Guilt and BDSM

[Aeroil]

I was almost fascinated, just my curious nature I think, the idea that I could be interested in something like this was interesting, especially so because It did explain a lot of my earlier fantasies.
There is a scene in a book called "Wizard's First Rule" that I found strangely fascinating that I read a few weeks prior, and didn't really understand why, and it also helped explain it.
An interesting exploration.

 

[HawkEye38]

Yeah I used to think I would be a rapist too.

I still wonder if rapists are sadists gone awry, or if people who rape people are doing it for a very different reason.

I hear ya.

It gets really creepy when you hear something about a person getting raped or tortured on the news. I dunno, that sort of thing still un-nerves me. Sometimes I wonder where exactley the line is between what we do and what "they" do

 

[tealsphynx]

I hear ya.

It gets really creepy when you hear something about a person getting raped or tortured on the news. I dunno, that sort of thing still un-nerves me. Sometimes I wonder where exactley the line is between what we do and what "they" do

The people we torture consent to it? Just a thought. We have limits? Then again they might too...I don't know, we don't get caught? Ok I'll stop answering questions now since I'm obiously not good at it....
I'm always still worried my Mrs. Angry-eyes will pop out and I'll give little subby hubby too harsh a beating, or use waaaaaaaaaay to many clothespins in a zipper and rip off tiny strips of flesh (I'm not into anything that causes blood). I worry I will become a psycho you would hear about on the news. Sometimes I feel it is his trust in me and my fear of myself (and maybe my don't give it if you can't take it motto ) that keeps me from going too far.

 

[hazel43]

Just a thought...

When all of you were young and just starting to discover your BDSM
tendencies what did you feel?

Worry?
Sadness?
Joy?
Guilt?

If the feelings were negative... what did you do to deal with it?

How did you overcome it? If you have overcome it that is.

Questions, Concerns, Complaints, Comments, and Colloquialisms (If I spelled that right it's a miracle) are welcome and encouraged.

So many questions. The answers could fill a book.
But I am also curious about how others felt. When I felt aroused by pain when I was a child I thought there must be something seriously wrong with me. I drew dozens of scenes involving being whipped. But I would always destroy them or keep them hidden away in a safe place. I found some of them in one of my boxes about ten years ago. I still felt guilty. And afraid that they might be discovered. I tore them up into the tinyest pieses so that the trash collecters wouldn't see what they were.
Last summer I was extremely stressed out, and found myself fantacizing about this stuff again. I started searching the internet and found this place. I have felt so unexplainably gratefull. There is so much to learn by reading here.

It gets really creepy when you hear something about a person getting raped or tortured on the news. I dunno, that sort of thing still un-nerves me. Sometimes I wonder where exactley the line is between what we do and what "they" do

All I can say is read the threads here. The purpose is sexual arousal, not to do harm. The more hard core fantasies in the nonconsent stories are, for the most part, probably only make believe. (At least mine was.)
Isn't it a little odd that such an abundance of prime time TV is focused on murder. And they seem to try to come up with the most absurd scenarios. I get confused when I try to understand the reasoning that it is OK for children to think about murder. But it is not OK for children to think about sex.
...She puts plug back in mouth.

 

[Marquis]

Sometimes I wonder where exactley the line is between what we do and what "they" do

I hear about serial rapists in the news or watch movies about controlling men beating up their submissive wives and I often find myself pondering the same question. There are far too many similarities between the mentalities of these men and myself to deny.

I guess my answer is that common sense just ain't that common. I guess some people have these desires and just don't know what the fuck to do with them.

 

[TaintedB]

I hear ya.

It gets really creepy when you hear something about a person getting raped or tortured on the news. I dunno, that sort of thing still un-nerves me. Sometimes I wonder where exactley the line is between what we do and what "they" do

Do you sometimes get off a little on the news stories? Some people do and I don't think there's anything wrong with that--it doesn't make you the person who did the stuff, after all.

I can see how it must be harder for the sadists than for the sadees to accept their urges. I personally feel that my desire to experience torture is probably sublimated sadism directed at the only target my mind will allow: myself. It still gets me off just fine, but I never have to experience any associated guilt.

Marquis's question is an excellent one--and really tough to answer: whether people who actually rape people are any different than dominant-sadists, who sometimes (or even frequently) have the same urges but enact them in a more civilized fashion. My only answer to any of this is that people can--and do--imagine anything and everything in their minds, and we really cannot control where our imaginations lead us. So to me, the only thing that really matters is what someone actually ends up doing.

 

[DVS]

Marquis's question is an excellent one--and really tough to answer: whether people who actually rape people are any different than dominant-sadists, who sometimes (or even frequently) have the same urges but enact them in a more civilized fashion. My only answer to any of this is that people can--and do--imagine anything and everything in their minds, and we really cannot control where our imaginations lead us. So to me, the only thing that really matters is what someone actually ends up doing.

Rape is suppose to be an act of violence, and not related to sex at all. But, I wonder, sometimes. There are those who enjoy such violent sex as a normal thing in their lives. The lust for such activity and the lack of release for it might result in a rape, if the situation happened to make itself available.

 

[HawkEye38]

It seems that as much as we all love this and as much as we practice it in a sane consentual way, this is still a cross most of us bear. It's kind of sad when you think about it... we have sex ed classes so kids don't get scared of what's happening to thier bodies. Yet we don't have anything to help us deal with the guilt that goes along with what we do. In my opinion being scared because you think you're sick, evil, or going to become a rapist would be much more damaging than a 7th grader wondering why his dick gets hard when he sees a girl he likes... ::sigh:: I hate society.

 

[Killishandra]

I, for one, have always been perfectly happy and content with all of my urges.

Yup. No negative or confusing feelings here, folks!



Please ignore the man behind the curtain!

 

[YinandYang]

No feelings of guilt here either....although I did for a while try and tie it up with some childhood memory that I thought could exist somewhere in the depths of my mind. Never came up with anything though, just so happy to find my thing really. And even happier to find my opposite to share these things with

 

[laurel-marie]

I thought I was defective. I had no clue about BDSM just that I found certain things very much my button pushers.
The people I know make ultra consevatives look wild, so I had no one to talk to. It wasn't until I went online and found out I wasn't the only one who had these needs and it had a name...that was when i felt like I had permission to go with my wants.

 

[wolf2002]

Sometimes I wonder where exactley the line is between what we do and what "they" do

One word: consent... that is and should alsways be the limit...

 

[babiesmiles]

One word: consent... that is and should alsways be the limit...

I was going to post your exact word ... consent

 

[Killishandra]

I was going to post your exact word ... consent

Yes, but where does one draw the line for consent? Sometimes I desire to have non-consentual acts done to me. For some reason, sometimes I secretly desire things that serve me no purpose at all. Is it just my need to see His needs fulfilled? Am I giving consent indirectly?

I know what you guys mean by what you are saying... I guess I am just nitpicking. lol.

 

[Marquis]

Yes, but where does one draw the line for consent? Sometimes I desire to have non-consentual acts done to me. For some reason, sometimes I secretly desire things that serve me no purpose at all. Is it just my need to see His needs fulfilled? Am I giving consent indirectly?

I know what you guys mean by what you are saying... I guess I am just nitpicking. lol.

I agree with you, I think the line of consent is much blurrier than we'd like to admit.

 

[Killishandra]

Here's a funny thought...

I agree with you, I think the line of consent is much blurrier than we'd like to admit.

Maybe the line between a consentual sadist and a torturer or rapist lies not within Him/Herself but within the so-called victim.

If the victim is okay with what you did afterwards, you're just a safe and sane sadist.

If the victim hates you, you're a fucking rapist. Do not pass go, do not collect the $200 motherfucker.

I'll leave all you Doms to chew on that awhile.

 

[HawkEye38]

I agree with you, I think the line of consent is much blurrier than we'd like to admit.

Exactley, which is why it's good for us to get these issues out in the open. To experience them and see each other experience them.

If I'm getting nothing else out of this It is this. I am able to look around at this thread and say that our fears may be somewhat founded because there is so much we don't understand about ourselves in reguards to this topic. But I can also look around and realize that we're all here, bound by the same fear, but we're all sane and we all know when to call it quite, and we all know where to draw the line. I dunno, I just find that comforting.

 

[HawkEye38]

Maybe the line between a consentual sadist and a torturer or rapist lies not within Him/Herself but within the so-called victim.

If the victim is okay with what you did afterwards, you're just a safe and sane sadist.

If the victim hates you, you're a fucking rapist. Do not pass go, do not collect the $200 motherfucker.

I'll leave all you Doms to chew on that awhile.

Crystal clear logic

Except I think what we're yearning for is crystal clear logic for before the fact, not after...

Because if it's after the fact... it's too late...

 

[Marquis]

Maybe the line between a consentual sadist and a torturer or rapist lies not within Him/Herself but within the so-called victim.

If the victim is okay with what you did afterwards, you're just a safe and sane sadist.

If the victim hates you, you're a fucking rapist. Do not pass go, do not collect the $200 motherfucker.

I'll leave all you Doms to chew on that awhile.

I don't think I've ever been called a rapist (I certainly hope not ) but I've been called an abusive man by a woman whose slave contract I STILL have. Providing for many of the "abuses" she now tells her friends and family I subjected her to.

 

[DVS]

...Because if it's after the fact... it's too late...

Can you say on trial for date rape?

 

[HawkEye38]

Can you say on trial for date rape?

o o on ttttria... nope

 

[babiesmiles]

Can you say on trial for date rape?

If I understand well a rape fantasy or a planned rape is NOT the same of a date rape . As above said, consent is the line , you can even consent you won't give any consent to that person .. but it IS always a form of consensual "not consent " ..... maybe a bit hard to explane in court if the other player go bitchy , but always deeply different from a non consensual sexual act .

Hope my rambling had some logic ..lol

 

[DVS]

If I understand well a rape fantasy or a planned rape is NOT the same of a date rape . As above said, consent is the line , you can even consent you won't give any consent to that person .. but it IS always a form of consensual "not consent " ..... maybe a bit hard to explane in court if the other player go bitchy , but always deeply different from a non consensual sexual act .

Hope my rambling had some logic ..lol

What we're talking about is the line and how to define it. What is rape and what is play rape? Even if there is a line and you have talked it out with your partner, you could have problems, if she wants to cause them.

Sure, a planned play rape is consentual non consent, but as you have said, the submissive party can always go to the police and say it was NOT a planned rape and you end up in jail. No, they won't even listen to your side of the story until the court date, as it's a "no means no" situation and a domestic case where you are assumed to have gone past that point, as she can very well say you did. Then, your ass is grass.

What I meant by saying "can you say date rape?" was just that...
maybe she likes it rough. Maybe she likes it to be similar to the real thing. There is nobody on your side, if she decides to change her mind in the middle of your play acting.

There is no proof you both decided to do this, before hand, and her side will win, unless you have a very good (expensive) lawyer and can prove she is into play rape, rape fantasies, and BDSM...all which are most likely not something she has "outed" to the general public.

Even if it comes out you decided everything before hand, where's your proof you both decided on "Y" if she said she wanted only "X"? Think a jury will believe you, over her?

What I'm saying is, if you are into this sort of play, be sure you know your partner. Playing rape with someone you don't know, they could "go bitchy" and get you into the clink!

Well, I guess I'm a little bitchy tonight, I guess, huh? LOL. And, I'm not even ito play rape scenes. I am into stayng out of jail, though.

 

[TaintedB]

Theoretically, in the US, you are innocent until _proven_ guilty, and if you cannot prove that you didn't cross the line, that she was willing, then neither can she prove that you crossed the line, that she was unwilling, unless she has additional "circumstantial evidence" (photos of or witnessed bruises, for instance). And yes, I agree that if you're both doing a genuine enactment she's liable to have that evidence--if she thinks of pressing a case soon after the event. I know in practical terms this principle of justice is not being upheld in a lot of stranger rape cases, but in date rape, I believe the man still gets the strong benefit of the doubt. I hear just as many stories about the college frat boys who gangbanged a coed and severely injured her getting off scott free and her case being thrown out of court, particularly if said frat boys were valued members of the football team. Rape cases work both ways and I don't believe the outcome is certain as you are painting it, although admittedly it can seem like that at times.

The solution though, if you like or even need play rape, isn't to stay away from the thing entirely but rather to do what those submissives who care about their safety have had to do all along: don't play with somebody you do not trust. We have to trust somebody not to decide to do something genuinely horrific (cut off an arm or a leg, use a staple gun on us until we die from loss of blood, iron us like we were a shirt, that sort of thing) when you tie us up. So, if we are smart and place a value on life, we try to get to know you very well first before we come near you. Dominants quite clearly need to do the same thing with submissives they intend to play with (and obviously, some dominants already do this) even if their desires do not venture over into the play rape or other edgeplay scenarios, because a woman can call rape on you even if all you've done is spank her gently. And if she marks easily and your gentle spanking leaves evidence of assault on her skin, you ass could be grass in court.

Maybe women are less likely to call rape after a light evening of spanking and a little bondage, that I do not know for sure, but I do know from numeous encounters with the psycho types that that if someone rather crazed is going to flip, it can and will be about any little thing. Someone on the edge of doing something extremely irrational does not need a really big stimulus. Any little thing, something completely innoculous to others, even, can push them over the edge.

A case could be made for the idea that those woman who are passionately interested in play rape and actively seeking it know their own minds and are far less likely to turn on you than a submissive who doesn't make her interests clear, but of course you have to screen such people carefully. A certain number of such women are really self-destructive or nutcases, loose cannons who could do anything after the event. Screening people, however, isn't that hard to do if you have a good working knowledge of people in general and take your time. I guess it can be annoying and frustrating if you're the impatient sort, but there are ways to make it fun. Like I said above, the smart and careful submissives among us have been doing it to you dominants for years.

 

[Killishandra]

Excellent post, TB. Excellent advice as well!