Hey, gun nuts!

[Ishmael]

Someone at work mention that they were something like a box of ten for $100.00 US.

The military or some of our clandestine organizations probably have had them for a while.

They are made by these people. https://bearingarms.com/jenn-j/2017...s-the-bullet-cam-exclusively-for-april-fools/

So they are probably fairly accurate...

Dbl ended wad cutters are 'accurate.' They just have ballistic coefficients approaching zero. Most projectiles with flat noses do.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Getting into the technical end of it.

We'll start with two bullets and shoot them from a 30-06 at 2500 fps. One will be a 220 gr. round nose, the other a 220 gr. full metal jacket. The rifle will be zeroed at 100 yds.

they both started at 2500 fps but at 100 yds the round nose (RN) will be flying at 2122 fps, while the full metal jacket (FMJ) will be flying at 2186 fps.

At 200 yds the RN will be flying at 1631 fps while the FMJ is hitting 1900 fps. The energy levels are 1558 Ft. Lbs for the RN and 1764 for the FMJ.

At 400; RN 1245* fps and 758 ft lbs. The FMJ is 1413 fps and 976 ft lbs.

Beyond 400 yds the differences grow exponentially. The (*) denotes the trans-sonic region. Depending on altitude, barometric pressure, temp, etc. this is approximately 1200 fps. In this trans-sonic region the bullet becomes ballistically unstable and the degree to which it will wander off the sight axis is unpredictable. After passing through the trans-sonic region it will settle down again, but where it will strike is anyone's guess.

The only difference between the two bullets in this example is the ballistic coefficient (BC). The BC of the FMJ is higher than the RN. The BC of that 'TV' bullet is going to be worse that that of the RN just based on form factor. So, depending on caliber and muzzle velocity it will be accurate out to 300 yds or so. But it's flight path will have nothing in common with a reliable hunting load. So as Perg. asked, what the hell is it good for beyond posting to YouTube?

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Thanks for corroborating my gut instinct. Every now and then I can smell bullshit when it's right under my nose.

 

[Ishmael]

Thanks for corroborating my gut instinct. Every now and then I can smell bullshit when it's right under my nose.

Oh, they'll make money. And as FGB implied some asshole is going to make a name for themselves with it. Beyond 'dick' measuring I can see no useful purpose.

BTW Hornady, who is part of this project, makes a 225 gr 30 cal. with a BC of .777. (The BC of that FMJ referenced in my technical crap is .271.) Launched from my 300 WinMag at 3000 fps it's still supersonic at 2 miles.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Oh, they'll make money. And as FGB implied some asshole is going to make a name for themselves with it. Beyond 'dick' measuring I can see no useful purpose.

BTW Hornady, who is part of this project, makes a 225 gr 30 cal. with a BC of .777. (The BC of that FMJ referenced in my technical crap is .271.) Launched from my 300 WinMag at 3000 fps it's still supersonic at 2 miles.

Ishmael

Canadian sniper stuff. Never hear it coming.

I need some trigger time. It's been way too long. I think I posted in here about my last range day, breaking in the .357. My local range now requires a hunting or fishing license and has severely restricted hours, thanks to the bitchy New Hampshire people across the river. And my town's gun club has made it nearly impossible to join, despite them all telling me they want me to be a member. Go online and apply! they tell me. The website is down. Just give one of us an application! they tell me, only they always say to give it to some other guy when I try. Some other guy doesn't answer emails. It's like a bunch of 70-somethings trying to run a digital camera. All you get is pictures of their feet.

Anyway.

CCW ammo. Rotate, or is it okay to leave the same rounds in the mags for like months and months?

 

[Ishmael]

Canadian sniper stuff. Never hear it coming.

I need some trigger time. It's been way too long. I think I posted in here about my last range day, breaking in the .357. My local range now requires a hunting or fishing license and has severely restricted hours, thanks to the bitchy New Hampshire people across the river. And my town's gun club has made it nearly impossible to join, despite them all telling me they want me to be a member. Go online and apply! they tell me. The website is down. Just give one of us an application! they tell me, only they always say to give it to some other guy when I try. Some other guy doesn't answer emails. It's like a bunch of 70-somethings trying to run a digital camera. All you get is pictures of their feet.

Anyway.

CCW ammo. Rotate, or is it okay to leave the same rounds in the mags for like months and months?

Autoloader?

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Autoloader?

Ishmael

Ruger LC9.

 

[Peregrinator]

Note that I did not say, "no, the magazines go in a revolver."

I must be slipping, to miss a chance like that.

 

[Ishmael]

Ruger LC9.

90% of all autoloader failures are magazine related. The ammo will last for years, unless you have a peculiar habit of storing the pistol underwater.

You need at the least four magazines. Every other week unload the mag. you have in the pistol and put it away. Do the same with the currently loaded mag. the next two weeks. Springs, like elephants, have 'memories.' If you keep them compressed for too long they begin to lose the pressure to properly feed the beast. The investment in the mag's. is a lot cheaper than having a failure when you really need to rely on the pistol.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Canadian sniper stuff. Never hear it coming.

I need some trigger time. It's been way too long. I think I posted in here about my last range day, breaking in the .357. My local range now requires a hunting or fishing license and has severely restricted hours, thanks to the bitchy New Hampshire people across the river. And my town's gun club has made it nearly impossible to join, despite them all telling me they want me to be a member. Go online and apply! they tell me. The website is down. Just give one of us an application! they tell me, only they always say to give it to some other guy when I try. Some other guy doesn't answer emails. It's like a bunch of 70-somethings trying to run a digital camera. All you get is pictures of their feet.

Anyway.

CCW ammo. Rotate, or is it okay to leave the same rounds in the mags for like months and months?

FWIW I shoot 1000 yds on the KD (Known distance range) and up to 1500 yds on the 'outback' range. I'm too damn old for the CQB shit the young bucks do.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

90% of all autoloader failures are magazine related. The ammo will last for years, unless you have a peculiar habit of storing the pistol underwater.

You need at the least four magazines. Every other week unload the mag. you have in the pistol and put it away. Do the same with the currently loaded mag. the next two weeks. Springs, like elephants, have 'memories.' If you keep them compressed for too long they begin to lose the pressure to properly feed the beast. The investment in the mag's. is a lot cheaper than having a failure when you really need to rely on the pistol.

Ishmael

Cheers. I have three now, I'll get another and rotate. But I was actually asking about the ammo itself; is there some reason, as "someone told me" to use different ammo? Like, unload the mag, put that ammo back in the box, reload the mag with other ammo from the box? I couldn't see why the rounds would care if they were sitting around in a box or a mag, but I figured I should ask just in case.

FWIW I shoot 1000 yds on the KD (Known distance range) and up to 1500 yds on the 'outback' range. I'm too damn old for the CQB shit the young bucks do.

Ishmael

I remember you saying. I was referencing the two-mile killshot, as you know. Do we know what weapon he used for that, btw?

 

[Ishmael]

Cheers. I have three now, I'll get another and rotate. But I was actually asking about the ammo itself; is there some reason, as "someone told me" to use different ammo? Like, unload the mag, put that ammo back in the box, reload the mag with other ammo from the box? I couldn't see why the rounds would care if they were sitting around in a box or a mag, but I figured I should ask just in case.



I remember you saying. I was referencing the two-mile killshot, as you know. Do we know what weapon he used for that, btw?

With proper care concern yourself not with the ammo. Practice monthly and you'll shoot the older shit up.

Yeah, it was a .50 cal. Barret. It was NOT a 'one shot, one kill' set-up. Four shots as I recall. He had a good spotter and some really stupid targets. That is not to diminish the achievement, still an awesome shot regardless.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

With proper care concern yourself not with the ammo. Practice monthly and you'll shoot the older shit up.

Yeah, it was a .50 cal. Barret. It was NOT a 'one shot, one kill' set-up. Four shots as I recall. He had a good spotter and some really stupid targets. That is not to diminish the achievement, still an awesome shot regardless.

Ishmael

Wilco.

I'm not surprised it was a Barrett. And yeah, pretty fucking awesome. What's the drop for a .50 over two miles? Like, a hundred feet?

 

[Ishmael]

Wilco.

I'm not surprised it was a Barrett. And yeah, pretty fucking awesome. What's the drop for a .50 over two miles? Like, a hundred feet?

Back to ballistics. The Canadians (and the Brits) use their own loading for the 50 cal. But we're sill talking in excess of 20 ft. drop.

From the Hornady tables, the BC is 1.050 (750 gr FMJ). It will launch at 2800 fps. the twist on the Barret is 1:15 He was shooting up hill (~15 deg.) at an altitude of ~7000 ft. Wind direction and speed are unknown.

So, at 2000 yds with a 500 yd zero we get this;

The drop at 2000 yds is ~90 inches. The spin drift is on the order of 15 inches right, and God only knows what the Coriolis adjustment is going to be at 3400 yds. (And that's where a good spotter comes in). Any wind only complicates the adjustments.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Back to ballistics. The Canadians (and the Brits) use their own loading for the 50 cal. But we're sill talking in excess of 20 ft. drop.

From the Hornady tables, the BC is 1.050 (750 gr FMJ). It will launch at 2800 fps. the twist on the Barret is 1:15 He was shooting up hill (~15 deg.) at an altitude of ~7000 ft. Wind direction and speed are unknown.

So, at 2000 yds with a 500 yd zero we get this;

The drop at 2000 yds is ~90 inches. The spin drift is on the order of 15 inches right, and God only knows what the Coriolis adjustment is going to be at 3400 yds. (And that's where a good spotter comes in). Any wind only complicates the adjustments.

Ishmael

That's actually not as bad as I was expecting it to be. Still an incredible shot.

 

[Ishmael]

That's actually not as bad as I was expecting it to be. Still an incredible shot.

Yes it was, but the spotter should get just as much credit. It was a team effort.

Ishmael

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Getting into the technical end of it.

We'll start with two bullets and shoot them from a 30-06 at 2500 fps. One will be a 220 gr. round nose, the other a 220 gr. full metal jacket. The rifle will be zeroed at 100 yds.

they both started at 2500 fps but at 100 yds the round nose (RN) will be flying at 2122 fps, while the full metal jacket (FMJ) will be flying at 2186 fps.

At 200 yds the RN will be flying at 1631 fps while the FMJ is hitting 1900 fps. The energy levels are 1558 Ft. Lbs for the RN and 1764 for the FMJ.

At 400; RN 1245* fps and 758 ft lbs. The FMJ is 1413 fps and 976 ft lbs.

Beyond 400 yds the differences grow exponentially. The (*) denotes the trans-sonic region. Depending on altitude, barometric pressure, temp, etc. this is approximately 1200 fps. In this trans-sonic region the bullet becomes ballistically unstable and the degree to which it will wander off the sight axis is unpredictable. After passing through the trans-sonic region it will settle down again, but where it will strike is anyone's guess.

The only difference between the two bullets in this example is the ballistic coefficient (BC). The BC of the FMJ is higher than the RN. The BC of that 'TV' bullet is going to be worse that that of the RN just based on form factor. So, depending on caliber and muzzle velocity it will be accurate out to 300 yds or so. But it's flight path will have nothing in common with a reliable hunting load. So as Perg. asked, what the hell is it good for beyond posting to YouTube?

Ishmael

Same thing I'm telling him in the other thread about the two types of models. He "gets" it here, but refuses to get it there, because you know, PhDs...

 

[Peregrinator]

Yes it was, but the spotter should get just as much credit. It was a team effort.

Ishmael

Indeed.

 

[Peregrinator]

Same thing I'm telling him in the other thread about the two types of models. He "gets" it here, but refuses to get it there, because you know, PhDs...

:avery:

You'd make the worst spotter in history.

"Don't take the shot! It's a chaotic system! That bullet could go ANYWHERE!"

 

[Ishmael]

:avery:

You'd make the worst spotter in history.

"Don't take the shot! It's a chaotic system! That bullet could go ANYWHERE!"

Perg, the math of external ballistics is well known now. The only big, and unpredictable, variable left is wind and mirage. Wind is tricky and mirage is an art.

For example, last year we set up two steels out at 290 yds for a 3-gun match. the steels were about 8 ft. apart and for some unknown reason we set up a 'wind' marker to each side of the targets. So I'm looking down range and I notice that the flags are blowing towards each other. Over a distance of 12 ft (+/-) the wind was blowing in opposite directions.

The variables involved in the discussion you two are hinging on are infinitely more complex.

Ishmael

 

[Peregrinator]

Perg, the math of external ballistics is well known now. The only big, and unpredictable, variable left is wind and mirage. Wind is tricky and mirage is an art.

For example, last year we set up two steels out at 290 yds for a 3-gun match. the steels were about 8 ft. apart and for some unknown reason we set up a 'wind' marker to each side of the targets. So I'm looking down range and I notice that the flags are blowing towards each other. Over a distance of 12 ft (+/-) the wind was blowing in opposite directions.

The variables involved in the discussion you two are hinging on are infinitely more complex.

Ishmael

Yes, I realize that. It wasn't I who drew the comparison between your ballistics post and the entire body of climatological research stretching back into the 1800's. AJ refuses to listen to anyone else; maybe you can explain to him that they're pretty different disciplines, and that my accepting the chaos math you introduced in your discussion doesn't mean we have utterly no idea where the bullet will end up. I mean, next he's going to start with electron tunneling and wonder if the birdshot can migrate to the other barrel in the side by side.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You might like: http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017/07/05/truglo-tfx-pro-night-sights-that-glow-in-daylight/

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Yes, I realize that. It wasn't I who drew the comparison between your ballistics post and the entire body of climatological research stretching back into the 1800's. AJ refuses to listen to anyone else; maybe you can explain to him that they're pretty different disciplines, and that my accepting the chaos math you introduced in your discussion doesn't mean we have utterly no idea where the bullet will end up. I mean, next he's going to start with electron tunneling and wonder if the birdshot can migrate to the other barrel in the side by side.

Ishmael understands Chaos Theory and you don't.

What Ishmael is describing is the picture known as the Mandelbrot set where the colors indicate at which point stability disintegrates into instability. It's just a more basic example than is the climate.

That you accuse me of listening to no one else is highly entertaining.

Maybe you should have bartended for mathematicians.

Just sayin'.

 

[RobDownSouth]

That you accuse me of listening to no one else is highly entertaining.
Just sayin'.

You are the living embodiment of "epistemic closure".
As the noted philosopher Simon N. Garfunkel once opined, "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
just sayin'.

 

[Peregrinator]

Ishmael understands Chaos Theory and you don't.

What Ishmael is describing is the picture known as the Mandelbrot set where the colors indicate at which point stability disintegrates into instability. It's just a more basic example than is the climate.

That you accuse me of listening to no one else is highly entertaining.

Maybe you should have bartended for mathematicians.

Just sayin'.

Please don't derail yet another thread with this stuff.