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For Those Who Might Be Wondering Why We Might Be In Ukraine

Rightguide said:
I only commented on why it happened and the "fact" that Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe, didn't deserve our help.
Click to expand...
It is less corrupt than Russia. Less corrupt than Belarus. Also less corrupt than South Vietnam was when Americans were dying to save it.
 
ll74 said:
Re read this thread.
Your thread is obvious from start to finish.
Click to expand...
What is obvious to you is simply your fantasy. Like your belief in the integrity of the Democrat Party and its works. Just admit you're lying and too lazy to find a fact to back up your BS.
 
Rightguide said:
What is obvious to you is simply your fantasy. Like your belief in the integrity of the Democrat Party and its works. Just admit you're lying and too lazy to find a fact to back up your BS.
Click to expand...
Deflection.
You attempted to blame the war on Biden and then your continue to support Putin.
 
Rightguide said:
Zelensky isn't going to have much say in the matter.
Click to expand...
Really? How so? Russia's economy's on the brink, he can't keep it up much longer. Zelensky can keep fighting with pitchforks, if that's all they have. Trump can't tell him to stop. No matter how hard you try and make it true....*chuckles*
 
Saying that Zelensky shouldn't have a say in the ending of an invasion of the country he's the President of is just the stupidest shit I've ever heard
 

For Those Who Think the Kremlin is willing to hold genuine negotiations and end the war​

Russia's statements and actions once again underscore the Kremlin's unwillingness to negotiate fairly and end the war in Ukraine.
  • The Kremlin once again reiterated its claim that Ukraine lacks sovereignty, setting the stage for Moscow to argue that Ukraine has no right to negotiate with Russia or that any future agreements reached with Ukraine are invalid.
  • Medvedchuk's interview and Peskov's statements of 16 February continue to cast doubt on Moscow's readiness to negotiate fairly in order to resolve the war and create information conditions for Russia to violate any agreements reached on the grounds that the Ukrainian authorities allegedly had no legal right to conclude them.
  • The Russian military appears to be preparing for a multi-year effort to capture Ukraine's "fortress belt" in Donetsk Oblast, which once again underscores Putin's clear disinterest in a lasting and durable peace in Ukraine.
  • Ukraine's European partners reiterated their support for Ukraine's war effort and domestic defence industry at the Munich Security Conference.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/02/17/7498665/
 
I'm afraid Trump is over-estimating himself when it comes to Ukraine. He may be able to influence Putin but his leverage over Zelensky is limited, and he's succeeded in waking up Europe, that's for sure. In overall terms, Europe is a superpower, industrially and militarily, that has lain quiescent since WW2 and the end of the Cold War, for rather obvious reasons. What Putin, and now Trump, between them have succeeded in doing is waking up Europe as European politics takes a marked turn to the right and towards a resurgent nationalism.

Trump may wish for peace, for whatever reasons, but it looks very much as if the peace he is looking for will come at Ukraine's cost. Zelensky has already started what Ukraine is looking for - the return of the 2014 borders, Russian withdrawal and Putin in jail for his war crimes. Trump has already tried to shaft Ukraine on minerals, Putin is already laying the grounds to renege on any deal, and I doubt his "negotiations" with Putin will come up with anything acceptable to Ukraine. This is where the EU's support for Ukraine becomes important, as it becomes more and more obvious Ukraine will need to continue fighting without American support in future, other than what the EU can but from America on Ukraine's behalf.

The question is, does the EU have the political will to step up, and the managerial ability to actually get things done, industrially.

If we look at the numbers, it’s obvious how enormous the contribution of the EU to Ukraine’s defense has been over the last three years. To say that the EU helps Ukraine less than the USA is simply untrue. In real terms, the total aid allocated by European countries to Ukraine over the past three years surpasses the US – nearing almost 140 billion euros as of February 2025, according to the IFW. Even in terms of military support, where the United States has almost limitless resources compared to Europeans, Ukraine is armed with more European-provided equipment.
  • The EU has supplied more planes, more tanks, more IFVs. Europeans are even responsible for providing more Patriots to Ukraine than Washington. According to publicly available data from Oryx, the contribution of Europe and the US to Ukraine, broken down by main types of arms is as follows:
  • Europe supplied Ukraine with 51 planes of different types, and another 85 are waiting to be delivered. USA - 0.(Of note is that Europeans gave away most of their F-16s to Ukraine, instead signing contracts to replace them with newer and more expensive F-35 models from US companies)
  • Helicopters, Europe supplied 73, USA - 21.
  • Tanks, Europe supplied 887 tanks, USA - 31 Abrams, and paid for 45 Soviet Т-72s, which were modernized in Czechia and given to Ukraine. More European tanks have been committed to being delivered, as well as Australia's 49 Abrams. Nothing additional is expected from the USA.
  • IFVs, Europe provided 1086 units of different types, USA - 300 Bradleys. No new American commitment. The EU is committed to delivering 100's of Lynxes and CV90's over 2025 and into 2026
  • AFV's - haven't been able to pull the numbers on these but again, European deliveries well exceed the number of Strykers handed over
  • Towed artillery, according to public data, US supplied 259 howitzers, while Europe provided 183, but the real numbers are likely higher, as many countries were not open about their deliveries as the US was. Ukraine is also now producing approximately 250 x 155mm guns per year with the number climbing.
  • Self-propelled guns, Europe supplied 762 units of various types, USA provided 18. Germany is delivering additional units, as is France.
  • Multiple launch rocket systems, US provided 40 Himars, Europe supplied 28 Himars and analogues (M270), as well as over 50 post-Soviet MLRS models.
  • Patriots: Ukraine received 2 batteries from the US, while the Europeans provided:- 3 batteries and 6 line batteries (1 Patriot battery consists of up to 8 line batteries) from Germany;- 5 line batteries from the Netherlands;- 1 battery from Romania, paid for by US and Norway;- 2 SAMP/T batteries – French-Italian Patriot analogues. PS: Just to make things clear, this is not final official data, but analysis of open source information. Yes, a lot of this equipment is US-made, but it was EU countries who bought it for Ukraine, or gave the AFU their stocks (sometimes draining their own supplies completely) and placed new orders with US companies.
The United States jas played a crucial role in Ukraine’s defense so far, but Europeans will need to step up their contributions, spending, and overall focus on defense, if the US is to take a more hands-off approach, as seems likely. This won't be easy, but the time has come for Germany and France to step up and take a leadership role and build the defense sector according to the level of threat. Europe needs to guarantee its own security and can clearly no longer shelter behind the US defense umbrella, a point eump clearly made during his first term.

The way towards increasing Europe’s role in the continent’s defence is clear. Now, priorities are being set, spending is being planned, coordination is happening. Defense and security are a long-term task for the EU. The Ukraine issue is key. What is needed is not a quick ceasefire at any cost, as Trump would seem to want, but a stable peace and a deterrence against any new war. This is the foundation and it may mean that Europe and Ukraine continue to fight without American backing, although no doubt Trump will be willing to make a quick buck by selling old weapons and ammo to Europe for Ukraine to use.

A strong Ukraine = a strong Europe. A strong Ukrainian army is the key towards deterring Russia. Europe has already shown itself as one of the most reliable and generous partners of Ukraine, a partner that is capable of putting their priorities straight.

1739791524625.png
 
Donald Trump negotiated the surrender deal of the USA to the Taliban in Afghanistan, the later withdrawal executed with mind boggling incompetence by Biden's people.

That example does not bode well for Ukraine, but this time Trump will get top billing for the whole shit show.
 
ChloeTzang said:
I'm afraid Trump is over-estimating himself when it comes to Ukraine. He may be able to influence Putin but his leverage over Zelensky is limited, and he's succeeded in waking up Europe, that's for sure. In overall terms, Europe is a superpower, industrially and militarily, that has lain quiescent since WW2 and the end of the Cold War, for rather obvious reasons. What Putin, and now Trump, between them have succeeded in doing is waking up Europe as European politics takes a marked turn to the right and towards a resurgent nationalism.

Trump may wish for peace, for whatever reasons, but it looks very much as if the peace he is looking for will come at Ukraine's cost. Zelensky has already started what Ukraine is looking for - the return of the 2014 borders, Russian withdrawal and Putin in jail for his war crimes. Trump has already tried to shaft Ukraine on minerals, Putin is already laying the grounds to renege on any deal, and I doubt his "negotiations" with Putin will come up with anything acceptable to Ukraine. This is where the EU's support for Ukraine becomes important, as it becomes more and more obvious Ukraine will need to continue fighting without American support in future, other than what the EU can but from America on Ukraine's behalf.

The question is, does the EU have the political will to step up, and the managerial ability to actually get things done, industrially.

If we look at the numbers, it’s obvious how enormous the contribution of the EU to Ukraine’s defense has been over the last three years. To say that the EU helps Ukraine less than the USA is simply untrue. In real terms, the total aid allocated by European countries to Ukraine over the past three years surpasses the US – nearing almost 140 billion euros as of February 2025, according to the IFW. Even in terms of military support, where the United States has almost limitless resources compared to Europeans, Ukraine is armed with more European-provided equipment.
  • The EU has supplied more planes, more tanks, more IFVs. Europeans are even responsible for providing more Patriots to Ukraine than Washington. According to publicly available data from Oryx, the contribution of Europe and the US to Ukraine, broken down by main types of arms is as follows:
  • Europe supplied Ukraine with 51 planes of different types, and another 85 are waiting to be delivered. USA - 0.(Of note is that Europeans gave away most of their F-16s to Ukraine, instead signing contracts to replace them with newer and more expensive F-35 models from US companies)
  • Helicopters, Europe supplied 73, USA - 21.
  • Tanks, Europe supplied 887 tanks, USA - 31 Abrams, and paid for 45 Soviet Т-72s, which were modernized in Czechia and given to Ukraine. More European tanks have been committed to being delivered, as well as Australia's 49 Abrams. Nothing additional is expected from the USA.
  • IFVs, Europe provided 1086 units of different types, USA - 300 Bradleys. No new American commitment. The EU is committed to delivering 100's of Lynxes and CV90's over 2025 and into 2026
  • AFV's - haven't been able to pull the numbers on these but again, European deliveries well exceed the number of Strykers handed over
  • Towed artillery, according to public data, US supplied 259 howitzers, while Europe provided 183, but the real numbers are likely higher, as many countries were not open about their deliveries as the US was. Ukraine is also now producing approximately 250 x 155mm guns per year with the number climbing.
  • Self-propelled guns, Europe supplied 762 units of various types, USA provided 18. Germany is delivering additional units, as is France.
  • Multiple launch rocket systems, US provided 40 Himars, Europe supplied 28 Himars and analogues (M270), as well as over 50 post-Soviet MLRS models.
  • Patriots: Ukraine received 2 batteries from the US, while the Europeans provided:- 3 batteries and 6 line batteries (1 Patriot battery consists of up to 8 line batteries) from Germany;- 5 line batteries from the Netherlands;- 1 battery from Romania, paid for by US and Norway;- 2 SAMP/T batteries – French-Italian Patriot analogues. PS: Just to make things clear, this is not final official data, but analysis of open source information. Yes, a lot of this equipment is US-made, but it was EU countries who bought it for Ukraine, or gave the AFU their stocks (sometimes draining their own supplies completely) and placed new orders with US companies.
The United States jas played a crucial role in Ukraine’s defense so far, but Europeans will need to step up their contributions, spending, and overall focus on defense, if the US is to take a more hands-off approach, as seems likely. This won't be easy, but the time has come for Germany and France to step up and take a leadership role and build the defense sector according to the level of threat. Europe needs to guarantee its own security and can clearly no longer shelter behind the US defense umbrella, a point eump clearly made during his first term.

The way towards increasing Europe’s role in the continent’s defence is clear. Now, priorities are being set, spending is being planned, coordination is happening. Defense and security are a long-term task for the EU. The Ukraine issue is key. What is needed is not a quick ceasefire at any cost, as Trump would seem to want, but a stable peace and a deterrence against any new war. This is the foundation and it may mean that Europe and Ukraine continue to fight without American backing, although no doubt Trump will be willing to make a quick buck by selling old weapons and ammo to Europe for Ukraine to use.

A strong Ukraine = a strong Europe. A strong Ukrainian army is the key towards deterring Russia. Europe has already shown itself as one of the most reliable and generous partners of Ukraine, a partner that is capable of putting their priorities straight.

View attachment 2496291
Click to expand...
47 is literally telling Ukraine that they must give up land and future NATO considers. When asked what Russia should give up, the answer is nothing.
 
ll74 said:
47 is literally telling Ukraine that they must give up land and future NATO considers. When asked what Russia should give up, the answer is nothing.
Click to expand...
Yah, well he voted for Trump....what the hell do you expect. Chloe will justify Trump's plan,even though it goes total against what Chloe believes.
 
ll74 said:
47 is literally telling Ukraine that they must give up land and future NATO considers. When asked what Russia should give up, the answer is nothing.
Click to expand...

Yep, it sounds like that. I hope not. It sounds like Zelensky will have no part of it if that's the outcome, and I honestly can't see Putin negotiating in good faith at all. And Zelensky won't cave without a lot more than seems to be on offer, as well as surefire guarantees, which Trump will not provide. Seems a bit silly to me to be doing this now when Russia is on the point of collapsing.

On the third hand, US aid is, I think, locked in for 2025 - one thing Biden managed to do, even if it was too little too late, and Europe IS stepping up, again too little to late, but the last three years has given Ukraine's military a window to expand and equip to the point where they can hold Russia off. The big thing now is artillery ammo and I have no idea what will happen there. Can Europe by itself keep Ukraine supplied with enough? Probably they can, they have all been expanding production. More Leopards and Marders keep trickling in, Lynx's and Fuchs for Ukraine are starting to roll out, more Patrias are coming, CV90's are too....the UK is manufacturing artillery barrels, Ukraine is bhurning out it's own artillery and their own ammo production is expanding.

As for drones, they're pouring out, more and more of them, and more cheaply too. Over the next little while we should see some big hits on Russian infrastructure as the drone attacks become larger and larger and more effective. At the very least, Ukraine can hold it's own without American support, and as it destroys the Russian economy and keeps killing or incapacitating Russians at 50-60k per month, Russia's ability to fight this war will deplete. They key thing for Ukraine now is to avoid a ceasefire, keep slaughtering Russians and destroying their industry, particularly oil and military-related manufacturing. Targeting factories with the workers in them would be a good move. As would identifying and drone bombing the housing of Russian pilots and air crew, as well as senior officers and politicians.
 
Article from Sept 2024 - Ukraine Is Now Able To Produce 155mm Artillery Shells And Howitzers

The gist of it
  • Ukraine is now producing 155mm ammo in unknown quantities and is expected to triple production by the end of 2024
  • Ukraine also announced earlier this year that they have an agreement with the German company Rheinmetall to develop facilities for producing 155mm ammunition. Once complete, these facilities are expected to produce enough rounds to sustain Ukraine’s current expenditure of 155mm ammunition. This ends there reliance on the US for 155mm ammo. They likely have enough now stockpiled and from EU production to hang in there
  • Ukraine is domestically producing it's own self-propelled howitzer, the 2S22 Bohdana 155mm. Last update I read (Oct 2024) said 20 per month but this had been continually expanding over last year. Zelensky has said they are now producing the largest number of self-propelled howitzers in Europe per month (he said this in July 2024).
https://www.forbes.com/sites/vikram...produce-155mm-artillery-shells-and-howitzers/

https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine...-howitzers-in-europe-per-month-zelensky-says/

https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/10...rs-increased-to-about-20-zelenskyy-announces/
 
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