I love my Country

[minsue]

<tiny voice> I differentiated between country and leaders....hell I differentiated between country and people</tiny voice>

Come now, Luc. Tiny voices do not become you.

 

[Belegon]

I have a deep and abiding love for the United States of America.

I don't just stand for the National Anthem, I SING. I have been known to cry (a little) watching american athletes receive their gold medals. I honestly believe that we are a force for good in the world.

One of the reasons is that we have a government that can change without violence. In November I will do what I feel is right when I vote for the person I think will do the best job out of the choices that I feel have a reasonable chance of being elected.

Are we perfect? Of course not. Do we do great harm on occassion? Yes. Are we an enormous influence on the world? Hell yes.

I think that we will continue to make mistakes just as I will continue to make mistakes. I hope that the country will learn from these as I hope that I will.

Nothing and no one is perfect but it is important to acknowledge not only the need to continue to make our world a better place but to allow ourselves some pride in our past and to use our past accomplishments to encourage our future achievements.

 

[snooper]

Perhaps ...

Perhaps it will help to analyse why the US is so disliked in so many parts of the world.

If the US had been serious about there being a direct threat to the security of the USA coming from Baghdad, that threat could have bewen eliminated within twelve hours of the President approving real action. After that Baghdad would not have existed.

Everyone knows that the US would not do that, and so it is safe to cock a snook at them.

What the US will do when you look like a real threat is what they always do: send in tanks, helicopters and bombers, supported by infantry.

That works well if your opponents are a uniformed armed forces who will fight pitched battles, or if you are prepared to wage total war, as in the battles against Germany in WWII.

Because the US is now very loath to kill civilians (unlike the B-17 and B-36 commanders over Hamburg, Berlin, etc.) they find it difficult to fight a guerilla enemy where literally any local resident of any age can be an innocent civilian one moment and a "freedom fighter" the next, and back again just as quickly.

I would have hoped that Vietnam would have taught them that, but no, we have had the Balkans, the Gulf, Afghanistan, the Gulf again, and still we see tanks being used against non-uniformed, unidentifiable opponents.

The reason the US is disliked is that it has the power to deal with any conceivable threat, but doesn't use it. All the US does is huff and puff because it hasn't got the bottle to use nuclear weapons, and everone knows that. It hasn't even got the guts to use conventional weapons properly, lest a few civilian supporters of its enemies get hurt.

Najaf is typical. The US does not kill the terrorists there because, a) there are civilians being used as a human shield, and b) they are using a church as their HQ.

As to b) I would say that is not a valid reason. "God" (of whatever flavour) does not build churches, men do. If the present one is flattened, then men can build another if they want one. Worse than that, as CNN showed, they still allow electricity in to the terrorist hideaway, as can be seen from the floodlighting. Why, if the US wants to win by siege, is the power, gas, and water not cut off, and the area not made fully isolated? TV crews come and go with impunity.

The USA is disliked because it talks big and then fails to act.

 

[oggbashan]

Over the full two hundred and twenty-eight years, the United States of America has been an example, an inspiration, and an aid to the spread of freedom around the globe.

That statement worries me. If you sincerely believe it then you do not know your own history.

I know of no country that can claim that much. The UK certainly cannot. Once the Royal Navy had a recruitment advert showing all the countries in the world in which we had fought wars during the last 250 years. There were a very few not included - Switzerland was one.

I am also concerned that you do not understand that some peoples hate the people of the US, not just its government. There are places in the world where it is not safe to be a US citizen.

By modern standards the US could be accused of genocide of Native Americans, of breaking treaties with them on a massive and unprincipled scale. They have invaded other countries - Mexico, the Phillippines. They still occupy part of Cuba against the wishes of that country's government and people. They have moved whole populations off islands to make military bases or to conduct nuclear tests. I could go on but there is little point if you do not know your own history.

The US has done a lot for the freedom of the world, particularly in WWII and Korea. In WWI more Canadians died than US troops yet without US aid that war might not have ended so soon.

You should be proud of what your country has done but also ashamed of some things done in your name. One without the other is false patriotism - the sort that leads to unjust wars.

Og (who is still ashamed that we burnt Washington and The White House in the war of 1812)

 

[CrazyyAngel]

People in the US understate these marvellous achievements, for me, and overstate other matters that I find hard to fathom.

Yeah ... right ... "Hey, maybe Iraq was a big mistake, but hey, we saved the world from Hitler ... 60 years ago" Yeah, you are right, people should brag more often about long gone events. Speaking of which ... Germans invented the automobiles, wasn't that great?

Are we an enormous influence on the world? Hell yes.

Well ... but the difference of opinions about in what way Amcerica influences the world is the cause of dislike for the country.

The USA is disliked because it talks big and then fails to act.

No ... Imagine Bush would have flattened Baghdad with nuclear weapons. You can be sure even the Brits would have called you nuts and called of the alliance. The US is disliked because it talks big in the first place. If you (and with "you" I mean the US, without equaling you and your government) wouldn't try to enforce your believes and wouldn't play sheriff for the rest of the world I dare say the world would be a more peaceful place.

CA

 

[Teenage Venus]

could you cite the source of this 'fact'? According to the National Institutes of Health's National Cancer Institute the 2004 FY budget was 4.9 Billion. They requested (but will not get) 6+ Billion for FY 2005. I could not get the numbers going back 15 years, but assuming it's trebled, which is unlikely, the total would be in the range of 22.5 Billion. If it's only doubled it would be 37.5 Billion.

How SAD you prefer to quibble about a 'statistic', rather than on the actual meat of the discussion THE USA POLICIES WHICH HAVE SET VIRTUALLY THE WHOLE WORLD AGAINST THEM.

The report you quote consists of 100 odd pages of gobbledigook, produced BY a government controlled department.

Can you just as equally produce actual figures of monies ACTUALLY spent on "CANCER RESEARCH" by the USA? as I stated.

Figures produced by governments anywhere are as reliable as Hitler's words on the bit of paper produced by the British Prime Minister immediately prior to WWII. They are as usefull as a bottle of fruitcake, a top hat with sleaves in, or a walking stick with wheels on.

One example of this is the British Labour Government under Harold Wilson denouncing the ploriferation of nuclear weapons, and cancelling all research and production of the same. Instead, his government announced funds for a vast new project on building an infrastructure of much needed roads,housing, schools and hospitals. (In fact the vast bulk of that money allocation went to continuing research into, and building of atomic weapons.)

Check out where the REAL budgets for various projects announced by the USA go. A high percentage of most are filtered away by devious means to secret government departments, and finance CIA in particular, projects, to unseat rulers in other countries, finance coups, and put people like Pol Pot - for instance - into power, then remove him, then reinstate him, as US policies and 'big business' dictate. (Hell! who financed Al Q. and Sadaam when it suited!!!)

So much money is filtered for nefarious projects - whether it be to test biological entities on sections of our own populace they disaprove of, innocent US military, or Black communities, or waste on 'Bay of Pigs' enterprises, or on sacrificing the 'USS Liberty, to aid Isreal and hope to engineer a 'first strike' against Russia using nuclear weapons. (Once again it was the British that got us out of that shit, and saved a nuclear holcaust.)

Don't live in 'cloud cuckoo land. If you want some facts, look up some of these projects/atrocities details, many of which are now are available. Don't believe 'statistics' produced to deceive and appease the oft gullible and trusting USA public.

If you do some digging you will see that ACTUAL MONIES spent on Cancer Research IS less than the saving one day's grounding would achieve. Whilst you are at it you might like to read the REST of that initial posting, and forget the little bit you picked up on (presumably to show your prowess at producing/refuting a statistic), digest it, and feel some shame that our country is as it is.

Instead of trying to be smart and 'denounce' a girl speaking her mind without worrying about being 'Politically Correct', try doing something to show the rest of the world that ALL Americans are not bastards: That most of us are peaceloving citizens like them, and it is our various administrations that have been at fault. They feed us Americans shit and propaganda, and we are getting wise to them, and intend to see that our country is the shining light we have been led to believe it is.

THEN you will be able to feel pride as our flag is raised.

 

[OldnotDead]

How SAD you prefer to quibble about a 'statistic', rather than on the actual meat of the discussion THE USA POLICIES WHICH HAVE SET VIRTUALLY THE WHOLE WORLD AGAINST THEM.

The report you quote consists of 100 odd pages of gobbledigook, produced BY a government controlled department.

Can you just as equally produce actual figures of monies ACTUALLY spent on "CANCER RESEARCH" by the USA? as I stated.

. . .
If you do some digging you will see that ACTUAL MONIES spent on Cancer Research IS less than the saving one day's grounding would achieve. Whilst you are at it you might like to read the REST of that initial posting, and forget the little bit you picked up on (presumably to show your prowess at producing/refuting a statistic), digest it, and feel some shame that our country is as it is.

Instead of trying to be smart and 'denounce' a girl speaking her mind without worrying about being 'Politically Correct', try doing something to show the rest of the world that ALL Americans are not bastards: That most of us are peaceloving citizens like them, and it is our various administrations that have been at fault. They feed us Americans shit and propaganda, and we are getting wise to them, and intend to see that our country is the shining light we have been led to believe it is.

THEN you will be able to feel pride as our flag is raised.

I'll take some of your points in reverse order. I DO feel pride as our flag is raised. I do not think we do everything right, but there is no country in the world that has the total generosity which our country provides. It has been a number of years since I did the research on worldwide eleemosynary activity, but the last time I looked no other country has the unique combination of Federal, State and even Municipal support that is then multiplied by the number of private charities providing far more than what is supported by government.

I DID do the research and verify the actual monies spent on cancer research. US Federal Government funds for FY 2004 were 4.9 Billion dollars. That does not include other sources of private funds and grants. It is very difficult to come up this the total spent on cancer research as the Government Grant dollars circulate into the private sector and are then commingled with private monies. But, for you, I will do a little more digging and see if I can also get you those numbers.

I'm sorry you think that all government reported numbers are made up and do not reflect reality. I can do nothing about those beliefs. But, I ask you again, respectfuly, can YOU cite any source that would support a contention that does not seem to be supported by any reasonable analysis?

I have certainly never attempted to be PC. To accuse someone that has the obvious conservative leanings I do not hide of being PC is somewhat silly. I was not trying to denounce a girl speaking her mind. I was merely pointing out that you stated something as fact that is not supported by any figures that are available.

Finally, while the number of illegitimate births have been on the rise, I do not think that anyone, anywhere in the world thinks that the majority of Americans were born out of wedlock.

 

[cloudy]

<snip>...The US is disliked because it talks big in the first place. If you (and with "you" I mean the US, without equaling you and your government) wouldn't try to enforce your believes and wouldn't play sheriff for the rest of the world I dare say the world would be a more peaceful place.

CA

Do you honestly believe that? I'm all for it, by the way....get mighty tired of seeing our troops responding to cries for help, and then getting bashed for it when we do. I think it's a mistake to be in Iraq, but go back a little further, and there are many instances where we went somewhere because we were asked to.

Originally posted by Oggbashan
By modern standards the US could be accused of genocide of Native Americans, of breaking treaties with them on a massive and unprincipled scale.

Thank you, Og. I consider that one of the more shameful episodes in our history, but then, I would. Many people not faced with it directly tend to forget it, and just what it did to an entire race of people.

 

[CrazyyAngel]

Do you honestly believe that? I'm all for it, by the way....get mighty tired of seeing our troops responding to cries for help, and then getting bashed for it when we do. I think it's a mistake to be in Iraq, but go back a little further, and there are many instances where we went somewhere because we were asked to.

I dont propose to completely retreat within your borders and do nothing (although I sometimes wish Georgieboy would just do that). But that "We are the worlds sheriff" image is not just my imagination. Surely there are incidents when you are asked to help (although I can't remember one of them), but there are incidents where you are not asked, like Iraq or Mogadishu if I remember correctly.

There are also countries which you (and again with you I mean the US and their government) now call ... damn, I know only the german word ... "bad countries" (for a lack of the proper word), but the US has installed the reigning government. Iraq comes to mind again. Afghanistan is another one.

A lot of that image has to do with the "we are the greatest and best and what not" attitude America maintains. That doesnt necessarily include every citizen, but its the general view outsiders have of the US. I for one could care less about your attitude, but given the hate some people have for your country, sometimes it may be better to tone it down a little.

CA

 

[cloudy]

A lot of that image has to do with the "we are the greatest and best and what not" attitude America maintains. That doesnt necessarily include every citizen, but its the general view outsiders have of the US. I for one could care less about your attitude, but given the hate some people have for your country, sometimes it may be better to tone it down a little.

CA

See, this is where I get confused.

I don't see anything wrong with having pride in where you're from, but I don't understand why people that don't live here see us as having the attitude you describe above. Maybe because that's the way we're portrayed in other countries? I certainly don't see that attitude prevailing here.

I love my country, but I also know we have our failings. Og cited an old one above - one I'm very familiar with. As far as I can tell, most are much like me - we have pride in being Americans, but we also know that nobody's perfect.

Of course we think this is the greatest country to live in - we live here! That's part of the love of country I'm talking about. Do I think this is the only civilized country in the world? Of course not.

I wonder how much of other people's preconcieved notions of "American attitudes" comes from actually knowing Americans, and how much comes from what you read or see on television.

In turn, that begs the question of whether that "American attitude" actually exists.

 

[McKenna]

I'm interested that no-one has picked up on my passing remark about how people in the United States have a fetish for the flag. Why is this?

I'll try to address this, briefly.

Symbol: Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, especially a material object used to represent something invisible. (dictionary.com)

The flag has always been a symbol of the values with which I was raised. Whenever I see it, I am not only reminded of those values, I am reminded of the rest of the country who shares (in some way) part of those values. The flag has an ability to unite people who perhaps are quite different in personality, but are citizens of the same country, fighting the same government, the same tax laws, etc, and still trying to keep a roof over their heads.

Fetish: An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence. (dictionary.com)

I was not living in America in 2001, and missed the aftermath of 9-11 by a few months. When I moved back to America, I was amazed at the increased number of flags on people's vehicles, hanging in the windows of their homes, adorning businesses or lining streets. It was ... amazing. And a bit odd. It wasn't the America I had left two and half years previous; and it never would be, again.

I think after the 9-11 attack, folks rallied behind the flag because of what it symbolized: unity, strength, intolerance for injustice. I think, in some way, waving the flag gave people the ability to feel like they had some control over a situation that was uncontrollable.

I do think Americans pay more reverence and attention to their flag than any other country with which I've come in contact. My husband, too, was curious about this phenomena (he is not American.) But in a way, he respected it. He has told me more than once that he thinks it's neat that I can be so patriotic about my country. I asked him why he couldn't be more patriotic about his, (Holland,) and he said, "I don't know, it's just not done I guess. I don't feel the same way about Holland as you do about America."

I'm not sure that directly answers your question about America's fetish with the flag, but maybe it helps.

I will say that having lived in another country and having been exposed to foreign opinion about the United States (OFTEN), I don't see it in the same rose-colored glasses as I once did. I like to think I see America in a more realistic light: foibles, faults and all. I love her anyway.

 

[McKenna]

I wonder how much of other people's preconcieved notions of "American attitudes" comes from ...what you read or see on television.

In my experience, a lot.

My favorite mantra while living in Holland: The Jerry Springer show is not real, "fuck" is not an acceptable word in polite company (despite what you see in movies,) and no, everyone in America is not rich/beautiful/talented/or lives in Hollywood, New York, or Texas.

 

[OldnotDead]

See, this is where I get confused.
. . .
I wonder how much of other people's preconcieved notions of "American attitudes" comes from actually knowing Americans, and how much comes from what you read or see on television.

In turn, that begs the question of whether that "American attitude" actually exists.

Excellent point!

Perception, in and of itself, can be reality to many. I think Ogg makes the equally important corallary that it is important to know what that perception is. It is also important to understand that some of the perceivers are so anti-American that they will never see anything positive in anything we do.

 

[cloudy]

In my experience, a lot.

My favorite mantra while living in Holland: The Jerry Springer show is not real, "fuck" is not an acceptable word in polite company (despite what you see in movies,) and no, everyone in America is not rich/beautiful/talented/or lives in Hollywood, New York, or Texas.

That's what I thought.

I was in Denmark for awhile last year, and I had to answer some of those questions over and over and over again.

 

[CrazyyAngel]

See, this is where I get confused.

I don't see anything wrong with having pride in where you're from, but I don't understand why people that don't live here see us as having the attitude you describe above. Maybe because that's the way we're portrayed in other countries? I certainly don't see that attitude prevailing here.

I love my country, but I also know we have our failings. Og cited an old one above - one I'm very familiar with. As far as I can tell, most are much like me - we have pride in being Americans, but we also know that nobody's perfect.

Of course we think this is the greatest country to live in - we live here! That's part of the love of country I'm talking about. Do I think this is the only civilized country in the world? Of course not.

I wonder how much of other people's preconcieved notions of "American attitudes" comes from actually knowing Americans, and how much comes from what you read or see on television.

In turn, that begs the question of whether that "American attitude" actually exists.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of were you come from. And thats not the issue here.

And yes ... most of peoples preconceived notions comes from the media, both your own and foreign media. I for one have never visited the US and apart from some people here and on other US based message boards I haven't had much to do with Americans. You could easily dismiss my posts now because I don't know you really and that you dont have that attitude ... and that may be right.

But there is a certain truth to the picture painted by the media. One minor example which comes to mind ... in the NBA you call your NBA champion the World Champion, as if there is no other basketball played on the planet, yet in the real WC's you get your asses busted. That really shouldn't be the reason for that attitude, but it gives you an example (and it was the first one which came to mind ).

I can't hardly pinpoint it exactly where this attitude shows (any non-American citizen care to help?), but it is there. All this talk about "this is the greatest country in the world, we are free and so on" is part of it.

Than there is the (again mostly through the media) American view on the rest of the world. There are those urban legends where people in the US, high school students actually, were asked about Europe in general and Germany in particular. Some even believed Hitler is still in power (I know there was a similar poll in the UK some month ago, with disturbing results). Just recently I've heard a story, where a highschool history teacher asked a german exchange student how Hitler is, if he is in prison or what. That doesn't help the case ... Sure those can all be urban legends and its a given you can find people over here who doesn't have the slightest clue about the world they live in. But on the other side I believe the general American view of Germany is one of Bratwurst, Sauerkraut and Octoberfest (and of course there is always that Nazi thingy).

My point is you can blame all of this on false perceptions, prejudice and what not. But the US, at least its current administration, doesn't do much to change the view the world has on them. No, they just say "I don't give a fuck what people think of us" and carry on.

Any clearer now? (and that is not meant as ironic or sarcastic as it may sound)

CA

 

[oggbashan]

My concern about the outside view of the US is not the view as seen from Western Europe but from the 'third world'.

If clean water and fuel for cooking for everyone in your county is just an unattainable dream, and you personally have just a little more than your friends, maybe a black and white TV, the US appears to be a profligate user of the world's resources. The per capita income of many countries is less than 2000 dollars a year. Any film produced by Hollywood shows amazing consumption by third world standards. If a bicycle costs a year's wages, how can seeing a traffic jam of modern cars produce anything but envy?

A US soldier with his equipment is carrying more value than many families will earn in twenty years. As for the cost of a tank? The only parallel I can think of is the wars between England and Scotland in the Middle Ages. An armour clad English Knight cost more to equip than the value of a 10,000 acre Scottish farm.

The statistics of an average US citizen's energy use compared with an individual in sub-Saharan Africa are easy ammunition for those who want to whip up hatred of the US. Air conditioning? Cars? DVDs? iPods? They would like to see an electric light.

The same envy applies to us in the UK and most of Western Europe. If you have nothing, what have you got to lose if some unprincipled 'cleric' promises instant admission to heaven if you attack the West?

We see refugees (legal and illegal) in this country. If they find employment the money they can send home may support their extended family. Those who come here are the better off at home otherwise they couldn't have afforded the journey. As for those who can't afford to come - I don't blame them for hating the US and us.

Og

 

[cloudy]

I get what you're saying, but believing that even our media gives a true picture of the entire country is a mistake. Like all opinions, it can be slanted this way or that. As McKenna said, watching Jerry Springer can give you a really strange view of Americans.

There are people that don't think beyond our own borders...I meet them every day in this backwater I live in, but I think, on the whole, the "attitude" is blown way out of proportion. There are many people like me, and like McKenna, that have traveled to other countries, and while I have a huge appreciation for other places, this is, and will always be, home.

I've been to Germany once - for about a day and a half, so I couldn't even begin to form an opinion on what people there are like, nor would I really want to lump everyone together like that. What I saw of the country was beautiful, but that's all I could tell you.

Just so you know, I see the same lumping together of people from one area here in the US. I live in the Southeast, and I run into stereotypes of Southerners constantly. The stereotypes of natives are just as rampant.

So, there's my rant about forming an opinion about a large group of people without really knowing whether it's true or not, or even caring whether it is or not, for what it's worth.

 

[McKenna]

~snip~

My point is you can blame all of this on false perceptions, prejudice and what not. But the US, at least its current administration, doesn't do much to change the view the world has on them. No, they just say "I don't give a fuck what people think of us" and carry on.

You make an interesting point here, CA. You see, I'm equally apalled and proud of this attitude. I can't help it. In a way, it's nice to be able to say this, but on the other hand, it's hardly humble. But that's my America, fucked-up and "human" as it is, it's still home.

I was a bit shocked while watching the Olympics last night, at the attitude of the crowd just before the 200m men's final. There was so much booing and carrying on, the race was delayed. As I understood it, the Greeks were upset at the Americans because their Greek runner pulled himself from the race because he didn't want to do a drug test, (he failed a drug test before.) So, somehow the Americans got blamed for a "conspiracy." A Greek newspaper printed a story making such claims. The crowd was not happy, and took out their anger on the American runners. My response was: WTF?!

I was proud as hell when they took gold, silver, and bronze.

Anyway, I often wondered (and still do) why such attitudes exist against America. It seems "vogue" to hate it, and that mentality just grates. Granted our history isn't squeeky clean, but then, whose history is?

The way I see it this is America's turn in the spotlight, just like ancient Rome had its turn, the United Kingdom had its, etc. etc. etc. In another hundred years (or less?) I predict China will be the new super power, and America will be seen as a has been, just like all the other has beens in history. Have patience. We'll get what's coming to us.

 

[McKenna]

...I don't blame them for hating the US and us.

Good point Og, (as always.)

 

[CrazyyAngel]

@cloudy

We have that lumping togehter of people over here too ... . Just like you stereotype people so do we.

And all of the above said doesn't necessarily mean its my personal opinion. Until recent years I was quite fascinated with the US and my dream was to live there. I am still fascinated and can still imagine living there, but growing up and Georgieboy and his crowd have given those dreams a bummer.

I think we can agree that without really experiencing other countries we couldnt form a real opinion. But the inventors of democracy told us everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but they neglected to say not everyone has to voice it .

CA

 

[Belegon]

I think there is some truth to the "I don't give a fuck what they think of us" attitude. At least in the sense that it is a notion that some americans carry around as a defensive mechanism.

There does come a point when someone is in your face and you are sick of it. If that "person" is smaller and less able to defend themselves than you, you basically have two choices. Look like an asshole to everyone else as you give the little bastard the asskicking he so richly deserves for not taking the hint, or say "fuck it" and walk away.

And to everyone who's first thought is, "no, you can have a rational discussion", guess what. It takes an open mind on BOTH sides to have a "rational" discussion.

I hate the idea that we are becoming the world's "sherrif". But I also don't want to shut our borders and ignore the rest of the world.

Why do we not always do something about this atrocity or that and then do something when american interests (which, like for the rest of the planet, often are based around money) are threatened?

Because, SURPRISE, we are human and mostly respond to things that directly affect our interests!

We are not perfect, but we are also responsible for some good things on this planet as well as some bad. It is not our fault that we have been successful or that we have a lot of natural resources or that many of our businesses have done well. It is certainly not America's fault that the human animal continues to be motivated by greed and self-interest. That has been around for a lot longer than we have.

 

[cloudy]

@cloudy

We have that lumping togehter of people over here too ... . Just like you stereotype people so do we.

And all of the above said doesn't necessarily mean its my personal opinion. Until recent years I was quite fascinated with the US and my dream was to live there. I am still fascinated and can still imagine living there, but growing up and Georgieboy and his crowd have given those dreams a bummer.

I think we can agree that without really experiencing other countries we couldnt form a real opinion. But the inventors of democracy told us everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but they neglected to say not everyone has to voice it .

CA

Agreed.

I have to admit, it does sadden me that some have such a negative perception of us as a whole, without really knowing any of us as individuals.

C'mon over....for a visit, anyway. You might like it, you never know.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It seems to me the U.S. faces a no win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Intervene in a crisis and half the world will damn you for meddling in someone else's affairs. Don't intervene and half the world will damn you for not caring.

There is an earthquake in Iran, we send aid, even after their government says it won't change the diplomatic status between us and Iran. And all those who hate us take no notice. No vital american interest was served, there was no payoff, save doing the right thing on a humanitarian scale. No credit for even trying.

There is a civil war in Sudan. If we intervene you will curse us for playing sherrif and note Sudan has oil. If we don't you will curse us for letting the bloodshed continue and not using our power to stop it.

You wonder why many of us have a "Fuck you if you can't take a joke" attitude? I'd say it's because a lot of us have realized we can't win. You don't hate us because of our action or inaction, you just hate us. Anything we do (or don't do) is just allowing you to give your invective a reson for existing.

As Og noted third world countires hate us. It's easy for a mad cleric to promise salvation to someone who has nothing. Well yeah. But what are we supposed to do about it? Stop living? Stop consuming? What? There is no answer. You can't make sub saharan africa into Palm Springs. Even if we could, half of you would accuse us of meddling.

-Colly

 

[Teenage Venus]

Thanks for the polite reply.

I feel we have probably taken this as far as is reasonable on here.

"I was merely pointing out that you stated something as fact that is not supported by any figures that are available."

"but there is no country in the world that has the total generosity which our country provides"

"I DID do the research and verify the actual monies spent on cancer research. US Federal Government funds for FY 2004 were 4.9 Billion dollars."

"I'm sorry you think that all government reported numbers are made up and do not reflect reality."

"To accuse someone that has the obvious conservative leanings I do not hide of being PC is somewhat silly."

"Finally, while the number of illegitimate births have been on the rise, I do not think that anyone, anywhere in the world thinks that the majority of Americans were born out of wedlock."

You initially picked on one small point in my posting, to not only query it, but 'prove' it incorrect. THEN you make the first statement in the quote: VERY empirical - PROVE IT.

You then make the second empirical statement of fact. I would disagree with this - certainly on a percentage per population basis - and I question the motive behind the 'selective' generosity.

Thirdly, you 'VERIFY' using very dubious and oft proved unreliable statistics.

Fourthly, I do not think ALL government reported numbers are made up - just so many of them that one questions the reliability/accuracy of ANY.

Five: I was unaware I had accused you of being Politically Correct. If you re-read what I put you will see "a girl speaking her mind without worrying about being 'Politically Correct'," I was saying that I am not afraid of speaking MY mind to give my opinion on any subject - be it to support our country, or denounce some of its leaders' actions - just to 'conform' and 'not rock the boat'.

Whether YOU are or are not PC is of no consequence to me - each to his own.

Finally, your taking ONE of MANY dictionary definitions of BASTARD to presumably be a bit facetious. Well here are just a few more from the Oxford English Dictionary:

"A sweet Spanish wine resembling Muscatel"
"A Griqua. A Rehobother"
"An unpleasant, or unfortunate person or thing."

I think the "Unpleasant person" is probably the one most non-Americans think of us. This is grossly unfair in my opinion, however, it seems to be true. The reasons for this are many and varied. I for one do my bit to rectify this.

All eras have had their 'Ruling Power' - most recently one thinks of the British Empire, and earlier, the Roman Empire. At this point in time we (the USA) hold that position. Whilst it lasts for us - and it will surely go the way of the others in the not too distant future - it is up to us (its citizens) to leave a legacy our descendants can be proud of.

Right now we need to work hard to achieve that. Instead of proclaiming the great good we have done, it is better to right the many wrongs we have also done. In the words of Will Shakespeare:

"The evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred within their bones."

Let's sort out why 20,000,000 US adults can't even read.
Why there are as many murders in one small city (LA) in ten years than the total of lives lost in Iraq in ten years. (Another 'fact'. Sourse for this: The LA Chief of Police when requesting more government aid earlier this year.)

There is so much we can do to put our own house in order before trying to put the world to rights.

It's GREAT to cheer the many colored guys and gals winning medals for us. How about treating blacks as equal citizens at home!

I could preach for hours on the ills affecting this country. It falls mainly on deaf ears because we as a country in general are all too happy to enjoy the 'goodies' without letting our consciences trouble us into thinking of how we come by so much of it.

YER. CHEER THE FLAG - but let's do it - not with our heads in the sand - in the knowledge that we are each doing our bit to help it fly proudly.

 

[cloudy]

It seems to me the U.S. faces a no win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Intervene in a crisis and half the world will damn you for meddling in someone else's affairs. Don't intervene and half the world will damn you for not caring.

There is an earthquake in Iran, we send aid, even after their government says it won't change the diplomatic status between us and Iran. And all those who hate us take no notice. No vital american interest was served, there was no payoff, save doing the right thing on a humanitarian scale. No credit for even trying.

There is a civil war in Sudan. If we intervene you will curse us for playing sherrif and note Sudan has oil. If we don't you will curse us for letting the bloodshed continue and not using our power to stop it.

You wonder why many of us have a "Fuck you if you can't take a joke" attitude? I'd say it's because a lot of us have realized we can't win. You don't hate us because of our action or inaction, you just hate us. Anything we do (or don't do) is just allowing you to give your invective a reson for existing.

As Og noted third world countires hate us. It's easy for a mad cleric to promise salvation to someone who has nothing. Well yeah. But what are we supposed to do about it? Stop living? Stop consuming? What? There is no answer. You can't make sub saharan africa into Palm Springs. Even if we could, half of you would accuse us of meddling.

-Colly

Well put, as always, Colly.

Rock and a hard place, indeed.