I believe I've had this thread coming for a while now

[Joe Wordsworth]

I should say that I am very tempted to respond, but I have been asked politely not to--so as not to further any bad will or anything. I won't say anything new except to say that my original dissention to this thread's point (stated in my original post) stands as my response without need for correction or editorializing. I believe the point of men being more horrid than women (and certainly to the degree mentioned, and certaintly for the obviously bias slant given) is incorrect and poorly substantiated.

I will say that Luc, you need to get over me. I don't hate you, I've never hated you--I just don't like you. If you feel "hate" or "pity" or whatever other overly-dramatic self-egrandizing thing, you need to take a step back and seriously grow out of it. This isn't a schoolyard, and nobody is picking on you. Stop taking things so seriously.

 

[TheEarl]

I have to say that I disagree with you as well Svenska. I am no example to anyone else. I do not wish to be, except in the exception of any children I may have. A man who sets himself up as a paradigm or an example to others will find Frank Herbert's little rhyme good to remember: 'Here lies a toppled God, his fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal, a narrow and a tall one.'

It is not for me to lead other men. It is for them to find their own moral compass and follow it where they may.

You say that we decent men should help women against the jerks of the world and I think you'll find that we do - we hold you when you cry, we listen to you talk for hours after he's screwed you over and we help you hold it together. Then, as a rule, we generally watch you go out with another wanker.

Nice guys do finish last, generally because (in my experience), women talk of wanting one thing and then promptly go out and get themselves a fixer-upper.

I am definitely not with the jerks, as can be seen from how insulted I was by Luc's post. However I do not see it as my position to change the world. I merely focus on being a good man and trust in God for the rest.

The Earl

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I merely focus on being a good man and trust in God for the rest.

The Earl

My father always said that the most important thing in the world was just doing the right thing, as often as you can and everytime, because in the end--that's all anyone can expect out of you.

 

[Liar]

Damn, what an interresting little monster of a thread I have missed. I salute you, Luc, for starting it and posting your heart out. You're propbably not wrong, but it will take one hell of a perspective shift to get into the core of it, and I'm too weary.

Me, I love all kinds of people, and try my best to be a good person, actively intervening against evil wherever I see it. (And if I dare, I must confess.) My head is too small to incorpoprate group conscioussness, structural guilt and demographic responsibility. I'll settle for the love and forgiveness of those I have personally hurt. Which is, however I twist and turn it, too many already.

#L

ps. Svenska, I don't walk about in the buff very often. Only then does it swing.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Do you know what we talk about when there aren't women around? Do you know how much pleasure most men get out of watching you bleed and suffer, out of forcing you to do things you don't want? Do you know what gets respect in the male world?

We want to rape you in the ass until you bleed to death. We brag about raping passed out drunk chicks as if it was something to be proud of as long as they were hot. We rank ourselves on our ability to dupe women into being sex toys. And that's just the minor evil.

Dear one, you really must get some new male friends. Where are you that this is the current status of all masculinity? Drop by the stable some time, and I will introduce you to some nice lads with considerably different aspirations in life. I promise. And some of them aren't even horses.

Shanglan

 

[Willow Rain]

Lc

Let's be brutally honest. We arn't all so sweet and yeilding. You probably would be equally horrified if you knew how women privately talked about men. Many women sheild men from the darker sides of the feminine nature, thinking them too weak to be able to withstand it. They actually beleive that men are uncapable of dealing with the reality that women are their equals in both the good and the bad ways. There are a fair number of women who would probably quite happily stand over you and watch you bleed, or fuck you up the ass when you were passed out and tell their friends. It is a mistake to think that women arn't capable of brutality or evil. We are. To be totally frank with you if I had to have a man or a woman as an enimy I would chose the man.

What would he do? Hit me? Yell at me? kill me? rape? Some blunt act of violance as revenge.

Make the wrong woman mad, make her your true enimy, she won't want you dead, she will want you to suffer. She won't want you just to suffer, she'll want you to watch everything around you die, rot and falter. She'll want you to beg to die. It's a whole other space. I know there are men that are vindictive on that kind of level, but I've seen it more in women.

Part of making the box small for women is putting that kind of label on them, sweet, good nice. Don't buy that, don't be so silly or short sighted. Look deeper. We are smaller and not as pysically strong, (in general) but that doesn't mean we arn't hella smart and just as dark and twisted as men. Women rape their children, boil their toe nails off, kill there spouses. Hell the whole reason female genital mutilation has held on so hard and been so difficult to change is that the women of the older generations don't want it to.

I know you intend well LC, and mean to compliment, but don't underestimate me. Don't offer me a small box to fit in. The world is a very complicated place.

The undercurrent of your words, that I liked and that I wanted to encourage you about, was that you clearly like women. And that is a wonderful thing, I'm glad you like us. But leave room, leave room to know and accept all the aspects of womanhood not just hte pretty pink sparkly ones. It will give me room and every other woman you know, room to be more authentic with you.

(retucks in her Kali arms and pops her tounge back in her mouth)

 

[BlackShanglan]

Nice guys do finish last, generally because (in my experience), women talk of wanting one thing and then promptly go out and get themselves a fixer-upper.

Beware the dangerous territory you enter into with that phrase. First, it's poison to every woman I know - they run a mile. Second, it sounds horribly like sour grapes, whether it's meant to or not. And third and most dangerous, I've never heard it from someone who is as nice as he thinks he is (from an outsider's objective perspective) - although happy, of course, to be wrong in the present example. That is, I'm sure you are quite nice, but using that phrase will associate you with people who are not.

The "nicest" men I know, if one must use the phrase - the stable, kind, generous, respectful ones without police records or flashy personality disorders - are all (or were all, prior to passing on to greater things) happily married or in pleasant relationships. The biggest "player" I've ever known is alone and waiting tables at a Denny's for a career, last I heard of him. The biggest "geek" nice-guy of my acquaintance, a genuinely wonderful person who was saddled with a rather hobbitish appearance and a persistant difficulty with, to put it delicately, individual fragrance, is married to a lovely woman he met while volunteering at a local cat rescue.

I've any number of cousins, male and female, and the pattern is quite clear amongst them. The one left who hasn't married is a hard-drinking party boy and a racist. The quiet insurance salesman who has always been dependable, responsible, and "nice" is married with a lovely family - and is the brother of our last bachelor. And the whole clan of females in one family - aunt and both female cousins - have married men so charming, generous, and kind that my uncle once opined that if his sister hadn't married Jack, he would have had to just to keep the man in the family. Another uncle is a tech "geek" who spent his navy shore-leave in Japan at a traditional rural inn recommended by the cultural liaison while his mates were out whoring the metropolis. He's been married the best part of his life to his high school sweetheart and every time I see them they are laughing and having an amazing time of it.

I may be older than our good Earl, and so see things differently. Certainly there's a time when women chase after wild young men - and men chase after wild young women. The key thing to remember is that it's where nice lads finish, not where they are out of the starting gate, that tends to matter the most. It's good to have fun and a few hectic flings while one is young, but then there's all the rest of life to be lived. It's worth planning for.

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

The "nicest" men I know, if one must use the phrase - the stable, kind, generous, respectful ones without police records or flashy personality disorders - are all (or were all, prior to passing on to greater things) happily married or in pleasant relationships. The biggest "player" I've ever known is alone and waiting tables at a Denny's for a career, last I heard of him. The biggest "geek" nice-guy of my acquaintance, a genuinely wonderful person who was saddled with a rather hobbitish appearance and a persistant difficulty with, to put it delicately, individual fragrance, is married to a lovely woman he met while volunteering at a local cat rescue.



Shanglan

Same goes for all the blokes I know, too.

I cannot stand it when men say "nice guys finish last", cos it's complete and utter bollocks! Sorry, Earl.

The best (read: nicest) guys I know are very happily married/attached. In fact, I know hardly any "not so nice" guys, and those I do know are miserable shits who are wasting their lives.

 

[rgraham666]

Sorry to disagree with two of my favourite people here. But my experience has been that being a nice guy is only a minor matter when it comes to women choosing their mates.

I do my best to be a nice person. Don't always succeed, but I try. And women will admit that I am a nice guy.

However, I don't have much of a future and that weighs heavily against me.

Due to both my illness and my upbringing my behaviour is often a little strange. That's something few women can get by.

I don't come across as strong and women, whether they will admit it or not, like strong. It's why so many women end up with right bastards. Viciousness is often mistaken for strength.

And I simply don't have the ability to raise powerful emotions in women. "We'll always be friends" or "I love you like a brother" are phrases I've heard far too often. No woman, so far as I know, has ever looked at me and had a strong surge of lust run through her, not even my ex-wife.

If nice counted for much I wouldn't have spent so much of my life alone.

 

[raphy]

Two different points here.

The first, dealing with the phenomenon in adult life.

It's a stereotype, and like all stereotypes it has its flaws and its supporting evidence.

The 'phrase' nice guys finish last is a substitute for the real problem, which is that some women always seem to be attracted to the wrong sort of man, the wife-beater, the adulterer, etc etc.

Men, often nice men who feel an attraction to the woman in question, observe this behavior and wonder two things:

1) Why does she keep doing that?
2) Why doesn't she like me?

There's no sour grapes here. Or at least, I'm giving the men the benefit of the doubt and assuming there's not.

They come to the conclusion that since they're the nice one, and he's the evil one, nice guys must forever finish last. Obviously, empirical evidence (the number of happily married nice guys) tells us that it must not always be so.

Unfortunately, logic doesn't always seem to matter very much, when the woman whom you think is the woman of you dreams is dating a string of losers.

The thing I'd say to someone who feels that way is (And I'm not specifically talking atcha Earl, but take this tidbit if you wish) .. It's not about you.

It's not even about the jerkoff she's currently dating.

It's about her.

It's about the woman and her needs, her desires and what *she* wants, consciously and subconsciously. The reasons that make women pick .. unsuitable .. partners are legion and varied, and like most of our adult actions are strongly shaped by our childhood. Did she come from a broken home? Was her father abusive to her? To her mother? Did she not even have a father figure in her life as a child?

If all she ever saw as a child was her parents yelling at each other and dad coming home drunk and beating on her mom, then *subconsciously* it will be drilled into her that that is the way a relationship is supposed to be. I know this. I used to work at a crisis support center, and I've talked to many, many women who were in abusive relationships.

So no, it's no you. It's her. She needs help, and then she can help herself by kicking the asshole and realizing that relationships *can* be happy.

The second part of the myth stems from what we learn about relationships as adolescents. Many women and girls are attracted to the image of the strong man, the provider. A big, powerful guy who can protect and provide for his family. He's strong-willed, independant, a little bit rebellious and dangerous. He's all the things that "men" are supposed to be.

Well-balanced adult women (i.e. not the ones I talked about earlier) are smart enough to know that you can get that in a nice guy. Adolescent teenage girls are not. Teenaged girls don't have the social awareness to differentiate between the Han Solos who have a sexy rebellious streak in them but are basically decent people, and the other kind - The ones who grow up to be wife-beaters and abusers.

God knows, at 15 I couldn't tell the difference either. All I knew was that I was a nice kid and I couldn't get a date if my life depended on it, and all of the guys I knew who were assholes, who drunk too early, smoked pot and did all the things they weren't supposed to, they got laid more than I had hot dinners.

But girls learn - Or at least, most of them do. And when they become women they realize that having a good man means that you end up with a life that may not have the momentary highs of a life of excitement with a bad boy, but somehow it adds up to more in the end.

And then us nice guys don't finish last. We get to finish, which is more than the jerks your first teenage crush dated back in highschool do.

I've made some really truly nasty generalizations in this post, and they're probably gonna come back and bite me in the ass, but ah well, isn't that what the internet is for? Making broad, sweeping generalizations about people you don't even know?

*grins*

 

[Guest]

Or, some women want (and even have) the best of both worlds?



I am NOT spelling that out!

 

[raphy]

Or, some women want (and even have) the best of both worlds?



I am NOT spelling that out!

I wrote 3 gazillion words and you summed it up in a dozen.

And you're right. Dammit.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I don't think it's as simple as "nice guys finishing last". At least, I've little reason to think "horrible guys finish first" and have to back-rationalize the rest.

I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy--the world is not exactly composed of nice and not-nice guys, strictly speaking. And we may be confusing other variables.

I think uninteresting guys finish last, I think shy guys finish last, I think inexperienced guys finish last (when paired against "interesting", "confidant", and "experienced' guys respectively) and I think that most of the inexperienced, shy, and off-the-main sorts of guys I know all consider themselves "nice guys"--which only further adds to the stigma that "nice guys finish last", even though "nice-ness" isn't the real factor.

It is my experience, and my experience is only good for personal observation and hardly absolute law or even necessarily likely, that many of the sorts of guys who believe themselves on the bad end of the "nice guy finishing last' problem really have OTHER problems, not the least of which is just personal confidence.

 

[Liar]

I think uninteresting guys finish last, I think shy guys finish last, I think inexperienced guys finish last (when paired against "interesting", "confidant", and "experienced' guys respectively) and I think that most of the inexperienced, shy, and off-the-main sorts of guys I know all consider themselves "nice guys"--which only further adds to the stigma that "nice guys finish last", even though "nice-ness" isn't the real factor.

It is my experience, and my experience is only good for personal observation and hardly absolute law or even necessarily likely, that many of the sorts of guys who believe themselves on the bad end of the "nice guy finishing last' problem really have OTHER problems, not the least of which is just personal confidence.

Definitely. I can vouch for that. I've always finished last in this strange game of dating, dodging and so on. Why? Because I didn't even enter the race. Never walked up to the girl and said hi. Never dared to flirt. I'm not a shy guy in general, but in that aspect, I'm flat out sociophobic. My nice-ness or not had nothing to do with it, but my faulty image that "it's no use trying, I'll just lose anyway, because nice guys finish last". It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Most often they do finish last because they think they will.

Last but not least, remember this: Nice guys may finish last, but we also last longer.

 

[Guest]

Definitely. I can vouch for that. I've always finished last in this strange game of dating, dodging and so on. Why? Because I didn't even enter the race. Never walked up to the girl and said hi. Never dared to flirt. I'm not a shy guy in general, but in that aspect, I'm flat out sociophobic. My nice-ness or not had nothing to do with it, but my faulty image that "it's no use trying, I'll just lose anyway, because nice guys finish last". It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Most often they do finish last because they think they will.

Last but not least, remember this: Nice guys may finish last, but we also last longer.

And three cheers for a long-lasting guy.

 

[AppleBiter]

Dear one, you really must get some new male friends. Where are you that this is the current status of all masculinity? Drop by the stable some time, and I will introduce you to some nice lads with considerably different aspirations in life. I promise. And some of them aren't even horses.

Shanglan

Shang, you rock.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

My take on the "nice guys finish last" stems from (at the risk of yet again offended the handful of poor bastards who actually have the balls to resist the Cult of Misogyny) a misinterpretation spread out by the Cult of Misogyny.

Let me explain. Your average "nice guy" is in fact merely a male who has rejected the Cult of Misogyny and the Horde and puts his efforts in atoning for their sins. As such, he is unlikely to partake in such Cult of Misogyny games such as the aever-so-popular "how many empty 'wasting love' sexcapades can I engage in to up my image in men I would never want to befriend in the first place?" He is more likely to treat sex as, oh I don't know, an actual representation of love or *gasp* like something emotionally meaningful instead of glorified masturbation. Without emotional respect and emotional investment, sex becomes little more than a new way to get your rocks off with extra risk (and the porn site turns as one and devours my head (hey it's piss off the entire community week here at LC Studios)). Your shining example of the male sex is more willing to engage in this empty behavior, devote his entire resources to this empty behavior, do it with less respect to the emotional elements of a sexual encounter, and take more advantage of confounding factors to get to the "creamy center" as he sees it. He will also do a buckshot campaign (target a large number of women in a short amount of time until one accepts).

Your average "nice guy" or objector to the Cult of Misogyny is less likely to do that and will often wait until the emotional component is set before bringing up a relationship. Similarily, most "nice guys" seek an emotionally fulfilling and co-dependent lifelong relationship versus a one-night stand. Speaking to those who can honestly attribute a "nice guy" lifestyle to themselves, how many girls have you asked out in the last year? The number will be much smaller than the Horde of Men. Mostly because you actively consider the emotions of the woman beforehand, don't want to impose upon her like the hyper-agressive Men around you, and etc... In distancing from the Male existence and the Cult of Misogyny, you, the "nice guy", begin with multiple disadvantages: 1) the desire to distance from the Cult, 2) the tactics of the Cult, 3) the low frequency of pursuits based on a seeking of love versus pure fulfillment of lust (not demonizing fulfillment of lust or its importance in a love relationship), and 4) the stereotype spread by the Cult that men are the strong and righteous pursuers and that women are the pursuees and that any woman who pursues is a dirty whore who deserves whatever happens to her including rape unto death and corpse mutilation (yeah there's an impetus for the woman to seek you out on her own).

However, I must point out that "nice guys" blaming women for their lack of success is unfortunately a carry-over from the Cult of Misogyny, a bitter expectation for the woman to drop everything and solve your needs or not be a human being herself with her own desires and mistakes. The "nice guys", the resisters, are a tiny majority among the flotsam of male Cultists and do not make an effort to stand out.

On top of that, they are often undistinguishable at first glance to the Faux "Nice Guy" Cultist or the Delayed Cultist. The Faux "Nice Guy" poses as a "nice guy" for the sole purpose of getting into women's pants (ideally virgins) and then dropping them. The Delayed Cultist is someone who seems like a "nice guy" at first but later becomes indistinguishable from the average male except with a controlling aspect that believes that since the woman slept with him or showed him attention, he now owns her body and soul.

Earl, snoop, and rgraham are so gonna kick my ass for this (as they probably should (but no seriously guys, you put up a shitload of effort into atoning for the sins of your breathern and resisting the Cult of Misogyny)), but to be a "nice guy", to truly resist all the sins of the major male and its sinews eeling through all of society, one must be ever-vigilant against the "natural" inclination to blame women, make sexist comments, or believe that women are anything less than human. They're less evil than us (despite protestations from the female camp (seriously, the worst offenses of the female world not only pale in comparison to the male world but almost universally result from the expectations of the male world e.g. cat fights, popular girls/fashion clubs, vendettas, starvation and masochism (otherwise known as fashion), etc.)), but they also make mistakes and have needs and despite having an unbelievable forgiveness, cannot always be counted on to throw themselves in the boiling oil of the male world to find you and notice your difference and interest and risk the ire of the Cult to pursue you. And sometimes bad things will happen to you in the dating world from women. And often you'll be lonely and the Cult will look inviting and warm, but that's the lie, the painful result of being the few poor saps in a sea of demons. "Nice Guys" have to bear it, because they are the atoners for a diseased sex, the resisters of a polluted ideology. It's the price for having a soul.

And the sound you just heard was the impending missile strike from the "nice guy" community and frankly anyone on this site. The remaining bits and pieces of the entity formerly known as Lucifer_Carroll belatedly states that no true offense is meant by any of it, he a) notices and applauds the efforts made by the "nice guy" and striving to be "nice guy" community, bully for you, b) makes no judgement value on recreational sex (as long as participants consider the emotional) or the need to, oh say, have a good orgasm to keep from going insane (he however does make a value-judgement on those who use it like a glorified version of a masturbation aid, shame), and c) does not and has never considered women weak for "putting up" with it, but strong and forgiving for resisting the urge to beat us all to death with claw hammers and give us males a fair shake.


P.S. Shang, I perhaps have been too long a denizen of the college world and the young adult world in general. I'm a good background figure and often like working outdoors on writing works. As such I am oft privvy to the overheard machinations of my fellow man. That and the lovely activity prevalent in the party areas and the area where I reside as well as the actions and attitudes relayed through the news stories and political battles have helped shape my outlook. Ears open, the world is revealed resonating one note. I'd like to believe I am not truly friends with any male whose values I despise, who does not strive to resist the Cult, but irony would love it too much if I made the statement an absolute.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Direct quote from my sister...

"It's true, nice guys really do finish last--but what we mean by 'nice guy' is 'poor abused puppy-dog gun-shy i'm-going-to-be-your-buddy-and-badmouth- all-those-men-you-hate-while-telling-you-you're-perfect kind of guy'. Those guys finish last, because who wants to date a boy their whole life when there are good men out there?"

 

[Willow Rain]

Lc

Wow, I feel profoundly unheard.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Let's be brutally honest. We arn't all so sweet and yeilding. You probably would be equally horrified if you knew how women privately talked about men. Many women sheild men from the darker sides of the feminine nature, thinking them too weak to be able to withstand it. They actually beleive that men are uncapable of dealing with the reality that women are their equals in both the good and the bad ways. There are a fair number of women who would probably quite happily stand over you and watch you bleed, or fuck you up the ass when you were passed out and tell their friends. It is a mistake to think that women arn't capable of brutality or evil. We are. To be totally frank with you if I had to have a man or a woman as an enimy I would chose the man.

What would he do? Hit me? Yell at me? kill me? rape? Some blunt act of violance as revenge.

Make the wrong woman mad, make her your true enimy, she won't want you dead, she will want you to suffer. She won't want you just to suffer, she'll want you to watch everything around you die, rot and falter. She'll want you to beg to die. It's a whole other space. I know there are men that are vindictive on that kind of level, but I've seen it more in women.

Part of making the box small for women is putting that kind of label on them, sweet, good nice. Don't buy that, don't be so silly or short sighted. Look deeper. We are smaller and not as pysically strong, (in general) but that doesn't mean we arn't hella smart and just as dark and twisted as men. Women rape their children, boil their toe nails off, kill there spouses. Hell the whole reason female genital mutilation has held on so hard and been so difficult to change is that the women of the older generations don't want it to.

I know you intend well LC, and mean to compliment, but don't underestimate me. Don't offer me a small box to fit in. The world is a very complicated place.

The undercurrent of your words, that I liked and that I wanted to encourage you about, was that you clearly like women. And that is a wonderful thing, I'm glad you like us. But leave room, leave room to know and accept all the aspects of womanhood not just hte pretty pink sparkly ones. It will give me room and every other woman you know, room to be more authentic with you.

(retucks in her Kali arms and pops her tounge back in her mouth)

For what it's worth, I think you're a better judge of what women are or aren't. Well said.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Wow, I feel profoundly unheard.

I'd like to believe that I don't indulge entirely in the belief that women are flawless, that no woman has ever committed evil, no woman has ever repeated the sins of the weaker sex (males). I have after all been through the public school system, I know about the popular girls, the fashion club. I'd certainly also like to believe that I am not inadvertantly perpetuating the myth that women are weaker, unable to defend themselves, etc...

If I am or seem to be, I'm greatly sorry. I realize that my viewpoint is at odds with yours. From what I have seen I have trouble believing that women have an adequate counterpoint to the Cult of Misogyny. The isolated evil of the women cannot compare with the systematic and ingrained evil and self-centeredness of my fellow males. I also have seen that much of the "evils" of women, the nastiness, the shredding, stems from conformation to the Misogynist ideal (the one where women starve, hurt, and shatter the self-esteem of each other and themselves in order to best emulate bisexual Barbie and be placed on the sex toy pedastal).

The act of being condescending greatly considered another vice of the Cult of Misogyny, I'd like to apologize if my posts contain that air. It is not meant to sound that way or be in any way just some lousy "yeah, girl power" pathetic cry. It is my honest feelings on the matter, my experiences watching the Cult of Misogyny, and my honest respect for women for not sounding like me, for being egalitarian and equivocal like yourself. You state that women are just as evil, but the honest truth is that while some may be, the overwhelming majority are not, whereas in men the reverse is true. Furthermore it seems to me that female evils sprout from the ill-conceived attempt to curry the male favor of the Cultists.

This is my opinion. This is what I have seen and chronicled. You are not unheard, but we are unlikely to agree and frankly, you not agreeing further demonstrates my point on how women show up men by not hating them despite their ills, despite how they have shaped the world to their pleasure. That's incredibly classy and astonishing in my opinion and why I posted this thread.

In polite disagreement,
Lucifer_Carroll

 

[Willow Rain]

Lc

I think you are setting yourself up as a man who is very hard to say some things to actually. My impression is that you have structured for yourself a set of beleifs that make sense to you, polorized the sexes, one good, one bad. That is so hugely simplistic, and when it comes to human nature things are rarely simple.

It is very human to sometimes be vile. To get angry. To make mistakes. To lash out. None of us, I would imagine have made it to maturity without a few acts that were unkind that we regret.

I don't know what your life has been like. I will tell you honestly that I was raised by a family full of loving, good men(and women). I have a husband who supports me in all I explore and do. I am blessed.

Taking the stand you do, you leave no room for many things. The idea of equality and modern feminism is that there are more options, not just one new option.

If you were a person I knew in rl, there would be so many things I would NEVER say to you, because of the judgement I would expect from you because of the beleif system you cling to. I am a woman who in her youth was involved with men and women, both submissives and dominants. I explored and found out what made me happiest. You could know me fifty years and with your stance, I would never be honest with you. I would never say, "Oh, yeah LC, I'm a submissive, I'm married to this rockingly awsome domainant dude. You wouldn't beleive how happy we are." Acording to what you stand by, wouldn't I just be perpetuating what you beleive to be a systemic destructive cult. Would you care, at all, about what was right for me as a human being? I wonder about that.

And God forbid you ever date a woman like me. You will never know her, you will never know her heart. With the harsh stance you take, how could she ever come to you and say, "yeah, I know it doesn't fit your world picture, but it makes me really wet when you grab the back of my neck." or "Yeah yeah, I know, women are all good and sweet, but you know.... I have this riding crop and you have the cutest ass."

And... how is your wife ever going to come to you, heartbroken, because she is hurting and upset. If she tells you she has done something mean or harsh or unkind then by your definition, she's not just had a bad day, why she isn't being what the very nature of woman hood is. Why if she has bad thoughts, she isn't a real woman. Real women are kind and loving and forgiving acording to you. That would be a harsh hard life.

Just... more stuff to consider. And yes, I do imagine you and I will never agree on this topic. Wishing you well. Willow

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Oh, snap, darlin'... where've you been all my life?!?

*cheers*

 

[Liar]

Luc, this must be a subcultural perspective of some sort that I can't comprehend.

You say that you throw all this bile against a gender in a reaction to what you've experienced and chonicled, or something like that. You talk of a norm of misgonist asshole floatsam, a vast majority of monsters. Believe me, I have searched, combed my memory of thousands of encounters, men from all levels of society and all cultures. I have so far found three, three that seems to match your criteria. And maybe another ten to twenty who did a good acting job hiding their true, ugly values, where it took some serious probing to expose them as the pricks they are.

They are turds, and yes, they stink up the pool. But they are not the water. Most men that I have gotten close enough to scan their motives just want one thing. To love and be loved, to find a kind, patient girl who smells nice and can tell them who the fuck they are. Because that is imperative to every male's psyche, I believe. We desperately need someone else to define us. Those who acts like turds are generally devoid of that. I've had very present role models, parents and close friends for that my whole life, so I can say that I'm pretty well defined. Still, all I want is a kind, patient girl who smells nice and can affirm who the fuck I am.