How many dead innocent children is your right to own guns worth?

[Paul_Chance]

One of the things the gun lobby will often point out as well is that the vast majority of mass shootings occur in "gun free" zones - schools, offices, government buildings. Even if a person in one of these facilities has the ability to be armed - they aren't. There have been cases where an armed guard, nearby officer, off duty LE, or just citizen has intervened. When that intervention occurs, it generally does not become a "mass shooting" incident and therefore generates little publicity.

 

[SweetCupcake]

I have traveled quite a bit internationally and never feel truly that my life is in danger -- but when I come home to the U.S. I am quickly reminded that I can be blown away by an angry, crazy person in an instant with the obscene amount of guns and ammo any individual is allowed to collect in their personal arsenal. I just want to know why the rest of the civilized world is able to get along without all the individual firepower.

Seems like smart people could come to a reasonable balance here. Alas, no.

 

[Hard_Rom]

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/

Unintentional Deaths and Injuries

In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people.18

From 2005-2010, almost 3,800 people in the U.S. died from unintentional shootings.19

Over 1,300 victims of unintentional shootings for the period 2005–2010 were under 25 years of age.20

People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.21

A federal government study of unintentional shootings found that 8% of such shooting deaths resulted from shots fired by children under the age of six.22

The U.S. General Accounting Office has estimated that 31% of unintentional deaths caused by firearms might be prevented by the addition of two devices: a child-proof safety lock (8%) and a loading indicator (23%).23

 

[Sean Renaud]

They do, but unless they can spin it into "redneck shoots poor innocent ISIS member" it will NEVER make the news....

The stats on self defense shootings are out there, it doesn't happen overmuch. Most likely because Americans being "armed to the teeth" doesn't mean we're walking around with guns. I have four in my possession (well three and a club I don't think any amount of love is going to save one shotty from the rustmonster my grandfather summoned on it) but I can easily go weeks without touching any and months without touching any particular one.

One of the things the gun lobby will often point out as well is that the vast majority of mass shootings occur in "gun free" zones - schools, offices, government buildings. Even if a person in one of these facilities has the ability to be armed - they aren't. There have been cases where an armed guard, nearby officer, off duty LE, or just citizen has intervened. When that intervention occurs, it generally does not become a "mass shooting" incident and therefore generates little publicity.

I've never actually seen the stats. I see the claims but I find them difficult to coincide with the other half of their claim which is that the majority of these shootings are gang violence.

And shootings only get publicity when they involve muslims, schools or the occasional high score.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The stats on self defense shootings are out there, it doesn't happen overmuch.

I'm not saying happens overmuch...but it happens and you will NEVER see a single report of it in the fuckin' news. MAYBE if someone saves a bunch of kids from the head of ISIS himself, might break local news.

CNN? not a mother fuckin' chance in hell.....guns = 100% evil 100% of the time and they will never even ask a question that might lead anyone to think otherwise much less show gun in a positive light.

 

[DeYaKen]

I do not want criminals with guns to know that homes in which law-abiding people live are gun-free. People may choose to own firearms or not to, no one is forcing anyone to own a gun. The bad guys cannot look at my home and know whether or not I am armed, and I prefer it this way.

That simply means that they will carry a gun with them into your home. You might have one so to increase their chances of survival they must have one. It's a viscous circle.
If the bad guy knows that you don't have one, then he doesn't need one. In countries where guns are illegal It would cost much more to buy an illegal gun, than anyone would get from robbing your home.
The beauty of gun control is that it applies to good and bad alike.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

obama will win the war on guns just like its regime is whining the war on drugs

#TigerBlood anyone?

 

[PoppingTom]

The beauty of gun control is that it applies to good and bad alike.

The beauty of gun control is that it differs the adults from the forever-kids.

Offc ourse, taking candy from a baby...

 

[DeYaKen]

They do, but unless they can spin it into "redneck shoots poor innocent ISIS member" it will NEVER make the news....

I smell paranoia, and from what I've seen of the US Press I don't believe it. They are all too ready to spin the 'Home boy hero' tale. Certainly Fox News would love it.

Can you really see the shrinking violets of the NRA, not making a big thing about a civillian using his side arm to put an end to a massacre. Such stories would be manna from heaven for them. Instead of having to wave the second ammendment, and sponsor all those politicians, they could win the public over by bringing up all the instances of how an armed civillian saved all those lives. Then they would only have the problem of dealing with people saying,"If those crazy people couldn't buy guns, the lives wouldn't have needed to be saved."

Aren't most of your massacres carried out by home grown white christian males? Bit difficult to play the racist card about them.

 

[NeverEndingMe]

does your mom make you wear a sign for being stupid?

I smell paranoia, and from what I've seen of the US Press I don't believe it. They are all too ready to spin the 'Home boy hero' tale. Certainly Fox News would love it.

Can you really see the shrinking violets of the NRA, not making a big thing about a civillian using his side arm to put an end to a massacre. Such stories would be manna from heaven for them. Instead of having to wave the second ammendment, and sponsor all those politicians, they could win the public over by bringing up all the instances of how an armed civillian saved all those lives. Then they would only have the problem of dealing with people saying,"If those crazy people couldn't buy guns, the lives wouldn't have needed to be saved."

Aren't most of your massacres carried out by home grown white christian males? Bit difficult to play the racist card about them.

 

[Sean Renaud]

While I think you're being too rough on CNN other than that I agree.

I don't think it's a cover up so much as it's not every sexy though.

 

[DeYaKen]

does your mom make you wear a sign for being stupid?

when you can't come up with an answer resort to abuse, seems to be the rule you live by. Silly me, fancy expecting a rational argument.

 

[thecuckedone]

We should ban guns, then only allow heavy artillery.

 

[Sean Renaud]

We should ban guns, then only allow heavy artillery.

Somehow the idea of my ex calling down mortar shots on my house is quite unsettling.

 

[Paul_Chance]

1997 Joel Myrick stopped would be school shooter Luke Woodham - killed his mother prior to going to his high school and killing two students and wounding several others before being confronted by Myrick who held him at gun-point.

1998 teen shooter attacked high school dance at local restaurant, killed one teacher, wounded three students before confronted by James Strand, owner of restaurant, with a shotgun and surrendering.

1982 Carl Brown attacked a Miami welding shop, killed eight before being killed by a passing civilian armed with a pistol.

2010 shooter entered AT&T store with list of six employees he intended to kill. When he shot the first one, an off duty officer with a concealed pistol killed him.

2007 Trolley Square, Utah, shooter engaged by off duty officer on date with his wife. Officer kept the shooter pinned down until unformed officers arrived and killed him.

2006 North Carolina, a Columbine obsessed shooter killed his father and then drove to the school and opened fire. London Ivey (school resource officer) and Russ LeBlance, shop teacher, confronted and subdued the shooter at gun point.

2002 Appalachian Law School student opened fire, killing a dean and a professor. The shooter was engaged by two law students who retrieved their firearms from their vehicles and surrendered when confronted.

2007 New Life Church Colorado, Matthew Murray attacked church during service with improvised smoke grenades and a semi-automatic rifle, killing two teenage girls and wounded two others before being shot and killed by an armed congregation member. (Often mistakenly cited as a security officer for the church, she was in fact a former police officer with a CCW who was volunteering at the service.)

2012 Santa Clara, CA a disturbed 21 year old with a 9mm and 100 rounds of ammunition entered a store and announced he was going to kill everyone, firing a shot into the ceiling. An employee, armed with a concealed .45 shot him several times in the chest, killing him.

2009 Golden Food Market, Virginia - gunman attacked market, killed by armed customer before killing anyone.

2012 Early Texas, a deranged man killed two neighbors and engaged responding police officer with gunfire. Killed by neighbor who had armed himself with a revolver on hearing the first gunshots.

2008 Winnemucca Nevada - shooter entered Players Bar & Grill, killed two people. He continued to fire at customers who were taking cover until shot and killed by another customer with a concealed pistol.

The lists go on and on. Most never make it beyond the local news because they are stopped prior to it being flashy enough to make the national news. Even at Columbine, the two shooters were engaged by an armed school resource officer who placed himself in a protective position over approximately 30 students as the killers approached a crowded class room and engaged them in an exchange of gunfire, then safely evacuated the students as the shooters retreated.

 

[phrodeau]

1997 Joel Myrick stopped would be school shooter Luke Woodham - killed his mother prior to going to his high school and killing two students and wounding several others before being confronted by Myrick who held him at gun-point.

1998 teen shooter attacked high school dance at local restaurant, killed one teacher, wounded three students before confronted by James Strand, owner of restaurant, with a shotgun and surrendering.

1982 Carl Brown attacked a Miami welding shop, killed eight before being killed by a passing civilian armed with a pistol.

2010 shooter entered AT&T store with list of six employees he intended to kill. When he shot the first one, an off duty officer with a concealed pistol killed him.

2007 Trolley Square, Utah, shooter engaged by off duty officer on date with his wife. Officer kept the shooter pinned down until unformed officers arrived and killed him.

2006 North Carolina, a Columbine obsessed shooter killed his father and then drove to the school and opened fire. London Ivey (school resource officer) and Russ LeBlance, shop teacher, confronted and subdued the shooter at gun point.

2002 Appalachian Law School student opened fire, killing a dean and a professor. The shooter was engaged by two law students who retrieved their firearms from their vehicles and surrendered when confronted.

2007 New Life Church Colorado, Matthew Murray attacked church during service with improvised smoke grenades and a semi-automatic rifle, killing two teenage girls and wounded two others before being shot and killed by an armed congregation member. (Often mistakenly cited as a security officer for the church, she was in fact a former police officer with a CCW who was volunteering at the service.)

2012 Santa Clara, CA a disturbed 21 year old with a 9mm and 100 rounds of ammunition entered a store and announced he was going to kill everyone, firing a shot into the ceiling. An employee, armed with a concealed .45 shot him several times in the chest, killing him.

2009 Golden Food Market, Virginia - gunman attacked market, killed by armed customer before killing anyone.

2012 Early Texas, a deranged man killed two neighbors and engaged responding police officer with gunfire. Killed by neighbor who had armed himself with a revolver on hearing the first gunshots.

2008 Winnemucca Nevada - shooter entered Players Bar & Grill, killed two people. He continued to fire at customers who were taking cover until shot and killed by another customer with a concealed pistol.

The lists go on and on. Most never make it beyond the local news because they are stopped prior to it being flashy enough to make the national news. Even at Columbine, the two shooters were engaged by an armed school resource officer who placed himself in a protective position over approximately 30 students as the killers approached a crowded class room and engaged them in an exchange of gunfire, then safely evacuated the students as the shooters retreated.

Another list of people killed by guns.

 

[DeYaKen]

1997 Joel Myrick stopped would be school shooter Luke Woodham - killed his mother prior to going to his high school and killing two students and wounding several others before being confronted by Myrick who held him at gun-point.

1998 teen shooter attacked high school dance at local restaurant, killed one teacher, wounded three students before confronted by James Strand, owner of restaurant, with a shotgun and surrendering.

1982 Carl Brown attacked a Miami welding shop, killed eight before being killed by a passing civilian armed with a pistol.

2010 shooter entered AT&T store with list of six employees he intended to kill. When he shot the first one, an off duty officer with a concealed pistol killed him.

2007 Trolley Square, Utah, shooter engaged by off duty officer on date with his wife. Officer kept the shooter pinned down until unformed officers arrived and killed him.

2006 North Carolina, a Columbine obsessed shooter killed his father and then drove to the school and opened fire. London Ivey (school resource officer) and Russ LeBlance, shop teacher, confronted and subdued the shooter at gun point.

2002 Appalachian Law School student opened fire, killing a dean and a professor. The shooter was engaged by two law students who retrieved their firearms from their vehicles and surrendered when confronted.

2007 New Life Church Colorado, Matthew Murray attacked church during service with improvised smoke grenades and a semi-automatic rifle, killing two teenage girls and wounded two others before being shot and killed by an armed congregation member. (Often mistakenly cited as a security officer for the church, she was in fact a former police officer with a CCW who was volunteering at the service.)

2012 Santa Clara, CA a disturbed 21 year old with a 9mm and 100 rounds of ammunition entered a store and announced he was going to kill everyone, firing a shot into the ceiling. An employee, armed with a concealed .45 shot him several times in the chest, killing him.

2009 Golden Food Market, Virginia - gunman attacked market, killed by armed customer before killing anyone.

2012 Early Texas, a deranged man killed two neighbors and engaged responding police officer with gunfire. Killed by neighbor who had armed himself with a revolver on hearing the first gunshots.

2008 Winnemucca Nevada - shooter entered Players Bar & Grill, killed two people. He continued to fire at customers who were taking cover until shot and killed by another customer with a concealed pistol.

The lists go on and on. Most never make it beyond the local news because they are stopped prior to it being flashy enough to make the national news. Even at Columbine, the two shooters were engaged by an armed school resource officer who placed himself in a protective position over approximately 30 students as the killers approached a crowded class room and engaged them in an exchange of gunfire, then safely evacuated the students as the shooters retreated.

Now that's the sort of thing I was expecting and I thank you for it. It does reflect the gun owners in a better light. However, it still doesn't counter the argument that if gun ownership was illegal there would have been no need for those people to step in.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Now that's the sort of thing I was expecting and I thank you for it. It does reflect the gun owners in a better light. However, it still doesn't counter the argument that if gun ownership was illegal there would have been no need for those people to step in.

This is where the difference between stats and lists become important. That looks like roughly one a year (and no gauranteee any of those would have been truly mass shootings mind you.) but I didn't count it looks like over half are made up of police of various states. IF the argument is that more armed people=less mass shootings I think you have to remove police and security guards from the list. Since while it's said as an insult (Liberals only want the big gubmind armed!) nobody is really talking about taking guns from cops.

Also nobody was denying it happens. Just that the stats don't bear out the idea that the trade off is worth it.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I smell paranoia, and from what I've seen of the US Press I don't believe it. They are all too ready to spin the 'Home boy hero' tale. Certainly Fox News would love it.

Fox yes, but I DARE you to find a pro gun national news run on really any of the others.

Can you really see the shrinking violets of the NRA, not making a big thing about a civillian using his side arm to put an end to a massacre.

The NRA doesn't own liberal media outlets.

Such stories would be manna from heaven ....

That's why they are on FOX, and well....pretty much only FOX.

You go find me an MSNBC pro gun special and I'll bend over and kiss my own ass.

You CLEARLY don't have the slightest clue as to the US medias portrait of the gun control issue but I assure you the moderate to heavy leaning left outlets wouldn't run pro gun anything. That shit just does not happen because they are owned, funded and supported by those that are either partially or wholly against private gun ownership for an audience that is largely of the same mindset.

While I think you're being too rough on CNN other than that I agree.

I don't think it's a cover up so much as it's not every sexy though.

I didn't say it's a cover up....there is no conspiracy. I'm saying they won't report it because it's not anti gun. It doesn't fit what they are paid to push, so they don't.

But if you think I'm being harsh I'm open to see where they positively headline a responsible gun owner blasting a mother fucker who had it coming. Because in the 20 years I've been watching CNN, never have I seen them put private gun ownership in a positive light in any way shape form or fashion. They have been consistently and rather blatantly anti gun/gun ownership since the Brady Campaign.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Not fitting what they want to push would be a conspiracy, a low level one considering that it is there prerogative and all but still that's more intentional than I give them credit for.

I'll look. I'm sure I can find ONE but I don't deny they don't tend to support gun owners.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Not fitting what they want to push would be a conspiracy, a low level one considering that it is there prerogative and all but still that's more intentional than I give them credit for.

I'll look. I'm sure I can find ONE but I don't deny they don't tend to support gun owners.

Then fuck it, it's a conspiracy. Because I don't think they run many if ANY pro gun anything when there are all kinds of positive gun shit they could run. From a car jacker getting what was coming to him to after school youth activities, they are about as fair and balanced on the subject as FOX.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Fair enough on that.

 

[Hard_Rom]

1997 Joel Myrick stopped would be school shooter Luke Woodham - killed his mother prior to going to his high school and killing two students and wounding several others before being confronted by Myrick who held him at gun-point.

1998 teen shooter attacked high school dance at local restaurant, killed one teacher, wounded three students before confronted by James Strand, owner of restaurant, with a shotgun and surrendering.

1982 Carl Brown attacked a Miami welding shop, killed eight before being killed by a passing civilian armed with a pistol.

2010 shooter entered AT&T store with list of six employees he intended to kill. When he shot the first one, an off duty officer with a concealed pistol killed him.

2007 Trolley Square, Utah, shooter engaged by off duty officer on date with his wife. Officer kept the shooter pinned down until unformed officers arrived and killed him.

2006 North Carolina, a Columbine obsessed shooter killed his father and then drove to the school and opened fire. London Ivey (school resource officer) and Russ LeBlance, shop teacher, confronted and subdued the shooter at gun point.

2002 Appalachian Law School student opened fire, killing a dean and a professor. The shooter was engaged by two law students who retrieved their firearms from their vehicles and surrendered when confronted.

2007 New Life Church Colorado, Matthew Murray attacked church during service with improvised smoke grenades and a semi-automatic rifle, killing two teenage girls and wounded two others before being shot and killed by an armed congregation member. (Often mistakenly cited as a security officer for the church, she was in fact a former police officer with a CCW who was volunteering at the service.)

2012 Santa Clara, CA a disturbed 21 year old with a 9mm and 100 rounds of ammunition entered a store and announced he was going to kill everyone, firing a shot into the ceiling. An employee, armed with a concealed .45 shot him several times in the chest, killing him.

2009 Golden Food Market, Virginia - gunman attacked market, killed by armed customer before killing anyone.

2012 Early Texas, a deranged man killed two neighbors and engaged responding police officer with gunfire. Killed by neighbor who had armed himself with a revolver on hearing the first gunshots.

2008 Winnemucca Nevada - shooter entered Players Bar & Grill, killed two people. He continued to fire at customers who were taking cover until shot and killed by another customer with a concealed pistol.

The lists go on and on. Most never make it beyond the local news because they are stopped prior to it being flashy enough to make the national news. Even at Columbine, the two shooters were engaged by an armed school resource officer who placed himself in a protective position over approximately 30 students as the killers approached a crowded class room and engaged them in an exchange of gunfire, then safely evacuated the students as the shooters retreated.

Numbers still lacking for any real justification for children deaths. I doubt the numbers get close to being even. The numbers never add up in gun rights favour. It's not about facts, figures or even truths. It is about your personal liberties are more important than the safety of the young in your society. The only number that counts seems to be the 2nd one.

 

[DeYaKen]

The NRA doesn't own liberal media outlets.

No, but following every mass shooting, they seem to get air time, (especially when good old Chuck was their spokesman.) where they tell us all that the solution is more people with guns. The thing is, they do not reel off any evidence to back it up.

For the anti-gun lobby, it is easy. They point to countries where guns are tightly restricted and say, "If more guns make a safer society, why do these countries have lower rates of violent crime and almost no incidents of mass killings?"

 

[deanp221]

Places that disarm people but don't provide armed security of their own could be liable for damages. But that goes a little too far maybe. So just leave folks who want to be armed alone? No? Then 15,000 is my serious answer. Go fuck (or more appropriately cuck hardy har) yourselves. Your right to drive kills at least as much (nope way more 30k) a year. And yeah they're not perfectly comparable... billions of miles driven number of actual car owners vs rounds fired per anum or actual number of gunowners or some shit like that. But again serious answer: rights are not up for debate. Sorry not sorry. Same goes for magazine capacity.