PYL knows best?

[Stella_Omega]

What arrogance makes you believe they don't?

How do you know the dynamic isn't a good fit for the individuals involved?

There *are* pairings in which one person is demonstrably more capable, wise, mature, strong and sensible than the other. The nurturer feels useful and fulfilled in doing the nurturing, and the nurtured finds comfort and guidance in being nurtured. That type of pairing doesn't work for you, and that's fine. But if it does for someone else, so what?

Of course, it is entirely possible that the D-type could be feigning competence, when in reality he or she is no more than a chest-puffing schmuck. But you can't protect s-types from charlatans; they have to learn to do that on their own. If you try to intervene, saying you know better than they do what's best for their relationship choices, then don't you end up infantilizing them yourself?

Whoah dude.

Who's talking about intervening?

 

[Keroin]

What arrogance makes you believe they don't?

A big, fat, I-am-right-about-everything arrogance?

How do you know the dynamic isn't a good fit for the individuals involved?

I don't. Just expressing my personal view on something. Everyone has to walk their own path. Doesn't stop me from having an opinion.

If you try to intervene, saying you know better than they do what's best for their relationship choices, then don't you end up infantilizing them yourself?

Which is why I would never intervene.

 

[JMohegan]

A big, fat, I-am-right-about-everything arrogance?

Glad we cleared that up.

I don't. Just expressing my personal view on something. Everyone has to walk their own path. Doesn't stop me from having an opinion.



Which is why I would never intervene.

Isn't this public bitch-slapping an intervention of sorts?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Glad we cleared that up.



Isn't this public bitch-slapping an intervention of sorts?

I think that was me, not Keroin.

 

[JMohegan]

I think that was me, not Keroin.

I actually agree with the point you made about Betticus. As both an ethical and practical matter, some things are best left to professionals - and drug addiction is unquestionably one of them.

I'm not into the "shaping" model, but even the basic control model can easily go to your head. So I understand how he got there, but still agree that he's making a mistake in taking that on.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Let me vent a pet peeve then ask a question.

I often notice posts, in this forum and the talk forum, where a pyl will enthuse or lovingly comment on how much they are learning from their PYL, how the PYL is helping them to become a better person, guiding them, training them, etc, etc. What I find interesting is that I so rarely read the same type of sentiment in reverse – a PYL expressing their excitement or happiness over all that they have learned from their pyl.

Perhaps it’s simply the case that pyls are more publicly emotive or expressive? I don’t know. But, for me, it suggests the idea of the poor, helpless pyl who needs someone wiser and stronger to guide her/him (usually her though, if I am honest). And that bugs me.

Just because I like my man alpha and unafraid to be the boss, doesn’t mean I don’t also have an equal amount of wisdom and experience to offer him. It doesn’t mean I won’t sometimes guide him or that I might be more objective, in a given situation, regarding what’s best for him.

Sometimes he knows best and sometimes I do. That’s the beauty of having a partner in life, that you can lend each other your strengths and wisdom and both come out better people.

I think the closest we've come to this is that he's given me a safe space for me to grow as a human. He accepts all my crazy, and still loves me. He doesn't ignore it, or brush it under the carpet sometimes like I want to. He makes me talk about things, and work hard at communicating, and exploring the reasons for feelings and all that stuff. And because he doesn't react badly, it makes it easier and easier as time goes by.

I do learn practical things from him though. Like how to fix the air conditioner.

And I do know he's said a more than a few times, that sometimes I floor him with the 'wise' things I say. lol Not that I can think of any examples.

Granted, none of that is PYL/pyl based either. It's just 2 people. But eh. It's all I've got.

 

[midwestyankee]

What arrogance makes you believe they don't?

How do you know the dynamic isn't a good fit for the individuals involved?

There *are* pairings in which one person is demonstrably more capable, wise, mature, strong and sensible than the other. The nurturer feels useful and fulfilled in doing the nurturing, and the nurtured finds comfort and guidance in being nurtured. That type of pairing doesn't work for you, and that's fine. But if it does for someone else, so what?

Of course, it is entirely possible that the D-type could be feigning competence, when in reality he or she is no more than a chest-puffing schmuck. But you can't protect s-types from charlatans; they have to learn to do that on their own. If you try to intervene, saying you know better than they do what's best for their relationship choices, then don't you end up infantilizing them yourself?

A couple of points:

Nurturing is not teaching, nor is it mentoring. Assisting your partner in personal growth by being supportive is not at all the same as "he's teaching me sooooooo much."

Competence does not a teacher make. No doubt you can name a dozen high-level coaches who were supremely competent but who couldn't teach a beaver to swim.

 

[sb2009]

He's learned about manners from me, just the sort of stuff that I find important like thank you cards and bringing flowers or wine as a hostess gift; housewarming gifts; having people over for dinner after they've had you - all that sort of stuff. He was raised by a woman who did kick ass job but she worked many menial jobs that sort of thing never really came up.

He learned a lot about sharing space - only child, mom working a lot. The first time he came into a room and changed a CD i was listening too..well, it wasn't pretty.

He really seemed to focus on his career and education after we married - but it may have just been coincidence, who knows.


He's also called me tons of times from work for help with various computer programs. Though now he's the Excel master, he puts me to shame. Bastard.

He has been a big source of acceptance and support for me, but I think like Keroin, we learn different things from each other.

 

[Stella_Omega]

1) I remember years and years ago, trying to talk a woman out of marrying a guy, and you already know how well that worked

The marriage did not last and I did NOT say "I told you so."

2) JM's line about "one person is demonstrably more capable, wise, mature, strong and sensible than the other. " hits some cynical bone maybe it's in my ribcage, and I can't help but translate it as "one person is demonstrably less capable, less wise, more immature, weak and flighty than the other."

In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. Fetch me them cheezpuffs and a can of Bud wouldja honey? I'll be out here on the trailer steps...

 

[sb2009]

In a long term relationship (can I claim that status, my 15th anniversary is Saturday!) it seems that there are times when one person is on the ball and one is putting one foot in front of the other and trying to stay upright - and varying stages in between.

I know I spent about four years in a fog of horrible depression and he had to be more capable. But it was situational. In other ways, I've carried a lot of the burden of things, when he's been away or working non stop and basically showing up breathing once in a while. So it balances out.

He still would SUCK at thank you cards if I never taught him that.

 

[JMohegan]

A couple of points:

Nurturing is not teaching, nor is it mentoring. Assisting your partner in personal growth by being supportive is not at all the same as "he's teaching me sooooooo much."

Competence does not a teacher make. No doubt you can name a dozen high-level coaches who were supremely competent but who couldn't teach a beaver to swim.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nurture?show=1&t=1292385743

I agree that some people have skills, but lack the ability to impart those skills to others. Not everyone has both the inclination and ability to effectively nurture/educate/mentor/teach/whatever word you want to pick for it. But some do, yes?

I don't really understand what people mean when they talk about "personal growth." That is, I have a general idea, but it's just that. Very general. Much too vague and abstract to be helpful to me in understanding what's being referenced.

JM's line about "one person is demonstrably more capable, wise, mature, strong and sensible than the other. " hits some cynical bone maybe it's in my ribcage, and I can't help but translate it as "one person is demonstrably less capable, less wise, more immature, weak and flighty than the other."

That's exactly how it translates.

And if that's the default assumption about all s-types, by definition, then I agree that it is deeply offensive. I have fought against that default assumption, on this board, time and again.

But if that is an observation of a pair of individuals, well - sometimes it's just a fact.

 

[midwestyankee]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nurture?show=1&t=1292385743

I agree that some people have skills, but lack the ability to impart those skills to others. Not everyone has both the inclination and ability to effectively nurture/educate/mentor/teach/whatever word you want to pick for it. But some do, yes?

I don't really understand what people mean when they talk about "personal growth." That is, I have a general idea, but it's just that. Very general. Much too vague and abstract to be helpful to me in understanding what's being referenced.

I take Keroin's point that natural teachers, that is, people who seem to know exactly what to do in order to teach something to someone without the benefit of any sort of training, are very rare. You seemed to have equated having good feelings from nurturing with teaching and I don't see the equivalence at all. Also, from the prevalence of people who post here about how much they're learning from their master-that-they-just-met-last-week who subsequently post a month or two later that their lives are suddenly empty because their own Socrates-with-rope has left for another pupil, I draw the inference that not all of these teachers sent from kinky heaven are actually doing any teaching.

I use the term "personal growth" to mean the ongoing process of development and maturation that adults experience that enriches their lives and gives them broader perspectives on life, greater abilities to withstand adversity, deeper appreciation for the relationships in their lives, and stronger abilities to grow their relationships with others. Getting older, by itself, is no guarantee of personal growth.

 

[ownedsubgal]

well, obviously i am in one of "those" relationships. my Master is my teacher and guide, he directs and actively works to help me achieve personal growth (which for us equates to becoming a stronger, wiser, more capable, more adaptable submissive woman). He is also my Father figure, and not in some cutesy or sexy way. however that certainly doesn't translate to, he is flawless and all-knowing, while i am some mindless drone barely able to get my shoes tied. of course he learns from me, of course i have useful knowledge and experience to share with him. but there is no situation on earth in which i would guide him...that is not my place, and furthermore not my nature. if a situation comes up where my experience or abilities may be greater than his, he will absolutely use my knowledge as needed but he is still the one steering the ship.

for instance, i speak fairly decent conversational spanish, he doesn't. this has turned out to be useful for us in developing a good relationship (and subsequently a fairer price) with certain contractors who work on our home, but it is my Master who conducts the actual negotiations, not me.

an effective Boss doesn't need to have the practical knowledge of every minute facet of his business in order to be successful, rather he needs to know how to make the best use of the skills and knowledge of those under him, and how to keep the whole shebang afloat and moving forward.

 

[eastern sun]

an effective Boss doesn't need to have the practical knowledge of every minute facet of his business in order to be successful, rather he needs to know how to make the best use of the skills and knowledge of those under him, and how to keep the whole shebang afloat and moving forward.

This. And sometimes, as in the case of my husband, knowing how to keep things afloat and moving forward is the most effective and productive leadership that can be offered.

I think "PYL knows best" is part of the honeymoon package they sell on romantic getaways. And the PYL's who get caught up in it have to take a quick exit, leaving their doe-eyed pyl's adrift, when the inherent fallacies in that approach are about to sink the ship.

 

[teknight]

Getting older, by itself, is no guarantee of personal growth.

Thank you!! Finally, an old person making sense!

ETA: OK, let me explain what I mean: I resent that one should respect age in and of itself. The mere fact that one's lived x amount of years isn't a guarantee of any sort of experience, ,knowledge, wisdom, compassion, or whatever (everyone reading this is, of course, an exception to the rule ), but age is supposed to be respected, well, up to the point when old folks' homes start looking good to the caregivers...

 

[JMohegan]

I take Keroin's point that natural teachers, that is, people who seem to know exactly what to do in order to teach something to someone without the benefit of any sort of training, are very rare. You seemed to have equated having good feelings from nurturing with teaching and I don't see the equivalence at all. Also, from the prevalence of people who post here about how much they're learning from their master-that-they-just-met-last-week who subsequently post a month or two later that their lives are suddenly empty because their own Socrates-with-rope has left for another pupil, I draw the inference that not all of these teachers sent from kinky heaven are actually doing any teaching.

I use the term "personal growth" to mean the ongoing process of development and maturation that adults experience that enriches their lives and gives them broader perspectives on life, greater abilities to withstand adversity, deeper appreciation for the relationships in their lives, and stronger abilities to grow their relationships with others. Getting older, by itself, is no guarantee of personal growth.

Re the bold - no. My point was that it is possible to get good feelings from nurturing/educating, to be fulfilled by that role, to thrive in a relationship with that fundamental dynamic. The dynamic itself does not necessarily mean that either party is a dick or a fool.

As for the master-of-the-moment folks, if that's whom we're talking about then I'd say we're talking about fantasy-based constructs anyway, so the flavor of the fantasy itself is largely irrelevant. And any comparison to actual, real world relationships is no comparison at all.

 

[KoPilot]

Thank you!! Finally, an old person making sense!

ETA: OK, let me explain what I mean: I resent that one should respect age in and of itself. The mere fact that one's lived x amount of years isn't a guarantee of any sort of experience, ,knowledge, wisdom, compassion, or whatever (everyone reading this is, of course, an exception to the rule ), but age is supposed to be respected, well, up to the point when old folks' homes start looking good to the caregivers...

The idea that age determines the amount of respect you show someone bothers me. I know that there are loads of people who think that younger folk don't deserve to be treated respectfully just by virtue of being young. This happens a lot in classroom settings with teacher/student dynamics. I was a little more sensitive to them than others, having a mild rebellious streak, and if I didn't feel respected by my teacher, ESPECIALLY just because I was a student, I could not bring myself to behave respectfully to them. Not sure if that often rears its ugly head in BDSM mentoring deals, but I'd bet that they're not immune from that sort of thing.

I am reminded of that famous quote from Matilda: "I'm smart, you're dumb. I'm big, you're small. I'm right, you're wrong. And there's nothing you can do about it."

The "I am older, and therefore, better than you" sentiment just never rubbed me the right way.

/slight tangent

 

[teknight]

The idea that age determines the amount of respect you show someone bothers me. I know that there are loads of people who think that younger folk don't deserve to be treated respectfully just by virtue of being young. This happens a lot in classroom settings with teacher/student dynamics. I was a little more sensitive to them than others, having a mild rebellious streak, and if I didn't feel respected by my teacher, ESPECIALLY just because I was a student, I could not bring myself to behave respectfully to them. Not sure if that often rears its ugly head in BDSM mentoring deals, but I'd bet that they're not immune from that sort of thing.

Makes me wonder how much of the rudeness students display is a result of the lack of respect on the part of (some) teachers. I don't mean to generalize, but, in my own experience, most of my teachers in Romania were ...rude, but we were expected to respect them ...because...
Not to absolve me (nor my peers) of any responsibility, but behavior is modeled to an extent.

Let me make myself clear and say I don't think I know better, especially not because of my age/ lack of experience... much as my posts might indicate otherwise.

 

[midwestyankee]

Re the bold - no. My point was that it is possible to get good feelings from nurturing/educating, to be fulfilled by that role, to thrive in a relationship with that fundamental dynamic. The dynamic itself does not necessarily mean that either party is a dick or a fool.

As for the master-of-the-moment folks, if that's whom we're talking about then I'd say we're talking about fantasy-based constructs anyway, so the flavor of the fantasy itself is largely irrelevant. And any comparison to actual, real world relationships is no comparison at all.

What you said was, "There *are* pairings in which one person is demonstrably more capable, wise, mature, strong and sensible than the other. The nurturer feels useful and fulfilled in doing the nurturing, and the nurtured finds comfort and guidance in being nurtured."

My point is that competence (i.e., capability, wisdom, maturity etc. in your list) does not a teacher make. That the more capable partner feels good for doing some nurturing and that the less capable partner feels good for having been nurtured does not in any way mean that the nurturing actually did anything beyond creating good feelings.

And yes, it's my take that for the most part the folks who make the most "my master is such a great teacher" posts are those of the "master of the moment" sort that you mentioned. This is not at all universally true since this thread has prompted several submissive partners to post praise for their partners. But it's the unsolicited and un-prompted sorts of posts that I think Keroin was responding to in the OP.

 

[Keroin]

But it's the unsolicited and un-prompted sorts of posts that I think Keroin was responding to in the OP.

Yes..

 

[JMohegan]

What you said was, "There *are* pairings in which one person is demonstrably more capable, wise, mature, strong and sensible than the other. The nurturer feels useful and fulfilled in doing the nurturing, and the nurtured finds comfort and guidance in being nurtured."

My point is that competence (i.e., capability, wisdom, maturity etc. in your list) does not a teacher make. That the more capable partner feels good for doing some nurturing and that the less capable partner feels good for having been nurtured does not in any way mean that the nurturing actually did anything beyond creating good feelings.

And yes, it's my take that for the most part the folks who make the most "my master is such a great teacher" posts are those of the "master of the moment" sort that you mentioned. This is not at all universally true since this thread has prompted several submissive partners to post praise for their partners. But it's the unsolicited and un-prompted sorts of posts that I think Keroin was responding to in the OP.

From the opening post, this thread moved on to a slam-fest against mentor/mentee or shaper/shapee relationships. Not just a series of "that doesn't work for me, personally" posts, but outright condemnation of the dynamic itself. See, most notably, posts 32, 36, and 42.

The reason I wrote the bit you've quoted is that I was trying to make the point that mentor/mentee, shaper/shapee relationships are not always misguided, unhealthy, unsuccessful, danger will robinson, omg the D must be an arrogant prick, christ the s must a ninny, no rational person would enter into such a thing, disasters. THAT is my point, and my only point. Do you agree or disagree?

I understand your point. I've already agreed with your point! But I really don't know why you keep mentioning it, because I don't see anyone here disputing it.

 

[teknight]

So, this thread touches a sore spot for you, JM?

 

[Recidiva]

There is a huge difference between being competent and being talented and being a teacher.

Sometimes people that are excellent at something are the worst teachers for several reasons. For an inherently gifted person, they didn't "learn" something. Compare someone that has perfect pitch inherently to someone who has to train themselves to name relative tones. The frustration of not being able to tell someone else how to do something can end in impatience in the teacher and frustration for the student. For the life of me, also, I can't teach my son to whistle. I can't break down what I DO into reproducible steps. Someone in my past was able to do so for me, but I can't do it for someone else.

I'm good at cooking, but that doesn't make me good at teaching it, because I don't remember all the mistakes that can be made. So when I tried to teach my daughter to cook, I make lots of assumptions and I can't break it down into all the newbie mistakes someone can make on the subject. I learn to be a better teacher, but I don't THINK like an inherently excellent teacher. I think like someone who knows that obviously pasta for lasagna needs to be boiled first (she got crunchy pasta in her first attempt) and also that you drain pasta before you put in sauce (she put mac and cheese flavoring directly into the water that her pasta is boiling in) and so on. I didn't supervise enough, I didn't break it down enough. I'm not a bad teacher. I take responsibility for someone who is trying to learn from me, and let them know "I should have thought of that, I'm sorry, that's my fault." But I know my limitations. I see these limitations in many talented people who treat their students as if they were stupid. They're not stupid, they're just not practiced yet. And very often the teacher who is talented, isn't breaking it down, isn't finding a way that it would work for their student. The worst is a teacher who gets off on being talented and that their plebe of a student can't get it done. THAT is the stuff that means that student should find a new teacher. Someone who can get it done and not punish the student for not learning. A good teacher makes it easy for someone to learn, and inspires them to learn.

A good teacher is someone that's more like an AA sponsor. They are experienced in all the ways people fuck up, they learned the hard way, and they have a talent for teaching and empathy. They know exactly how to follow a path to get to where someone else wants to get. That path can be duplicated. They are dedicated and patient and they take responsibility for teaching. They don't take it personally if someone else can't duplicate those results. They are patient in repetition and creative in trying new directions based on temperament and in going over every tiny micro-step that must be taken along the way.

I know I'd need to be that person if I take on the burden of teaching. I often fail in doing so. But I know it when I see it.

 

[JMohegan]

So, this thread touches a sore spot for you, JM?

Not in the slightest.

Mentor/mentee is not my style.

 

[Recidiva]

From the opening post, this thread moved on to a slam-fest against mentor/mentee or shaper/shapee relationships. Not just a series of "that doesn't work for me, personally" posts, but outright condemnation of the dynamic itself. See, most notably, posts 32, 36, and 42.

The reason I wrote the bit you've quoted is that I was trying to make the point that mentor/mentee, shaper/shapee relationships are not always misguided, unhealthy, unsuccessful, danger will robinson, omg the D must be an arrogant prick, christ the s must a ninny, no rational person would enter into such a thing, disasters. THAT is my point, and my only point. Do you agree or disagree?

I understand your point. I've already agreed with your point! But I really don't know why you keep mentioning it, because I don't see anyone here disputing it.

I personally have never met a couple where one person is demonstrably more mature or better at everything. I've met people who accomodate each other and let each other think they are. I have to disagree that there's any person who has got it all.

I've met a lot of lonely individuals who think they're smarter and better than everybody else. I've met unappreciative people who think they're smarter and better and are unappreciated.

There's a lot of leeway when real love is present. And there's a lot of people who say that in public an individual keeps up a harsh face but in reality is a marshmallow smush, and that's also my experience.

In the end though, I just prefer a flawed person who feels they can show the same face under social or private circumstances.

This is in my experience, your mileage may vary.

Whatever works for someone else, works. I know what doesn't work for ME.

I also don't think you can assume that "disapproval" of something for an individual personally, means an active expression of that toward another person. People's relationships are out of bounds to me unless I'm asked for advice specifically, and then I need to ask a lot of questions before I come to any useful advice. But I HAVE been asked for lots of advice and I've been given insight into several relationships.

It's a preference, with warning signs for an individual with an aversion to it. Same way you know not to eat a pizza with something on it that you don't like by the smell. There's no problem with it being someone else's favorite thing in the world, just don't try to present it as the bestest perfectest pizza ever and someone who doesn't like it is crazy.