Legalizing and Normalizing Sex Work - A Net Positive or Negative for Society?

[LMWM321]

Kind of? The thing about massages is that they don’t seem to have the same addictive qualities as sex.

I want to agree with you, but I think I’ve seen a lot of futures get burned by addiction to video games, gambling, alcohol, and marijuana use. I see no reason why prostitutes wouldn’t further increase the number of people who fuck up their lives by being addicted to prostitution use.

That's why I asked in my OP if legalizing SW would be a Net Positive. ..Clearly, there would be a downside. But should the people who would use it to benefit their lives and relationships be denied the opportunity to do so just because there are those who couldn't exercise sufficient control?

 

[Yarglenurp]

That's why I asked in my OP if legalizing SW would be a Net Positive. ..Clearly, there would be a downside. But should the people who would use it to benefit their lives and relationships be denied the opportunity to do so just because there are those who couldn't exercise sufficient control?

Well, i think I said that it should be legal, so… yes?

But the caveat is that I don’t think it should be encouraged, and there should probably be education, taxation, and incentives to seek less addictive alternatives.

At its core, sexual pleasure is a chemical pleasure. It has the same potential to be as addictive as any drug. To the extent that you ask about the fairness of making it less easy to obtain in a hypothetical world where prostitution is legal, we already have that for other vices.

 

[policywank]

Well, that's true but perhaps only because that's the group least discouraged by the possibility of being stigmatized.

But if it were truly normalized - like massage therapy - it wouldn't be just guys with relationship avoidance issues who see the value in an occasional visit from a Sex Worker. ..It could well be most anyone, including hyper-busy, career focused women, widows, widowers, etc... Or even couples just wanting to give one another a new thrill and experience.

Just spitballing here, but consider what's happened w/ marijuana. 20 years ago, when offered a joint a squarish Republican suburban housewife might well have said, "no way! It's illegal and it's wrong to use drugs! And I don't want to be a part of THAT crowd that uses this stuff!" And you can imagine an even worse reaction to her husband who has given her a gift-certificate for an hour of sex with a celebrity look-alike.

But nowadays I barely know ANYONE who feels that way about marijuana. Virtually everyone I know uses some form of THC - liberal or conservative. They may not burn it like Snoop Dog, but they have no qualms eating a gummy laced w/ equally potent THC.

And maybe the same would become true if sex work became normalized. "Happy Birthday Day Sweetheart! Next week a Regé-Jean Page lookalike will be here to fuck your brains out!" I know my wife would jump into my arms over such a gift.

I think that a significant portion of society follows the lead of public opinion as to what is our isn't acceptable. While we would like to believe that society at large has become more tolerant at least part of what changes is a by-product of specific groups or perspectives gaining traction as opposed to overall enlightenment. For instance, same sex relationships are now fully accepted, but poly or ENM relationships are still viewed with suspicion. There are articles addressing it in mainstream magazines, but not too many people in the typical neighbourhood that would acknowledge their participation. Part of that might be intolerance, but some of it is also deep-seated ideas of what is actually going on in those situations - many assume that there must be an underlying problem with the relationship or the people in it rather than a conscious grown-up choice.

In your marijuana example that suburban housewife probably would have said "no way" 20 years ago largely because she believed being a pot smoker was not acceptable in her social circle and didn't want to be ostracized. Maybe she was living with disinformation about the nature of it it but that seems less likely - all but the most prudish housewife even twenty years ago smoked in college or knew someone who did and society was way past the "refer madness" nonsense. So, I think that with legalization of pot, by the time it happened it was already regarded as a long time coming so it was embraced quickly.

I think that prostitution carries a greater stigma so it may take longer to be accepted. But of society stopped looking at sex workers as victims, but a legitimate worker worthy of respect that would help.

It would also require a change in how we view sex in marriage and I don't know if legalization would achieve that, but it would be a step in the right direction. Reality is that most clients of sex workers are men. And there is still a deep vein of mistrust and judgment of men who don't want to be in a traditional relationship or to step outside of that relationship. The whole view of misogyny and feminism for the most part gives wives a free pass for not attending to their husband's needs while vilifying men who dare complain or criticize. I think that is not fair. But I'd say society overall isn't primed to accept legalization the way we were with marijuana.

 

[Jacques_Corbin]

It's just like a carpenter that you hire to build a deck, quitting because they hit their thumb with the hammer. They get sued, and their reputation is ruined. The contractor gets paid for time, materials, and labor. If they finish the deck early, they will not accept being paid less. Just like if it takes longer or they ran out of materials, that is their problem, and they finish the job at the cost they quoted or they get sued. Now, on the other hand, if the deck looks great, and you want to add a pergola with a swing, then of course you pay more for the extra work.

To legalize sex work it has to be defined. Is the client paying for the sex worker's time or for the client to orgasm one or more times? During the paid time, does the sex worker have the right to withdraw consent for activities contracted for during the paid time? Back to the carpenter, they hit their thumb with their hammer while driving a nail, they don't call it a day and cry about it, they wrap the thumb in electrical tape and get back to work.

Sex workers should be licensed. Your contractor is licensed, plumbers and electricians are licensed. That license means they are qualified to do their work properly. You hire an unlicensed electrician to do work and your house burns down, your insurance provider denies your claim. Your house burns down after a licensed electrician does work, then your insurance pays out and they sue the electrician. A licensed sex worker won't transmit infections. If they do, you should be able to file a claim with your health insurance, and the SW gets sued, and loses their license. Conversely, a client stiffs a sex worker, the licensed Sex worker has the option to put a lean on the client's property, and the unlicensed SW is out of luck. No idea who would be the licensing agency. Also, a license is proof that a sex worker is healthy, of legal age, and is working of their own free will and not being trafficked.

Honestly, it should be a ticketable offense like a moving violation in a car, with arrest only if there drugs, weapons, trafficking, etc. The sex worker gets a ticket, and pays the fine or pleas their case in court.

 

[AprilTwenties]

@myrionomos​

@AprilTwenties​

Thanks for weighing in.

Please share more about your thoughts on SW. Specifically, comment on one or more of the following....

• have you seen Sex Workers save sexless but otherwise loving marriages? (yes people, they do exist).
• do many (some) of your clients have permission from their spouses to see you? Is it begrudging or enthusiastic permission?
• should there be training programs and certifications to treat those w/ mental or severe physical disabilities? ..A group that might otherwise go a lifetime without experience the joys of physical intimacy.
• To be fair, there are pitfalls. ..Like a naive client spending themselves into debt in pursuit of a romantic and exclusive relationship w/ a SW. How to avoid this? How do we assure a Code of Conduct for Sex Workers that is similar to what other Therapists must live by?
• what can be done to eliminate the stigma associated w/ sex work? Might there come a day where it's perceived no differently than being a Physical therapist or Massage therapist?

Hi boo,

Interesting bunch of questions. Let's see if we can answer 'em.

Saving sexless marriages? Yes, I think so. Is it the norm or do people just cheat? Probably 50/50 boo.

Permission? Hmmmmm. From wives for their partners to see us? That depends of wether we feel that they are tellin' the truth 'bout that, boo! Doesn't it? Personally? No, not from the men. I have, over the last 14 years had a couple of women that have gone with me, personally, and stated that their partners encouraged that. Again, if that was the case or just lies from them.

With the mental/physical disabilities thing, that sounds like good advice. For me, personally, I work on the streets and so I'm limited with my encounters with this client type. I know this happens in brothels though. We expect to give good value and service so anything to help that would be beneficial.

Code of conduct? That'll never happen, boo. As much as we like our punters and money, of course, we like to keep some semblance of a distance between us and the punter. Yes, there's implications. How to deal with that? Not sure.

The stigma? Oh, boo...that'll always be there! as long as there's intimacy between two (or more) people and you put a cash incentive on that there's gonna be some form of shit. Sex and intimacy with others just doesn't wash with most wives. There's that emotional connection between people. Something comes along to disrupt that and that's when crap happens.

No, that'll never fly.

A x

 

[policywank]

Well, i think I said that it should be legal, so… yes?

But the caveat is that I don’t think it should be encouraged, and there should probably be education, taxation, and incentives to seek less addictive alternatives.

At its core, sexual pleasure is a chemical pleasure. It has the same potential to be as addictive as any drug. To the extent that you ask about the fairness of making it less easy to obtain in a hypothetical world where prostitution is legal, we already have that for other vices.

I think that I agree generally. However, it is a fine balance between not encouraging it versus discouraging it. The former is a prudent way to mitigate harms and encourage people to think more deeply about whether it is the right fit for them, while still allowing them to make that choice without fear of judgment. The latter tips the scales towards negative judgment, which stigmatizes it unnecessarily for those who are able to participate responsibly.

If I were to choose an analogy among the things that we currently regulate I would probably choose alcohol (albeit an imperfect analogy). Alcohol is something that we know can cause problems and that requires mature judgment. And regulators have many ways of providing appropriate warnings. But we fully accept that lots of people choose to drink responsibly and that is just fine. We don't automatically associate drinking a glass of wine with an inevitable path towards drunk driving or alcoholism or violent broken homes.

 

[LMWM321]

But I'd say society overall isn't primed to accept legalization the way we were with marijuana.

I didn't say it would happen as quickly or in precisely the same way. ..Only that it's heartening for those wanting sex work to be legalized to see how social acceptance of marijuana has quickly changed.

Another aspect to consider - especially for women: For a woman who wants NSA sex it takes tremendous bravery to go onto Craig's list or a dating-app in search of a hook-up. Topping the list of concerns, of course, is ending up with a man who is violent. Next might be getting someone who becomes attached or maybe knows someone she knows and exposes her. ..In the end, many women would simply prefer to go without NSA sex than take those risks. But if sex work was legalized and run much like any other service business it's easy imagining being able to pick your hook-up on-line, seeing his/her reviews and ratings then booking and paying for the appointment without fear of being exposed or ripped off.

 

[Yarglenurp]

I didn't say it would happen as quickly or in precisely the same way. ..Only that it's heartening for those wanting sex work to be legalized to see how social acceptance of marijuana has quickly changed.

Another aspect to consider - especially for women: For a woman who wants NSA sex it takes tremendous bravery to go onto Craig's list or a dating-app in search of a hook-up. Topping the list of concerns, of course, is ending up with a man who is violent. Next might be getting someone who becomes attached or maybe knows someone she know and exposes her. ..In the end, many women would simply prefer to go without NSA sex than take those risks. But if sex work was legalized and run much like any other service business it's easy imagining being able to pick your hook-up on-line, seeing his/her reviews and ratings then booking and paying for the appointment without fear of being exposed or ripped off.

Imagine being a 1-star prostitute. That’s quite the ego-hit.

 

[policywank]

I didn't say it would happen as quickly or in precisely the same way. ..Only that it's heartening for those wanting sex work to be legalized to see how social acceptance of marijuana has quickly changed.

Another aspect to consider - especially for women: For a woman who wants NSA sex it takes tremendous bravery to go onto Craig's list or a dating-app in search of a hook-up. Topping the list of concerns, of course, is ending up with a man who is violent. Next might be getting someone who becomes attached or maybe knows someone she knows and exposes her. ..In the end, many women would simply prefer to go without NSA sex than take those risks. But if sex work was legalized and run much like any other service business it's easy imagining being able to pick your hook-up on-line, seeing his/her reviews and ratings then booking and paying for the appointment without fear of being exposed or ripped off.

Oh I know you weren't saying it would happen just as quickly. I was just adding my two cents worth as to the dynamics at play.

Yes I could see the safety and predictability aspect of being able to book an appointment for NSA sex being particularly useful for women. In fact, that could be the sort of catalyst that would potentially shift society's thinking about the whole experience. By addressing that need it would shift things away from a focus on disapproved of male sexual desires.

 

[LMWM321]

The stigma? Oh, boo...that'll always be there! as long as there's intimacy between two (or more) people and you put a cash incentive on that there's gonna be some form of shit. Sex and intimacy with others just doesn't wash with most wives. There's that emotional connection between people. Something comes along to disrupt that and that's when crap happens.

No, that'll never fly.

Thanks for replying AT..

Well, you may be right, but I hope you're wrong. I know my own views of non-monogamy have changed considerably over my adult life, so if I can change, there's hope for others. I say with utmost certainty that If I could arrange for a handsome licensed Sex Worker to come to our house and give my wife a raging orgasm - something which has become quite elusive due to menopause - I would do it in an instant. I'd be fine with it. I don't see it any differently than the bi-weekly massages she's getting now.. And I wouldn't feel diminished by it. We've had sex >3000 times since meeting each other. ..If the guy gives her an orgasm I'm pretty sure a big part of it is the excitement of being with someone who's most definitely and assuredly NOT ME.

I do wonder that if Sew Work was legitimized and normalized in the way that I suggest, would it pay well? ..If you remove nearly all the danger of physical harm and reduce the damage to ones social standing for engaging in SW, would there then be a flood of people willing to do it? ..Kinda like the way Uber has allowed anyone with a Car to become a cab driver? I imagine that to succeed and survive as a Sex Worker presently requires considerable courage, guile and perhaps carrying a weapon. ..How might that change if it was normalized?

 

[myrionomos]

@myrionomos​

@AprilTwenties​

Thanks for weighing in.

Please share more about your thoughts on SW. Specifically, comment on one or more of the following....

• have you seen Sex Workers save sexless but otherwise loving marriages? (yes people, they do exist).
• do many (some) of your clients have permission from their spouses to see you? Is it begrudging or enthusiastic permission?
• should there be training programs and certifications to treat those w/ mental or severe physical disabilities? ..A group that might otherwise go a lifetime without experience the joys of physical intimacy.
• To be fair, there are pitfalls. ..Like a naive client spending themselves into debt in pursuit of a romantic and exclusive relationship w/ a SW. How to avoid this? How do we assure a Code of Conduct for Sex Workers that is similar to what other Therapists must live by?
• what can be done to eliminate the stigma associated w/ sex work? Might there come a day where it's perceived no differently than being a Physical therapist or Massage therapist?

No, a sex worker wants a clean, courteous, well behaved client with sufficient funds, in return for which she will apply her skills in a friendly way in the hope that he becomes a return/regular client. They are not in the business of 'saving marriages.'

No client has asked permission in my 15 years of experience. If I was aware one did I would probably let the client go. In this context any wife would be an unlooked for complication.

Training programmes! certifications! of course not. This is a fee for Service business. If you want those things fund them first and then ask workers to quote it.

Clients do sometimes spend too much and become obsessed with a particular worker. If they become a pest the worker will usually find a way of avoiding them, though unfortunately it sometimes requires the worker to change her place of work. A code of conduct is an unnecessary interference in the transaction, there are numerous websites.(eg SYD99.com.au) which review sexworkers and their workplaces. Any worker who performs poorly will soon find herself without clients.

Some stigma is a good thing, in fact essential. If there was none there would be such an influx of new talent that prices would collapse. Prices did drop after decriminalization because the non involvement of police took 90% of the 'public shaming risk away. Legality brought the trade indoors to a more secure private environment- there are virtually no Street workers left in Oz. In addition the Pimps were squeezed out by the lower prices and because their role remained illegal.

 

[Yarglenurp]

No, a sex worker wants a clean, courteous, well behaved client with sufficient funds, in return for which she will apply her skills in a friendly way in the hope that he becomes a return/regular client. They are not in the business of 'saving marriages.'

No client has asked permission in my 15 years of experience. If I was aware one did I would probably let the client go. In this context any wife would be an unlooked for complication.

Training programmes! certifications! of course not. This is a fee for Service business. If you want those things fund them first and then ask workers to quote it.

Clients do sometimes spend too much and become obsessed with a particular worker. If they become a pest the worker will usually find a way of avoiding them, though unfortunately it sometimes requires the worker to change her place of work. A code of conduct is an unnecessary interference in the transaction, there are numerous websites.(eg SYD99.com.au) which review sexworkers and their workplaces. Any worker who performs poorly will soon find herself without clients.

Some stigma is a good thing, in fact essential. If there was none there would be such an influx of new talent that prices would collapse. Prices did drop after decriminalization because the non involvement of police took 90% of the 'public shaming risk away. Legality brought the trade indoors to a more secure private environment- there are virtually no Street workers left in Oz. In addition the Pimps were squeezed out by the lower prices and because their role remained illegal.

Thank you for pointing out the paradox of sex workers wanting the industry to face some stigma in order to increase their earning potential.

Basically, from a macro-view, morality is a lever in the economic system. On the micro-scale, we think of morality and economics as separate issues, but on the society scale, morality is just a lever to make the economics of a society more efficient.

If giving out blowjobs is seen to be on the same caliber of innocuousness as giving someone a manicure, you’d quickly have the market flooded with 18-year olds who’d see the job as an amazing opportunity to make a bit of extra clothing money. And this would be the kind of job where a lot of guys would see youthful inexperience as a positive.

 

[AprilTwenties]

Thanks for replying AT..

Well, you may be right, but I hope you're wrong. I know my own views of non-monogamy have changed considerably over my adult life, so if I can change, there's hope for others. I say with utmost certainty that If I could arrange for a handsome licensed Sex Worker to come to our house and give my wife a raging orgasm - something which has become quite elusive due to menopause - I would do it in an instant. I'd be fine with it. I don't see it any differently than the bi-weekly massages she's getting now.. And I wouldn't feel diminished by it. We've had sex >3000 times since meeting each other. ..If the guys gives her an orgasm I'm pretty sure a big part of it is the excitement of being with someone who's most definitely and assuredly NOT ME.

I do wonder that if Sew Work was legitimized and normalized in the way that I suggest, would it pay well? ..If you remove nearly all the danger of physical harm and reduce the damage to ones social standing for engaging in SW, would there then be a flood of people willing to do it? ..Kinda like the way Uber has allowed anyone with a Car to become a cab driver? I imagine that to succeed and survive as a Sex Worker presently requires considerable courage, guile and perhaps carrying a weapon. ..How might that change if it was normalized?

Again, I feel boo, that this won't happen. People are set in their ways and, the majority of people, believe in a one-on-one relationship. If it was normalised then they'll be an influx of divorces and devastated families, on both male and female sides.

Financially, the incentive wouldn't be there for people as the prices will drop. People live to their means. As an example, over the course of 5 years boo I earned £600k. If it was legalised throughout I could very well see that £120k a year drop like a stone. Would I earn nearer £40k? I think so. For people, with big bills and mortgages, they wouldn't make ends meet.

Yes, to survive you have to have street smarts about you...and anything can be made into a weapon.

A x

 

[SmokingFap]

Kind of? The thing about massages is that they don’t seem to have the same addictive qualities as sex.

I want to agree with you, but I think I’ve seen a lot of futures get burned by addiction to video games, gambling, alcohol, and marijuana use. I see no reason why prostitutes wouldn’t further increase the number of people who fuck up their lives by being addicted to prostitution use.

If they're not already addicted to sex, I don't imagine they'd become addicted to paying for sex.

 

[Yarglenurp]

If they're not already addicted to sex, I don't imagine they'd become addicted to paying for sex.

I disagree. Alcoholism rates plummeted after prohibition. They went back up after legalization. Gambling addiction is highest in states with casinos.

End of the day, it’s easier to get addicted to something that is easily available than getting addicted to something that’s hard to get or super-stigmatized.

Legalizing these things is a good idea simply because the treatment (i.e., jail and a criminal record) is worse than the disease. They are not objectively good.

 

[SmokingFap]

I disagree. Alcoholism rates plummeted after prohibition. They went back up after legalization. Gambling addiction is highest in states with casinos.

End of the day, it’s easier to get addicted to something that is easily available than getting addicted to something that’s hard to get or super-stigmatized.

Legalizing these things is a good idea simply because the treatment (i.e., jail and a criminal record) is worse than the disease. They are not objectively good.

So you're saying that people who can't get sex other than to pay for it, SHOULDN'T get sex because they might get addicted to it. I disagree with that philosophy.

 

[Yarglenurp]

So you're saying that people who can't get sex other than to pay for it, SHOULDN'T get sex because they might get addicted to it. I disagree with that philosophy.

? I think you want to argue with me because I approached the same conclusion using different logic than you. I’m in favor of legalization. I just want it for different reasons than you do.

If you’re asking me to have the same priority system as you, that will be a non-starter. I don’t inherently place high value in making sure everyone who wants sex can get sex. In a world of beaten and malnourished children, that issue is so low on the totem pole of concerns as to be practically non-existent.

 

[LMWM321]

@myrionomos

Again, thanks for your keen insights. So would you prefer it be legalized and safer, or remain illegal and more lucrative?

 

[LMWM321]

So you're saying that people who can't get sex other than to pay for it, SHOULDN'T get sex because they might get addicted to it. I disagree with that philosophy.

Agreed... And I would add that sex is something which is believed to help people live longer, healthier and happier lives. Which is not really the case with alcohol or gambling.

 

[SmokingFap]

Agreed... And I would add that sex is something which is believed to help people live longer, healthier and happier lives. Which is not really the case with alcohol or gambling.

Dammit, that's a great point. Good catch.

 

[LMWM321]

If you’re asking me to have the same priority system as you, that will be a non-starter. I don’t inherently place high value in making sure everyone who wants sex can get sex. In a world of beaten and malnourished children, that issue is so low on the totem pole of concerns as to be practically non-existent.

Yes, we'll remember that should the world ever have to chose between:
1) Solve world hunger.
OR
2) Legalizing Sex Work

 

[Yarglenurp]

Yes, we'll remember that should the world ever have to chose between:
1) Solve world hunger.
OR
2) Legalizing Sex Work

?

You’re making the same fallacious comparison the other guy did.

Since my very first post on this thread, I have supported legalization of sex work. I just don’t support it for the same reasons you do because I value different things in my life and in society at large.

It seems like you’re both demanding that I support legalization of sex work for the same reasons that you support it. Why? I agree with your outcome. If the last 8 years have taught you anything, it should be to take the win when you get the win.

 

[LMWM321]

It seems like you’re both demanding that I support legalization of sex work for the same reasons that you support it.

Not at all, I respect your reasons. ..I wasn't trying to be a dick - it was just a light-hearted jab about conflating poverty w/ legalizing sex work.

You've made sensible contributions to the thread, please don't stop on my account.

 

[Sappho_CGN]

In Germany prostitution is legal and a contract with a working girl is valid. Long times , prostitution was allowed but it was deemed to be immoral and contracts not binding beacuse of that.

At the moment, a discussion starts to forbide prostitution and to punish the patreon (Scandinavian model).

I had contact to five working girls for professionell reasons. Two were forced for economic reasons , two were financing university studies with that and one did it to be able to purchase expensive fashion.

My opinion is that it it not possible to abolish it. There was and is since all times prostitution because mens sexuality tends to an objectivication. if it is forbidden, the women will become again problems. I think a controlled brnach is best to avoid poverty prostitution and illegal structures hard to control.

 

[LMWM321]

My opinion is that it it not possible to abolish it. There was and is since all times prostitution because mens sexuality tends to an objectivication.

Good points.. But I would point out that women could be just as likely (or nearly) to use a Sex Worker. If it was normalized there are plenty of women who are too busy for a relationship (ie., demanding career), don't want a relationship, or simply going through a period without an intimacy partner who would ALSO seek out a Sex Worker.

The reasons women aren't as likely to secure the services nowadays are almost certainly because seeking sex w/ strangers poses WAY more risks to them - both physically and reputation-wise. ..But make SW reliably safe and more socially acceptable and we could see a sea change.