The Fundamental Principles of this Great Nation Would be in Jeopardy

[IrezumiKiss]

Maybe she changed her mind after realizing how much fun it is baiting a phony..

When you have nothing left to stand on, that is pretty fun to do. You'll be the only one having fun, but...

you know Miles, no matter how much you champion dear, young, immature Karen - I still doubt she'll phone bone you.

bwahahahahaha

 

[mark_j]

All posts of an historic nature must reflect some sort of research -- either through books and magazines, or the Internet.

I hope you aren't implying that I don't know this.. I am well aware that we have to depend on some sort of written research since I would be willing to bet that none of us were actually there, recent history not withstanding.. I am also well aware that Wiki does have some problems with presenting the facts without bias.. But for the most part, from what I have seen, if the information in the article is of "questionable" value or source, Wiki tends to put out a side note stating such... So in a left handed way I was defending you somewhat... I did as well clearly point out that Lavy has the tendency to be rude in her distaste of Wiki or anything else she deems to be "cut and paste".

Unlike the OP, I was not actually present when Jefferson and Madison were discussing social and political ideology, so I am forced to depend on published works. I envy the OP, as she has first hand knowledge of classical philosophy, having personally been in the room, forum, tent, when they were originally formulated. That's why they had to enlarge the tent.

That's nice.. Neither were the rest of us (unless someone here has divine powers). But what I do complain about in my first post was the fact that whether you agree with her or not enlarging the screen to make your point was just as rude as the snarkiness over the alleged cut and paste posting..

The door swings both ways. At least give others the benefit of reading the entire post if we are so inclined without having to reset everything to take the obnoxious picture out of the way first...

 

[Karen Kraft]

Funny as that isn't what you said.

what you did say was -

For someone who just isn't worth your time you've spent a lot of it throwing this little temper tantrum - even going so far as to bump other threads by Lavy as your own way of stomping and flailing your arms about.

If you really want to prove your stance of her "not worth my time" why not just take that ball and go home already.

So what's your point?

You unhappy that I continue to participate in this thread? If so, why?

The discussion is fine with the hippo gone.

 

[Karen Kraft]

I hope you aren't implying that I don't know this.. I am well aware that we have to depend on some sort of written research since I would be willing to bet that none of us were actually there, recent history not withstanding.. I am also well aware that Wiki does have some problems with presenting the facts without bias.. But for the most part, from what I have seen, if the information in the article is of "questionable" value or source, Wiki tends to put out a side note stating such... So in a left handed way I was defending you somewhat... I did as well clearly point out that Lavy has the tendency to be rude in her distaste of Wiki or anything else she deems to be "cut and paste".

I wasn't suggesting that you did not know that. Sorry if that's how you read it. What I was saying is that we all do research, formal or informal, to learn about things past and present. Then we discuss them. Or, at least that's how it is supposed to go...

As for the OP dismissing everything she doesn't like as "cut-and-paste wiki," that furthers the discussion exactly as far as a picture of pie.

I can dismiss everyone who disagrees with me as a "cut-and-paste wiki poster child of bad public education" too. Why not? It's pointless.

But when that's all you've got, you wiki-rant, as Lavatory does. Clearly, she did not want me spoiling her party. Why discuss the thread topic when you can insult other people's posts? No thought required. Plus, it's good for the yeah-yeah rally folks, to keep all thought expressed free from challenge.

Great.

 

[Odd_ball]

1: Supporting "free enterprise": BUZZZZZ! Wrong. Alaska supports corporate welfare to the extreme. They have never built one pipeline or oil field without tax dollars.

2. Supporting property rights: Palin is currently in trouble over the land she had a hockey rink built on (with tax dollars).

3. Free market economics: (I refuse to type in French ) Not really. Free markets do not take more money from the government than any other state.

4. Right to contract: like the "brdige to nowhere contract"? She kept the money and built a road , instead. Again with tax money.

5. The biggest whopper of all: "opposed to the welfare state". Karen. How can you even be serious? Really?? I mean, REALLY????

You do realize that just being a citizen of Alaska gets you over $1,000 a year in other state's tax money, don't you? For doing absolutely nothing other than being a citizen of the state.

Now, you know me, and should know that I am more than capable, (even to an annoying degree) of making my own judgements about people.

How interesting. Actually Orwellian "newspeak" the neocons spout.

 

[mark_j]

How interesting. Actually Orwellian "newspeak" the neocons spout.

Pssssstt.. hey man.. you really need to stop sniffing the silver paint... your quoting yourself

 

[Karen Kraft]

How interesting. Actually Orwellian "newspeak" the neocons spout.

The comparison is simple.

Do you think the founding fathers ideology is more akin to that of Barack Obama?

That's the question. My point was that the founding fathers would probably like what Palin has to say more than what Obama has to say.

It's not about our critique of 21st Century public administration in terms of 18th Century definitions.

Were the founding fathers sitting in the room, alive, alert, and healthy, would they see clearer resonance in Palin's position or Obama's position?

 

[Odd_ball]

Pssssstt.. hey man.. you really need to stop sniffing the silver paint... your quoting yourself

The word is "you're". Do you sniff paint or are you just naturally illiterate?

I quoted myself because KK refused to respond to me. Tough to come up with bullshit when faced with truth, I suppose.

 

[Odd_ball]

The comparison is simple.

Do you think the founding fathers ideology is more akin to that of Barack Obama?

That's the question. My point was that the founding fathers would probably like what Palin has to say more than what Obama has to say.

It's not about our critique of 21st Century public administration in terms of 18th Century definitions.

Were the founding fathers sitting in the room, alive, alert, and healthy, would they see clearer resonance in Palin's position or Obama's position?

I already addressed getting into a pissing contest over which one is "more like the founding fathers". Neither are.

The Founders would have Palin deported for supporting the Patriot Act.

 

[Karen Kraft]

I already addressed getting into a pissing contest over which one is "more like the founding fathers". Neither are.

The Founders would have Palin deported for supporting the Patriot Act.

The founding fathers would have thrown her from the room since she is a girl.

God only knows what they would do to Obama!

 

[Odd_ball]

The founding fathers would have thrown her from the room since she is a girl.

God only knows what they would do to Obama!

Probably stood in bewildered amazement that a black man could have ever reached the heights in the USA that he has achieved. Especially back then.

I still claim that the REAL "powers that be" in the world are testing the USA with this election.

We claim to be "the most racially tolerant" Nation, etc etc.

So, they are going to make us prove it. Interesting times. I have faith in the USA to make the right decisions despite the vocal subversive elements that like to post here.

 

[Shagly]

My horniness is in jeopardy if Sarah Palin is elected as a V.P.

 

[mark_j]

The word is "you're". Do you sniff paint or are you just naturally illiterate?

I quoted myself because KK refused to respond to me. Tough to come up with bullshit when faced with truth, I suppose.

Oh boohoo Mr. Spelling NAZI..

you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're

Did I write it enough times teacher? What's wrong? Can't take a little ribbing? Or are you the only one, by divine decree, that is allowed?

BTW who's bullshit? Yours?

 

[Odd_ball]

Oh boohoo Mr. Spelling NAZI..

you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're you're

Did I write it enough times teacher? What's wrong? Can't take a little ribbing? Or are you the only one, by divine decree, that is allowed?

BTW who's bullshit? Yours?

When insinuating someone of possessing a less superior intellect due to paint sniffing, it is advisable to not misspell simple words to avoid looking like a complete jackass.

Call it what you will. Irony, Karma, maybe a divine intervention to let everyone know the truth of the matter.

 

[mark_j]

I wasn't suggesting that you did not know that. Sorry if that's how you read it. What I was saying is that we all do research, formal or informal, to learn about things past and present. Then we discuss them. Or, at least that's how it is supposed to go...

Uh, yeah. That is how it is supposed to go.. but we all know how that works out...

He said
She said
Oh yeah?
Well, your mama wears combat boots..

Note to Odd.. I used your correctly here.. Do I get a prize now?

As for the OP dismissing everything she doesn't like as "cut-and-paste wiki," that furthers the discussion exactly as far as a picture of pie.

I can dismiss everyone who disagrees with me as a "cut-and-paste wiki poster child of bad public education" too. Why not? It's pointless.

But when that's all you've got, you wiki-rant, as Lavatory does. Clearly, she did not want me spoiling her party. Why discuss the thread topic when you can insult other people's posts? No thought required. Plus, it's good for the yeah-yeah rally folks, to keep all thought expressed free from challenge.

Great.

Seems to be the way of postings in political threads..I'm right, you're wrong (see Odd I used it correctly here again) and anything you say to the contrary of my position is bullshit..

 

[mark_j]

When insinuating someone of possessing a less superior intellect due to paint sniffing, it is advisable to not misspell simple words to avoid looking like a complete jackass.

Call it what you will. Irony, Karma, maybe a divine intervention to let everyone know the truth of the matter.

Ahh I see, oh great one... Should I bow down and lick your (again I used it right) boots now?

 

[Odd_ball]

Ahh I see, oh great one... Should I bow down and lick your (again I used it right) boots now?

Good to see you finally accept your own ignorance on this issue.

Back to topic:

Palin's policies would make the Founders vomit. Every citizen in her state gets over $1000 dollars of every other states' tax money per year. (Well, to be honest, mostly blue states).
Just for living there.

Please tell me how in any way, shape, or form, this meshes with the original ideals manifested in the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, or the Constitution.

 

[mark_j]

Good to see you finally accept your own ignorance on this issue.

Back to topic:

Palin's policies would make the Founders vomit. Every citizen in her state gets over $1000 dollars of every other states' tax money per year. (Well, to be honest, mostly blue states).
Just for living there.

Please tell me how in any way, shape, or form, this meshes with the original ideals manifested in the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, or the Constitution.

Since the 1000 bucks, from my understanding (without a lot of research), comes mostly from oil royalties, tell me how it would even matter what the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, or the Constitution says?

 

[lavender]

I have to say that Jinxed has really grown into being one of the best bearers of zingers on this board.

This post was somewhat of a purge that I had last night. It really wasn't something that was thought out for the post. I had listened to news for 3 1/2 hours during my drive home yesterday and got worked up. First, I got amazingly angry and pissed off. Then, I got a bit more contemplative. And then, I felt a need to get it out - and voila.

It was a quick post of frantic typing - and when I looked back at it a bit more of glittering generalities than I normally post. But, it was what I was thinking - not what I've read - but the sum of conversations I've had and things I have seen. I tried to stay away from the uber vitriol and despite Karen Kraft's link to feministing - this was definitely no feminist post from me. At some point, I'll actually be able to put to words what Sarah Palin's candidacy means to me as a woman beyond just talking about how insulted I feel, how cynical I feel our nation has become, and lack understanding of some women in this country.

But, this post was really about things that at their core we can agree upon. I thought I gave some strong nods to Republicans past - in a way that I normally do not.

My comment to Karen Kraft about wiki-culture was probably a bit misplaced in this thread. I should have posted it in a thread where she was doing her normal cut and pastes and just responded to her as I came back to do to say that the idea of classical liberalism doesn't apply to Palin - no way no how.

But, thanks for the comments IK, Ailea, Sugahh, and others. And thanks for the smackdown, WE.

I will never forget the phrase phone bone.

 

[Sharon_]

The real foreign policy guru on either ticken is Biden.
[...]

I vote foreign policy #1 almost every election.

OMI, you really are in a pickle now, aren't you?

"In the popular media wisdom, Sarah Palin is the neophyte who knows nothing about foreign policy while Joe Biden is the savvy diplomatic pro. Then what are we to make of Mr. Biden's fantastic debate voyage last week when he made factual claims that would have got Mrs. Palin mocked from New York to Los Angeles?

Start with Lebanon, where Mr. Biden asserted that "When we kicked -- along with France, we kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, I said and Barack said, 'Move NATO forces in there. Fill the vacuum, because if you don't know -- if you don't, Hezbollah will control it.' Now what's happened? Hezbollah is a legitimate part of the government in the country immediately to the north of Israel."

The U.S. never kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon, and no one else has either. Perhaps Mr. Biden meant to say Syria, except that the U.S. also didn't do that. The Lebanese ousted Syria's military in 2005. As for NATO, Messrs. Biden and Obama may have proposed sending alliance troops in, but if they did that was also a fantasy. The U.S. has had all it can handle trying to convince NATO countries to deploy to Afghanistan.

Speaking of which, Mr. Biden also averred that "Our commanding general in Afghanistan said the surge principle in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan." In trying to correct him, Mrs. Palin mispronounced the general's name -- saying "General McClellan" instead of General David McKiernan. But Mr. Biden's claim was the bigger error, because General McKiernan said that while "Afghanistan is not Iraq," he also said a "sustained commitment" to counterinsurgency would be required. That is consistent with Mr. McCain's point that the "surge principles" of Iraq could work in Afghanistan.

Then there's the Senator's astonishing claim that Mr. Obama "did not say he'd sit down with Ahmadinejad" without preconditions. Yet Mr. Biden himself criticized Mr. Obama on this point in 2007 at the National Press Club: "Would I make a blanket commitment to meet unconditionally with the leaders of each of those countries within the first year I was elected President? Absolutely, positively no."

Or how about his rewriting of Bosnia history to assert that John McCain didn't support President Clinton in the 1990s. "My recommendations on Bosnia, I admit I was the first one to recommend it. They saved tens of thousands of lives. And initially John McCain opposed it along with a lot of other people. But the end result was it worked." Mr. Biden's immodesty aside, Mr. McCain supported Mr. Clinton on Bosnia, as did Bob Dole even as he was running against him for President in 1996 -- in contrast to the way Mr. Biden and Democratic leaders have tried to undermine President Bush on Iraq.

Closer to home, the Delaware blarney stone also invited Americans to join him at "Katie's restaurant" in Wilmington to witness middle-class struggles. Just one problem: Katie's closed in the 1980s. The mistake is more than a memory lapse because it exposes how phony is Mr. Biden's attempt to pose for this campaign as Lunchbucket Joe.

We think the word "lie" is overused in politics today, having become a favorite of the blogosphere and at the New York Times. So we won't say Mr. Biden was deliberately making events up when he made these and other false statements. Perhaps he merely misspoke. In any case, Mrs. Palin may not know as much about the world as Mr. Biden does, but at least most of what she knows is true."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122325448093406451.html

 

[Karen Kraft]

I [****]

My comment to Karen Kraft about wiki-culture was probably a bit misplaced in this thread. I should have posted it in a thread where she was doing her normal cut and pastes ****
[blah blah blah]

Such as what? Examples?

Or are you just making stuff up again?

Hmmm?

.... and please don't cite to copy and paste photographs in the Slender Angels thread.....

Thank you.

 

[Azwed]

As usual Lavey, you make some good points, but I refuse to vote for a Presidential candidate based on the qualifications or lack thereof of his or her vice presidential candidate.

I am voting for McCain because Obama scares me as much as Palin scares you.

Sarah Palin is getting far more attention in this campaign than she deserves. I am convinced that if McCain is elected she will play an extremely insignificant role in his administration.

The heartbeat away ramifications are real, but certainly not inevitable as many seem to believe.

Besides, if I have to chose between a president whose major characteristic is lack of depth versus one who I believe to be sinister and manipulative, I'll go with lack of depth.

I would have to say that last sentence is a perfect summation of the Bush/Cheney administration.


Up until late spring/early summer I was still a little torn on who to vote for. Obama is a little to far to left for me. I consider myself to be a centrist/moderate on most issues. I like McCain or well I should say I liked the old McCain. I would have voted for him in 2000 in a heartbeat. I think he should have challenged Bush for the nomination in 2004. Now that would been a real maverick thing to do.

Even as McCain tacked farther and farther to the right I still wasn't really ready to vote for Obama. I thought I would probably vote for a third party candidate in the end. By the time Palin had been picked I was pretty much done with McCain but I still wasn't necessarily going to vote for Obama. By the time I learned more about Palin, I had only seen her before on some interviews with the CNBC show Kudlow & Company back in July, I realized the McCain I liked was gone. He had been crushed under republican base or maybe driven by his own ambition to become president he had given up most of his ideals.

I just can't see the McCain of 2000 picking Palin as a running mate. I cannot believe the McCain of 2000 would authorize the truly despicable negative attach ads and statements of the past few weeks.

The final straw is this latest attack over the weekend by Palin. To insinuate that Obama is somehow friends with terrorists, when most people don't have a clue who William Ayers is but have probably heard or read the dastardly emails claiming Obama is a Muslim and a radical, is simply beyond anything I can ever imagine McCain doing. Most of the people I work with are in their 50s to 60s and the majority of them didn't know who William Ayers is.

All of them were disgusted by what McCain is trying to do.

 

[lavender]

Obama is actually less liberal than Kerry and is more of a pragmatist in my opinion that some left-wing liberal.

 

[Azwed]

Obama is actually less liberal than Kerry and is more of a pragmatist in my opinion that some left-wing liberal.

I am posting more from feeling then looking at a detailed copy of his voting record. Obama feels more liberal then Kerry to me and I think his voting record at least in 2007 was more liberal then Kerry. Of course a one year voting record is not a very good measure either.

 

[Odd_ball]

Since the 1000 bucks, from my understanding (without a lot of research), comes mostly from oil royalties, tell me how it would even matter what the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, or the Constitution says?

Simple, how would the Founding Fathers think about taking money from "the free market" oil companies and giving it to every citizen?

Maybe California should start taking dividends from Produce companies?

Or Washington could take some of Boeing's profits and distribute them?