you to Haiti.

look ...you don't think that men have faced far worse odds and prevailed. It's in the history books. men in america have died for what they believe in much less for food. I know that I would fight to the death if I was born in haiti..that's freedom. How many people died in the revolutionaly war ..or the civil war or world wars 1 and 2... how many people have died in china or north korea that we don't even know about for freedom. I know you'll just insult me again but it's the truth. we can argue about how effective resistance is and how great the odds are against them and I know it would be rough but a better example is ths.....

Now what about cloudy's pine ridge people. no body is going to shoot them down..what is thier excuse..there is none. they just "do not want a better life".

period.

 

[Stella_Omega]

look ...you don't think that men have faced far worse odds and prevailed. It's in the history books. men in america have died for what they believe in much less for food. I know that I would fight to the death if I was born in haiti..that's freedom. How many people died in the revolutionaly war ..or the civil war or world wars 1 and 2... how many people have died in china or north korea that we don't even know about for freedom. I know you'll just insult me again but it's the truth. we can argue about how effective resistance is and how great the odds are against them and I know it would be rough but a better example is ths.....

Now what about cloudy's pine ridge people. no body is going to shoot them down..what is thier excuse..there is none. they just "do not want a better life".

period.

That's nice, seth. I'm very proud of your spirit and go-get-em attitude. It's quite possible that one reason things are as they are in Haiti is because the young bucks like you have already fought to the death.

I am not arguing about resistance or anything of that nature. I am am not insulting you. I am saying that you are insulting people and you do not seem to realise it. I am saying that you need to learn what to say, when to say it, and when to shut up. And when to apologise.

One place you really need to shut up is about Cloudy's Pine Ridge people. No arguments-- Just shut up.

Really.

 

[sethp]

That's nice, seth. I'm very proud of your spirit and go-get-em attitude. It's quite possible that one reason things are as they are in Haiti is because the young bucks like you have already fought to the death.

I am not arguing about resistance or anything of that nature. I am am not insulting you. I am saying that you are insulting people and you do not seem to realise it. I am saying that you need to learn what to say, when to say it, and when to shut up. And when to apologise.

One place you really need to shut up is about Cloudy's Pine Ridge people. No arguments-- Just shut up.

Really.

I really disagree about pine ridge. That's completely different then a third world country. They can pull themselves up if they want. It might mean leaving the community for a while and getting educated, job training, making money and funneling some of it back to the community or partnering up in unique ways with different companies and coorporations but they chose to live in poverty.

I think I said that pretty well. Not in an insulting way ..but very opinionated I agree.

Stella especially, but anyone else I welcome to discuss pine ridge. How am I wrong with that paragraph?

 

[sethp]

Unemployment on the Reservation hovers around 20% and 49% live below the Federal poverty level.[1] Adolescent suicide is four times the national average. Many of the families have no electricity, telephone, running water, or sewer. Many families use wood stoves to heat their homes. The population on Pine Ridge has among the shortest life expectancies of any group in the Western Hemisphere: approximately 47 years for males and in the low 50s for females. The infant mortality rate is five times the United States national average

In the past, the tribe attempted a moccasin factory, a meat-processing plant, and a fishhook-snelling operation, but all of these business ventures failed.[6] The Prairie Wind Casino is an exception to the rule for businesses on the reservation. The casino began in 1994 in 3 doublewide trailers, but a new $20 million casino, hotel and restaurant was unveiled in early 2007. The casino provides 250 jobs and most are to tribal residents.[7]

It is bleak but they stay and try to make it work with old paradigms that do not work in the modern world. the casino is an exception...not the best way to make money but at least they are trying something. most people have never heard of pine ridge nor do they care. If the people of pine ridge cared about themselves they would do something.

Most of them do not. The bad thing about the casino is that many of the residents of pine ridge will waste what little money they do have there on gambling and cheap achohol.

They have not learned how to live with dignity and they have given up on life.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I really disagree about pine ridge. That's completely different then a third world country. They can pull themselves up if they want. It might mean leaving the community for a while and getting educated, job training, making money and funneling some of it back to the community or partnering up in unique ways with different companies and coorporations but they chose to live in poverty.

I think I said that pretty well. Not in an insulting way ..but very opinionated I agree.

Stella especially, but anyone else I welcome to discuss pine ridge. How am I wrong with that paragraph?

First of all, go google pine ridge read up on it, everything you can find. Here's a start;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation

Then you'll have some basis from which to make comments.

Now what about cloudy's pine ridge people. no body is going to shoot them down..what is thier excuse..there is none. they just "do not want a better life".

period.

Didn't your mother EVER teach you any manners?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Unemployment on the Reservation hovers around 20% and 49% live below the Federal poverty level.[1] Adolescent suicide is four times the national average. Many of the families have no electricity, telephone, running water, or sewer. Many families use wood stoves to heat their homes. The population on Pine Ridge has among the shortest life expectancies of any group in the Western Hemisphere: approximately 47 years for males and in the low 50s for females. The infant mortality rate is five times the United States national average

In the past, the tribe attempted a moccasin factory, a meat-processing plant, and a fishhook-snelling operation, but all of these business ventures failed.[6] The Prairie Wind Casino is an exception to the rule for businesses on the reservation. The casino began in 1994 in 3 doublewide trailers, but a new $20 million casino, hotel and restaurant was unveiled in early 2007. The casino provides 250 jobs and most are to tribal residents.[7]

It is bleak but they stay and try to make it work with old paradigms that do not work in the modern world. the casino is an exception...not the best way to make money but at least they are trying something. most people have never heard of pine ridge nor do they care. If the people of pine ridge cared about themselves they would do something.

Most of them do not. The bad thing about the casino is that many of the residents of pine ridge will waste what little money they do have there on gambling and cheap achohol.

They have not learned how to live with dignity and they have given up on life.

I see. And that's their own damn fault. Because seth could have shown them how to live-- if they wanted to ask him, but they don't!

I think I'm putting you on ignore for a while, okay? Maybe you'll be older in a week's time.

 

[sethp]

First of all, go google pine ridge read up on it, everything you can find. Here's a start;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Ridge_Indian_Reservation

Then you'll have some basis from which to make comments.
Didn't your mother EVER teach you any manners?

as you can see I've already looked it up an wiki. they need to pull themselves up..no excuse..How can they let their kids live in conditions like this and put them at risk for suicide and depression. they need to leave and make a better life for themselves and do something except play the victim and waste away.

 

[sethp]

I see. And that's their own damn fault. Because seth could have shown them how to live-- if they wanted to ask him, but they don't!

I think I'm putting you on ignore for a while, okay? Maybe you'll be older in a week's time.

look ...all i'm saying is they don't have to live like this. They don't. sethp doesn' t need to help them. they need to help themselves. and they won't. People who let their children grow up in a life like this are the worst kind of people. It is their own damn fault because they are too lazy to do anything about it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Bye, seth.

 

[cloudy]

Unemployment on the Reservation hovers around 20% and 49% live below the Federal poverty level.[1] Adolescent suicide is four times the national average. Many of the families have no electricity, telephone, running water, or sewer. Many families use wood stoves to heat their homes. The population on Pine Ridge has among the shortest life expectancies of any group in the Western Hemisphere: approximately 47 years for males and in the low 50s for females. The infant mortality rate is five times the United States national average

In the past, the tribe attempted a moccasin factory, a meat-processing plant, and a fishhook-snelling operation, but all of these business ventures failed.[6] The Prairie Wind Casino is an exception to the rule for businesses on the reservation. The casino began in 1994 in 3 doublewide trailers, but a new $20 million casino, hotel and restaurant was unveiled in early 2007. The casino provides 250 jobs and most are to tribal residents.[7]

It is bleak but they stay and try to make it work with old paradigms that do not work in the modern world. the casino is an exception...not the best way to make money but at least they are trying something. most people have never heard of pine ridge nor do they care. If the people of pine ridge cared about themselves they would do something.

Most of them do not. The bad thing about the casino is that many of the residents of pine ridge will waste what little money they do have there on gambling and cheap achohol.

They have not learned how to live with dignity and they have given up on life.

Fuck you, you ignorant racist piece of shit.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Cut the governmental foreign aid. Haiti should determine themselves. I think that's likely the only truly fair way to see a lasting result. Oh, we could prop up a foreign power for a while, send drop after drop of aid, but "give a man a fish..." and all that.

I don't necessarily agree with "just do it" philosophies of success, but I can't think of a community or population that was truly and wholly bettered by having their choices made for them and having grown used to the handouts.

Empires, nations, cities, communities, and people originate, grow, adapt, wither, and pass. I'm not sure keeping Haiti fed is sufficient priority for the US government at this time.

 

[neonlyte]

I agree with you, Joe, to a point. Self determination is always the correct route. I know little about Haiti but the reduction to a level of poverty to the point where the most basic of food stock is adulterated with dirt to provide sustenance is a clear indicator of the severity of their problem.

Past adulterations of bread are linked to cataclysmic events, the Finnish 'long winter' in the 19C when birch bark and bone were ground to augment meagre supplies of grain flour, the Ukrainian Holodormor, political inspired famine, again bark and bones mixed with ground grass seeds. In the last century, war saw chalk added to flour to stretch supplies. This century has witnessed cardboard processed to resemble rice even before rice prices doubled this year.

I suspect Haiti's problems go way deeper than food supply - it doesn't need a crystal ball - food aid can only give temporary respite, and I agree again, Haiti is not important enough for the rest of the world to care about. There is no instant solution, at least, not one that 'we' have appetite for.

 

[shereads]

All it takes to succeed is the right attitude and work ethic. that is a bit simplistic

Your views are a bit simplistic like the Titanic was a bit moist.

I think I may follow Stella's example here and just ignore you - not because you're insulting (to find someone insulting, I first need to want that person's respect) but because if you're as young as you seem to be, we're bending the law just by talking with you at an erotica site.

Say bye-bye.

 

[shereads]

Self determination is always the correct route.

Yes, and Haiti has been allowed precious little opportunity to practice self-determination.

 

[neonlyte]

Yes, and Haiti has been allowed precious little opportunity to practice self-determination.

Yes, and the saddest thing is ordinary people played almost no part. The ones that had duty to protect them stole their futures.


ETA: The Haitian Senate has outed the Prime Minister following this weeks food riots.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7344729.stm

It would be encouraging if it were not for the PM elect words: 'Now it's my turn to play'.

 

[shereads]

Grown-ups interested in a Haitian-American perspective on that nation's food crisis and the recent unrest - and people seeking a meaningful way to help - might want to read this article from today's Sun-Sentinel (Broward County FL newspaper)

Send money not food, Haitians say
S. Florida activists say aid is not reaching needy

By Georgia East
April 12, 2008

POMPANO BEACH - South Florida activists are calling on the Haitian government to drastically reduce custom fees and curb corruption at the ports, so food shipments can reach those desperately in need.

Until then, local activists are recommending South Floridians send cash, rather than food, to the impoverished country.

"The quickest way to help is to provide cash to local organizations in the field that have credibility in terms of assisting the poor,'' said Jean-Robert LaFortune, president of the Haitian American Grassroots Coalition, based in Miami.

The rising cost of food in Haiti sparked a week of riots that began in Les Cayes and spread throughout the country. In Port-au-Prince, the capital, businesses closed as looters ran through the streets, calling for top government officials to resign. While the streets have quieted and some businesses have reopened, Haitians struggle to feed their families as the price of such staples as rice and cornmeal rises above their means.

Many who live here and have loved ones in Haiti say they want to help, but high tariffs and horror stories of food rotting in containers waiting to clear customs at Haitian ports have deterred some South Floridians from sending goods.

"We stopped sending things because they charge so much,'' said Phito Thelot, president of the Haitian American Foundation International in Delray Beach, about the fees he paid to the Haitian government.

Thelot said he had to pay $125 in duty on 2,500 pounds of rice he brought last May to Haiti to give away to the poor.

"If they charged us less each one of us would bring more,'' he said. "But it's not enough for the government for us to feed the population; they want to make money off of us with the taxes.''

The price of rice has doubled in less than a year, said Angel Aloma, executive director of Food for the Poor, an international relief and development organization with headquarters in Coconut Creek.

"A bag of rice that six months ago was $25 is now $51 wholesale, so it has gone up 100 percent,'' said Aloma. "When you're dealing with a poverty situation, staples are usually what people depend on.''

About 275,170 Haitians live in South Florida, according to the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey. The community could offer major assistance to the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, and South Florida's proximity to Haiti has prompted many, including non-Haitians to help with relief efforts in the past, experts said.

Although recent looting and protests drew international attention to Haiti's desperation, those familiar with the country say the economic conditions that led to the riots have been in place for years.

The rising cost of gasoline and corn, along with the country's dependence on imported goods, are partly to blame, said experts. Earnings average $2 a day and can't keep pace with inflation.

"For the past 10 to 15 years the international community has compelled the Haitian government to implement a policy to import goods rather than produce them,'' said Lafortune. "In time, the local production decreased so much that the country has become solely reliant on the international market for food staples.''

If the price of basic foods do not come down, Haitians here fear there will be more unrest.

"It's not just the poor, the middle class is getting affected and it's creeping its way up through different social strata,'' said Marvin DeJean, a Coral Springs resident and senior vice president of a public relations firm. "The people who are making ends meet are the people who have family members who are sending money.''

Keeping Haitians afloat during these rough times brought an alliance of Broward County Haitian ministers together Wednesday evening at the First Haitian Baptist Church of Pompano Beach.

The pastors want to start a food drive, and they sent an e-mail to Haitian government officials requesting a break on the fees.

"Without duty free we can't do this,'' said Pastor Jacques Durmonay, at First Haitian Baptist Church of Pompano. "People are starving. This is a responsibility on our shoulders, to feed people when they are in need.''

For what it's worth, people are trying to wrest control of their destiny. Their country is almost entirely dependent in imported food, largely thanks to decades of foreign for-profit intervention; food rots at the docks because of import tariffs demanded by a corrupt government, one that couldn't remain in power without foreign assistance.

It's fine to talk about the importance of self-determination, but the time to cut people loose and refuse to interfere is not after your policies have helped weaken them to the point where they are eating dirt.

 

[neonlyte]

The Haitian Senate has just outed the Prime Minister following this weeks food riots.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7344729.stm

It would be encouraging if it were not for the PM elect words: 'Now it's my turn to play'.

At least the UN appear to be getting involved, perhaps South/Central America intervention force could be used to get food supplies out of Customs - I think any 'western' force would be doomed to be rejected, they were ultimately the root of the problem.

 

[shereads]

Beyond Borders is a top-rated charitable organization seeking to address the roots of poverty in Haiti, end the practice of child servitude, and petition Congress for forgiveness of the massive national debt Haiti inherited from the Duvalier dictators.

http://www.beyondborders.net/index.php

They list some "special needs" (non-monetary donations of skills and services) that an AHer or two might be able to help with:

Database Developer: We are in need of someone with expertise in MySQL and PHP to help design/develop a Web-based database for managing information from schools, literacy centers, teacher training, community surveys, and other interventions in Haiti. Please contact David Diggs if you are interested. dadiggs@gmail.com

Volunteers with Strong Oral and Written Communication Skills: We are looking for volunteers who can help us stay in closer touch with our constituents and cultivate new relationships. Having some experience with Beyond Borders or experience in Haiti and/or the Dominican Republic a plus. Contact us for more information. mail@beyondborders.net

 

[neonlyte]

Beyond Borders is a top-rated charitable organization seeking to address the roots of poverty in Haiti, end the practice of child servitude, and petition Congress for forgiveness of the massive national debt Haiti inherited from the Duvalier dictators.

http://www.beyondborders.net/index.php

They list some "special needs" (non-monetary donations of skills and services) that an AHer or two might be able to help with:

Thank you. They have some interesting and valuable projects in hand... I'll discuss with the wife.

 

[shereads]

They have some interesting and valuable projects in hand... I'll discuss with the wife.

"I know people can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I saw it done at Cirque de Soleil."

~ Stephen Colbert

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I hesitate to post on a thread that has apparently become a tedious pissing contest, and this may have been mentioned by someone else, but part of the reason for poor people starving is this country's ethanol scam. It has driven up the cost of food so we can make rich 'rent-seeking' agribiz interests in the U.S. richer, look like we're 'doing something' for the environment, and let pols collect lots of campaign cash from ADM et al. This story suggests that it's more than just foolish - it's evil.

Written by me in a long-dead thread:

Haiti has bled since the first African was dragged onto that benighted island's shore. It's almost an existential reality that "Haiti bleeds." In many ways it's the victim of the same socio-political pathologies that afflict sub-Saharan Africa. Frankly, no one knows how to fix it. I can say this, though: The fix will come when there is a popular concensus among the Haitian people in support of the rule of law. How that comes about I have no idea. It's an educational project that might take generations even after it begins, which it has not. The ability of the U.S. government to help in this regard is nil. Certain civil society institutions might be able to do more.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I hesitate to post on a thread that has apparently become a tedious pissing contest, and this may have been mentioned by someone else, but part of the reason for poor people starving is this country's ethanol scam. It has driven up the cost of food so we can make rich 'rent-seeking' agribiz interests in the U.S. richer, look like we're 'doing something' for the environment, and let pols collect lots of campaign cash from ADM et al. This story suggests that it's more than just foolish - it's evil.

Written by me in a long-dead thread:

Haiti has bled since the first African was dragged onto that benighted island's shore. It's almost an existential reality that "Haiti bleeds." In many ways it's the victim of the same socio-political pathologies that afflict sub-Saharan Africa. Frankly, no one knows how to fix it. I can say this, though: The fix will come when there is a popular concensus among the Haitian people in support of the rule of law. How that comes about I have no idea. It's an educational project that might take generations even after it begins, which it has not. The ability of the U.S. government to help in this regard is nil. Certain civil society institutions might be able to do more.

Is it beyond reason to be hands off? Honestly, are we proposing--in this day and age--that it is unreasonable to allow nations to rise and fall, communities to thrive and perish, and people to achieve and fail? Rather, that nations should only rise, communities should only thrive, and people should only achieve instead?

(I'm not saying this is your point at all, this is just me musing on the subject).

As an example, is Haiti falling into chaos, starvation, and disrepair not... well, natural? Is this not what happens to some (and maybe on a long enough timeline "all") nations and people? I agree, at the moment without trying to overthink it, that ultimately, they must decide themselves and I'm unsure American tax dollars are well spent otherwise.

 

[shereads]

Let them eat dirt cookies.

 

[sethp]

We can help. If only by keeping the "free" food and aid flowing. By sending skilled help there like doctors without borders, amnesty international etc. Ultimatly only the haitian people can help themselves.

They could help themselves if they wanted to.

We cannot be held prisoner by the past, no matter how horible, hurtful or devastating it may have been.

One can never truly rise to his highest potential until he throws off those schackles and until he says what can I do today to make my life better.

I say help if you want..in both haiti and pine ridge, and we should. But until "those" people decide that they want a better life, well..they never will have it. But...if they really decide that this is what they want...then nothing can stop them from achieving what they desire.

 

[MagicaPractica]

I know it seems that way...you know... that people just can't get out. but you have to believe. Sometimes you have to beleive in someone when they can't believe in themselves. What if someone from the inner city... say a 19yo who just got out of high school and she can't find work but is going to the library every night and studying on her own and she likes to write and she's kinky like us..so she finds lit and trolls the threads like we do...and then she reads this thread and overwhelmingly..the message is. " you can't escape." "there are no cinderallas" "the man is keeping you down and that's the way it always will be."

I have to be the torch bearer...I have to be the voice of hope in a land of desolation because I know she can get an education and a job and a career and get a $500k house and move out of the city..

I know these people in haiti could get a better life if they would only try to.

Actually, I said that there is hope but that many people can't see it from where they are. It takes someone showing them that there is hope. If a nineteen year old is doing all those things, chances are someone taught her somwhere along the line that there is hope, and suggested a path. The question to me is, what are you doing to be that voice of hope?

I'm not sure whether this applies to Haiti though. Leaders are needed there to light the way.