PYL knows best?

[lovebound]

I think this is more about different relationships as a whole as opposed to different PYL/pyl relationships. Some people are more dependent on their PYL or their partner while others are less so. I dont think it necessarily has to do with BDSM roles.

 

[teknight]

Let me vent a pet peeve then ask a question.

I often notice posts, in this forum and the talk forum, where a pyl will enthuse or lovingly comment on how much they are learning from their PYL, how the PYL is helping them to become a better person, guiding them, training them, etc, etc. What I find interesting is that I so rarely read the same type of sentiment in reverse – a PYL expressing their excitement or happiness over all that they have learned from their pyl.

Perhaps it’s simply the case that pyls are more publicly emotive or expressive? I don’t know. But, for me, it suggests the idea of the poor, helpless pyl who needs someone wiser and stronger to guide her/him (usually her though, if I am honest). And that bugs me.

Maybe you just notice those kinds of pyls more? I dunno, I feel the same, but I'm not gonna claim omniscience (not that you are either).

Just because I like my man alpha and unafraid to be the boss, doesn’t mean I don’t also have an equal amount of wisdom and experience to offer him. It doesn’t mean I won’t sometimes guide him or that I might be more objective, in a given situation, regarding what’s best for him.

I think your example applies to any and all couples, regardless of how equal they perceive themselves to be.

And, honestly, I don't understand the dynamics (in part, 'cause I can't take them seriously...Sorry, folks!) well enough to say much cogent about it. It seems to me as if sticking to the labels limits the range of...behaviors one can exhibit. So, a pyl can't know more than the PYL or it messes up the dynamic. This is a ...logical conclusion more than an observation, so, feel free to prove me wrong.

 

[00Syd]

I can't deal with the mentoring meme. I had a terrible Mentor/mentoree relationship experience when I first got into the scene, and now anytime I even get the vagueist hint that someone wants to "teach me" or whatever, I get pissed off.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I can't deal with the mentoring meme. I had a terrible Mentor/mentoree relationship experience when I first got into the scene, and now anytime I even get the vagueist hint that someone wants to "teach me" or whatever, I get pissed off.

Yeah, corny to the max. Never had any use for it.

 

[intothewoods]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one.



That's very cool.



I get this. Very much. L is much the same and I feel the same sense of protectiveness regarding the opinions of others. It's hard to let go of sometimes. I have very painful memories of an argument between him and this woman (*spits on floor angrily*) about overfishing and salmon farming. L grew up on Vancouver Island, he LIVED salmon fishing in every way possible, he saw first hand what happened to our once teeming waters, he knows well what a menace salmon farms are. But this...woman...was Miss Academic, to the core, and she kept hammering on him with studies and statistics and language L didn't fully comprehend (but I did). And she mocked him, in a way that was too subtle for him to pick up on (but I did), through the whole exchange. I wanted to rip her throat out, I was so angry.

Funny, it didn't bother him. He knew he was right and he didn't give a shit about her attitude. My anger was mine, I had to let it go. (Not easy).

Hmm, I meant use "good" and "well" correctly...oh pbbbt. Anyway, you get my meaning.

So yeah, you totally get me on this. I am working on letting it go.

Yeah, corny to the max. Never had any use for it.

Agreed.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm shocked and saddened to learn that Canada apparently isn't the cross country winter wonderland I've always imagined it to be.

Beyond that, I've got nothing to add except to say that my tolerance for nagging is so low as to be virtually nonexistent. Also, I've got zero interest in the guiding through life/helping someone "grow" (whatever the fuck that means) model - and that lack of interest applies in both directions. But that doesn't mean I've never learned anything from a partner, or vice versa.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm shocked and saddened to learn that Canada apparently isn't the cross country winter wonderland I've always imagined it to be.

Beyond that, I've got nothing to add except to say that my tolerance for nagging is so low as to be virtually nonexistent. Also, I've got zero interest in the guiding through life/helping someone "grow" (whatever the fuck that means) model - and that lack of interest applies in both directions. But that doesn't mean I've never learned anything from a partner, or vice versa.

The mentor thing always makes me think "shockingly fragile ego, high maintenance. Danger Will Robinson, Danger."

 

[JMohegan]

The mentor thing always makes me think "shockingly fragile ego, high maintenance. Danger Will Robinson, Danger."

Which one - the mentor or mentee?

 

[where]

I can't deal with the mentoring meme. I had a terrible Mentor/mentoree relationship experience when I first got into the scene, and now anytime I even get the vagueist hint that someone wants to "teach me" or whatever, I get pissed off.

I've seen them on fetlife. I find them a bit baffling.

The mentor thing always makes me think "shockingly fragile ego, high maintenance. Danger Will Robinson, Danger."

I think mentors in other spheres have a really useful role to play. i have a mentor and she is really amazing and gives me loads of support and guidance. But a sexual mentor? I don't get how it would work.

 

[Keroin]

I'm shocked and saddened to learn that Canada apparently isn't the cross country winter wonderland I've always imagined it to be.

Oh, it is. But he's not a X-country guy, doesn't like it. I can get him to the gym because it's close and quick and easy. It would take a lot more to get him to drive out to the lit area at night to do something he doesn't like.

ETA: By the way, *I* have some cross country gear lined up and I shall be hitting the trails next week! Yay! Very excited.

 

[Recidiva]

Which one - the mentor or mentee?

Both. Some concepts at work here.

For me it's a right of way thing. The person who knows the most and can do the most has the burden of proving it and then doing it. To assume that you always have the right of way is usually cool but can also lead in an arrogant direction. To give someone else the right of way in all things is usually cool but can lead in a deceptive direction.

To insist on being a mentor in all ways is arrogance that I think is born of insecurity. It's okay that you know something, having to prove it all the time and be deferred to, is the issue. The problem comes when you assign a role ahead of time for things you might be a complete moron about and really need to have a mentor yourself, but you're forsworn if you can't do everything about everything.

Deciding ahead of time in a relationship who is going to bear all the burden one way or the other is unrealistic and depends on declaring an artificial right of way that is occasionally destructive to ego and property.

I was married to someone who thought their role should be that they repair all things mechanical. He was dumb as a post on the subject, but he was a "man" and that's what "men" do or something. His ego was bruised if I suggested that a repairman do it, or even worse, that I do it. It was an insult that he wasn't considered omnipotent on the subject. All precedent in the past should have proven that the actual result is three sullen months of failure and parts everywhere, doing without whatever's being repaired and ultimately paying three times more than you have to in order to fix the thing and all the damage done in the meantime. To avoid bruising his ego further, I'd buckle down every time and save my pennies to not appear unsupportive. Realistically I should have tried harder to reassure him that his manhood doesn't rely upon his ability to make the van run, and he should have been more receptive to that line of thought and been relieved I wasn't judging him on his lack of mechanical ability, just his bloody-minded stubbornness.

That's why I think delicate ego and high maintenance.

Teaching is a gift. Take the opportunities to teach when asked, and then back off. Learning is a gift. Take the opportunity to learn when presented, and be grateful. Assuming you need to be good at everything when you're not means you can never live up to that. Assuming you are always going to defer to someone else's judgment when you know that judgment's going to be occasionally bad and you could do better, also destructive.

 

[Recidiva]

I think mentors in other spheres have a really useful role to play. i have a mentor and she is really amazing and gives me loads of support and guidance. But a sexual mentor? I don't get how it would work.

Right, limited mentorship in certain areas, great thing.

But relationship mentoring, much more difficult thing that covers way too much ground.

 

[Keroin]

Teaching is a gift. Take the opportunities to teach when asked, and then back off. Learning is a gift. Take the opportunity to learn when presented, and be grateful. Assuming you need to be good at everything when you're not means you can never live up to that. Assuming you are always going to defer to someone else's judgment when you know that judgment's going to be occasionally bad and you could do better, also destructive.

Very well put.

 

[Stella_Omega]

<snip> It seems to me as if sticking to the labels limits the range of...behaviors one can exhibit. So, a pyl can't know more than the PYL or it messes up the dynamic. This is a ...logical conclusion more than an observation, so, feel free to prove me wrong.

yes, this bothers me. It's a part of the pyl should be smaller/weaker/cuter/younger/ad nauseum... syndrome.

Our own beloved Betticus seems to have fallen into the 'Wise PYL' trap, for instance. Here's a man who has some grievous issues of his own-- and he wants to top a woman into wholeness. Problematic.

 

[Recidiva]

Very well put.

Thank you. I think this clicked for me when I realized that "I'll teach them a lesson!" is most often voiced by serial killers. It qualifies as an evil mantra.

Insisting upon always teaching doesn't always lead to good places.

 

[Keroin]

I actually have to tip my hat to L for some of the things he's had the patience and stubbornness to teach me - well, mostly physical stuff, to be honest. I'm not a natural athlete but I am a bit of a perfectionist, so learning new sports and the attendant frustration of learning-curve failures can make me...cranky. Not helped when your athletically gifted partner is the instructor and makes everything look soooooooooooooo easy.

He throws it right back at me instead of walking away, as most would.

Sometimes steam-roller-ish-ness is a boon.

 

[Keroin]

Thank you. I think this clicked for me when I realized that "I'll teach them a lesson!" is most often voiced by serial killers. It qualifies as an evil mantra.

Insisting upon always teaching doesn't always lead to good places.

Good teachers, natural teachers, (and coaches), are not common. I think this is what makes me nervous when I read the wide-eyed pyl posts gushing over how much their PYL is teaching them, shaping them, etc.

I think, 'Who is this miracle worker? What glaring flaws does he/she possess? And what arrogance makes them believe they have the ability to shape an adult human being within the confines of a romantic relationship?'

 

[Recidiva]

Good teachers, natural teachers, (and coaches), are not common. I think this is what makes me nervous when I read the wide-eyed pyl posts gushing over how much their PYL is teaching them, shaping them, etc.

I think, 'Who is this miracle worker? What glaring flaws does he/she possess? And what arrogance makes them believe they have the ability to shape an adult human being within the confines of a romantic relationship?'

Through my relationships I've progressed through "the perfect love" where my partner is 100% rainbows and unicorns and vigorous manly perfection and gotten much more honest with myself and my partners. I'm not perfect, I never will be.

I lose the need to be 100% anything or present myself that way...but I gain some perspective and more importantly, forgiveness and compassion for myself and my partner, which comes in much more handy in the long run.

I think the first blush of romance...give it two years...is the time for vigor and rainbows, and beyond that, it's making sure that things work. There are a lot of people I could love...but that I couldn't live with for long. I'm happy that people are happy with their partners. I worry when it's bolstered mostly by denial and idealism and not reality.

But at least I think I've figured it out for myself.

 

[teknight]

Good teachers, natural teachers, (and coaches), are not common. I think this is what makes me nervous when I read the wide-eyed pyl posts gushing over how much their PYL is teaching them, shaping them, etc.

I think, 'Who is this miracle worker? What glaring flaws does he/she possess? And what arrogance makes them believe they have the ability to shape an adult human being within the confines of a romantic relationship?'

I fully agree on your suspicions, but, let me ask you this: can teachers be "made" or "taught"? Or can they only be natural? (I'm curious, not combative)...and sorry for the thread jack.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm shocked and saddened to learn that Canada apparently isn't the cross country winter wonderland I've always imagined it to be.

Beyond that, I've got nothing to add except to say that my tolerance for nagging is so low as to be virtually nonexistent. Also, I've got zero interest in the guiding through life/helping someone "grow" (whatever the fuck that means) model - and that lack of interest applies in both directions. But that doesn't mean I've never learned anything from a partner, or vice versa.

Well, no one likes a nag. You don't hear a lot of, she's got a great rack but is kinda lacking in the nagging department. What can I say, I feel extremely freaked out and frustrated when it comes to my man's health. I just want him around. As far as the grammar goes, I know when I'm being a pain and can cut that shit out. I'm not perfect. I think we're all works in progress, and in that vein, do feel like growing/evolving/whatever is an important part of a relationship.

 

[00Syd]

yes, this bothers me. It's a part of the pyl should be smaller/weaker/cuter/younger/ad nauseum... syndrome.

I would say that this bothers me, too, but it would probably be closer to the truth to say that this makes me want to stab things.

 

[Keroin]

I fully agree on your suspicions, but, let me ask you this: can teachers be "made" or "taught"? Or can they only be natural? (I'm curious, not combative)...and sorry for the thread jack.

Of course they can be made or taught. However, we're not talking about a tennis coach or a piano teacher, we're talking about someone taking on the entire sphere of an adult human's existence and shaping it as they see fit. Where on earth would one learn to do that?

And if you figure out that your tennis teacher isn't that great, well, all you've got is maybe a lousy backhand and a lighter bank account. If your PYL mentor turns out to be a dud, the stakes can be much, much higher.

Well, no one likes a nag. You don't hear a lot of, she's got a great rack but is kinda lacking in the nagging department. What can I say, I feel extremely freaked out and frustrated when it comes to my man's health. I just want him around. As far as the grammar goes, I know when I'm being a pain and can cut that shit out. I'm not perfect. I think we're all works in progress, and in that vein, do feel like growing/evolving/whatever is an important part of a relationship.

Agreed. I don't think anyone likes a nag. I sure don't. "You need to floss more! You need to floss more!" (Fricken dentists). But hey, sometimes it works. When L starts in on me for my poor flossing habits, eventually I get so annoyed that I just do it to shut him up.

And yeah, I really should floss more.

Seriously, we are all works in progress. It's true.

 

[teknight]

I would say that this bothers me, too, but it would probably be closer to the truth to say that this makes me want to stab things.

Beating...stabbing...you're just a ray of sunshine, aren't you?

Of course they can be made or taught. However, we're not talking about a tennis coach or a piano teacher, we're talking about someone taking on the entire sphere of an adult human's existence and shaping it as they see fit. Where on earth would one learn to do that?

Sorry, I guess I just reject that kinda "life-coaching" outright (since ...it's ludicrous), so I didn't consider it.

Seriously, we are all works in progress. It's true.

QFT.

 

[KoPilot]

yes, this bothers me. It's a part of the pyl should be smaller/weaker/cuter/younger/ad nauseum... syndrome.

It's a lot of fun sometimes. But other times I like to act beyond my years because that also feels good, and it's a useful skill.

It's the people in the "I'm nothing without him/her!" camp that make me sad. Because if it's true, then they're really not very much when they're with him/her either.

 

[JMohegan]

Good teachers, natural teachers, (and coaches), are not common. I think this is what makes me nervous when I read the wide-eyed pyl posts gushing over how much their PYL is teaching them, shaping them, etc.

I think, 'Who is this miracle worker? What glaring flaws does he/she possess? And what arrogance makes them believe they have the ability to shape an adult human being within the confines of a romantic relationship?'

What arrogance makes you believe they don't?

How do you know the dynamic isn't a good fit for the individuals involved?

There *are* pairings in which one person is demonstrably more capable, wise, mature, strong and sensible than the other. The nurturer feels useful and fulfilled in doing the nurturing, and the nurtured finds comfort and guidance in being nurtured. That type of pairing doesn't work for you, and that's fine. But if it does for someone else, so what?

Of course, it is entirely possible that the D-type could be feigning competence, when in reality he or she is no more than a chest-puffing schmuck. But you can't protect s-types from charlatans; they have to learn to do that on their own. If you try to intervene, saying you know better than they do what's best for their relationship choices, then don't you end up infantilizing them yourself?