Gun rights and social justice are not incompatible

[BotanyBoy]

Okay, since this detail is pissing me off because of the fantastic ignorance floating around, since Bot's the second person (and usually is sane) to bring this up. Lets have a history lesson kiddies Wolves, once upon a time were found throughout virtually the entire country, most of Canada and straight up into Alaska. Then because they pissed off farmers we systematically hunted them down until there were pretty much none left.

Then in the 90's we reintroduced them to Yellowstone National Park and while yes they have spread beyond it's borders but they are still concentrated in one fucking region of the country.

Red Wolves are labeled as Critically endangered.

I know asking any of you to read an entire book is asking a lot but you know 60 minutes on the fucking Discovery Channel will get you farther along than you appear to be.

Yea.....what about it are you so bent out of shape about?

 

[homewa]

Okay, since this detail is pissing me off because of the fantastic ignorance floating around, since Bot's the second person (and usually is sane) to bring this up. Lets have a history lesson kiddies Wolves, once upon a time were found throughout virtually the entire country, most of Canada and straight up into Alaska. Then because they pissed off farmers we systematically hunted them down until there were pretty much none left.

Then in the 90's we reintroduced them to Yellowstone National Park and while yes they have spread beyond it's borders but they are still concentrated in one fucking region of the country.

Red Wolves are labeled as Critically endangered.

I know asking any of you to read an entire book is asking a lot but you know 60 minutes on the fucking Discovery Channel will get you farther along than you appear to be.

Gray Wolves are the ones that were populous in the US... their status is... LEAST CONCERN. The reason that Red Wolves were doing so shittily isn't that farmers were hunting them but that that they could not compete with Gray Wolves who are for the record, not fucking endangered at all.

Also it was Gray Wolves who were reintroduced to Yellowstone.

You know I'm not asking you to look up all the facts before you make bullshit claims, but fucking at least do a cursory Google Seach

 

[BotanyBoy]

Ok I'm lost, wtf is going on? Did we just instantly go from guns may or may not be sensible if you don't live 200ft from de po-po and dangerous wildlife generally speaking avoids discussion

To a pissing contest over wolf territory???

 

[homewa]

Ok I'm lost, wtf is going on? Did we just instantly go from guns may or may not be sensible if you don't live 200ft from de po-po and dangerous wildlife generally speaking avoids discussion

To a pissing contest over wolf territory???

One of the claims in defense of gun ownership was that farmers needed guns to protect livestock. Mr. No Google, immediately claimed that Wolves and Bears were not a problem anymore. I presented him with evidence to the contrary initially, he later made the same claim again using a species of wolf that had already been driven out of it's range and was likely already suffering. That's why this is significant, because farmers do need to defend livestock, and you absofuckinglutely need guns to do that.

 

[BotanyBoy]

One of the claims in defense of gun ownership was that farmers needed guns to protect livestock. Mr. No Google, immediately claimed that Wolves and Bears were not a problem anymore. I presented him with evidence to the contrary initially, he later made the same claim again using a species of wolf that had already been driven out of it's range and was likely already suffering. That's why this is significant, because farmers do need to defend livestock, and you absofuckinglutely need guns to do that.

No you don't...that's silly as all fuck. 3x concertina wire will keep your livestock perfectly safe.

But a gun is without a doubt the most practical/economic methods....trying to wall up a 3,000 acre ranch just isn't a realistic option.

As far as just a wildlife threat? Not really an issue....though I do roll with a .45 when I hike about these mountains, ya never know.

 

[homewa]

No you don't...that's silly as all fuck. 3x concertina wire will keep your livestock perfectly safe.

But a gun is without a doubt the most practical/economic methods....trying to wall up a 3,000 acre ranch just isn't a realistic option.

Concertina kills horses... and most livestock if they get caught in it. You live in "hippieland" I live in the rural US, I have friends who are farmers who absolutely refuse to work with Concertina wire, because it's dangerous to their Livestock, and predators are probably bright enough to find ways around it, or tunnel under it, their good at that sort of thing. It's used on Cattle Ranches to keep them in, and it works, but it's not effective comparatively at keeping things that can dig or jump out.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Concertina kills horses... and most livestock if they get caught in it.

That's why you don't be a fucking retard and let them get in the shit.

You live in "hippieland" I live in the rural US,

You think because hippies live
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/3645503659_7d401e6299.jpg

It's not rural and subject to all the same wildlife that "rural US RANCHERS" live in? You think that fuckin' title makes you special and just more rugged than mountain folks?

"Ohhh I'm a rancher I'm the toughest shit on Earth! NOBODY is as rural as me!! Specially not no HIPPIE!!!"

LOL I know a lot of fat fucks who own farms/ranches who come up here and get their ass's straight fuckin' handed to them by these here mountains no different than some meto tech dweeb from SF so spare me the Marlboro man act.....

The nearest traffic light is almost 100 fucking miles away bub, nearest airport with anything bigger than a Cessna? 6 hrs out and the nearest road sign is 20. I assure you you there is plenty of rural living in the west coast mountain ranges. From NorCal allllllllllllllllll the way to Alaska....shit tons of hippies.

I have friends who are farmers who absolutely refuse to work with Concertina wire, because it's dangerous to their Livestock,

Your friends are morons.
http://www.swfence.com/images/livestock.jpg

You put a giant pile of C wire on one side and your animals on the other. Nothing gets in......not in one piece.

and predators are probably bright enough to find ways around it, or tunnel under it, their good at that sort of thing. It's used on Cattle Ranches to keep them in, and it works, but it's not effective comparatively at keeping things that can dig or jump out.

Denied....
http://www.nixonhire.co.uk/catalogue/images/cat_blackhoe_large.png

Sorry....but you can fence off a place and keep 99.9999999% of wildlife/livestock separated.

You can even put a minefield in....but you don't HAVE to have a gun to secure livestock.

 

[homewa]

That's why you don't be a fucking retard and let them get in the shit.



You think because hippies live
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/3645503659_7d401e6299.jpg

It's not rural and subject to all the same wildlife that "rural US RANCHERS" live in? You think that fuckin' title makes you special and just more rugged than mountain folks?

"Ohhh I'm a rancher I'm the toughest shit on Earth! NOBODY is as rural as me!! Specially not no HIPPIE!!!"

LOL I know a lot of fat fucks who own farms/ranches who come up here and get their ass's straight fuckin' handed to them by these here mountains no different than some meto tech dweeb from SF so spare me the Marlboro man act.....

The nearest traffic light is almost 100 fucking miles away bub and the nearest road sign is 20. I assure you you there is plenty of rural living in the west coast mountain ranges.



Your friends are morons.
http://www.swfence.com/images/livestock.jpg

You put a giant pile of C wire on one side and your animals on the other.



Denied....
http://www.nixonhire.co.uk/catalogue/images/cat_blackhoe_large.png

Sorry....but you can fence off a place and keep 99.9999999% of wildlife/livestock separated.

You can even put a minefield in....but you don't HAVE to have a gun to secure livestock.

So you're not a farmer, and you're using pictures... I can use pictures...

http://vichorse.com/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=473755&private=0

https://caudaequina.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/barbedwire.jpg?w=345&h=496

http://s143.photobucket.com/user/breanne_burtch/media/HVBW2.jpg.html



You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. You've never owned livestock, but that is why barbed wire is not a perfect defense.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Wolves are of least concern because of Canada and Alaska. Last I checked we don't do much farming in Alaska and we don't live in Canada making anything there irrelevant entirely. Both your maps and mine show where the Grey Wolf lives in the Continental United States and it has a quite limited range. Mr. No Google provided links the second time, I didn't the first time because I honestly didn't think it was necessary to explain that water is wet. I keep forgetting that I should never assume people weren't dropped down a flight of stairs as a child.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So you're not a farmer,

Yes I am. I have a pistachio orchard, berry farm, plus my own personal home gardens where I also keep my personal livestock.

and you're using pictures... I can use pictures...

Well....you're the one sitting here saying hippies aren't rural, and I'm tilling you the cascades/pacific mountain ranges say you're wrong wrong wrong.

Those pictures are irrelevant to the point.

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

What? That there are no rural hippies or that C wire is effective as hell at securing boarders/fencing?

Because I'm pretty sure I'm right about both...

You've never owned livestock, but that is why barbed wire is not a perfect defense.

Ohh who's all presumptuous as fuck now....so now horses, chickens, goats and pigs don't count as livestock? You should call the USDA and every aggie program in the country and tell them all they are wrong.

You're just pissed because you know I'm right when I say you don't NEED a gun to secure livestock. It's the easiest/cheapest ways....not even all that effective unless you just happen to be right there when predation happens. A bitchin military spec security fence? LOL ain't no fuckin wolves getting in there....

 

[homewa]

Wolves are of least concern because of Canada and Alaska. Last I checked we don't do much farming in Alaska and we don't live in Canada making anything there irrelevant entirely. Both your maps and mine show where the Grey Wolf lives in the Continental United States and it has a quite limited range. Mr. No Google provided links the second time, I didn't the first time because I honestly didn't think it was necessary to explain that water is wet. I keep forgetting that I should never assume people weren't dropped down a flight of stairs as a child.

You misrepresented data, and lied. You claimed (through implication) that since Red Wolves are critically endangered wolves are not a problem to livestock. There are livestock owners in Montana...
Fuck I live in PA, my family doesn't own livestock, we owned bees, and we've lost those to bears. There are reasons to own a gun. Fuck I haven't even gotten into people getting mauled by bears, or small children. If you live in the boonies a gun is a necessity. Yeah a Lynx or a Coyote won't kill an adult, but it'll sure as fuck murder a three year old.'

Yes I am. I have a pistachio orchard, berry farm, plus my own personal home gardens where I also keep my personal livestock.

What kind of livestock?

Well....you're the one sitting here saying hippies aren't rural, and I'm tilling you the cascades/pacific mountain ranges say you're wrong wrong wrong.

Those pictures are irrelevant to the point.

They're injuries caused to livestock by barbed wire, which is proof that this happens.

What? That there are no rural hippies or that C wire is effective as hell at securing boarders/fencing?

Because I'm pretty sure I'm right about both...

You aren't.

Ohh who's all presumptuous as fuck now....so now horses, chickens, goats and pigs don't count as livestock? You should call the USDA and every aggie program in the country and tell them all they are wrong.

You're just pissed because you know I'm right when I say you don't NEED a gun to secure livestock.

I've never known a farmer who didn't own a gun, and most of the farmers I know have used it to protect their livestock.

 

[BotanyBoy]

What kind of livestock?

Pigs, chickens, fish, horses, cows, goats. All the shit I like to eat and not pay asshole pricing for.....oh and don't forget thanksgiving/Christmas. Always get a couple turkeys in there. mmmm....deep fried bird.....

They're injuries caused to livestock by barbed wire, which is proof that this happens.

Right but that wasn't the argument. The argument is that it keeps shit out/in....and it does a great job of it.

You aren't.

Oh I am.....hippies from Humboldt CA to Homer AK....all up in the mountains. Rural as fuck.

Sorry to burst your bubble but hippies aren't confined to San Francisco.

And if C wire wasn't good then why is the gold fuckin' standard in border security world fuckin wide?

Sorry...you're wrong, you don't NEED a gun to secure livestock.....put the big girl panties on and own it.

I've never known a farmer who didn't own a gun, and most of the farmers I know have used it to protect their livestock.

Come out to CA....got fuck tons of them...hell even most of the pot farmers out here don't have a gun, got 5 million dollars growing in their back yards.

 

[homewa]

Pigs, chickens, fish, horses, cows, goats.

Do you own a gun?

Right but that wasn't the argument. The argument is that it keeps shit out.

That was the fucking argument, that it keeps some shit out, but that it injures your livestock, a gun doesn't injure your livestock and can protect them... So shit kept out and livestock mutilated, or shit kept out and livestock uninjured, you're the farmer, you tell me which is better.

Oh I am.....hippies from Humboldt CA to Homer AK....all up in the mountains. Rural as fuck.

Sorry to burst your bubble but hippies aren't confined to San Francisco.

And if C wire wasn't good then why is the gold fuckin' standard in border security world fuckin wide?

Sorry...you're wrong, put the big girl panties on and own it.
.

Razor wire is what they use on the border... And on the border you don't care about livestock dying as a result. I've a lot more experience than you at crossing barbed wire. Not only was I in the military, but I've had jobs where I've had to cross people's land to examine utilities... If I, an overweight dude can get around any barbed wire fence (and any electrical fence) I have encountered, a canny predator sure as shit can.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Do you own a gun?

Quite an assortment.

That was the fucking argument, that it keeps some shit out,

Most if not all shit.

but that it injures your livestock,

No...it doesn't have to and that is the bullshit lie you keep trying to interject because you REALLY want guns to be NECESSARY to secure livestock when you know they aren't.

a gun doesn't injure your livestock

That's a pure lie and you know it....ranchers aren't always 100% on target.

and can protect them...

CAN, rarely does though...like I said you have to be standing there when predation occurs, more often than not you find more than 1 carcass before you find out who's gnawing on your herd.

Jeez and you say I'm no farmer LOL who are you trying to sell these lies to me or yourself?

So shit kept out and livestock mutilated, or shit kept out and livestock uninjured, you're the farmer, you tell me which is better.

Your livestock doesn't have to be mutilated...you just can't let them get into the shit, they make other non destructive fencing you can put in between the two ya know??

Like my electric fence....I don't let my animals get popped by it, there's a 15ft fence between them and the electricity that has done a great job at keeping bears, lions and foxes out.

Razor wire is what they use on the border... And on the border you don't care about livestock dying as a result. I've a lot more experience than you at crossing barbed wire. Not only was I in the military,

Yea I spent almost 10 years in the Infantry.....so having a lot more experience than me at Battle Drill 8 is rather slim. Go memorize the 7-8 and get back to me.

but I've had jobs where I've had to cross people's land to examine utilities... If I, an overweight dude can get around any barbed wire fence (and any electrical fence) I have encountered, a canny predator sure as shit can.

Then how come in all the years and all the bears around here none of them made it past mine?

And I didn't say barbed wire I said 3x C wire.....which your fat POG ass ain't getting past.

 

[homewa]

Yea I spent almost 10 years in the Infantry.....so having a lot more experience than me at Battle Drill 8 is rather slim. Go memorize the 7-8 and get back to me.

Attacking a mined obstacle, what does that have to do with anything? I mean I guess if you're mining your C-Wire it would definitely keep anything out. Also the combat drills don't simulate what we're discussing... They prioritize speed as you know, they're for combat. If you have half an hour to get around the obstacle, it gets easier. And a predator has literally hours to dig under any obstacle. I mean Battle Drill 8 involves contact, so that's under fire, buddy, the predator isn't under fire, because you've taken away the guns.

Then how come in all the years and all the bears around here none of them made it past mine?

And I didn't say barbed wire I said 3x C wire.....which your fat POG ass ain't getting past.

I've gotten over 3x C-Wire, we have to do that in Boot, it's not difficult if you're patient and you work at it. I mean you'll tear the shit out of your clothes, but you'll get around it.

Do you know any farmers who don't own a weapon. I bet you fucking don't.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Attacking a mined obstacle, what does that have to do with anything?

You must have not run that battle drill then because if you had you would know.

I mean I guess if you're mining your C-Wire it would definitely keep anything out.

You can bury it too...still keep anything out.

Also the combat drills don't simulate what we're discussing... They prioritize speed as you know, they're for combat. If you have half an hour to get around the obstacle, it gets easier.

No it doesn't...only with the right tools, like Comp 4.

And a predator has literally hours to dig under any obstacle.

Denied.
http://resource.liugong.cn/images/1339490397583.jpg

I mean Battle Drill 8 involves contact, so that's under fire, buddy, the predator isn't under fire, because you've taken away the guns.

I didn't say anything about taking away guns you RW gun nut.

I said you don't NEED a gun to secure your livestock and you don't.

I've gotten over 3x C-Wire, we have to do that in Boot, it's not difficult if you're patient and you work at it. I mean you'll tear the shit out of your clothes, but you'll get around it.

I don't believe you. Sean does the USMC make recruits raw dog 3x C wire? They don't even do that in Ranger school or BUDS.....that's not training that's torture and endangerment of government property. They give you tools when you go to breach a wire. Or you don't breach the wire, you get shredded to shit.

Do you know any farmers who don't own a weapon. I bet you fucking don't.

I bet I know a bunch....my neighbor (several miles down the road) is hugely against guns and gun ownership as are a great many on the west coast. Been farming his family homestead his whole life like 5 generations in at this point.

 

[homewa]

You must have not run that battle drill then because if you had you would know.

Eh, I just read it, it's a mining drill under fire. It's fucking even remotely comparable.

No it doesn't...only with the right tools, like Comp 4.

Or gloves... gloves would do it, a tree falling on the wire would do it... I've removed RAZOR WIRE (Not fucking C-Wire, actual Razor Wire, like the real shit) with gloves.

I didn't say anything about taking away guns you RW gun nut.

I said you don't NEED a gun to secure your livestock and you don't.

And my argument was the benefits of having a gun to protect your livestock and home outweigh the drawbacks of gun ownership.

I'm not right wing, not even close. If you'll read what I posted earlier, I'm pro-transparency and pro doing things the right way. If they want to get rid of guns, amend the constitution. Hell I wouldn't care if they did that, because that's what they're supposed to do. It's doing backdoor bullshit that bothers me.

I'm actually mostly liberal with almost every issue EXCEPT gun ownership and a couple others.

I don't believe you. Sean does the USMC make recruits raw dog 3x C wire? They don't even do that in Ranger school or BUDS.....that's not training that's torture and endangerment of government property. They give you tools when you go to breach a wire. Or you don't breach the wire, you get shredded to shit.

You crawl under the fucking wire, pushing it up with your rifle it isn't fucking hard to do, you tear the shit out of your Cammies though. You do that in Boot Camp and in MCT. And in Fallujah, I removed Razor Wire, and C-wire from installations as part of a working party, it isn't as difficult to get around as you pretend.

I bet I know a bunch....my neighbor (several miles down the road) is hugely against guns and gun ownership as are a great many on the west coast. Been farming his family homestead his whole life like 5 generations in at this point.

And do you live someplace with bears, I do. I imagine you have Coyotes, and I imagine your neighbor loses chickens and livestock every year to racoons (who can certainly get over C-Wire), coyotes, Hawks (again no problem with C-Wire), Bobcats (who can jump over that shit, unless you've got like an 8 foot fence, which is cost prohibitive), regular wildcats, Eagles (possibly). And they're probably okay with it, you lose some livestock, but it's fine for a farmer not to be okay with losing livestock.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Eh, I just read it, it's a mining drill under fire. It's fucking even remotely comparable.

Go back and read again....

Or gloves... gloves would do it, a tree falling on the wire would do it... I've removed RAZOR WIRE (Not fucking C-Wire, actual Razor Wire, like the real shit) with gloves.

Yea do animals wear gloves??

And my argument was the benefits of having a gun to protect your livestock and home outweigh the drawbacks of gun ownership.

No that was just your opinion....you can't actually argue that point because all the facts say otherwise. The only real argument you have for gun ownership is that you like guns.

I'm not right wing, not even close. If you'll read what I posted earlier, I'm pro-transparency and pro doing things the right way.

Which is of course YOUR way.

If they want to get rid of guns, amend the constitution.

I don't think anyone has legitimately ever proposed getting ride of guns.....that's just the knee jerk reaction of the RW to the very idea that maybe we should do a better job of at least asking who the fuck these people buying guns are.

Hell I wouldn't care if they did that, because that's what they're supposed to do. It's doing backdoor bullshit that bothers me.

What backdoor bullshit?

I'm actually mostly liberal with almost every issue EXCEPT gun ownership and a couple others.

Uh hua.....

You crawl under the fucking wire, pushing it up with your rifle it isn't fucking hard to do, you tear the shit out of your Cammies though. You do that in Boot Camp and in MCT. And in Fallujah, I removed Razor Wire, and C-wire from installations as part of a working party, it isn't as difficult to get around as you pretend.

Oh that stuff that's already like 12" up? Yea that's not the case and animals don't have rifles to push the shit back with. Wild animals do not do well against c wire.

And do you live someplace with bears, I do.

Yep....we also have lions out here, you don't Mr.Marlboro rancher tough shit.

I imagine you have Coyotes, and I imagine your neighbor loses chickens and livestock every year to racoons (who can certainly get over C-Wire), coyotes,

Nah...don't really see much of those two around here. In fact they say they are here but I've never seen either.

Hawks (again no problem with C-Wire), Bobcats (who can jump over that shit, unless you've got like an 8 foot fence, which is cost prohibitive),

Oh yea we have cats, hawks, Eagles. Cat's don't fuck with me but the birds are an issue.

Got a 12 ft fence actually with 4' of hardware cloth underneath it, all bound up with electrified wire. I never said a bitchin' fence would be cost effective......but it would be effective, far better than a gun.

regular wildcats, Eagles (possibly). And they're probably okay with it, you lose some livestock, but it's fine for a farmer not to be okay with losing livestock.

Eagles definitely.

Anyone who cultivates anything has losses.

It is, but none of this makes a gun necessary to secure your livestock....which unless you live with your livestock 24/7 are pretty fuckin' lame at the job.

 

[homewa]

Go back and read again....

Yes... I read the wire removal bit, removing potentially mined wire, whilst under fire is so completely fucking the scenario we're discussing as to be irrelevant. Especially given that you are aiming for speed whilst doing it. It's the difference between Golfing and Golfing on the moon, where if you lose you die, and you have only twenty minutes to do it.

Yea do animals wear gloves??

They can still get around your fences.

No that was just your opinion....you can't actually argue that point because all the facts say otherwise. The only real argument you have for gun ownership is that you like guns.

My argument is that the Supreme Court has ruled that the Constitution's 2nd Amendment refers to personal ownership of firearms, that makes it a right. I actually think that we should have active militia groups and that people with training should have them. I think we should have large groups of reservists that do regular training. I am not for general gun ownership without restrictions.

HOWEVER... I am against diluting rights, any rights without going through the proper procedures, since that inevitably will lead to other rights being diluted.

Which is of course YOUR way.

It can be. I've been wrong about things before though, and occasionally I've done things that I knew to be wrong. So I wouldn't say my way is the "right way" but that I am for it.

I don't think anyone has legitimately ever proposed getting ride of guns.....that's just the knee jerk reaction of the RW to the very idea that maybe we should do a better job of at least asking who the fuck these people buying guns are.

I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to others who had claimed that somebody who had shot an unknown intruder with unknown intentions was a murderer and I commented that one could be pro social justice and still pro gun rights. In fact since they are defined as a right we should not be unduly restricting it.

What backdoor bullshit?

Using Executive Orders and sneaky legislation to get around the Constitution. Both parties have been doing this with alarmingly increasing frequency, and it's not just 2nd Amendment rights that they've done this sort of thing to. Look at kids who have been jailed for making "terrorist threats" while playing video games, who did nothing of the kind, we have our rights being diluted, and we don't even notice, by both the right and the left.

Oh that stuff that's already like 12" up? Yea that's not the case and animals don't have rifles to push the shit back with. Wild animals do not do well against c wire.

It's not fucking 12" up, unless you went to a very different boot camp than I did, it's about 3 or 4" if it was 12" up you wouldn't need the rifle you could just shimmy under it. The shorter stuff you use a buddy. An animal could dig under it. Also I wasn't saying that it was largely ineffective at preventing attack, I was saying that the results of having it are more dangerous to your livestock than not in many cases, depending on what livestock you own, and where you are. In someplace like Pennsylvania, the ground is all soft shale shit, fences move about, leaving C wire around after rain storms, animals then get cut up on it. There's a reason Barbed Wire was invented in a hot dry climate without much mud or muck or overgrowth. Because overgrowth makes it ineffective and mud and muck makes it dangerous.

Yep....we also have lions out here, you don't Mr.Marlboro rancher tough shit.

True, and that's an argument for having guns to protect your family from mountain lions, who will definitely attack small children, no?

Nah...don't really see much of those two around here. In fact they say they are here but I've never seen either.

Well then you have no idea how fucking awful and clever they are. You might not need guns as much, but people around coyotes certainly might. People around Racoons with livestock, absolutely (especially chickens) the fuckers can open doors, climb, I hate them with a burning passion.

Oh yea we have cats, hawks, Eagles. Cat's don't fuck with me but the birds are an issue.

Got a 12 ft fence actually, and I never said a bitchin' fence would be cost effective......but it would be effective, far better than a gun.

Well you don't have that much land then relatively, I imagine. And a gun is cheap, a gun, and dogs you can guard a lot of land with that.

Eagles definitely.

Anyone who cultivates anything has losses.

It is, but none of this makes a gun necessary to secure your livestock....which unless you live with your livestock 24/7 are pretty fuckin' lame at the job.

You don't have to stay up and watch your livestock, your dogs usually are what you use to let you know, or guard livestock, a Jinny'd do, for example, it doesn't matter if you're 1/4 mile away you'll hear that Jinny if she sees anything she don't like.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yes... I read the wire removal bit, removing potentially mined wire, whilst under fire is so completely fucking the scenario we're discussing as to be irrelevant. Especially given that you are aiming for speed whilst doing it. It's the difference between Golfing and Golfing on the moon, where if you lose you die, and you have only twenty minutes to do it.

No you said your MILITARY experience meant you knew more about it than me....but I'm willing to bet you weren't even a fuckin' ground pounder were you? You prob did that bitch ONCE in boot.

They can still get around your fences.

Maybe at some point some critters will but as of now it's just the raptors I worry about. Acceptable risk/loss...

HOWEVER... I am against diluting rights, any rights without going through the proper procedures, since that inevitably will lead to other rights being diluted.

All rights have been diluted since the beginning, it's just a matter to what extent.

You can't yell fire in a theater for kicks, you can't own an A-10 Warthog fully armed and cops haven't had to have a warrant since forever. Give them a good enough reason and they can barge in on your shit legally.

No rights are absolute, 2A should not be absolute.

I commented that one could be pro social justice and still pro gun rights. In fact since they are defined as a right we should not be unduly restricting it.

MMmmhmm....and what undue restrictions are we talking about? licencing, training and psyche/proficiency exams?

Using Executive Orders and sneaky legislation to get around the Constitution. Both parties have been doing this with alarmingly increasing frequency, and it's not just 2nd Amendment rights that they've done this sort of thing to.

There has been no such thing and if there were it's the job of the SCOTUS to stop it.

But there has been no sneaky legislation or Executive Orders used to get around the constitution. It's all been open and it's all been legal.

Look at kids who have been jailed for making "terrorist threats" while playing video games, who did nothing of the kind, we have our rights being diluted, and we don't even notice, by both the right and the left.

PATRIOT Act....totally legal.

It's not fucking 12" up, unless you went to a very different boot camp than I did, it's about 3 or 4" if it was 12" up you wouldn't need the rifle you could just shimmy under it.

I never went to boot camp.....

True, and that's an argument for having guns to protect your family from mountain lions, who will definitely attack small children, no?

Happened to a 6 y/o boy just a few weeks ago....gun didn't do shit.

Sorry but they just aren't the end all be all security measure you think they are.

Well then you have no idea how fucking awful and clever they are. You might not need guns as much, but people around coyotes certainly might. People around Racoons with livestock, absolutely (especially chickens) the fuckers can open doors, climb, I hate them with a burning passion.

Lived in the SW/SE for years I know how devious the shits are.

And guns don't help most of them as evident by your tone.....they get in and kill shit, snatch your eggs, rip birds heads off the works, only thing worse is an opossum.

But you usually lose a few before you can kill the little fuckers with a gun and as soon as you handle one another is right there taking it's place.

Put up a decent fence and you'll rarely lose any if ever....I'm going on almost 3 years without a single loss.

Well you don't have that much land then relatively, I imagine. And a gun is cheap, a gun, and dogs you can guard a lot of land with that.

You'd imagine wrong...got 643.7 acres but I've only fenced off a few b/c that's all I need. I have a 250lb cat living in my back yard, ain't no dog guarding shit. All of MY critters have to be put up at night. He's clever and very cautious about people....but he don't give 2 pumps of rat shit about really any other critters. Everything but adult human is on their menu and even then.....maybe....if you were gimping along and he thinks he could take you, just might. Absolute apex predator no doubt...

You don't have to stay up and watch your livestock, your dogs usually are what you use to let you know, or guard livestock, a Jinny'd do, for example, it doesn't matter if you're 1/4 mile away you'll hear that Jinny if she sees anything she don't like.

Yeas and by the time you get there wamp wamp waaaaaaaaaa....and THEN you get up and wait for the fucker so you can pop the lil shit.

With proper preventative security the shit just rarely if ever happens.

You might WANT a gun to secure your shit, it might be the cheapest option, but like I said from anything other than humans with opposable thumbs and tools to break into your shit and steal your animals/crops it's really not needed nor the most effective method.

 

[homewa]

No you said your MILITARY experience meant you knew more about it than me....but I'm willing to bet you weren't even a fuckin' ground pounder were you? You prob did that bitch ONCE in boot.

And when I worked in a job where I had to cross people's land to check utilities, I did that shit every fucking day, with every fucking idiot kind of fence you might find. I've been through every fence.

MMmmhmm....and what undue restrictions are we talking about? licencing, training and psyche/proficiency exams?

Personally, if it were me, I would say that to have a gun you'd have to be part of a reserve military force, and then have most people be in that, they'd train, probably pay dues, and they'd make sure that people who own guns are competent, and they'd catch people who are starting to slip mentally to where they shouldn't (well some of them)

However... Because the Supreme Court has ruled the other way, I'm opposed to that idea, as it stands, without some alteration in ruling. The rule of law is very important, circumventing it is always bad.

There has been no such thing and if there were it's the job of the SCOTUS to stop it.

Yes and when they hear a case about 30 years from now, then they might. Or interest will have dwindled on that matter. The Supreme Court doesn't hear many cases and a very select few cases are fast tracked. Most things take inordinate amounts of time. So you can pass an unconstitutional law and gamble that nobody'll notice it. But they do.

But there has been no sneaky legislation or Executive Orders used to get around the constitution. It's all been open and it's all been legal.

There certainly have been executive orders restricting to whom firearms can be sold. In fact that was a fairly recent thing (within the past five years). That's a restriction on a right, from somebody who shouldn't be doing it. But because it was never called out, it goes by unnoticed.

PATRIOT Act....totally legal.

It shouldn't have been, and I don't believe it was. The Supreme Court has questioned MANY of it's provisos, and not always to it's benefit, but they don't look at individual laws, they look at how those laws are enforced, and the effects of the laws. So they didn't strike down the whole thing, but they're reactive, no proactive, so just because they didn't strike something down doesn't mean it's constitutional.

Happened to a 6 y/o boy just a few weeks ago....gun didn't do shit.

Sorry but they just aren't the end all be all security measure you think they are.

There was an armed person there with the the kid? Was the kid armed? I doubt it. I didn't say guns fix all problems, or even claim they were an end-all be all, only that they were necessary for certain things, self-protection from animals having guns certainly helps. I'd much rather deal with a momma black bear if I have a gun than if I don't.

Lived in the SW/SE for years I know how devious the shits are.

And guns don't help most of them as evident by your tone.....they get in and kill shit, snatch your eggs, rip birds heads off the works, only thing worse is an opossum.

But you usually lose a few before you can kill the little fuckers with a gun and as soon as you handle one another is right there taking it's place.

Put up a decent fence and you'll rarely lose any if ever....I'm going on almost 3 years without a single loss.

Where you have no racoons, and no coyotes, you don't have the sneaky bastards that get in there. Now for racoons a dog is probably better than a gun, but having a gun is a damn good thing to in that case.

You'd imagine wrong...got 643.7 acres but I've only fenced off a few b/c that's all I need. I have a 250lb cat living in my back yard, ain't no dog guarding shit. Not even a pack of them. He's clever and very cautious about people....but he don't give 2 pumps of rat shit about really any other critters.

So you live where you haven't got any of the animals I talked about. Bear won't really bother your livestock much either, but a momma will certainly fuck you up, if you don't have a means of defense.

Yeas and by the time you get there wamp wamp waaaaaaaaaa....and THEN you get up and wait for the fucker so you can pop the lil shit.

With proper preventative security the shit just rarely if ever happens.

You might WANT a gun to secure your shit, it might be the cheapest option, but like I said from anything other than humans with opposable thumbs and tools to break into your shit and steal your animals/crops it's really not needed nor the most effective method.

You've already said that you don't live where animals who are good at getting around fences do. I do. I know farmers who have lost livestock to barbed wire fences, or had to pay thousands in vet bills, and that's just barbed wire, that's not even concertina wire. You haven't addressed that point at all, you've fucking ignored it, over, and over, and over again. Most small farmers can't afford a ten grand vet bill on a twenty grand horse... So that's twenty grand (or more) potentially down the tubes.

 

[BotanyBoy]

There certainly have been executive orders restricting to whom firearms can be sold.

Cite?

It shouldn't have been

But it was..

There was an armed person there with the the kid?

Yep didn't save him...it was over so fast the guy never even got to pull it out and poof, gone. Not a fucking thing he could do about it either.

So you live where you haven't got any of the animals I talked about.

No I have most of them, just not coons or coyotes.

Bear won't really bother your livestock much either, but a momma will certainly fuck you up, if you don't have a means of defense

They will trash your crops in a hurry though. I depend on my crops, same difference.

You've already said that you don't live where animals who are good at getting around fences do.

I assure you a bear is far better at getting around a fence than a fuckin' coon.

I do. I know farmers who have lost livestock to barbed wire fences, or had to pay thousands in vet bills, and that's just barbed wire, that's not even concertina wire.

Their own fault....they should take a lil personal responsibility for it.

You haven't addressed that point at all, you've fucking ignored it, over, and over, and over again.

Because it's irrelevant to the fact that you don't NEED a gun to secure your livestock from the vast vast majority of predation.

Most small farmers can't afford a ten grand vet bill on a twenty grand horse... So that's twenty grand (or more) potentially down the tubes.

If they spent the ten grand on a better fence before they got their 20 thousand dollar horse it wouldn't be a problem now would it??

Don't buy a Ferrari if you can't afford the tires, brakes and oil changes bub....

 

[homewa]

Cite?

http://insider.foxnews.com/2013/01/16/read-full-list-of-23-gun-violence-reduction-executive-actions

Yeah its from Fox, but it's still legit, you can find the exec orders as well, just here they're in a list.

But it was..

Just because something was done, and nobody got punished, absofuckinglutely does not mean that the thing was legal.

Yep didn't save him...it was over so fast the guy never even got to pull it out and poof, gone. Not a fucking thing he could do about it either.

Shit happens...

They will trash your crops in a hurry though. I depend on my crops, same difference.

Yep, kill your bees too, we lost bees to a bear, it was a travesty. And I'd approve of you shooting the bear to protect your crops.

I assure you a bear is far better at getting around a fence than a fuckin' coon.

I didn't say otherwise, I said "bears aren't likely to bother livestock," and they aren't. Yeah they could get around the fence, but they probably wouldn't. A coon can also get around the fence to your chickens, and they absolutely would.

Their own fault....they should take a lil personal responsibility for it.

They did, they paid the vet bills, and tore up the fences afterward, so now to defend their livestock without losing potentially thousands of dollars they need something... some other means of defending them.

Because it's irrelevant to the fact that you don't NEED a gun to secure your livestock from the vast vast majority of predation.

It is fucking 100% relevant. You either buy a fence so expensive that no working farmer could possibly afford it, that might kill your livestock, or you drop a grand and get a decent weapon.

If they spent the ten grand on a better fence before they got their 20 thousand dollar horse it wouldn't be a problem now would it??

Don't buy a Ferrari if you can't afford the tires, brakes and oil changes bub....

Most of the fucking farmers I know, aren't rich, they aren't hippies who moved out to the country. They make a living doing that. If your car breaks and you use it to get to work, for most people, it's tough cookies, if a farmer is depending on an animal, and it gets hurt, then it will fuck their income for the rest of the time. You're tossing away another 30,000 dollars of somebody elses' money pretty quick there bud, and you're forgetting that they have other expenses.

Fences for example are horrendously expensive not because of installation, but because of maintenance. Especially out here for the reasons I outlined, and you ignored.

Edit: Also the expensive horse wasn't that expensive initially it became expensive because of training and work put into it. There are plenty of horses MUCH MUCH more expensive than that one for the same reason. Hell my friends owned one that was probably worth 50 or 60 grand at one point, which is of course why they wouldn't want to keep said fence.

 

[BotanyBoy]

http://insider.foxnews.com/2013/01/16/read-full-list-of-23-gun-violence-reduction-executive-actions

Yeah its from Fox, but it's still legit, you can find the exec orders as well, just here they're in a list.

Nothing in there restricts gun ownership....sorry....you're a gun loon.

Just because something was done, and nobody got punished, absofuckinglutely does not mean that the thing was legal.

No, legislation passing both houses of congress and signed by POTUS means it's legal till SCOTUS says otherwise. Sorry as bad as it was PATRIOT act was legit....

Yep, kill your bees too, we lost bees to a bear, it was a travesty. And I'd approve of you shooting the bear to protect your crops.

Shoothing the bear doesn't protect my crops....might put a few hundred pounds of meat in the freezer but it doesn't protect the crops.

Unless you just HAPPEN to be there when Yogi and boo boo break the fence down and they don't run at a warning shot....you're not defending anything by shooting the bear. You're just an asshole.

They did, they paid the vet bills, and tore up the fences afterward, so now to defend their livestock without losing potentially thousands of dollars they need something... some other means of defending them.

How about not a shitty fence....

It is fucking 100% relevant. You either buy a fence so expensive that no working farmer could possibly afford it, that might kill your livestock, or you drop a grand and get a decent weapon.

No it's not...fact still stands you can build a fortress around a ranch and do a fucking hell of a job protecting livestock far better than any buffoon with a rifle could ever hope to and not use a single gun doing it.

Guns are not a security requirement....no matter how badly you want them to be.

Most of the fucking farmers I know, aren't rich, they aren't hippies who moved out to the country.

LOL you just can't get over the fact that the entire west coast extends beyond L.A. /S.F. can you?

They make a living doing that. If your car breaks and you use it to get to work, for most people, it's tough cookies, if a farmer is depending on an animal, and it gets hurt, then it will fuck their income for the rest of the time. You're tossing away another 30,000 dollars of somebody elses' money pretty quick there bud, and you're forgetting that they have other expenses.

Oh yea I just run orchards and grow fuck tons of food because shitz n' giggles....LOL

I make a living doing it too day day.

I'm not throwing anyone's money away, I built a bad ass fence to thwart as much of mother nature as I could that doesn't endanger my critters. And it kicks ass, despite several valiant efforts from yogi and co. to come in and eat all my berries, herbs, tubers and veggies every one of them gave up. I produced top notch berries and I get paid top dollar for them.

Fences for example are horrendously expensive not because of installation, but because of maintenance. Especially out here for the reasons I outlined, and you ignored.

Because it's not relevant. Gun's are not needed nor are they the best security measure...

Edit: Also the expensive horse wasn't that expensive initially it became expensive because of training and work put into it. There are plenty of horses MUCH MUCH more expensive than that one for the same reason. Hell my friends owned one that was probably worth 50 or 60 grand at one point, which is of course why they wouldn't want to keep said fence.

No shit....it's a wonder with animals like that and such a problem of predation they don't build them better facilities to secure them.

Mine were by comparison cheap....I just had to feed the poor fuckin' things, put some quality time in and they come in at night, behind ye wall of fortress de herb shack.

 

[I_jerk_off_alot]

A correction to my story about my Grandfather.

So I checked just to be sure I had the right information about what happened with my Grandfather.

The Peeping Tom was a well known Peeper. Several women in the area were his victims. Many of them kept guns just to scare him off. Apparently he would go the window of homes where he knew the women were alone and taunt them openly. This went on for a long time.

Then he came to my Grandparents house. He started taunting my Grandmother. She woke up my Grandfather who went and got his gun and PUT IT TOGETHER. He didn't even have it assembled. Told my Grandmother to go into the bed room.

The guy went to their window and tried to climb in after her. That's when he got shot. Climbing in the window.

My Grandfather was arrested and spent the night in jail while the police investigated. After talking to the neighbors, they realized he was right and released him.

Long story short form. Peeping Toms do deserve to get shot, especially when they try to crawl into my Grandmother's window.