How many dead innocent children is your right to own guns worth?

[BotanyBoy]

Oh I feel ya. I tend towards the darker stuff but if you haven't seen Death Note of Psycho Pass those are both excellent. Full Metal Alchemist is good but you've probably seen it by now. If you don't mind fun The Devil is a Part Timer is a cute little romp.

But yeah it's still not a great collection of anime. It's passable at best.

Yea I've seen FMA and Psycho Pass but not Death Note, I'll have to give that a zing. And I'm on a beige atm so I'll prob give the fun one a whirl too.

Thanks for the suggestions. *nod*

 

[BoyNextDoor]

sorry....you're just getting closer and closer to the loosing end of this argument.

And it's your own fault too, the RW/ 'pro gun' REFUSE to do anything about a problem. They won't even acknowledge there is one. But the middle isn't trying as hard to turn a blind eye.

If you lot got together and came up with some kind of shall issue licencing laws or SOMETHING to actually try and keep the crazies/irresponsible types away from the dangerous hardware.



Fuuuuck yes. There is no reason to do that except left wing asshole trying to be the biggest prick possible while accomplishing nothing because it doesn't address the issue, it doesn't reduce the number of nut jobs and irresponsible types from getting their hands on them.

As long as the left keeps trying to restrict the number/types of weapons instead of the people who have access to them they are failing to address the issue either out of ignorance or the need to be total dicks...in either case they shouldn't be taken seriously.

There is no good method of restricting the people who get them though.

We toss around crazy all the time but it's when we are talking about legal restrictions we're talking about actual medical diagnosis crazy. When you look at the people who get caught in these mass shootings most of them don't suffer from what MOST people would qualify as mentally ill. 1 in 10, (more actually) are on anti-depressants. We can argue later about if that number is because doctors just prescribe without thinking or not later. For a moment lets pretend that's a good number. That's 10% of the population bared from owning a gun and really if the owner doesn't keep the weapon in a safe bared from owning and bared from living in a household with one should be the same thing no?

Worse I want people who have mental illnesses to go visit the doctor and get the help they need! Take a look around this forum and imagine some of the hardcore righties here being forced to make a choice between being able to own guns and talking to a doctor about why Tinkerbell won't stop doing pole dances with his cock. Any guesses on how many of them seek professional help vs ignoring and/or self medicating?

I'd have to look up the stats to be 100% certain but knowing that most murders are spur of the moment shit and we already have laws to keep weapons away from felons (many of whom probably shouldn't be prevented from owning a gun for various reasons. Not least of which if your argument is that people with guns are safer from other people with guns I don't see how you can send a man into Chicago without a gun no matter what he's done.) So the law would have be expansive enough to catch people really early or just you know carry on.

If 10% of the population is taking those drugs and/or has a mental illness then it is what it is. No guns for you!

Agreed with BB that the focus need to be on the people who have access to the weapons and not the weapons themselves. Way more public policy focus in this area is necessary.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yea I've seen FMA and Psycho Pass but not Death Note, I'll have to give that a zing. And I'm on a beige atm so I'll prob give the fun one a whirl too.

Thanks for the suggestions. *nod*

Death Note is excellent. I'll totally vouch for that shit. The other like I said is fun, it's 13 episodes but mostly it's amusing, I'll glance through it later today and see if there is anything else on my "you might not hate this" list. Cus I had a boring couple of weeks and just watched whatever it told me to.

If 10% of the population is taking those drugs and/or has a mental illness then it is what it is. No guns for you!

Agreed with BB that the focus need to be on the people who have access to the weapons and not the weapons themselves. Way more public policy focus in this area is necessary.

It's probably more than 10% but my point was more that if you're afraid the government is going to take your guns mental illness is easy as fuck to "get". The government that was gearing up to take you out would. . .suddenly start prescribing drugs to young boys for being energetic in class.

As for restricting people how do you handle a family? Would my brother, father and myself lose our right to have guns because my mother is depressed? Would you have to register your address or something to prevent this? (I'm not against registering firearms but lots of progun people are.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Just some informational fuel for the fire.

2014 Accidental Death's in Children (14 and under) by Firearm - 58.

2014 Households owning 1 or more gun with children under the age of 14 1.7 million

2014 risk percentage of accidental death by firearm .000003.

From 1992 to 2012 the accidental death rate for children fell 73% from 216 to 58.

The single riskiest thing you (or your child) can do is get in a car. Children's death by medical accident is on par with the risk from firearm accident. So, basically, taking your child to the pediatrician is as dangerous to them as owning a firearm.

You or your child are more likely to die from:*
-Accidental Poisoning (28.4%)
-Motor Vehicle (27.3%)
-Falls (22.5%)
-All other accidents (8.7%)
-Suffocation (4.9%)
-Drowning (2.8%)
-Fire & Smoke (2.0%)
-Juvenile Homicide (1.8%)**
-Natural/Environmental (1.1%)
-Struck by or against an Object (0.7%)
-Transportation, other than motor vehicle (0.7%)
-Machinery (0.5%)
-Firearms (0.4%)

*Source is CDC WISGARS 2012 data
**Juvenile homicide is a whole other topic, but I thought I would include it for a touchpoint. Data is from FBI crime rate tables, 2012. Interestingly enough in 85% of US counties there were NO juvenile homicides in 2012.

 

[Iceprincess12]

Just some informational fuel for the fire.

2014 Accidental Death's in Children (14 and under) by Firearm - 58.

2014 Households owning 1 or more gun with children under the age of 14 1.7 million

2014 risk percentage of accidental death by firearm .000003.

From 1992 to 2012 the accidental death rate for children fell 73% from 216 to 58.

The single riskiest thing you (or your child) can do is get in a car. Children's death by medical accident is on par with the risk from firearm accident. So, basically, taking your child to the pediatrician is as dangerous to them as owning a firearm.

You or your child are more likely to die from:*
-Accidental Poisoning (28.4%)
-Motor Vehicle (27.3%)
-Falls (22.5%)
-All other accidents (8.7%)
-Suffocation (4.9%)
-Drowning (2.8%)
-Fire & Smoke (2.0%)
-Juvenile Homicide (1.8%)**
-Natural/Environmental (1.1%)
-Struck by or against an Object (0.7%)
-Transportation, other than motor vehicle (0.7%)
-Machinery (0.5%)
-Firearms (0.4%)

*Source is CDC WISGARS 2012 data
**Juvenile homicide is a whole other topic, but I thought I would include it for a touchpoint. Data is from FBI crime rate tables, 2012. Interestingly enough in 85% of US counties there were NO juvenile homicides in 2012.

My point would have been much simpler but it remains the same. We are willing to trade human lives for conveniences. As abhorent as it seems, it's true. No cars = no children dead from car accidents. No cords with blinds = no children dead from cord strangulation, so on.

The op's question indicates just how simplistic his reasoning is.

Let's all sing O'Canada in the spirit of unity.

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.


I think we all feel more united now.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Just some informational fuel for the fire.

2014 Accidental Death's in Children (14 and under) by Firearm - 58.

2014 Households owning 1 or more gun with children under the age of 14 1.7 million

2014 risk percentage of accidental death by firearm .000003.

From 1992 to 2012 the accidental death rate for children fell 73% from 216 to 58.

The single riskiest thing you (or your child) can do is get in a car. Children's death by medical accident is on par with the risk from firearm accident. So, basically, taking your child to the pediatrician is as dangerous to them as owning a firearm.

You or your child are more likely to die from:*
-Accidental Poisoning (28.4%)
-Motor Vehicle (27.3%)
-Falls (22.5%)
-All other accidents (8.7%)
-Suffocation (4.9%)
-Drowning (2.8%)
-Fire & Smoke (2.0%)
-Juvenile Homicide (1.8%)**
-Natural/Environmental (1.1%)
-Struck by or against an Object (0.7%)
-Transportation, other than motor vehicle (0.7%)
-Machinery (0.5%)
-Firearms (0.4%)

*Source is CDC WISGARS 2012 data
**Juvenile homicide is a whole other topic, but I thought I would include it for a touchpoint. Data is from FBI crime rate tables, 2012. Interestingly enough in 85% of US counties there were NO juvenile homicides in 2012.

Except that's a fairly stupid comparison. Ignoring that cars are not weapons they are modes of transporation there is also their sheer presence in our lives. I enjoy shooting. I'll spend more time in my car tomorrow than I'm likely to spend directly handling my three firearms all year. Granted I don't know for sure who's armed and who isn't but making the radical assumption that 50% of the people I pass by on a given day are armed I'm still gonna nearly get run over by twice as many cars as I'm going to encounter people with guns. You may as well make the argument that bees kill more people each year than crocodiles.

My point would have been much simpler but it remains the same. We are willing to trade human lives for conveniences. As abhorent as it seems, it's true. No cars = no children dead from car accidents. No cords with blinds = no children dead from cord strangulation, so on.

The op's question indicates just how simplistic his reasoning is.

Let's all sing O'Canada in the spirit of unity.

O Canada!
Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.


I think we all feel more united now.

No cars = lots of kids and adults for that matter starving.

For fucks sake people. Cars=/=guns. Modern life is virtually impossible without cars and utterly impossible without modern transportation. Most people will not handle a gun on any given day, week or month. A large percent will go years or even lifetimes without handling one for any reason.

Let me join in on the retard games. No water means no kids drowning! We trade safety for conveinence all the time. I like making kool-ade and taking showers and my garden needs water to grow but kids drown in it. You don't hear people talking about taking awy water!

 

[Iceprincess12]

Let me join in on the retard games. No water means no kids drowning! We trade safety for conveinence all the time. I like making kool-ade and taking showers and my garden needs water to grow but kids drown in it. You don't hear people talking about taking awy water!

I think you are Captain Retard, but...

You don't need a car to survive, you do need water. Time to revist the necessities of life perhaps?

Cry for our modern world where materialism would suffer and you would have no money, no jobs and people would just live. Or, they would fail to adapt and die. Just because you don't like the consequences doesn't mean you get to skew the facts. You don't need anything other than food, water and shelter to survive. You are willing to have children die for modern conveniences. We all are. Accept it.

Lie to yourself if you want. It makes you feel better and at the end of the day, that is what is important.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I think you are Captain Retard, but...

You don't need a car to survive, you do need water. Time to revist the necessities of life perhaps?

Cry for our modern world where materialism would suffer and you would have no money, no jobs and people would just live. Or, they would fail to adapt and die. Just because you don't like the consequences doesn't mean you get to skew the facts. You don't need anything other than food, water and shelter to survive. You are willing to have children die for modern conveniences. We all are. Accept it.

Lie to yourself if you want. It makes you feel better and at the end of the day, that is what is important.

Based on my experiences, Mom's boyfriend is the greatest risk to her kids.

So lets make possession of guns and boyfriends felony crimes.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I think you are Captain Retard, but...

You don't need a car to survive, you do need water. Time to revist the necessities of life perhaps?

Cry for our modern world where materialism would suffer and you would have no money, no jobs and people would just live. Or, they would fail to adapt and die. Just because you don't like the consequences doesn't mean you get to skew the facts. You don't need anything other than food, water and shelter to survive. You are willing to have children die for modern conveniences. We all are. Accept it.

Lie to yourself if you want. It makes you feel better and at the end of the day, that is what is important.

Most Americans commute to work and even if they didn't the goods they count on to survive are brought in by vehicle. Do you have any clue how quickly the local Vons would run out of EVERYTHING if the trucks couldn't get there? Ask someone who's been in a disaster like say me, Northridge Earthquake. Or those guys who insist on sticking around for a huricane every goddamn year.

I'm not skewing the facts, you're simply ignoring the parts that you don't like. The reality is that for every kid who didn't die in a car accident because we eliminated cars a dozen would starve to death or die of bullshit injuries that an ambulance trip to the hospital would have solved or from some illness that getting antibiotics on time would have fixed.


I am more than willing to have children die for modern conveniences. But cars make modern life possible. Without them we're talking huge adaptations and probably huge losses of life from all the shit we wouldn't be able to accomplish anymore. A world without guns would at worst prove Conservatives correct and everybody would be Kung Fu fighting in the streets with their Mad Max inspired barbwire bats.

Accidental poisoning the #1 killer doesn't break it down any farther than that but those chemicals the kids end up eating are probably cleaning agents that save more lives per year than don't. This is math.

 

[Artemidorus]

I'm sure making guns illegal will keep them away from kids. Right? If that works perhaps we can make drugs illegal next.

The cold hard fact is that CBS interviewed teens across the world and they reported that out of cigarettes, alcohol and drugs, that DRUGS were the easiest for them to come by. Despite over 69 percent of their parents being smokers or drinkers. One in four said that they've seen drugs being used or sold at their schools. One third said they could get their hands on an illegal drug in just a few hours. 27 percent said that if they wanted to, they could get it in LESS than an hour.

Are drugs easier to smuggle than guns? Of course. But does outlawing them make them all disappear? No. Never. It just makes it so that criminals who obtain their goods illegally with have access to firearms, and us, citizens with family and children who got their guns legally, then taken away, will be sitting ducks. Our children are bleeding out on the floor from an armed robber while your precious police are still 8 minutes away.

Now, on the opposite side. Do we need stricter gun regulation? Hell yeah. Should we doing a lot more to make sure that Islamic criminals and illegal goods aren't sneaking into the country? Hell to the yeah. But you cant prosecute a whole country of legal and safe arm bearers for what some crazy radical mother fuckers are doing.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yes, outlawing guns will do a lot to keep them out of the hands of children. Again check Europe or Canada or Japan or Australia for relevent stats. Guns=/=drugs it's really a stupid comparison.

Yeah that tells me that the CBS poll was flawed in some way not that drugs are THAT easy to get. Don't get me wrong, difficult they are not but in every house I knew getting alcohol was as simple as going in the fridge when someone wasn't looking or into the liquor cabinet. There are polls that showed that more kids recognized Joe Camel than Mickey Mouse and we all knew that was bullshit too.

Nothing makes them all go away but it doesn't mean that criminals will have guns and we won't. Because if guns are harder for them to obtain fewer of them will manage it/be able to afford it. If they know you don't have a gun they have less need for one in the first place.

Our children will be bleeding out on the floor no more and no less than children are in Europe. Please show me how out of control break ins are in those countries or at least admit Americans are uniquely evil in the world.

Unfortunately there are few ways and Islamic terrorists do so little damage that going after them on gun control is insane.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Artemidorus makes a good point in the whole debate. Setting aside for the moment the fact that the individual right to keep and bear arms is now the law of the land we have to consider proportionality.

An estimated 270 million guns in private ownership, owned by 42,550,000 households.

We know that there are approximately

152,000 armed robberies where a gun is used
11,000 homocides involving a gun
159,000 aggravated assaults involving a gun

322,000 gun crimes per year.

To find the high end of the percentage let's assume that each gun crime represents an individual household.(1) That tells us that .0007 households or individuals in those households misuse a gun in some criminal fashion. It also tells us that .9993 never use a gun in an unlawful manner.

Gun control then would punish and restrict the civil right of .9993 of innocent citizens for the behavior of .0007 criminals.

So, let me frame it as a question:

Do you believe that it is just and proportional to punish, though the instrument of the state, 9993 people who have never committed a criminal act because 7 people did?

(1) We know this isn't an actual top of the range given the tendency of incidents of crime to cluster around individuals who commit multiple offenses.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Not that the math you did seems to be accurate for a number of reasons but that ultimately is the question. Is it proper to punish everybody for the sake of the few. Though it's probably worth looking into what many of the majority actually THINK about any given thing.

My point has been for a while that if your argument is this is how many gun deaths we have then you need to stop pretending you care when a mass shooting happens. I dno't care. It's the price of paying the game.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

asshats ....


the government tried to make booze illegal .... how did that work out?

asshats in government made drugs illegal ... how is this working out?

fuck, one can order up any drug in federal prison. point is, if assholes in government can't secure a fucking federal prison how the fuck will they seal off Mexico (especially when there is no fucking fence)?


you obama people are stupid and make retards look like geniuses

 

[Hard_Rom]

How often are kids in cars? Just like adults. Cars are mega killers! I would hope they spend more time being driven to various games then twiddling about with dad's nine. Kids can spend hours in a car weekly. Wear helmets in cars and 80% of fatalities go away. Do it for kids under 16. Did not always have to wear seatbelts.

And all the other reasons kids die are generally being looked at and save guarded against as best we can in a nanny society. Cars we apparently seem to need. Power tools are quite helpful. Disease happens. Guns? Need? Helpful? Shit happens right. Kids get cancer, kids get killed with guns! Same thing right?!

 

[renard_ruse]

Endless. My rights as a law abiding citizen are unrelated to the acts of criminals.

1,000,000 criminals could shoot someone and it would still be completely unrelated to law abiding peaceful people's Constitutional and human right to own firearms.

There's ZERO relationship between the actions of criminals and the rights of peaceful law abiding citizens.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Endless. My rights as a law abiding citizen are unrelated to the acts of criminals.

1,000,000 criminals could shoot someone and it would still be completely unrelated to law abiding peaceful people's Constitutional and human right to own firearms.

There's ZERO relationship between the actions of criminals and the rights of peaceful law abiding citizens.

Aboslute horseshit. Each and every person is a potential criminal and in this case we are also including potential dumbasses making dumbass mistakes.

The rights of peaceful law abiding citizens are ultimately divined from the mob. There is and can be no other way.

 

[FGB]

Nice apples-to-oranges deflection.
*nods*

Hypothetical scenario: Would a law limiting each household to one rifle and one handgun be contrary to the 2nd Amendment in your opinion?

Nothing to do with it.

I own um four pistols and two rifles and one shotgun (I lost some in the divorce...hey, it's Texas.) I would like to have something pocket sized to carry everywhere but I'll be damned if I can make up my mind on what!

Besides how are you going to enforce that law?

Do you have ANY ideal how easy it is to make a 9MM machine gun?

There is enough Legal Guns and ammo in Texas alone to fight a fair sized war.

Another thing guns are Value... need cash or batter material and have some fire arms sitting around? No problem.

We like guns and will have them. Less guns or insecurity in the world. Guns and ammo are worth more.

Ever time Oboma opens his mouth about gun control the guns fly of the shelves, warehouses empty and ammo goes up and is hard to buy.

Give it up.

Oh. and the NRA does have a Damned thing to do with it.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oh. and the NRA does have a Damned thing to do with it.

Are you saying one of the primary gun lobbies in the USA has nothing to do with current legalities surrounding guns/gun ownership?

 

[DeYaKen]

Something puzzles me.
With so many people in the US armed to the teeth, why do none of them intervene to stop the bad guy when he is massacring innocent people?

 

[ToPleaseHim]

Something puzzles me.
With so many people in the US armed to the teeth, why do none of them intervene to stop the bad guy when he is massacring innocent people?

When they are present, they do. Often unarmed individuals intervene, as well.

 

[ToPleaseHim]

I do not want criminals with guns to know that homes in which law-abiding people live are gun-free. People may choose to own firearms or not to, no one is forcing anyone to own a gun. The bad guys cannot look at my home and know whether or not I am armed, and I prefer it this way.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

on you gun haters are insane

 

[BotanyBoy]

Something puzzles me.
With so many people in the US armed to the teeth, why do none of them intervene to stop the bad guy when he is massacring innocent people?

They do, but unless they can spin it into "redneck shoots poor innocent ISIS member" it will NEVER make the news....

 

[Sean Renaud]

I do not want criminals with guns to know that homes in which law-abiding people live are gun-free. People may choose to own firearms or not to, no one is forcing anyone to own a gun. The bad guys cannot look at my home and know whether or not I am armed, and I prefer it this way.

The reality is for the most part they don't care. Ignoring that most break ins happen during the middle of the day with good reason (most thieves are not murderers and they intentionally seek to avoid confrontation thus attacking while you're likely to be at work/school/socializing if they are willing to kill you most "responsible" gun owners are only slightly less fucked than the rest of the world. After all the guy isn't going to give you a minute to get to your safe and open it.