Republican Health Policy

[BotanyBoy]

I've asked a couple of times, and you haven't answered, so I'll ask once more.
How does the government paying for it make it cheaper?

Making the government pay for it doesn't....making sure everyone has access to preventative medicine before the treatments become an ungodly burden to the taxpayer at the ER (what we do now, and what you advocate in order to keep the profit margins of corporate interest as high as possible) does.

Not to mention the benefits of having a happier healthier society also translate into a more productive society.

You do realize we already have socialized medicine right? That fight was lost the second we decided not to leave the indigent in the streets to die.

Now it's simply of matter of how do we make it the most effective? We make it universal.

How do we make it the most affordable?

Remove corporate interest in profiting off the ill/injured.

Until we do those things we will continue to pay for THE most expensive, broken, socialized HC system on the planet ever. The only reason why? Bunch of morons on the right wing screaming "Cuz MURIKUH!!! FREEDOM N' STUFF!!" and not a single one of you can name 1 god damn freedom you would lose. Not a single fucking one.

 

[CandiCame]

Making the government pay for it doesn't....making sure everyone has access to preventative medicine before the treatments become an ungodly burden to the taxpayer at the ER (what we do now, and what you advocate in order to keep the profit margins of corporate interest as high as possible) does.

Not to mention the benefits of having a happier healthier society also translate into a more productive society.

You do realize we already have socialized medicine right? That fight was lost the second we decided not to leave the indigent in the streets to die.

Now it's simply of matter of how do we make it the most effective? We make it universal.

How do we make it the most affordable?

Remove corporate interest in profiting off the ill/injured.

Until we do those things we will continue to pay for THE most expensive, broken, socialized HC system on the planet ever. The only reason why? Bunch of morons on the right wing screaming "Cuz MURIKUH!!! FREEDOM N' STUFF!!" and not a single one of you can name 1 god damn freedom you would lose. Not a single fucking one.

Not for nothing, bot, but I named the freedom being lost in my last post. And I'm not even a teabagger or whatever.

 

[Bronc31]

Rather than point out and ridicule the myriad false assumptions in your above post, I'm going to take the high road and try a different tack here:

I'll ask you to read a single one-page op-ed on the unicorns and rainbows in Denmark

It's a simple, easy to read description of the Danish health care system.

I challenge you to show us how the Danish single payer system would not work here.

I read it, and it does nothing to refute any point I've made, and there is no reason to think that it won't work exactly the same way here as it does in Denmark. As long as we are willing for our taxes to go up, and some as yet undefined amount of rationing to our healthcare, it will work, exactly as the Dane's designed it.

I am not for it, because I don't want some bureaucrat deciding what treatment I can or can't receive. I don't want to have to wait for something if I don't want to.

At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. We can have exactly the country that we vote for. If universal single payer health care is what we decide, so be it. But we cannot pretend we won't give something up in return.

 

[CandiCame]

I read it, and it does nothing to refute any point I've made, and there is no reason to think that it won't work exactly the same way here as it does in Denmark. As long as we are willing for our taxes to go up, and some as yet undefined amount of rationing to our healthcare, it will work, exactly as the Dane's designed it.

I am not for it, because I don't want some bureaucrat deciding what treatment I can or can't receive. I don't want to have to wait for something if I don't want to.

At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. We can have exactly the country that we vote for. If universal single payer health care is what we decide, so be it. But we cannot pretend we won't give something up in return.

What are you giving up, exactly? That's what I'm not understanding. Do you own a pharmaceutical company?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Not for nothing, bot, but I named the freedom being lost in my last post. And I'm not even a teabagger or whatever.

The freedom I just said he supported.

Sorry bronc....the american people voted to take corporate freedom away to fuck the US tax payer for covering the indigent Americans who are forced to resort to ER care because that same company refuses to insure them, because they make 1,000x as much fucking the tax payer.

Boo fucking hoo....


Now back to individual human beings (not corporations), what freedom is being lost?

 

[CandiCame]

The freedom I just said he supported.

Sorry bronc....the american people voted to take corporate freedom away to fuck the US tax payer for covering the indigent Americans who are forced to resort to ER care because that same company refuses to insure them, because they make 1,000x as much fucking the tax payer.

Boo fucking hoo....


Now back to individual human beings (not corporations), what freedom is being lost?

Oh, yeah. Well talking about actual humans I'm not sure either.

 

[richard_daily]

I read it, and it does nothing to refute any point I've made, and there is no reason to think that it won't work exactly the same way here as it does in Denmark. As long as we are willing for our taxes to go up, and some as yet undefined amount of rationing to our healthcare, it will work, exactly as the Dane's designed it.

I am not for it, because I don't want some bureaucrat deciding what treatment I can or can't receive. I don't want to have to wait for something if I don't want to.

At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. We can have exactly the country that we vote for. If universal single payer health care is what we decide, so be it. But we cannot pretend we won't give something up in return.

So instead, you'd rather have a corporate bureaucrat deciding what treatment you can or cannot have?

You're right, there is no free lunch... but please tell me why before Obamacare, we paid more than twice what ever other civilized nation in the world did per capita for health care, and got lower quality health care?

We have no where to go but up from there.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I read it, and it does nothing to refute any point I've made, and there is no reason to think that it won't work exactly the same way here as it does in Denmark.

Yea...it could work that way.

As long as we are willing for our taxes to go up,

They have to go up...

You silly republicans like to go blow trillions like it's going out of style and slash taxes, then wonder why we have economic problems. Morons.

I am not for it, because I don't want some bureaucrat deciding what treatment I can or can't receive.

Unless it's an abortion right? LOL

And what makes you think they already don't? Insurance CFO pulls your coverage ASAP after you fall ill or a bureaucrat says no....what is the difference?

I don't want to have to wait for something if I don't want to.

THEN DON'T!! UHC won't stop you! There will always be a market for luxury HC.

At the end of the day, there is no free lunch.

DUH...that's what I have been saying, we pay ER price or we pay preventive medicine price. You say you're conservative but you like to pay ER prices....idiot.

We can have exactly the country that we vote for.

We do.

If universal single payer health care is what we decide, so be it. But we cannot pretend we won't give something up in return.

You think we don't give up 2.6T/year for universal ER care??

 

[Sean]

I am not for it, because I don't want some bureaucrat deciding what treatment I can or can't receive. I don't want to have to wait for something if I don't want to.

.

LOL. So you don't have any insurance, you just pay all your medical bills from your pocket, including the million or so something like a brain tumour would cost you?

 

[BotanyBoy]

So instead, you'd rather have a corporate bureaucrat deciding what treatment you can or cannot have?

You're right, there is no free lunch... but please tell me why before Obamacare, we paid more than twice what ever other civilized nation in the world did per capita for health care, and got lower quality health care?

We have no where to go but up from there.

He's a big insurance cheerleader.....he doesn't know why he is or why others find him so fucking scummy for it, but he's going to dig those heels in and "FREEDUMB!!" your ass to death if it's the last thing he does!!

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4712950396290167&pid=1.7

 

[Bronc31]

The freedom I just said he supported.

Sorry bronc....the american people voted to take corporate freedom away to fuck the US tax payer for covering the indigent Americans who are forced to resort to ER care because that same company refuses to insure them, because they make 1,000x as much fucking the tax payer.

Boo fucking hoo....


Now back to individual human beings (not corporations), what freedom is being lost?

Actually,

The freedom that you as an individual will lose is, any choice in your own personal healthcare. You won't decide what Doctor to see, or how he will treat you when you get there. Chances are unless it is an emergency, you'll have to wait to see that Doctor so he can do whatever the government regulation tells him he can do when you get there. I have no idea how intrusive or extreme that will be, chances are that sometime in the future, as I have no idea how old you are, that list of regulations will tell the Doctor, that you are too old, fat or sick to continue your treatment. Is it possible that this is extreme, maybe? What happens when they decide if you smoke, no coverage for you, or some limited amount of coverage. All those things are possible in this system, as we will be giving them control of our healthcare.

As I've said, they ration healthcare in all government run schemes, the gamble we are taking is how much rationing will be needed here...

 

[Sean]

Actually,

The freedom that you as an individual will lose is, any choice in your own personal healthcare. You won't decide what Doctor to see, or how he will treat you when you get there. Chances are unless it is an emergency, you'll have to wait to see that Doctor so he can do whatever the government regulation tells him he can do when you get there. I have no idea how intrusive or extreme that will be, chances are that sometime in the future, as I have no idea how old you are, that list of regulations will tell the Doctor, that you are too old, fat or sick to continue your treatment. Is it possible that this is extreme, maybe? What happens when they decide if you smoke, no coverage for you, or some limited amount of coverage. All those things are possible in this system, as we will be giving them control of our healthcare.

As I've said, they ration healthcare in all government run schemes, the gamble we are taking is how much rationing will be needed here...

I live in the UK. I can choose my doctor, I've never had to wait more than a couple of hours to see a doctor, I can pay privately if I want and the NHS covers a damn sight more medical procedures than any private insurance scheme on the planet.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Actually,

The freedom that you as an individual will lose is, any choice in your own personal healthcare.

Lies. Absolute lies....where are you getting this idea from? I had a choice when I was in the ARMY the most command and control HC system on the planet.

You won't decide what Doctor to see, or

See above...

and even with insurance you're in a network limiting your choice unless you buy a prime time luxury insurance plan, so no freedoms lost.

how he will treat you when you get there.

You don't get to decide how doc's treat you now...no freedom lost.

Chances are unless it is an emergency, you'll have to wait to see that Doctor so he can do whatever the government regulation tells him he can do when you get there.

You mean exactly like the US HC system has been for years??? It's already like that.

I have no idea how intrusive or extreme that will be, chances are that sometime in the future, as I have no idea how old you are, that list of regulations will tell the Doctor, that you are too old, fat or sick to continue your treatment.

Oh....you're an Obama death panel nut. Should have seen that coming.

Is it possible that this is extreme, maybe?

Gee Alex Jones ya think??

What happens when they decide if you smoke, no coverage for you, or some limited amount of coverage.

You mean like insurance companies used to do before that evil Obamacare showed up?

All those things are possible in this system, as we will be giving them control of our healthcare.

Most of them are already happening and the rest of it is nutty conspiracy theories/conjecture/speculation/unsubstantiated bullshit.

As I've said, they ration healthcare in all government run schemes, the gamble we are taking is how much rationing will be needed here...

Yea...managing national resources to solve issues of the people....that's pretty much the primary purpose of every single government that ever existed.

Did you miss school entirely or something? We the People ring a bell???

 

[Bronc31]

Lies. Absolute lies....where are you getting this idea from? I had a choice when I was in the ARMY the most command and control HC system on the planet.

If that doesn't scare you about the government having control of your healthcare, nothing I say here will....

See above...

and even with insurance you're in a network limiting your choice unless you buy a prime time luxury insurance plan, so no freedoms lost.

no argument, see my post about the two tiered healthcare model, the people who can afford it will still continue to get quality care.


You don't get to decide how doc's treat you now...no freedom lost.

I can decide to change Doctors if I don't like the treatment option today. Will I be able to then, or if I can, will he have the option to try something different, or will he do what the regs tell him to do?



You mean exactly like the US HC system has been for years??? It's already like that.

Don't know what you are saying here...



Oh....you're an Obama death panel nut. Should have seen that coming.

I'm no death panel nut, the government will mange end of life care under this scheme. It says so in the bill. We may differ on what we think that means. I hope you are right and I'm wrong.



Gee Alex Jones ya think??

Alex Jones is a for profit entertainer, no relevance here to me.



Did you miss school entirely or something? We the People ring a bell???

The irony of this last line is staggering to me.

rehash of the same tired arguments, we should probably agree to disagree. You can continue to think I'm an idiot, and I'll continue to hope that you are more right about what is about to happen than I am. I'm done.

 

[about_average]

I've asked a couple of times, and you haven't answered, so I'll ask once more.
How does the government paying for it make it cheaper?

For one, preventative care is nearly 100% of the time cheaper than curative (assuming it's something that hasn't gone so far it can't be treated) care.
Also, people who aren't taking days off from work due to illness are more productive.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The irony of this last line is staggering to me.

Why?

What irony?

rehash of the same tired arguments, we should probably agree to disagree.

Yea because you didn't come up with a single reason why you want america to pay more for less, other than you support big insurance companies than the american people.

You can continue to think I'm an idiot, and I'll continue to hope that you are more right about what is about to happen than I am.

If I thought you were an idiot I wouldn't talk to you.....I think you have been mislead and woefully misinformed.

At least you're better than your average republican who wishes failure upon the people in favor of their profit margins.

I'm done.

Not 1 freedom named.

Not a single opinion/feeling substantiated with anything.

Surrender accepted.

 

[about_average]

I am not for it, because I don't want some bureaucrat deciding what treatment I can or can't receive.

If you have insurance, bureaucrats are deciding right now what treatment they'll pay for. If you can afford medical care with no insurance, then no one is, and no one will even with Obamacare.

 

[about_average]

that list of regulations will tell the Doctor, that you are too old, fat or sick to continue your treatment.

Medicare and Tricare don't do that today, why do you think suddenly it's going to change with Obamacare?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Medicare and Tricare don't do that today, why do you think suddenly it's going to change with Obamacare?

http://ozhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/alex-jones.png

 

[richard_daily]

http://ozhouse.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/alex-jones.png

It's not a coincidence that infowars is a dot com.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Medicare and Tricare don't do that today, why do you think suddenly it's going to change with Obamacare?

<clears throat>

That...That...THAT'S DIFFERENT!

 

[CandiCame]

Actually,

The freedom that you as an individual will lose is, any choice in your own personal healthcare. You won't decide what Doctor to see, or how he will treat you when you get there. Chances are unless it is an emergency, you'll have to wait to see that Doctor so he can do whatever the government regulation tells him he can do when you get there. I have no idea how intrusive or extreme that will be, chances are that sometime in the future, as I have no idea how old you are, that list of regulations will tell the Doctor, that you are too old, fat or sick to continue your treatment. Is it possible that this is extreme, maybe? What happens when they decide if you smoke, no coverage for you, or some limited amount of coverage. All those things are possible in this system, as we will be giving them control of our healthcare.

As I've said, they ration healthcare in all government run schemes, the gamble we are taking is how much rationing will be needed here...

Actually, Obamacare is literally the opposite of that. Where are you getting your information? The law literally forbids doctors to discontinue treatment unless the patient requires it. You can no longer be denied treatment for any of the reasons that you've listed above, such as age, weight, gender, or preexisting conditions.

I'm genuinely confused as to why you think this. Because it's the actual opposite of reality. The bill is available for free to read in it's entirety.

 

[Sean]

I live in the UK. I can choose my doctor, I've never had to wait more than a couple of hours to see a doctor, I can pay privately if I want and the NHS covers a damn sight more medical procedures than any private insurance scheme on the planet.

I must be on iggy. Or maybe actual facts about a civilised health care system are too scary.

 

[JohnnySavage]

I must be on iggy. Or maybe actual facts about a civilised health care system are too scary.

You know, what these asshats never seem to acknowledge (or are too stupid to understand), is that Ocare only affects the 20% of the population that either has no insurance, or buys insurance in the individual market.

I has no substantive effect on the 80% of the population that has insurance through their employer (who makes coverage decisions for them) or the government.

Of that 80%, well over half receives their insurance through some type of single-payer government program.

All this bitching about being forced to purchase something is such bullshit. Anyone who's ever received a paycheck, has paid 2.9% of their check into a government health care system.

 

[Bronc31]

I must be on iggy. Or maybe actual facts about a civilised health care system are too scary.

If you were talking to me, I'm not ignoring you, I'm at work, and I didn't see your post.

You're happy with your healthcare, I get it. I hope everything turns our great here as well. I'm mostly arguing at the margin here, as my background is in economics, and that's what I know. I have seen the numbers, and I don't think the Affordable Care Act is going to work out that way here. I have freely admitted, I hope I'm wrong...