I believe I've had this thread coming for a while now

[nushu2]

I feel sorry for women becuase they cannot fart.

If a guy doesn't fart, does that make him a lady?

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

As for your last point, you know as well as I that if we enter that one, we will not only fail to adequately tackle the question, but I will give you an honest opportunity to let slip your "accidental" misogyny in the name of "fairness." I know your style well enough not to enter that one because I don't feel like rage spiraling all week long. My tolerance for misogyny is low enough right now without it going further down. The anecdotal is the strongest, because it is what surrounds and pervades, what is and what shapes, what reveals the most. Statistics are a fool's playgrounds for evil. If I brought out the charts on the near 100% gender stats for male rapists, male perpetrators of assault or violent crimes, male child molesters, male sex crimes. It is nearly always men commiting these horrors, but these do not capture "evil" in a neat box. In truth, it deviates from it into a pathetic attempt to control reality and chaos in the palm of one's hand. The facets do not capture the whole. The evil lurks in the subjective world, in the sexism, in the locker rooms, in the anecdotal conversation world you hate so much. There is the honest belief that women are rag doll fuckbuddies to be used and discarded. There is the sexist language. There is the rhetoric betraying truth. But as I said before, this paragraph is a pointless deviation built to start an argument that will not "logically prove" what it sought to.

For someone "not going into" a point, you talk an awful lot about it. All I can say is that for any proposition that will attempt to elucidate the truth of a natural phenomenon that anecdotal evidence is never the strongest form of evidence and statistics aren't perfectly negligable. Were that the case, science would have never been able to tell us anything about the natural world (including the roles and differences and similarities regarding the genders in people) and we'd still be living in a time where the populace, and apparently people like you, thought that black people really couldn't acheive because objective statistics should be ignored and they're all wild and ignorant by anecdote. But.. hey... you weren't wanting to talk about that.

You frighten me Joe because you are so utterly oblivious. When was the last time you did an honest introspection? Have you ever? Cause...shit, now I feel all bad for you and that's awkward because honestly I despise you more than words could ever express.

Introspection? Every day. A rigorous analysis independant of preference, bias, feeling, emotional content, sentimentality and subjectivity. "Self improvement begins every day" hangs on my wall by my front door--and I believe in it whole-heartedly. I feel bad for you, Luc. You seem to want to make this personal--and I think you should grow up. I don't have anything to say about you as a person, because frankly... that holds absolutely no interest for me. Your points? Your arguments? Those I find interesting. This one I find to be wrong--I'm not the only one, I just seem to be the one saying so in the most direct way.

But anyway, back to what I needed to say. I really feel bad for you right now. Fuck, you never knew, did you? That must suck. I'm not being sarcastic or quippy or whatnot, I'm literally sitting in front of my computer feeling so much pity for you. It's...truthfully, kinda creepy. Uh...what do you say at a time like this? Um...I really hope you someday figure it out and have time to repent.

I don't need your pity, Luc. I'm in a great place with a happy life, and am comforted in the knowledge that you'd rather talk about me than bother defending your ludicrous proposition. It's called "responsibility", Luc. Deal with it.

 

[neonlyte]

Luc

I think you are being a little tough on the gender, that's ok - somtimes you need to pull the debate to the edge to see where the centre ground lies.

I've shared this kind of gender despair and have nothing to say in defence - I/we can only do our bit to redress the balance whilst recognising that not all of the female gender want it to be redressed.

Both sexes have minorities who enjoy the ride along the margin, the risk, the excitement, the danger and the brutality; in a largely patriarchic world we assume men hold all the cards but at least 50% of those cards are played by women.

I had a girlfriend in my teens who two-timed me with the must ugly and brutal thug of our group, when I asked her why, she said - 'because he's everything that you are not'.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I don't think you're "evil" Joe, but I think you have done some things others (including me) would regard as , at the very least, disappointing and beneath you. And I often disagree with you, as you should be well aware by now.

Well, I'm glad you don't think me "evil"--as that would be just.... bizarre. I don't get called "evil" very often. I'm not sure I recall the last time I ever heard anyone called "evil", either.

Most of the time Joe, I regard you as a pretty intelligent guy who can be a real ass at times...which, to be honest, is kinda how I see myself. Although I do think you a have a stubborn streak that really trips you up a lot...you can be pretty self righteous ya know...again, kinda like me.

I can be self-righteous, but only when I think I'm right.

I must admit, my opinion of Luc is pretty high. He says a hell of a lot of things that make sense to me. I think that he is going too far in this case. But I also think that this is part of the personality he chooses to translate to this forum. He lets his extreme thoughts out here, and I have an appreciation for that. I hope that he is less down on his gender in "reality", but I also recognize that there are a hell of a lot of fuckwads out there, and especially at the age that he is likely to be exposed to on a college campus, that fit his descriptions pretty fucking well...

My opinion of Luc is pretty low, honestly. I won't deny that. I have reasons, few of which are polite to say in public and I refuse to make this personal.

I can recognize that there are fuckwads out there... and even a lot. But, I'm afraid that seeing fuckwads on a college campus is not evidence of the male species being somehow naturally more depraved than women. It's bad science, it's poor reasoning, and I don't agree with it.

I'm just suprised that my disagreeing with it somehow makes me blind to the truth.

 

[English Lady]

Luc Love,I kinda guess you just need to have a damn good rant, bitch and general moment of growliness. I ain't gonna agree to your point love, Any person on this earth has the capability to be a complete shithead.

Now i don't know why you decided to attack Joe, no, no I do know why -you don't like him. Fair dinkum. But you've not really gained much respect from me by slinging personal slurs at the guy.

Personally, I reckon you two should ignore each other, you just seem to rub each other up the wrong way!

Anger does strange things to a person and Luc, you should get it out, but watch the personal slurs...it just makes you look bad and you're not.

you make damn good waffles. Waffles for peace if I reember right.

I reckon we need some waffles round here!


Love

EL, Queen of comprimise

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Joe...god I pity you so much.


You want scientific? Here.

You're premise is flawed for the following reasons: 1) I cannot scientifically prove evil to a significant proportion. The closest I could come would be a comparison along the lines of evil you gave i.e. the bringing of pain and suffering onto another. Using arrest data on violent crimes, rapes, molestations, etc. I could show that men are nearly 100% of all offenders in these areas. This argument is however weak and inadequate as it doesn't prove evil. 2) You have misconstrued my point into a way which you believe you can use to "win" some debate game to show how smart you are. For instance: a) my point has nothing to do with whether men are born evil rather than grow evil. In my humble opinion, I believe they are trained into evil by a sociopsychological structure built by older males which rewards misogynistic, violent, and evil behavior and emphasizes the importance of treating women as inferior sex toys. This is an anecdote-based hypothesis however and is impossible to study in any lab experiment or even natural experiment. The only way to study this would be an anthropological study or sociological study which would fall into your "no anecdotes" ban. Well planned if you assumed I was dumb as a brick. b) my point is more focused on the heavy misogyny and crimes against women that women are still willing to forgive for the male sex in general. This can be proven by the previous arrest data records, your history textbooks showing a systematic treatment of women as less than human and chattle, and also by your average feminism textbook which would chart the same grim data. However, it is true that the most persuasive data results from the simple recording of actual male comments and oppositions to female equality and actual male comments about females in general. This is probably because this is sociology not a hard science. 3) You are insisting on a hard science setup on a sociological problem. In sociology, anecdotal is an important part of your data because it provides real world knowledge of a problem that is hard to prove via stats and various databases (such as evil or extreme misogyny and ill-treatment of women). As a philosopher and a grad student of a soft science, you have no doubt encountered this and seen how it has been put to use by people who aren't having a good rant. 4) Your "logical refutation" which completely ignored my post, commited a logical fallacy in itself. It dismissed a different argument and pretended that it therefore dismissed the real argument. I stated that said objective stats would prompt you the debater to find "objective stats" which would be misogynistic in origin and would piss me the fuck off. This would commit a logical fallacy because you would be dismissing an objective dataset (arrest records) with a subjective opinion set posing as a dataset. You however would not care about these fallacies, because you think I'm a foul-mouthed moron. The real subargument, the fact that arrest records show that violent crimes, rapes, domesitc violence, and molestations are significantly perpetrated by men would be ignored while we enter a fallacied loop. This is me extrapolating the techniques you have used every time we've debated.

These are the reasons that our argument will be fruitless. It is ill-conceived and does not follow the order that logic dictates. You are proposing hard science to answer sociological and are quick to use fallacies and misreadings to "dismiss" my arguments. Furthermore, your debate tactics are always underhanded (ref. previous debates esp. noting the oft used technique of: debating a minor subpoint, looping it via minor pieces of subsubpoints, admitting my subpoint in a way that pretends like it was your side or otherwise unimportant, repeating).

As a demonstration of one of my subpoints, your next post will commit the following errors: you will a) admit a subpoint of mine in a way that dismisses me in some irrelevant way, b) misread or fail to read a portion of my work and twist it into a way with which you can have an illusory "upper hand" in the debate, c) commit a logical fallcy, most likely in an attempt to commit b.

I repeat, your "desired argument" is flawed. It is using improper techniques for a sociology question. It ignores key anecdotal and historical data and misinterprets what science means.

I also repeat that your refutation is flawed. It attributes a characteristic my argument didn't have to my argument and then uses (i don't know technical names, but I think it's called a) strawman to "dismiss" it. The real point I made was not that I could not use an objective dataset to prove a closely related but still tangental part of my main argument, but rather that using it would cause you to counter with subjective biased data based again on a false premise which would piss me the Hell off.

I also repeat that the side argument "are men naturally evil?" has little appeal to me. I don't care and furthermore hypothesize that they are not naturally evil, but rather are trained to be evil, though I will entertain the alternative explanation that testosterone or genetic memory could conceivably play some part of the part as dismissing it offhand is simply bad science AND bad sociology (and yes, they are separate, esp in my opinion as I have low respect for inappropriate mixing of hard and soft science).

Thus concludes the logical and scientific portion of tonight's festivities. I however, dully note that this longwinded passage will be thoroughly inadequate despite repetition because frankly, you desire to "win at all costs" including the cost of being correct or accurate. You have little interest in expanding your knowledge, but rather desire to dominate. Any debate with you is flawed at the onset by this fallacy of yours.

And now that we are done with science theatre, I want to say I was dead honest when I said I pity you. I hate you for a myriad of reasons as you no doubt hate me for a myriad of other reasons. Still, I pity you. Chiefly because you spend every day thinking you have done an introspection of yourself and have never allowed yourself to be fully honest. Real introspection comes from examining your emotions, how your mind works, where you are weak, where you are strong, where you have commited wrongs, where you have commited rights, examining desires, examining hates, asking big questions, tough questions, and chiefly of all willing to at least for a moment go all out on yourself and ask yourself if you are a villain. I have done this nearly my entire life and I recognize the sins very well. Self-improvement begins with honesty and humility. Remember that, please. Then I can get back to just hating you instead of pitying you.

 

[Guest]

I feel sorry for women becuase they cannot fart.

Wanna bet?

I love men, especially when they're being evil and nasty and just taking what they want.

We are talking about sex play, right?

 

[English Lady]

....or you could do that

You can't tell someone they're doing their introspection wrong -how do you know they are? Surely it's a personal thing. Do you know exactly what Joe gets from his daily introspection? Does he have to tell the world and his wife exactly what comes of these inner searchings?


Nope. I don't think so.

If you get so wound up about Joe's consistant debating style -Stop debating with Joe. He ain't ever going to change it. He's got a system that works for him and as much as you beg, insult, yell,scream, plead he's not going to stop with the logic and start being personal and emotional in his responses. If you've not gathered it by now, it's not the way Joe operates.

But you want a good fight, thats obvious. So I'll shut up and let you scrap on with it.


Hey Tatelou *waves*

 

[Guest]

I think this is fun.

To me, all of it proves Luc's original statement.

Can you not smell the testosterone? Look at the puffing out of chest feathers. My, my, Joe's got a mighty fine plumage coming out of his arse. Oooh, look at Luc's crest on his head. I'm impressed.

Seriously, boys will be boys and this is the modern-day way of settling disputes: I can argue better than you can, and I can make you look a fool in the process.

This is NOT a dig at anyone, just an observation. Please, don't stop.

It's actually as sexy as hell.

'Ello, EL. *waves back*

 

[English Lady]

I think this is fun.

To me, all of it proves Luc's original statement.

Can you not smell the testosterone? Look at the puffing out of chest feathers. My, my, Joe's got a mighty fine plumage coming out of his arse. Oooh, look at Luc's crest on his head. I'm impressed.

Seriously, boys will be boys and this is the modern-day way of settling disputes: I can argue better than you can, and I can make you look a fool in the process.

This is NOT a dig at anyone, just an observation. Please, don't stop.

It's actually as sexy as hell.

'Ello, EL. *waves back*

Ahhh Good ol' Lou -staring at mens arses and getting turned on, some things never change! *grins*

She makes a good point too. It's the testosterone. I was watching "Secret of the sexes" on the BBC on monday and it really is the testosterone that makes men so competitive.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

....or you could do that

You can't tell someone they're doing their introspection wrong -how do you know they are? Surely it's a personal thing. Do you know exactly what Joe gets from his daily introspection? Does he have to tell the world and his wife exactly what comes of these inner searchings?


Nope. I don't think so.

If you get so wound up about Joe's consistant debating style -Stop debating with Joe. He ain't ever going to change it. He's got a system that works for him and as much as you beg, insult, yell,scream, plead he's not going to stop with the logic and start being personal and emotional in his responses. If you've not gathered it by now, it's not the way Joe operates.

But you want a good fight, thats obvious. So I'll shut up and let you scrap on with it.


Hey Tatelou *waves*

Truthfully I'm done. I have admitted what time has demanded I reveal in the name of honesty. My hatred of Joe, which I might as well admit stems from his existence as the polar opposite of my greatest friend, teacher, and in a non-sexual way love, a proof of my ability to use logic (yeah, so pathetic I still need to "prove" myself to people I hate, so utterly pathetic), a revealing of the darkness in my soul and my weakness against sins of rage, a needed rant on my personal beliefs on men and my astonishment on how women can tolerate our polluted sex, and a brief stint of true honesty.

Tates is right, I have no hope of being as good as the wickedest of women. I rage and fight and snarl inside until it escapes out in vitriol and bile over something they can dismiss with a shrug. It never ceases to amaze. I stand by that sentiment amidst the outcry, amidst the loss of respect, because it is truly honest.

As the title states, I believe I've had this thread coming for a long time. Now is when it has come. I stand by my statements made for good and ill, they are all icily honest, non-tempered, and needed to be said sometime. They are statements that I bit back before because I wasn't sure or I wished to try and be a good enough person to hold them in. They are now out and I gladly bear the consequences.

 

[English Lady]

Truthfully I'm done. I have admitted what time has demanded I reveal in the name of honesty. My hatred of Joe, which I might as well admit stems from his existence as the polar opposite of my greatest friend, teacher, and in a non-sexual way love, a proof of my ability to use logic (yeah, so pathetic I still need to "prove" myself to people I hate, so utterly pathetic), a revealing of the darkness in my soul and my weakness against sins of rage, a needed rant on my personal beliefs on men and my astonishment on how women can tolerate our polluted sex, and a brief stint of true honesty.

Tates is right, I have no hope of being as good as the wickedest of women. I rage and fight and snarl inside until it escapes out in vitriol and bile over something they can dismiss with a shrug. It never ceases to amaze. I stand by that sentiment amidst the outcry, amidst the loss of respect, because it is truly honest.

As the title states, I believe I've had this thread coming for a long time. Now is when it has come. I stand by my statements made for good and ill, they are all icily honest, non-tempered, and needed to be said sometime. They are statements that I bit back before because I wasn't sure or I wished to try and be a good enough person to hold them in. They are now out and I gladly bear the consequences.

*hugs*

 

[impressive]

I can be self-righteous, but only when I think I'm right.

This is priceless.



Luc -- You are adorable for your passion. Women are not flawless, but we certainly appreciate the men who see the goddess in us. Men are not all pigs, either. Certainly, some are -- just as some women are vicious and spiteful. Above all, though, remember that people can change -- and your words/deeds can be a catalyst (for good or ill) of that change.

 

[TheEarl]

All of you women out there, every last one of you, I am shocked and awed by the sheer power of forgiveness in your hearts. I am amazed by the sheer amount of credit you give us men despite all we have done. I am flabbergasted that you haven't locked us in a pen somewhere and started the meat grinder as should be due our fate. After all the insults, the attempted rapes, the molestations, the cheatings, the abandonment of families, the treatment of you all like shit, the treatment of you all like sex toys built for our pleasure, the insistence that being a lesbian means you just haven't found the right man yet, the insistence that we are always the right man for that, the abuse, the power trips, the ego boosts, the treatment of wives as freeloaders and chattle for only keeping a full time job and raise the kids and clean the house and run every little thing and deal with us on our little testosterone kicks, the taking of advantage of every single inebriated woman as if being intoxicated was an invitation for sex, the belief that once we sleep with you we own you, the constant attempt to make you do things you don't want to for our pleasure alone, the running of the world into the ground for our pathetic insignificant power trips, the coddling of our egos, the way we force you to bow before us as Gods, as masters, instead of deluded idiots who think we can control chaos and entropy, the violence, the murders, the rampant fucking unrepentant evil you still have the unbelievable heart to fight only for egalitarianism.

I'm a man and I want to waste all of us and hand you the key to the world and yet you still believe we somehow have merit, that we can be forgiven for these sins, that we're not all bad, that you are somehow in some inconceivably "as bad as us in some small little way". It boggles my mind constantly and unerringly, but breeds a deeper respect than I could ever hope to put into words. You are truly goddesses for putting up with men's shit as long as you have, smiling as they tried to remake you as Barbie Porno Princess and her bisexual friends and stick you with the bill. You are better than any man in the history of the world can ever hope to be.

Truly we don't deserve it. Seriously, we don't and will never.

Fuck's sake Luc!

If you want to tell the world that you are a waste of space, that you are the ultimate evil, that you treat women like shit and deserve to be punished for all eternity then you can go right ahead.

But don't you dare insult me by accusing me in that list of crimes against humanity that you've labelled all men with.


Do you not realise that you have just accused me of being the absolute worst thing I can think of? You have just effectively told me and rgraham and all the other decent guys in here that we are utterly disgusting and that we all act in exactly the same, disgusting manner.

I don't know what issues you have with our sex, what horrible things you might have seen in your time, or what has driven you to this opinion. But if you ever dare call me a cheating, mysogynistic, violent, chauvanistic, misanthropic, amoral prick again, I will lose what little respect I have left for you.

The Earl

 

[raphy]

Not that I particularly want to jump in on this explosive keg of a thread, but I guess I have two things to say. One of them is short and sweet, and is a quote I read somewhere, although I forget where. It's always stuck in my mind, and it's appropriate here.

"If it weren't for a woman's capacity to forgive, the human race would have died out long ago."

The second is a little more involved.

I'm not exactly 100% on Luc's side. However, I do reckon he's got a point.

Who amongst us is blameless of the sins of misogyny? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and I am sure that Luc would be the first to admit that he's the same as the rest of us - But what he said had to be said.

No, like most of us out there, I feel that I'm a pretty decent guy. I act well towards my fellow man, most of the time like I'd like to be treated myself. I'm a good husband and step-father, or at least I try to be. I help old ladies across the road. I yield at intersections. I pay my taxes, and I'm never cruel to animals.

But - And I think this is what may have riled some men up - In my dealings with women, I can't claim to be pure as the snow. I don't know of a single man who can.

You see, this is why I said that while I'm not on Luc's side, he does have a point. The problem is, Luc's definition of the "non-misogynist" is too extreme. Too perfect. Maybe it's an ideal to strive for. Maybe it's not, because half of the things he talks about, women do to us men too.

But then maybe two wrongs don't make a right.

There's a song by Collin Raye called "I Think About You". It's written about his daughter and it deals with the way men not only treat, but also with the way they *view* women

Here's some snippets:

Everytime I see a woman on a billboard sign
I think about you
Saying "drink this beer and you'll be mine"
I think about you

When I see a pretty woman walking down the street
I think about you
Men look her up and down like she's some kind of treat
I think about you

Eight years old
big blue eyes and a heart of gold
When I look at this world, I think about you
And I can't help but see
that every woman used to be
Somebody's little girl

And y'know. He's right. Every woman on a billboard sign, every woman draped across the front of a fancy car. Every woman with a nice ass that walks down the street that makes you say "Nice ass - I'd love a piece of that."

Even if you say it to yourself. Or you go home and masturbate about it, using her as fantasy fodder. I do it. All men do it. You show me a man who, when he sees a good looking woman, doesn't wonder what she'd be like in bed, and I'll show you a liar or a homosexual. Just remember. Every woman in the world was once somebody's little girl, and do you want people thinking those things about *your* daughter?

But Raph, I hear you cry, that's natural! Besides, women do it to us! Women think the same thing about men. I have female friends that say things like "God, what I wouldn't do to that man."

Aaah, and I'm not disagreeing with you.

And I'm not imposing my personal level of morality upon anyone here - I'm not even revealing what it is - I'm no hypocrit. I'm simply trying to say that in the most extreme definition of misogyny.. Luc has a point, we're all guilty of it.

Whether that's a bad thing or not, I leave as an exercise for the reader to decide

 

[rgraham666]

Confused here, raphy.

Are you saying that to think of a woman in a sexual way at anytime is misogyny?

Certainly, I can see your points about women and the promise of sex with them being used to sell consumer goods. And does that sort of advertising bug the hell out of me!

But I don't see how admiring the beauty and sensuality of a woman makes me misogynist.

 

[Guest]

All of you women out there, every last one of you, I am shocked and awed by the sheer power of forgiveness in your hearts. I am amazed by the sheer amount of credit you give us men despite all we have done. I am flabbergasted that you haven't locked us in a pen somewhere and started the meat grinder as should be due our fate. After all the insults, the attempted rapes, the molestations, the cheatings, the abandonment of families, the treatment of you all like shit, the treatment of you all like sex toys built for our pleasure, the insistence that being a lesbian means you just haven't found the right man yet, the insistence that we are always the right man for that, the abuse, the power trips, the ego boosts, the treatment of wives as freeloaders and chattle for only keeping a full time job and raise the kids and clean the house and run every little thing and deal with us on our little testosterone kicks, the taking of advantage of every single inebriated woman as if being intoxicated was an invitation for sex, the belief that once we sleep with you we own you, the constant attempt to make you do things you don't want to for our pleasure alone, the running of the world into the ground for our pathetic insignificant power trips, the coddling of our egos, the way we force you to bow before us as Gods, as masters, instead of deluded idiots who think we can control chaos and entropy, the violence, the murders, the rampant fucking unrepentant evil you still have the unbelievable heart to fight only for egalitarianism.

I'm a man and I want to waste all of us and hand you the key to the world and yet you still believe we somehow have merit, that we can be forgiven for these sins, that we're not all bad, that you are somehow in some inconceivably "as bad as us in some small little way". It boggles my mind constantly and unerringly, but breeds a deeper respect than I could ever hope to put into words. You are truly goddesses for putting up with men's shit as long as you have, smiling as they tried to remake you as Barbie Porno Princess and her bisexual friends and stick you with the bill. You are better than any man in the history of the world can ever hope to be.

Truly we don't deserve it. Seriously, we don't and will never.

Hang on a goddam cotton-fucking-picking minute...

I'm fully awake now, and no longer just being flippant in the face of argument.

I actually find all that spiel above to be incredibly patronising. Who says we "put up with" anything!? Who says that we can't be the most manipulative and deceitful creatures on Earth? Who says that we don't use sex to get whatever we damn well like?

Who says we need your thanks for doing anything?

We're human; you're human. None of us are perfect, but we love each other all the same.

In my varied experience, MOST men, the VAST MAJORITY of men, are good and caring, loving souls. Yes, they have "impure thoughts" about the opposite sex, but who the hell doesn't!?

I believe that women get away with a lot more than men do, at times, because we are the "fairer sex". Sexual harassment? Women do it to men, too, a hell of a lot, but men, on the whole, shrug it off. Women, generally, get all angsty and arsey about it (please, before I get jumped on, I don't mean to make light of what is sometimes a very serious issue - just making a point).

Women need to feel empowered (I damn well do!), not be showered with sympathy, admiration and thanks.

When it comes to sex, I believe that ultimately women hold all the power, no matter what the dynamics of the relationship are, and that is a quite heady thing.

Get a grip, you evil bastard!!!!

Lou

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Truly we don't deserve it. Seriously, we don't and will never.

No, you don't. But who says we really DO forgive and forget? What if we're just keeping a straight face while we're secretely plotting your doom behind your backs?

 

[TheEarl]

Confused here, raphy.

Are you saying that to think of a woman in a sexual way at anytime is misogyny?

Certainly, I can see your points about women and the promise of sex with them being used to sell consumer goods. And does that sort of advertising bug the hell out of me!

But I don't see how admiring the beauty and sensuality of a woman makes me misogynist.

Seconded.

As for a man who is completely blameless in his dealings with women, I will put forward Snoop Dog. Unless he has some dark secret, I cannot see anything that he has done in his dealings with women which could be considered anything less than gentlemanly.

And I'm baffled as to how he has just been classified as a soulless evildoer just by dint of having a penis. If the argument in question is that a lot or even most men are bastards, then I could see the point. But the actual tone of this thread was stating categorically that all men are bastards who are half a drink away from punching out the nearest woman and dragging her back to his cave by the hair.

The Earl

 

[raphy]

Confused here, raphy.

Are you saying that to think of a woman in a sexual way at anytime is misogyny?

Certainly, I can see your points about women and the promise of sex with them being used to sell consumer goods. And does that sort of advertising bug the hell out of me!

RG, I think in the purest definition of the word, yes.

However, like I said - *I* am not accusing anyone of being "bad" or "evil" for doing such. As I also said, women are as bad about that as men. That's kinda what my last line was about - Leaving it to the reader to decide whether that was a good or bad thing.

Remember, ideally, I'm a moderate, and I don't hold truck with any extremist views.

I was just trying to clarify this particular extremist view so that we could knock it down

But I don't see how admiring the beauty and sensuality of a woman makes me misogynist.

Admiring, maybe not. But there's a real fine line here, right? Where does 'admiring' end and 'I wanna fuck her' start?

Anyway, I'm just arguing that point for the sake of being devil's advocate, so I apologize. My position as a moderate has been made fairly clear, so you know (I hope) that I'm not accusing you of any moral wrongdoings.

Y'know, it's difficult being a moderate and the devil's advocate at the same time

 

[TheEarl]

No, you don't. But who says we really DO forgive and forget? What if we're just keeping a straight face while we're secretely plotting your doom behind your backs?

Harry Potter sucks.

Just keeping your vitriol levels up.

The Earl

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Harry Potter sucks.

Just keeping your vitriol levels up.

The Earl

See HP book 6 discussion thread for my answer to this...

 

[raphy]

Oh, one other thing.

Men. We should be lauded and applauded for forgiving women of their sins. Women, who lie, cheat and steal to get ahead. Women who play soccer with men's hearts (and loins) to get what they want. Women who use their body to advance their careers, despite having all the talent of a dead goldfish.

Women, who know that their body is a weapon that men do not have, can wield great power simply by influencing a man of great power. Women who love you for a year, then take your house, your car and most of your paycheck when they leave to move onto their next victim. Goddamn golddiggers. Bitchy and catty women to whom no act is too low in order to achieve social success.

Women who sleep around when their husband is away simply because "they're lonely"

No, I don't actually agree with any of that crap - I just thought it might be fun to post the opposite argument. There's probably more sins of women that I can't think of right now, but I figure that's a start

 

[Guest]

Seconded.

As for a man who is completely blameless in his dealings with women, I will put forward Snoop Dog. Unless he has some dark secret, I cannot see anything that he has done in his dealings with women which could be considered anything less than gentlemanly.

And I'm baffled as to how he has just been classified as a soulless evildoer just by dint of having a penis. If the argument in question is that a lot or even most men are bastards, then I could see the point. But the actual tone of this thread was stating categorically that all men are bastards who are half a drink away from punching out the nearest woman and dragging her back to his cave by the hair.

The Earl

I have a feeling that's where Luc was going with this (most men) but he's having some deep and dark moments about himself or others.

I don't think he's trying to alienate all men or patronise all woman.


That being said, like Lou, I do love the power that women possess.

I love how my husband and I will be talking and I'll accidently lean forward and take a deep breath, or I'll shift slightly so my skirt rides up and my thighs are exposed. I love how his eyes will glaze over and his words will stumble, how he'll actually lose the point of what he was saying.

That's real power, baby.

 

[TheEarl]

Admiring, maybe not. But there's a real fine line here, right? Where does 'admiring' end and 'I wanna fuck her' start?

Just out of interest: What's wrong with 'I wanna fuck her'? Lust is something natural and, as long as you are not lusting after other women while you are attached and as long as you don't take advantage of the woman you lust after, I don't see a problem.

Hell, I'd say lust is a key part of every new relationship. Not the only part, but definitely significant.

The Earl