OMG, am I turning straight?!

[Wolfman1982]

Oh my - who's the hater?

I guess, it is none of us then. We are just both very emotional beings. And we are on different sides of the fence, but we are having a wonderful, but emotional discussion, where I shout out curses. Since it is irritating me a bit lol

 

[Wolfman1982]

privyjo, and all other in the lesbian community. There is one thing, that did make my temper go up. And this is it. When I felt/read hatred. To the men in the thread, was because of "Nevers" struggle in herself, since she was beginning of thinking of having fun with a man. And what you did was like the old scene from Chasing Amy, where a knitting group, said "now we have lost another to the enemy".

And the comments I qouted reminded me too much of that, and PredatorSmile have almost felt that, when she was the leader of the GLBT alliance at her college. And she was expelled, because of her intrest in a man. People must understand, that IS a kind of hate to men in general. And that is why, I fired up, since because ONE man is a pig, and treats women like dirt. Then it doesn´t mean every one else is doing the same thing.

And well I can love any human being, even if it is a nonsexual relationship. My temper runs off, when I feel hate, emotional coldness, you name it. In every negative way. And yes a lesbian is a woman, only loves women. When it comes to love, but being a knitting group, only comes out to this. predujice, and nothing else. And in some ways even breeding fanatism, stupidity, and ignorance, that is why I felt hate. Since people are people. And we all need some things in life, wether it is men. Women, or both. But don´t hate all men, and accept peoples wishes, of trying to be with a man. Even though, "then her homobatch is tainted". We all need to evolve, and not shoot mud, at eachother all the time.

I know a lesbian, who sleeps with a man, and well if you ask her directly if she is a lesbian, then she will say yes. But well I can´t explain, and won´t explain why she is with a man. But love, and friendship is a strange thing. And well, people don´t be a part of a yarn, and knitting group all the time. Since there is a world out there, where knitting groups, and yarn is made by machines. Even though knitting can be good against rheumatism. And some of my socks, and are knitted, and they are damn warm in the winter and they are good.

We all need to understand other people, and not putting a judgement down in front of the person, who wants to try something new.

And I am really sorry for firing up, like a firecracker on speed. Since I am not a "troglodyte, or true patriot flamewarrior" I am more complex than that, and sometimes it is hard to be a human being.

I am not normally talking about this. But here goes, my first girlfriend was a lesbian, and I loved her with all my heart. But she couldn´t love me, because she had been through so much in her life, that she didn´t trust men. And second of all, she was a lesbian. And I suffered from serious bad guilt afterwards, of things I won´t go into here. but the only thing I hate, is really "hate". And I am tired of hate, and hating hatred .

 

[privyjo]

And I am really sorry for firing up, like a firecracker on speed. Since I am not a "troglodyte, or true patriot flamewarrior" I am more complex than that, and sometimes it is hard to be a human being.

I accept your apology, Wolfman. I know how hard it is to say those words. I have done my own flaring up from time to time - never easy to go back to the person and say I am sorry. Hope you have a good day.

 

[Etoile]

I'd like to point out a very, very important distinction: words vs. people. Some of the comments on this thread may have seemed disparaging toward men. That they may be indeed.

But what I objected to was Auxar's reference to manhating lesbians. That is what I find really offensive. As privyjo pointed out, our backgrounds are not fully apparent. Someone can say "oh no Never, please come back, don't go to the dark side!" and that might be a joke, or it might be how she really feels - but it's how she's addressing the situation at hand. It does not mean she hates men. So calling her a manhating lesbian is offensive.

As for the motivation behind the words...there's also a distinctive part of lesbian culture that I think is not in heterosexual or even gay male culture. Because women have historically been more oppressed than men (we still make less on the dollar than men do), some women feel a bond of sisterhood and "we have to stick together." Lesbians might feel this even more strongly. So when a woman who has previously been lesbian decides to take up with a man, some women will feel like she's rejecting lesbian ideals, rejecting women in general, or even "taking the easy way out." (That is, it's easier to have a relationship with a man because you can get legally married, have kids directly with each other, no societal hatred, etc.)

So I think that's where the jokes come from. The women who make them do not necessarily hate men - maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Like I said, they are addressing the fact that someone is leaving the tribe - not addressing men in particular or even in general.

 

[Harrowborg]

I'd like to point out a very, very important distinction: words vs. people. Some of the comments on this thread may have seemed disparaging toward men. That they may be indeed.

But what I objected to was Auxar's reference to manhating lesbians. That is what I find really offensive. As privyjo pointed out, our backgrounds are not fully apparent. Someone can say "oh no Never, please come back, don't go to the dark side!" and that might be a joke, or it might be how she really feels - but it's how she's addressing the situation at hand. It does not mean she hates men. So calling her a manhating lesbian is offensive.

As for the motivation behind the words...there's also a distinctive part of lesbian culture that I think is not in heterosexual or even gay male culture. Because women have historically been more oppressed than men (we still make less on the dollar than men do), some women feel a bond of sisterhood and "we have to stick together." Lesbians might feel this even more strongly. So when a woman who has previously been lesbian decides to take up with a man, some women will feel like she's rejecting lesbian ideals, rejecting women in general, or even "taking the easy way out." (That is, it's easier to have a relationship with a man because you can get legally married, have kids directly with each other, no societal hatred, etc.)

So I think that's where the jokes come from. The women who make them do not necessarily hate men - maybe they do, but maybe they don't. Like I said, they are addressing the fact that someone is leaving the tribe - not addressing men in particular or even in general.

not to go all jerry springer but while these comments may be concerned with "addressing the fact that someone is leaving the tribe - not addressing men in particular or even in general" you have recognised and it is has been shown in this thread that there have been comments "disparaging" towards men. Which you seem to accept in the context you've explained? not to be naive but regardless of sexual orientation, if these said comments are going to be made against 'men' for whatever reason (oppression, sisterhood etc) then they should be recognised for the bile, bitter remarks that they are and not try to be justified? in short, there nasty comments, regardless of circumstance.

 

[Etoile]

not to go all jerry springer but while these comments may be concerned with "addressing the fact that someone is leaving the tribe - not addressing men in particular or even in general" you have recognised and it is has been shown in this thread that there have been comments "disparaging" towards men. Which you seem to accept in the context you've explained? not to be naive but regardless of sexual orientation, if these said comments are going to be made against 'men' for whatever reason (oppression, sisterhood etc) then they should be recognised for the bile, bitter remarks that they are and not try to be justified? in short, there nasty comments, regardless of circumstance.

I understand what you're saying, but I think you're reading too much into it. I just re-read the entire thread again and I realized...the comments under scrutiny are not about men. They are entirely, 100%, completely about someone leaving the tribe. The only comment that actually relates to men is human_male's comment "trust me, you don't want to put one of those in your mouth." Everything else - everything - is about the fact that Never might be turning straight, NOT about the fact that she wants to date a man.

Let's put it in a different perspective: I'll use an example ethnic group. Let's say that Never is from a Chinese family, all her friends are Chinese, and she's always dated Chinese guys. All her friends date Chinese guys, too. One day Never realizes she's been fantasizing about hot Latino men. She asks her friends about this, and their response is - "no no! you don't want to do that, you should stick with Chinese men!" Are they saying Latino men are bad? No, they're not. They're saying non-Chinese men are a bad choice. They're not specifically addressing Latino men, Native American men, Scandinavian men, or anybody else. It's just about the fact that she's looking to date somebody other than a Chinese guy.

That's what is going on with the comments in this thread. Never has said she wants to explore dating outside her current preference. Now, it happens that there are usually only two sexes - male and female. So the remarks made in this thread are going to seem to be about men. But they're not: they're about not dating women.

I'm not sure I can put it any more clearly than that, so I hope that made sense. I also hope that everyone reading will realize that calling the women in this thread "manhating lesbians" is derogatory, and that we should be talking about comments rather than people. (I'm pretty sure we're all agreed on that, since we are discussing comments now, yes?)

 

[Harrowborg]

I'm not sure I can put it any more clearly than that, so I hope that made sense. I also hope that everyone reading will realize that calling the women in this thread "manhating lesbians" is derogatory, and that we should be talking about comments rather than people. (I'm pretty sure we're all agreed on that, since we are discussing comments now, yes?)

Sad thing is there are "manhating lesbians" type characters out there, to the same extent there are bitter "womenhating gays" to balance things out. In a perfect world *que violin music* would be where this bitterness in the GLBT community didn't exist, where men could love men, women could love women and all the various combinatinos inbetween . there are probably hundreds of reasons these 'comments' and 'jokes' get made and offend people (overbaring parents, bad past experiences, rejection, denial etc) pick your cliche. Tying back to the start of the thread, I hope 'Never' found what she was looking for

 

[Etoile]

Sad thing is there are "manhating lesbians" type characters out there, to the same extent there are bitter "womenhating gays" to balance things out. In a perfect world *que violin music* would be where this bitterness in the GLBT community didn't exist, where men could love men, women could love women and all the various combinatinos inbetween . there are probably hundreds of reasons these 'comments' and 'jokes' get made and offend people (overbaring parents, bad past experiences, rejection, denial etc) pick your cliche. Tying back to the start of the thread, I hope 'Never' found what she was looking for

Oh, you're absolutely right - there are man-hating lesbians, and there are misogynistic gay men. I think they're both pretty unfortunate, and I pity them for closing out 50% of the world. I just didn't think any of the comments in this thread were enough to label the posters with that phrase!

 

[anne27]

My hubby thinks we're all bisexual to some degree. I am not sure I agree totally, bit when Never speaks of men...maybe I am wrong.

 

[BitterIchor]

Oh noes. It's the attack of the moral superheroes!

 

[Never]

I happen to know a few of the posters on this thread personally and am quite confident that they are not 'manhaters' of any stripe. They were purposefully engaging in a stereotypical reaction for comedic effect.

I am sorry if anyone's feelings were hurt, as I know that was not the intention.

Etoile:
" I just didn't think any of the comments in this thread were enough to label the posters with that phrase!"

Quite so. I know that if there was any sincere hostility directed against *any* group by someone in this forum, you would be the first to point it out and discuss it with the poster.

 

[kbate]

I thought I should post in this thread just to make sure at least ONE man-hating lesbian posted.

Never,

I am disappointed. You were my lesbian role model, a perfect fire breathing, nail spitting, use a chainsaw and spray paint for my tattoos type of lesbian.

I shall now cry.

kbate

Hi etoile!

:emoticon:

 

[Wolfman1982]

How ironic kbate, you have just gotten a child. Or should I say your lover has gotten a child. And you hate men ? well how can I say it, you know you need two to tango, and you need a man(or just his sperm), and a woman to make a child. So if the world was without men, then every person would , in the end. Since cloning would screw things up more than the usual. Die !

Hate us, or not, that is not the matter. But women need men (in some form or another) and men need women (in some form or another) to survive, if we are talking about having children, the normal way (what ever normal may be). Instead of big matrix like breeding tanks.

So your hatred, will in the end kill you. But not in the way of "thou shall not kill" but in the way, your body reacts with too much hatred.

kbate, hate me, if you want to. But I am so tired of hatred, even Stuponfucious is making me laugh now adays, and yes he made me VERY annoyed when he gave me a hard time, in his own thread about "how can I tell if I am gay". But do you know what ? I don´t really care now. So hate men, or not it is not up to me, since I think it is ironic.

 

[Etoile]

Hi etoile!

:emoticon:

Dahling! You were on my mind today - I was about to send you a note.

 

[playwithlezli]

Sad thing is there are "manhating lesbians" type characters out there, to the same extent there are bitter "womenhating gays" to balance things out. In a perfect world *que violin music* would be where this bitterness in the GLBT community didn't exist, where men could love men, women could love women and all the various combinatinos inbetween . there are probably hundreds of reasons these 'comments' and 'jokes' get made and offend people (overbaring parents, bad past experiences, rejection, denial etc) pick your cliche. Tying back to the start of the thread, I hope 'Never' found what she was looking for

Nicely said.

 

[kbate]

How ironic kbate, you have just gotten a child. Or should I say your lover has gotten a child. And you hate men ? well how can I say it, you know you need two to tango, and you need a man(or just his sperm), and a woman to make a child. So if the world was without men, then every person would , in the end. Since cloning would screw things up more than the usual. Die !

Hate us, or not, that is not the matter. But women need men (in some form or another) and men need women (in some form or another) to survive, if we are talking about having children, the normal way (what ever normal may be). Instead of big matrix like breeding tanks.

So your hatred, will in the end kill you. But not in the way of "thou shall not kill" but in the way, your body reacts with too much hatred.

kbate, hate me, if you want to. But I am so tired of hatred, even Stuponfucious is making me laugh now adays, and yes he made me VERY annoyed when he gave me a hard time, in his own thread about "how can I tell if I am gay". But do you know what ? I don´t really care now. So hate men, or not it is not up to me, since I think it is ironic.

What?

I could go into a windy diatribe informing you exactly of the true irony in this thread, but I am disinclined to do this as it would be insufficiently ironic.

Those who know, know - those who don't, probably never will.

 

[Never]

kbate:
"Never,

I am disappointed. You were my lesbian role model, a perfect fire breathing, nail spitting, use a chainsaw and spray paint for my tattoos type of lesbian.

I shall now cry.

kbate"

Dearest kbate,

I lament the rift that has formed between us and hope to heal it with these words.

My hatred has gone beyond the mere confines of gender. I have so much hatred that it easily covers every man on the planet and still allows me to have a plethora of women as well. If my hatred were a physical force, the US Army would strap me to warheads so I could decimate innocent Afghan- um... terrorists.

Love,
Never

 

[Harrowborg]

kbate:
"Never,

I am disappointed. You were my lesbian role model, a perfect fire breathing, nail spitting, use a chainsaw and spray paint for my tattoos type of lesbian.

I shall now cry.

kbate"

Dearest kbate,

I lament the rift that has formed between us and hope to heal it with these words.

My hatred has gone beyond the mere confines of gender. I have so much hatred that it easily covers every man on the planet and still allows me to have a plethora of women as well. If my hatred were a physical force, the US Army would strap me to warheads so I could decimate <s>innocent Afghanistans</s> terrorists.

Love,
Never

is it wrong that i kinda wanna see that? lol

 

[kbate]

Never
"Dearest kbate,

I lament the rift that has formed between us and hope to heal it with these words.

My hatred has gone beyond the mere confines of gender. I have so much hatred that it easily covers every man on the planet and still allows me to have a plethora of women as well. If my hatred were a physical force, the US Army would strap me to warheads so I could decimate innocent Afghan- um... terrorists."


Very well,

I swoon again, mass murder shall not be necessary.

 

[Never]

Harrowborg:
"is it wrong that i kinda wanna see that? lol"

It's wrong in the way that my enjoying buttsex is wrong - it's a good kinda wrong.

 

[Wolfman1982]

Ok, what is this thread all about ? seriously

Is this thread more like a mindfuck ?

Or a true hate thread ?

I can´t figure it out really

Does any of you lesbians wants to dance ?

kbate, do you want to dance ?

Since this is becoming a strange mixture, of nonsense, and I think even my mumblings, has become nonsense.

 

[Etoile]

Ok, what is this thread all about ? seriously

Is this thread more like a mindfuck ?

Or a true hate thread ?

I can´t figure it out really

I think you had it right the first time.

 

[kbate]

Wolfman1982
"Ok, what is this thread all about ? seriously
Is this thread more like a mindfuck ?
Or a true hate thread ?
I can´t figure it out really
Does any of you lesbians wants to dance ?
kbate, do you want to dance ?
Since this is becoming a strange mixture, of nonsense, and I think even my mumblings, has become nonsense."


This thread is the musings of a disturbed mind, which even those of similar mental bent, have but little understanding of - you as male - have less than a 1 percent chance of comprehending it, but nearly a 100% chance of being laughed at in it.

There is no hate here, and no mind games either, only words and more words. The mind game ended in post number one, and hopefully will Never surface again soon.

My dance is limited to the dance of language, which you would not enjoy to the same extent as do I.

Your final paragraph, that of the nonsense, is perhaps the single most accurate insight you will ever have into the mind of that creature which is Never. A most interesting web page - one which in depth discusses the subject of nonsense and its application in our lives.

 

[Wolfman1982]

kbate, perhaps my English skills are mediocre, compared to a person who has it as the primary language. But I understand every word you have said untill now, so because I am maybe not the greatest in the world. When it comes to writing the lovely English language, then I must disagree, since if I am laughed at, then I know, something that I can´t comprehend yet. But "Never" is not a creature, she is a living breathing human being. And because I sometimes feel too much of some posts, is maybe because I am an emotional man, who doesn´t seem always to be hurt over being laughed at. Since he knows, that he can learn from any experience he will have in life.

But since the thread in your eyes, is the musings of a disturbed mind, then break the silence, before the thread ends up, in someone (like me) shouts out, and says "hate !". And I am ridiculed, but again I am a human being who feels, that every second is worth living, even when the going gets tough, since I know I can learn from the experience, and avoid the ridiculation the next time a thread pops up like that.

And 1 % ? well that is just sad, you think I can´t comprehend it, other than with a margin of succes.

And if the dance is the dance of language, then let us sing in unison what ever song, we feel is right for the moment. Poetry is easy, but not always sleasy.

perhaps some of my wonderings, in the thread was nonsense, but at least I don´t feel any different, other than I can laugh of it, and my mistakes

So kbate, bite again

 

[Tymeless]

wow interesting thread!