I want to be shared.

[SweetErika]

Being ethical means to chose the right path opposed to the wrong path. Now, right and wrong, in many cases, is not that easy to separate. You'll need to go through a lot of details of her relationship to understand her situation, and then establishing what's right and what's wrong. In such cases as Elsa's, more often than not, things are too complicated to easily determine what's right and what's not.

I'm married. For the last 15 years my wife and me have sex about once a year, sometimes I get lucky and the starts alignment helps to have like 3 days of quite intense sex (maybe 2 times a day, but mostly "3 days of quite intense sex" means once every day), but normally she doesn't want to have sex. I have a 10 years old son whom I don't want to leave without a family, and that's why I don't want a divorce. And I haven't had real sex with any other woman since we're married.

Does my wife deserve to be cheated? Surely not. She's a lovely woman, a great mother and an amazing friend. Should I have to ask for a divorce when sex started to be dysfunctional? Yes, I should. But I was in love (maybe I still am, I don't know) and I hoped things would change. I don't want to leave my son without a family and yet I want to have sex but my wife doesn't. What's the right decision here? Shall I suck it up, get over it and dedicate my energy to save the whales only because I didn't ask a divorce when that option was acceptable for me?

Being ethical is really easy when the shit lands in other's lawn.

Have you had a heart to heart talk with your wife about needing to have your intimacy and sexual needs met, but not wanting divorce, and asked what she suggests? Maybe she'd be OK with you getting those needs met elsewhere if she has no desire to meet them and everything is done in an above-board way.

You may also want to consider what your son's missing by seeing your dysfunctional relationship. Yes, growing up in a two parent household has a ton of advantages, but maybe not as many as growing up with two people who are wholly committed to being great co-parents and staying involved in the child's life. Divorce doesn't have to mean the kid only sees Dad on the weekends anymore - there are lots of different arrangements people who get along can work out.

I have been on both sides of the dilemma, FWIW. On either side of the fence, communication and honesty are key to working through it.

 

[billrichards41]

Sorry, but your proposal is a big turnoff for me. If (If is the keyword here), If I am going to cheat, its not going to be with someone who makes me the offer online, and certainly not someone who has read my posts here. Guys please save your time and stop filling up my inbox. I am trying to be respectful. Thanks.

Hey no sweat, it is merely the formality of saying how are you, hardly a real proposal.

But I do wish you well and hope you can find the answers you seek. It would be sad to think 2 lives are wasted due to miscommunication or lack of.

 

[PapaMIdnite]

Have you had a heart to heart talk with your wife about needing to have your intimacy and sexual needs met, but not wanting divorce, and asked what she suggests? Maybe she'd be OK with you getting those needs met elsewhere if she has no desire to meet them and everything is done in an above-board way.

You may also want to consider what your son's missing by seeing your dysfunctional relationship. Yes, growing up in a two parent household has a ton of advantages, but maybe not as many as growing up with two people who are wholly committed to being great co-parents and staying involved in the child's life. Divorce doesn't have to mean the kid only sees Dad on the weekends anymore - there are lots of different arrangements people who get along can work out.

I have been on both sides of the dilemma, FWIW. On either side of the fence, communication and honesty are key to working through it.

We've talked a lot about this. She knows what I need and her only response is that she's sorry. She promised to go to a doctor, several, never really went to any of them. But I understand that it might be hard to understand why shall she need to regain her sexual desire if she's perfectly comfortable without it. She doesn't talk about how she feels, so I don't know exactly what's going on inside of her. Before we got together, we had sex like rabbits. Every day, more than 1 time, sometimes 4 or 5.

My dysfunctional relationship doesn't affect our daily life because I don't let it. I'm dealing with my frustration in my own way and I make sure that doesn't show in the way we treat each other. As I said, we're really good friends, and there's an atmosphere of love and respect at home. Our boy is a very happy boy and my wife and me argue very seldom and quite calmed. There's no shouting, no fight, no big argument at home.

If I talk to her and suggest me looking for sex somewhere else, it's quite probably that she'd agree. As I said, she's a very fine person. But there's a small chance that I'd hurt her, and with that the relationship. I won't risk that.

I don't cheat on my wife because so far I've been able to manage my frustration. I could snap one day and pour all this years of frustration into her, making matters worse, but I don't feel the whole situation is getting more difficult to bear.

My point here, referring to my example, is that sometimes the right decision is not fair for everyone, and if someone would suffer for that decision we make, then we make sure that person doesn't know, and do it. And that doesn't mean we are evil.

 

[JKayle]

You make a lot of sense, PapaMIdnite, and I applaud you on keeping your frustrations to yourself, and avoiding the temptations of going elsewhere.

One thing I would caution against is letting the frustration turn into resentment, although from how you write, you seem to have that under control.

 

[njlauren]

We've talked a lot about this. She knows what I need and her only response is that she's sorry. She promised to go to a doctor, several, never really went to any of them. But I understand that it might be hard to understand why shall she need to regain her sexual desire if she's perfectly comfortable without it. She doesn't talk about how she feels, so I don't know exactly what's going on inside of her. Before we got together, we had sex like rabbits. Every day, more than 1 time, sometimes 4 or 5.

My dysfunctional relationship doesn't affect our daily life because I don't let it. I'm dealing with my frustration in my own way and I make sure that doesn't show in the way we treat each other. As I said, we're really good friends, and there's an atmosphere of love and respect at home. Our boy is a very happy boy and my wife and me argue very seldom and quite calmed. There's no shouting, no fight, no big argument at home.

If I talk to her and suggest me looking for sex somewhere else, it's quite probably that she'd agree. As I said, she's a very fine person. But there's a small chance that I'd hurt her, and with that the relationship. I won't risk that.

I don't cheat on my wife because so far I've been able to manage my frustration. I could snap one day and pour all this years of frustration into her, making matters worse, but I don't feel the whole situation is getting more difficult to bear.

My point here, referring to my example, is that sometimes the right decision is not fair for everyone, and if someone would suffer for that decision we make, then we make sure that person doesn't know, and do it. And that doesn't mean we are evil.

This is going to be a long one, sorry, and might be rambling, but I think it is important.........


Papa, that last line I think underlies something I read in your other responses, that people were judging the OP (or yourself) and I think we may be speaking different languages here. I haven't seen anyone use terminology that would make me think they were judging the OP or anyone else with these kind of issues, people weren't saying right or wrong, good or evil, they were responding to her post and saying what the consequences could be and if OP makes a decision to do whatever, that is hers to make. I don't think anyone said the OP was evil or anyone faced with that choice, people simply were saying the real world consequences of going outside on the QT like that, and all of them are quite valid IMO. Obviously she doesn't want to hurt her husband and she is faced with a dilemma but if her goal is to keep her marriage and not hurt her husband her actions are likely to do that in the end, it is something she needs to weigh, as anyone else does. Put it this way, talk to any therapist that deals with couples,and they will tell you that people assume it is a lot easier to do sex outside the marriage on the qt and not have it be discovered then it is, and that for every story of a spouse in a relationship having sex outside the relationship for years and not getting caught, there are many multiples of that. For me warning of those consequences is no different then having a child and warning them that when they get old enough to do things like drugs or alcohol what the potential consequences might be, being smart about using or not using them and empowering them to (hopefully) make smart decisions that work for them and avoid the pitfalls.

As far as sniffing at shit thrown on other people's lawns (nice imagery I must admit I suspect many of those writing have dealt with that. I sympathize and yes empathize with your situation and there are no 'right' answers, only doing the best you can. Let me give you some of my story, so you'll understand I have been in the middle of this, and not just because of being transgendered and facing a major decision on what mattered more, my family and its well being or myself. I was in the same boat and it is difficult. I met my wife when we were 19, in college, and we have been together ever since, we lived together pretty much just after the time we met, until this day (We are approaching 30 years as a couple, mid 20's as a married couple). We had the usual start to sex, the exploration, etc.......thing was, that died out especially once we were out of school. I was the sexually curious one, into things like BD/SM, my gender stuff, and had a high sex drive, whereas with my spouse it was very restricted. There were a lot of things I couldn't do with her, that i love, she wouldn't let me do oral sex, it was hard with touching, and it just wasn't there, I mean literally getting to the point where we prob could count on a single had the times we had sex..didn't mean I didn't have needs, I spent a lot of time up in my head with a rich fantasy life (which prob didn't help much), chatting on line.....with BD/SM, when I could afford it I explored it through pro houses of domination, which while it is detached, is a form of 'cheating'......How I was able to hang on was simply that we loved each other enough (or maybe were too scared to leave, as some 'kind' people said), there was a tangled mess there....funny part was there was a brief interlude, when I kind of came out to my wife about BD/SM and she took to it, where we had a period where our sex life flourished....but that died as well, we went back to the same pattern after being lifestyle BD/SM.

After we were married about 10 years we got into therapy over family issues and some other things, and the truth came out, turns out my wife had been sexually abused as a child (my wife had a childhood as dark as any weird novelist could write, take it from me) and her body shut down with sex, seeing her go through the therapy and how painful and horrible it was to her (I am talking for many years) and a fucking mother too stupid and too brainwashed by a church that in effect says the father is god and can do what he wants that let it happen....put it this way, if her father, who took off for a country in Europe around the time we met, had stayed here I probably would be in jail......there were also issues, coming from a Catholic background that is more like the current turds in the vatican then the spirit of Vatican II prob didn't help much either......and yes, there were clues to this that I could only put together in hindsight, when I touched her certain ways, when we did certain things and she had trouble, it was because her father had done those things to her, it was horrible (ironically, I suspect the BD/SM worked for her because she is the dominant one, which was a reversal of what had happened to her, she was in control). And it actually got worse during therapy, as the crap was dredged up, it made it even less likely we would have sex.

Before being accused of me saying "see, I lived through this, you can too" I most decidedly am not, I am writing this because I want to let you know why I wouldn't judge, because I know what this dilemma is like,and people have different ways of dealing with this. In the world of music that I know something about, the composer Ralph Vaughn William's wife had severe physical problems later in life, and she encouraged him to take a mistress (who later became his wife 2 after the first one died), who actually lived with them in a guest house; Daniel Berenboim, the pianist and conductor, was married to Jacqueline Dupre the cellist, who got hit with MS in her mid 20's, and by the time she was in her mid to upper 30's was pretty much completely an invalid, and by the end of her life Berenboim had another woman he had a family with and such (whether with his wife's consent or not I don't know)...the point is people have to make their own decisions about this one, and I for one won't judge it. I shared that kind of pain, I shared a relationship where a lot was missing and I did things others would judge, if not actually having sex outside the relationship. It is not only not easy, it can be hell, especially if you are someone who has a normal to high sex drive or to whom sexual variety is an important thing.

And yes, it is a lot easier to tell someone "why don't you get a divorce then", which is part of the fundamental problem, because a relationship is made of many parts, of companionship, friendship, soulmate relationships and the like, someone you intensely love otherwise and you are on the horns of something, because despite what religion has tried to tell us, sex is very, very powerful in its own right and it isn't just to make babies and it isn't inferior to other things, it is very important. The damnation is in the details, how do you weigh all that out? If you have someone you love, you deeply are connected with, but sexual expression isn' there, people who sit there and say it is just sex are full of shit quite frankly. It is important.....

My take on the original thread was with this firmly in mind, my own experience, and looking back over everything that has happened, my take is if you love your spouse, try to exhaust everything else before going outside as a solution, that going outside, even as I did (i.e rich fantasy life, the world of cyber (BBS then internet), porn, Pro BD/SM play) doesn't make things better in the relationship, it strains it further. I was a dunce, if I knew what I know about therapy then I probably could have helped things work better earlier, it would have cleared out a lot of the issues that kept fucking us up (my mother in law was a prime one, damage from both my wife and my childhood, to name a few). I did what others do, let it slide, never really questioned it or made it clear to my spouse we needed help (as she should have done with both sex and other issues, it is a two way street with this).

For both the OP and for PMidnight, I would implore you to try and get professional help to see this through, try and make it clear to your spouse this is a critical issue in your relationship and see what happens. Going to a doctor, as Pmidnight said, could very well be useless, though physical issues like hormone imbalances, non existent testosterone levels in the wife for example (or low ones in a male) could be the cause, I would recommend seeking out a couples counselor who is experienced with sexuality (find someone accredited by the equivalent of the association of sexologists or whatever it is called in the US), because a lot of it is emotional rather then physical (always worthwhile getting checked up on the med side, of course) and quite frankly MD's are not exactly more knowledgeable about sex issues then the rest of us, not exactly a big part of their training....... part of the reason for the therapy/counseling is hopefully that your wife learns not to blame herself, among other things, sitting there saying she is sorry is basically in a way say "I know I am deficient, please forgive me", spouse feels bad and comforts them, sees the anguish, and then buries the issue for fear of hurting him/her..rather then dealing with it. The spouse in question has to get beyond that, or assuming what he/she wants is good enough for their spouse, and open their eyes to what is missing.

If all that fails, then that is where alternatives might come in...the thing is, though, IMO (and that is all it is, it is where I failed so miserably to be honest), you should put the effort you may be putting now into figuring out how to go outside the marriage and use that to being active in trying to get your spouse to work with you. Among other things, if you put the effort into trying to get them to understand, to help you get what you need, have put the effort in actively (rather then bringing it up, getting rebuffed or some nebulous promise, then don't follow through) if you go outside the marriage you may have a more clear conscience doing so, and if it is discovered, you at least can feel a bit stronger if the spouse goes off the rails, telling them "I tried, look at all the effort I tried to make it work, and you ignored it" rather then it being "how could you do this? how could you go outside like this, out of the blue"..among other things, may spur the spouse, rather then break up the marriage, to finally make a real effort, or at the very least, have you feel less guilty about the marriage breaking up because you know you tried, I mean really tried, to make it work. Like I said, I wish I was around to give myself advice many years ago..

For the OP, one thought, take it for what it is worth. You obviously feel unfulfilled with sex in your marriage, how about something like this. Make a major effort to get him to go to couple's therapy and work on the issue of sex, talk about it a lot, make it clear , and see what happens. If he continues to resist it, gets angry, or otherwise emotionally punishes you for even talking about the matter, runs off like a child when you try to talk about it, etc, since you are already thinking of separating by getting your own apartment, are ready to make that move (thanks for the clearing that up) if he resists and resists, maybe use that as a gambit, tell him you love him but are fed up and frustrated with his lack of desire to fulfill you sexually, to work on it, and that you are getting to the point where you are thinking of separating. If you are already planning that step, why not use it in your favor before actually doing it? It may take that, reading between the lines it sounds like your husband may be someone who sexually has been brought up to believe it is something you do with your wife a couple of times a week, that anything that isn't that is weird, etc (I infer that in part from his comment that anal sex is 'gay', that says a lot), and it may take that kind of sledgehammer to get through to him...(and if you think I am judging him, guess again, I was that way with therapy, we started going to therapy because my wife said it was either that or our relationship was in serious trouble...and she was right. Wasn't about sexuality in our case [should have been as well, but wasn't] but I am not claiming to be the angel in my own story, I am not).

And maybe I can offer a brief glimmer of hope here. After having a dead sex life for many, many years, at a time when it is supposed to be dying due to aging, etc, ours has come alive for some reason, I don't know what is causing it, though I suspect it is a combination of things, some supplements my wife is taking, and more importantly, the distance of time (and her fucking mother being out of the picture after many years of being an absolute toxin) and perhaps also the invention of the e-reader (yes, folks, what they are saying seems to be true, the adult romances now being discretely available seems to have woken up more then a bit of sexual fun in marriages and such, as women have discovered they can buy these books discretely) and healing from what happened to her finally....like most of our story, it is fucking weird, but what else is new?

 

[PapaMIdnite]

You make a lot of sense, PapaMIdnite, and I applaud you on keeping your frustrations to yourself, and avoiding the temptations of going elsewhere.

One thing I would caution against is letting the frustration turn into resentment, although from how you write, you seem to have that under control.

It's been 15 years. The frustration is still there, somedays it hurts bitterly but most of the time is three of four levels under my skin. And in those crappy days, I'm just a bit grumpy because I "had a shitty day at work, I'm sorry". It's been getting a bit easier to cope with it as time went by and I don't see why this will change. And the motivation is there.

Thanks, mate. It was really nice what you said.

 

[PapaMIdnite]

njlauren, thank you very much for taking so much time and write such a long but very nice to read post. You've obviously gone through a lot of shit, and I'm really glad it ended up working for you.

I've given up hope. I don't think I'll ever have a functional sex life in my marriage. I've asked her to see a doctor, a psychologist... help in any form. I've offered to go together. She always said she will, once even actively seek for some alternative medicine doctor, a homeopathy practitioner. She always had a excuse not to go.

Thank you again for your kind words and for encouragement. I didn't want to bring up my case because this was Elsa's thread and Elsa's problem. If I did it was because somebody mentioned "Ethical" members giving good advises and implying me, the unethical one, wasn't. And since I wasn't getting through talking about greys, I thought my case would be a good example of that.

Anyway... thanks again

 

[Bramblethorn]

In the world of music that I know something about, the composer Ralph Vaughn William's wife had severe physical problems later in life, and she encouraged him to take a mistress (who later became his wife 2 after the first one died), who actually lived with them in a guest house; Daniel Berenboim, the pianist and conductor, was married to Jacqueline Dupre the cellist, who got hit with MS in her mid 20's, and by the time she was in her mid to upper 30's was pretty much completely an invalid, and by the end of her life Berenboim had another woman he had a family with and such (whether with his wife's consent or not I don't know)

Outside music, Warren Buffett had a similar arrangement. He and his wife lived separately (she moved out - seems they still loved one another but she needed space) and at her suggestion, he got together with a friend of theirs. The three of them functioned as a family unit for many years until his wife died.

So, yeah, quite a lot of people find unconventional solutions to these issues. But it depends on the individuals involved.

(I'm in a poly relationship myself; it works for me, but anybody who thinks poly is an easy solution to relationship issues is kidding themselves.)

 

[Primalex]

But really, he is not willing to give me what I want.

I'm starting to cry soon - how unfair the world is to you.


What if he likes to watch you getting fucked by a dog or a donkey? Is this fair game, too, then? If he really, really wants to have this fantasy fulfilled? Pretty please?

 

[SweetErika]

We've talked a lot about this. She knows what I need and her only response is that she's sorry. She promised to go to a doctor, several, never really went to any of them. But I understand that it might be hard to understand why shall she need to regain her sexual desire if she's perfectly comfortable without it. She doesn't talk about how she feels, so I don't know exactly what's going on inside of her.

But you aren't comfortable without it, and it sounds like she's well aware of that, so I find it curious she hasn't gotten it checked out just in case there's a physiological cause that's relatively easy to treat.

I totally get having a nonexistent to low libido. I've been dealing with that for the past 2-3 years, since we got pregnant and had our son. Sex became painful very early in my pregnancy, then all of the hormonal changes of having a kid and breastfeeding plus stress and exhaustion totally killed my libido. But I DID talk to my OBGYN about it from the very start, and when she wrote off the painful sex, I saw a specialist who diagnosed the condition in a matter of minutes. That's getting better slowly it seems (it's an autoimmune thing), but my libido is still extremely low and I can't say I enjoy the physical aspect of intercourse. Sure, I'm fine with the physical part of having a low libido, BUT the emotional part is very troubling to me and I know sex is important to my husband, so I'm not complacent about it. I guess I just can't imagine not seeking answers and making every possible effort to meet the needs of my spouse.

My dysfunctional relationship doesn't affect our daily life because I don't let it. I'm dealing with my frustration in my own way and I make sure that doesn't show in the way we treat each other. As I said, we're really good friends, and there's an atmosphere of love and respect at home. Our boy is a very happy boy and my wife and me argue very seldom and quite calmed. There's no shouting, no fight, no big argument at home.

I'm sure it is, and it sounds like you're both doing a great job parenting. What I meant was your son is seeing you two model that platonic dynamic, rather than a romantic relationship. Kids who grow up in homes where the parents are friendly are going to have different views than those who have parents who are clearly in love, very affectionate toward each other, make real efforts to foster intimacy and nurture the relationship, etc. My husband's parents clearly loved each other, and apparently had a fairly active sex life, but they were never affectionate, demonstrative or expressive; that screwed him up because most women (myself included) NEED lots of affection and communication.

If I talk to her and suggest me looking for sex somewhere else, it's quite probably that she'd agree. As I said, she's a very fine person. But there's a small chance that I'd hurt her, and with that the relationship. I won't risk that.

There's a big difference between agreeing and supporting, isn't there?

Anyway, hopefully you'll run with NJ's suggestion to work on this stuff with a great therapist, and even talk about compromises/possible solutions in therapy. Then, at the very least, you'll have the peace of mind that you tried everything in your power and hopefully you won't blow a gasket and/or opt for a far more painful solution out of frustration one day.

My point here, referring to my example, is that sometimes the right decision is not fair for everyone, and if someone would suffer for that decision we make, then we make sure that person doesn't know, and do it. And that doesn't mean we are evil.

I'd encourage you to have a conversation with your wife using hypotheticals. Ask her if she thinks it's better for people to be up front about their desire to seek sex/affection/intimacy/whatever elsewhere, or for them to just do it on the sly.

I can tell you that I'd MUCH rather hear "I'm seriously considering having sex with someone else/an affair," or, "we need to open our relationship because I can't live without sex any longer," than have my husband cheat. Discussing it beforehand gives ME the chance to make changes in that moment (maybe it's even the impetus to do so), decisions for myself or opt-out. Not discussing it robs me of those choices, puts my health and life at risk if we're still having sex and is likely to lead to my trust being shattered and heart being broken regardless of how much he tries to hide his cheating.

The potential victim of cheating deserves the choice, that's all I'm saying. Yes, asking your wife if she can support you in getting sex elsewhere may hurt her, but not giving her that option by cheating WILL hurt her if she finds out (remember that you can't control what the person you cheat with does, and cheating is a hard, stressful thing to hide).

 

[billrichards41]

I'm starting to cry soon - how unfair the world is to you.


What if he likes to watch you getting fucked by a dog or a donkey? Is this fair game, too, then? If he really, really wants to have this fantasy fulfilled? Pretty please?

Hey wait a minute... that's not in her profile! How dare you insult this lady I mean after all where are your manners.

One thing I would say though is she did get others to open up about what seem to be sincere issues in their own lives even if she is less than...

 

[njlauren]

But you aren't comfortable without it, and it sounds like she's well aware of that, so I find it curious she hasn't gotten it checked out just in case there's a physiological cause that's relatively easy to treat.

I totally get having a nonexistent to low libido. I've been dealing with that for the past 2-3 years, since we got pregnant and had our son. Sex became painful very early in my pregnancy, then all of the hormonal changes of having a kid and breastfeeding plus stress and exhaustion totally killed my libido. But I DID talk to my OBGYN about it from the very start, and when she wrote off the painful sex, I saw a specialist who diagnosed the condition in a matter of minutes. That's getting better slowly it seems (it's an autoimmune thing), but my libido is still extremely low and I can't say I enjoy the physical aspect of intercourse. Sure, I'm fine with the physical part of having a low libido, BUT the emotional part is very troubling to me and I know sex is important to my husband, so I'm not complacent about it. I guess I just can't imagine not seeking answers and making every possible effort to meet the needs of my spouse.

I'm sure it is, and it sounds like you're both doing a great job parenting. What I meant was your son is seeing you two model that platonic dynamic, rather than a romantic relationship. Kids who grow up in homes where the parents are friendly are going to have different views than those who have parents who are clearly in love, very affectionate toward each other, make real efforts to foster intimacy and nurture the relationship, etc. My husband's parents clearly loved each other, and apparently had a fairly active sex life, but they were never affectionate, demonstrative or expressive; that screwed him up because most women (myself included) NEED lots of affection and communication.

There's a big difference between agreeing and supporting, isn't there?

Anyway, hopefully you'll run with NJ's suggestion to work on this stuff with a great therapist, and even talk about compromises/possible solutions in therapy. Then, at the very least, you'll have the peace of mind that you tried everything in your power and hopefully you won't blow a gasket and/or opt for a far more painful solution out of frustration one day.

I'd encourage you to have a conversation with your wife using hypotheticals. Ask her if she thinks it's better for people to be up front about their desire to seek sex/affection/intimacy/whatever elsewhere, or for them to just do it on the sly.

I can tell you that I'd MUCH rather hear "I'm seriously considering having sex with someone else/an affair," or, "we need to open our relationship because I can't live without sex any longer," than have my husband cheat. Discussing it beforehand gives ME the chance to make changes in that moment (maybe it's even the impetus to do so), decisions for myself or opt-out. Not discussing it robs me of those choices, puts my health and life at risk if we're still having sex and is likely to lead to my trust being shattered and heart being broken regardless of how much he tries to hide his cheating.

The potential victim of cheating deserves the choice, that's all I'm saying. Yes, asking your wife if she can support you in getting sex elsewhere may hurt her, but not giving her that option by cheating WILL hurt her if she finds out (remember that you can't control what the person you cheat with does, and cheating is a hard, stressful thing to hide).

Nicely put, Erica, I was going to suggest something like that, if for anything to force the wife's hand into doing something.

Papa, I would agree you should give up but have you really laid it on the line? I know you have talked to her, but have you ever really came out and said she needs to do something, or the nature of your relationship is going to change? I realize you don't want to hurt her, and that isn't the point, but in a sense this is like being married to someone with an addiction problem who acknowledges they have an issue but despite talk of getting help don't. In both cases the actions (hers with sex, an alcoholic or drug abuser) hurt their spouses and if getting them help has to cause hurt, much better then the bigger one.

Want to know what the worse part about going outside without doing this will be I suspect? You will judge yourself a lot more then you may realize, and I am not saying this theoretically. I did things when I was in transition I am not proud of (not too many), some of them weren't actual cheating (cybersex via IM, e-mail), and several times sex with men when I was 'fully presenting' and I was a lot more hard on myself then anyone else could be. The fact that you haven't strayed until now means you are fundamentally a decent person and that is why I suspect you will judge yourself if you do go outside. Believe me, you would be causing yourself and her a lot less pain if you were honest with her and gave her the chance to finally follow through. I know there are some, especially certain half assed religious leaders, idiots all, that dismiss the nature of sex and its power, or think that a wife or husband not wanting sex is 'natural', but it isn't, it usually indicates something is wrong. I have heard the old saw that most women could do without sex (while men get blue balls if they don't), but that is stereotypical horsecrap that women's sexuality is 'less', it isn't, it is different (I can speak to that one directly, when my body was chock full of estrogen my sex drive was not that of a man's, but it was still very very strong in its own way, triggered by different things at best) and it isn't normal when it is non existent as it seems to be with your spouse.

Put it this way, if you are seriously thinking of going outside, a last ditch effort to get her to get help might just work to wake her up, maybe if she saw you were serious this time, instead of accepting her dilly-dallying, she might follow through with your help. Again maybe my own story will help, when my son was a baby I was dealing with a real shitstorm from my family of origin, they were overbearing and a series of events, including my mom dying, led to a really horrible situation (it was why I got into therapy originally, long before my gender stuff came to light). I needed to set some tough boundaries with my family, specifically my father, someone I never could say no to (my dad had basically treated my wife like shit, he was abusive towards her (verbally) and otherwise was out of control) and I had to tell him he wasn't welcome to stay with us any more because of his behavior. I agonized over it, I lost 10 pounds in 5 days because of it, couldn't function trying to make the right decision...my therapist (who was working with both myself and my spouse) told me that I needed to make that call, that if I let him come and stay with us in her opinion it would end up splitting my own family up, that my wife and son were too fragile to have to deal with that and she would walk away to protect themselves if I didn't' do that....and my wife pretty much told me the same thing. I made that decision, and it was a tough one (I did reconcile with my dad, he came to understand what I did and why I did it, including his own family's role in that disaster), and yes I paid the price, became a pariah to most of my birth family, but I don't regret it one bit.....your wife in a sense is in my position and maybe if pushed by seeing you are dead serious, she will finally agree to get help. It sounds scummy "Oh, dear, guess what, you don't want sex, so I am going to find someone else for sex" but it to me would be the kinder way to try to resolve things..and if she doesn't get help, it may allow you to find what you need and not judge yourself, which is one of my primary concerns (plus obviously you still love you life, and I am turning into an old romantic at heart, I am one of the people who reads the loving wives stories and always want the people who have come apart to come together again...

 

[njlauren]

I'm starting to cry soon - how unfair the world is to you.


What if he likes to watch you getting fucked by a dog or a donkey? Is this fair game, too, then? If he really, really wants to have this fantasy fulfilled? Pretty please?

This reminds me of the inane arguments against same sex marriage, that what would be next, marrying a dog or cat? Among other things, that snide post is comparing something perhaps in the realm of discussion to something so far out it is practically in outer space. (among which, bestiality is not consensual sex and should be illegal, which interesting enough it is legal in many states whose politicians compare same sex marriage to bestiality, go figure...). It trivializes the original poster without offering anything constructive.

And before assuming I am blindly supporting the OP, read my posts in this thread and I agreed with those who felt her plan to have sex with other men without hubby knowing was not a great idea and that if anal sex or whatever was a deal breaker, then she would be better off leaving him.but I tried to do it in a constructive way, not throw some idiotic straw man argument at her to degrade her feelings.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And before assuming I am blindly supporting the OP, read my posts in this thread and I agreed with those who felt her plan to have sex with other men without hubby knowing was not a great idea and that if anal sex or whatever was a deal breaker, then she would be better off leaving him.but I tried to do it in a constructive way, not throw some idiotic straw man argument at her to degrade her feelings.

Agreed 100%. By all means tell somebody "I don't think you're doing the right thing" if they've asked for the advice, but there's no call to be a jerk about it.

 

[PapaMIdnite]

I want to thank everybody for your concern and good advises, and all the time you take creating really amazing posts regarding my situation. It might be silly or a cliche, but it's real: one does feel good letting stuff out and seeing people sympathizing with oneself. As I said, we are good friends with my wife, and we were before realizing we wanted to be with each other. That means most of my friends are hers too, I don't think it's fair to let a friend of hers know the problem we have because of her lack of desire. So I haven't talked about this with anyone at all, and now I finally could do it. Thank you all for that.

I'm not planning to going outside my marriage for now. But if one day I plan to do it, I'll do it without announcing it. I might be wrong, but if your spouse told you a thousand times how frustrated she/he is, how horrible is to feel rejected by the person you love; if your spouse begged you to get some help, alone or together... and you still decide to keep things are they are because you're comfortable with them, then you should know the next logical step is that your spouse could find sex somewhere else. I'm proud I haven't done it and that I don't want to do it now, but I feel I could do it without being a bad person. She should know that I might go for it, and still does nothing. I don't believe in threats or bluffing. We're both adults, and I feel all the talk between us is already done.

But not to worry, as I said I'm not looking and I've even turned down several offers, too. Craziest one from the wife of a very good friends of us.

Edit: that part of "several offers" didn't get out right. It's more like "some offers", because I'm not precisely a man that triggers the "I-want-to-fuck-you-right-here-in-this-moment" look in women

The crazy offer is actually really crazy: the woman who suggested me to come over her flat after 09:00, where our friend was already at work (while cupping my crotch) is a good friend of me and my wife, too.

 

[billrichards41]

I want to thank everybody for your concern and good advises, and all the time you take creating really amazing posts regarding my situation. It might be silly or a cliche, but it's real: one does feel good letting stuff out and seeing people sympathizing with oneself. As I said, we are good friends with my wife, and we were before realizing we wanted to be with each other. That means most of my friends are hers too, I don't think it's fair to let a friend of hers know the problem we have because of her lack of desire. So I haven't talked about this with anyone at all, and now I finally could do it. Thank you all for that.

I'm not planning to going outside my marriage for now. But if one day I plan to do it, I'll do it without announcing it. I might be wrong, but if your spouse told you a thousand times how frustrated she/he is, how horrible is to feel rejected by the person you love; if your spouse begged you to get some help, alone or together... and you still decide to keep things are they are because you're comfortable with them, then you should know the next logical step is that your spouse could find sex somewhere else. I'm proud I haven't done it and that I don't want to do it now, but I feel I could do it without being a bad person. She should know that I might go for it, and still does nothing. I don't believe in threats or bluffing. We're both adults, and I feel all the talk between us is already done.

But not to worry, as I said I'm not looking and I've even turned down several offers, too. Craziest one from the wife of a very good friends of us.

Edit: that part of "several offers" didn't get out right. It's more like "some offers", because I'm not precisely a man that triggers the "I-want-to-fuck-you-right-here-in-this-moment" look in women

The crazy offer is actually really crazy: the woman who suggested me to come over her flat after 09:00, where our friend was already at work (while cupping my crotch) is a good friend of me and my wife, too.

Is this your thread or the "elsaparker" thread? I do appreciate your situation but somehow it seems to have taken a turn...

 

[PapaMIdnite]

Is this your thread or the "elsaparker" thread? I do appreciate your situation but somehow it seems to have taken a turn...

I'd be happy if we wouldn't talk about my situation again. I totally agree with you (in fact I think I said something quite like that in a previos post) but Erica and Nj are taking so much time and having so much concern about my situation that the least I can do is answering to them (and thank them, of course)

 

[Primalex]

that snide post is comparing something perhaps in the realm of discussion to something so far out it is practically in outer space.

a) It is NOT in the realm of discussion. HE made it very clear. She just insists on keeping it there. So it's very valid to ask her how she would feel if he would come up with things that are outsider HER realm of discussion and how she would feel if he would continue to put pressure on her.

b) If you think this is practically outer space, then you are very, very naive.

 

[billrichards41]

I'd be happy if we wouldn't talk about my situation again. I totally agree with you (in fact I think I said something quite like that in a previos post) but Erica and Nj are taking so much time and having so much concern about my situation that the least I can do is answering to them (and thank them, of course)

No no, start a thread, it seems cathartic for you and there are people who are ready to advise...
no need to hold back, let it out.
I'm thankful that my life is simple again.

 

[billrichards41]

a) It is NOT in the realm of discussion. HE made it very clear. She just insists on keeping it there. So it's very valid to ask her how she would feel if he would come up with things that are outsider HER realm of discussion and how she would feel if he would continue to put pressure on her.

b) If you think this is practically outer space, then you are very, very naive.

No but you supposed something... elsaP does mention the desire for extramarital, anal, water sports, younger men, blow jobs, office affairs and so on but no where does she say bestiality and she does note that these are interests, sort of like scrap booking and knitting.....
So if you would, stay on topic.
Feel free to continue.

 

[njlauren]

a) It is NOT in the realm of discussion. HE made it very clear. She just insists on keeping it there. So it's very valid to ask her how she would feel if he would come up with things that are outsider HER realm of discussion and how she would feel if he would continue to put pressure on her.

b) If you think this is practically outer space, then you are very, very naive.

Comparing sex with animals to what the OP is talking about are different extremes, it is like talking about someone cheating on their taxes versus committing murder, they are both illegal but very different things.

If you read my original responses to the OP we all told her that if her interest in those things were strong enough that she was willing to cheat to do them, then she should seriously think about getting out of the marriage, because the cheating would end up destroying it in our opinion. We simply did it a little more sympathetically, what you wrote was snarky and mean spirited, it is like talking to someone who is having a hard time at work and sneering "poor princess, you make 100k a year and you are miserable", it didn't help the conversation and simply was you making a snide point

Naive? I suspect I know more about the kind of curve balls life throws at people, the kind of decisions people have to make and how hard they are, and while issues of having certain kinds of sex, etc, may seem trivial to some compared to let's say dealing with a life threatening illness they can be just as important to some *shrug*.

 

[SweetErika]

Is this your thread or the "elsaparker" thread? I do appreciate your situation but somehow it seems to have taken a turn...

And...? Elsa's not an active participant in her own thread, so why shouldn't we discuss related topics if we feel the need to do so? No one is trying to hijack/derail this thread; some of us are simply adding other info and perspectives. And we've done so in addition to giving Elsa our best advice.

HT is a great place for catharsis, advice and support. If some members feel more comfortable having related discussions and getting that help in this thread vs. starting a new one, then so be it. If Elsa feels the side discussions should take place elsewhere, she's more than welcome to say so herself, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to respect her wishes.

 

[billrichards41]

And...? Elsa's not an active participant in her own thread, so why shouldn't we discuss related topics if we feel the need to do so? No one is trying to hijack/derail this thread; some of us are simply adding other info and perspectives. And we've done so in addition to giving Elsa our best advice.

HT is a great place for catharsis, advice and support. If some members feel more comfortable having related discussions and getting that help in this thread vs. starting a new one, then so be it. If Elsa feels the side discussions should take place elsewhere, she's more than welcome to say so herself, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to respect her wishes.

SweetErika, you've been around here long enough... do you really think 'elsaparker ' is for real? I think the things you and others have offered are sincere, I think PapaMidnite's comments are real and truly deserve a thread of their own. There are plenty of people and threads on here that are honest and open... along with people who throw things out to raise an eyebrow. Indeed it can be a catalyst, but I doubt ep is really concerned about his/her situation let alone partner. But than again that's my opinion. I too have been known to stir the pot on a few threads! :0

 

[SweetErika]

SweetErika, you've been around here long enough... do you really think 'elsaparker ' is for real? I think the things you and others have offered are sincere, I think PapaMidnite's comments are real and truly deserve a thread of their own. There are plenty of people and threads on here that are honest and open... along with people who throw things out to raise an eyebrow. Indeed it can be a catalyst, but I doubt ep is really concerned about his/her situation let alone partner. But than again that's my opinion. I too have been known to stir the pot on a few threads! :0

I don't know if she's real or not, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt until she gives me reason not to.

Either way, we've made the best of this thread by having a good discussion on solid topics, IMO. I've enjoyed reading many of the posts in it, especially NJlauren's, so whether the OP is genuine but inactive or trolling really doesn't concern me in the least in this instance.

 

[satindesire]

Being ethical means to chose the right path opposed to the wrong path. Now, right and wrong, in many cases, is not that easy to separate. You'll need to go through a lot of details of her relationship to understand her situation, and then establishing what's right and what's wrong. In such cases as Elsa's, more often than not, things are too complicated to easily determine what's right and what's not.

I'm married. For the last 15 years my wife and me have sex about once a year, sometimes I get lucky and the starts alignment helps to have like 3 days of quite intense sex (maybe 2 times a day, but mostly "3 days of quite intense sex" means once every day), but normally she doesn't want to have sex. I have a 10 years old son whom I don't want to leave without a family, and that's why I don't want a divorce. And I haven't had real sex with any other woman since we're married.

Does my wife deserve to be cheated? Surely not. She's a lovely woman, a great mother and an amazing friend. Should I have to ask for a divorce when sex started to be dysfunctional? Yes, I should. But I was in love (maybe I still am, I don't know) and I hoped things would change. I don't want to leave my son without a family and yet I want to have sex but my wife doesn't. What's the right decision here? Shall I suck it up, get over it and dedicate my energy to save the whales only because I didn't ask a divorce when that option was acceptable for me?

Being ethical is really easy when the shit lands in other's lawn.

I think you're making your son an easy out for your situation. Divorce will not leave him "without a family". His mom will always be his mom, and you will always be his dad, and nothing is ever going to change that fact. What you ARE doing, however, is showing him by example that an unhappy marriage situation where neither person is getting everything they need is somehow, for some reason, a better option than seeking happiness through divorce. And kids are doomed to play out the same pattern of behavior in relationships that they see in their parents. Do you really want YOUR situation to be your son's? Because you're too afraid to divorce his mother, that's exactly what you'll be forcing him to do.

If you love him sooo much that you'd do anything (be in an unhappy marriage) for him, then you love him enough to do the RIGHT thing. It may not necessarily be the easy thing, but it is the RIGHT thing to do. For everyone, including your son.