Queer identities, some insights and questions

[MelissaBaby]

Because a lot of it sounds foolish, and folks just being extra.

Sure, because who doesn't want to voluntarily identify as a member of a group that is often reviled, ridiculed, discriminated against and targeted with violence, just for shits and giggles?

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Isn't that the white woman who pretended to be black?

Using her example might make sense if you were trying to entirely deny trans people on the whole. But you do "believe in" transmen and transwomen (my word, not yours). So this doesn't really defend your denial of nonbinary genders or anti-genders. Instead what it appears to do is to belie your belief in transgender people at all.

I'm not saying that's what's happening or you weren't being honest, I'm just saying your thought process seems inconsistent and illogical.

Just own it: You're believing what you want to believe. I wouldn't try being persuasive about it. You don't seem able to make sense of your beliefs. Be free to just own them for what they are.

Sometimes it be like that.
I don't know what you think I'm doing. I'm not trying to persuade anything, just voicing an opinion. Everybody else keeps digging. My beliefs make perfect sense to me, I own them and everything else. Trans folks make sense, that enby stuff doesn't, it's simple.

 

[Britva415]

I don't know what you think I'm doing. I'm not trying to persuade anything, just voicing an opinion. Everybody else keeps digging. My beliefs make perfect sense to me, I own them and everything else. Trans folks make sense, that enby stuff doesn't, it's simple.

You know what, that does make sense and I do respect when someone owns their opinions.

What I thought you were doing, though, was different (Im glad you asked). You were making black and white, absolutist statements as if they were fact without conceding that they were opinions. You weren’t saying NB doesn’t make sense to you, you were saying NB isn’t real. You were actively invalidating people’s lived experience. Repeatedly.

It would have gone very differently if you had just been humble enough from the start to have owned then what you just owned now.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Sure, because who doesn't want to voluntarily identify as a member of a group that is often reviled, ridiculed, discriminated against and targeted with violence, just for shits and giggles?

Grifters?

 

[ColtonWrites]

Sometimes it be like that.
I don't know what you think I'm doing. I'm not trying to persuade anything, just voicing an opinion. Everybody else keeps digging. My beliefs make perfect sense to me, I own them and everything else. Trans folks make sense, that enby stuff doesn't, it's simple.

It doesn't have to make sense to you.

Religious beliefs don't make sense to me. Doesn't mean I go around telling people I won't recognize they're a Christian because I don't agree God exists.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Grifters?

So, in 15 minutes you went from not understanding non-binary people to accusing them of being grifters?

 

[M_K_Babalon]

You know what, that does make sense and I do respect when someone owns their opinions.

What I thought you were doing, though, was different (Im glad you asked). You were making black and white, absolutist statements as if they were fact without conceding that they were opinions. You weren’t saying NB doesn’t make sense to you, you were saying NB isn’t real. You were actively invalidating people’s lived experience. Repeatedly.

It would have gone very differently if you had just been humble enough from the start to have owned then what you just owned now.

I don't believe nonbinary is real, either. I'm not gonna do anything to anybody that claims they are, other than an eye roll at worst. Folks can believe they are all they want to, I'm not gonna stop them. Nobody gotta agree with me either, I don't mind.

 

[Britva415]

So, in 15 minutes you went from not understanding non-binary people to accusing them of being grifters?

I have no idea what to make of that comment, but it has “hired crisis actor” energy

 

[M_K_Babalon]

So, in 15 minutes you went from not understanding non-binary people to accusing them of being grifters?

No. A sarcastic question got a sarcastic answer. Again I present Rachel Dolezal.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

It doesn't have to make sense to you.

Religious beliefs don't make sense to me. Doesn't mean I go around telling people I won't recognize they're a Christian because I don't agree God exists.

Then we're on the same accord.

 

[MelissaBaby]

No. A sarcastic question got a sarcastic answer.

I think we can add sarcasm to the list of things you don't understand.

 

[ColtonWrites]

Then we're on the same accord.

Unless your accord also includes recognizing chosen names and pronouns, the hell we are.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I think we can add sarcasm to the list of things you don't understand.

Rhetorical question, then.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

It doesn't have to make sense to you.

Religious beliefs don't make sense to me. Doesn't mean I go around telling people I won't recognize they're a Christian because I don't agree God exists.

Unless your accord also includes recognizing chosen names and pronouns, the hell we are.

You don't agree god exist, as you openly admitted, but you don't go around accosting christians about it. I openly admitted that enby stuff doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't mean I go around telling people I won't recognize they're enby because I don't agree it's a thing.

Same fucking thing, except nobody is bothering you about it—yet. Although unlike me, you're probably not alone. You feel how you feel, I feel how I feel, and that's all there is to it. I'm sure some christian on here would be as livid as you are, about something just as important to their person.

 

[Britva415]

Doesn't mean I go around telling people I won't recognize they're enby because I don't agree it's a thing.

How is that not exactly what you've been doing in this thread for 2 days now?

In your mind, I mean. Because, in mine, it is exactly yada yada

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Because I was asked. Otherwise I'd have left it at what I said. Yall wanted a breakdown, an explanation. Don't act like it was my intention, when we all could've left it alone. Expressing how I feel, and actively going at people are two different things. Don't even do that.

How is that not exactly what you've been doing in this thread for 2 days now?

In your mind, I mean. Because, in mine, it is exactly yada yada

 

[AwkwardMD]

When someone tells you who they are, believe them.

 

[alohadave]

Sure, because who doesn't want to voluntarily identify as a member of a group that is often reviled, ridiculed, discriminated against and targeted with violence, just for shits and giggles?

This is what tells me that these people are sincere in how they feel. Because who would voluntarily be contrary to societal norms for no good reason?

I may not always understand how they feel, but I deeply respect that they do.

 

[Dodola]

Honestly, using the term lgbtqia+, is conflating sexual preference with gender identity.

Lgb is not the same as tqia+

There may be some who identify as a blend, but it's not just the straight or binary world that is conflating sexuality and gender.

We're doing it too.

 

[Britva415]

Honestly, using the term lgbtqia+, is conflating sexual preference with gender identity.

Lgb is not the same as tqia+

There may be some who identify as a blend, but it's not just the straight or binary world that is conflating sexuality and gender.

We're doing it too.

It's not conflating, it's grouping.

"Queer" includes a lot of different things, but it isn't saying they're all the same thing.

That's why there are so many letters - because they're not conflating different things.

I assume that by "we," you mean LGBTQIA+ people. Because on the other hand, you're right, to bigots, a queer is just a fucking queer no matter what flavor. That's conflation.

 

[stickygirl]

Honestly, using the term lgbtqia+, is conflating sexual preference with gender identity.

Lgb is not the same as tqia+

There may be some who identify as a blend, but it's not just the straight or binary world that is conflating sexuality and gender.

We're doing it too.

I hear ya and for a while I questioned the grouping, but in the end I decided the acronym is a rallying point for people who accept each other - that's why Allies are included in the full set of letters. It doesn't exclude anyone who is cishet and we need all the friends we can get.

If you restrict one's reference to Lit to derive how the particular letters behave and their values, then it would be massively blind-siding.

 

[Dodola]

It's not conflating, it's grouping.

"Queer" includes a lot of different things, but it isn't saying they're all the same thing.

That's why there are so many letters - because they're not conflating different things.

I assume that by "we," you mean LGBTQIA+ people. Because on the other hand, you're right, to bigots, a queer is just a fucking queer no matter what flavor. That's conflation.

No.
Conflating is conflating.
It doesn't take on a special separate meaning when you're speaking from anger about people you see as bigots.
I think the OP was asking legit questions from a valid point of view, but was quickly met with hostility for the way they worded their post.

 

[Britva415]

It doesn't take on a special separate meaning when you're speaking from anger about people you see as bigots

We agree on that.

I'm not sure we agree on the meaning at all, "special" or otherwise.

I think that saying the use of the term LGBTQIA+ is remotely similar to saying "a trans is a homo" is a stupid word-game.

 

[stickygirl]

No.
Conflating is conflating.
It doesn't take on a special separate meaning when you're speaking from anger about people you see as bigots.
I think the OP was asking legit questions from a valid point of view, but was quickly met with hostility for the way they worded their post.

Well yes, but they also asked 'are my assumptions well-founded? which invited discussion. But then there were posters who sought to turn the thread into a flamewar and... that's what happens with certain topics at Lit.

 

[Dodola]

We agree on that.

I'm not sure we agree on the meaning at all, "special" or otherwise.

I think that saying the use of the term LGBTQIA+ is remotely similar to saying "a trans is a homo" is a stupid word-game.

I don't come from an angry place about it, so we might not agree on much.