The Odyssey

[Kelliezgirl]

Tom Cruise would never get any work if height were a primary concern in filmmaking

Yeah... he didn't get soundly criticized for being too short to play Jack Reacher because.... wait for it... Reacher is a big dude in the source material.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There is also a very willful missing of the point in the seeming inconsistency in applauding diversity in a historically homogeneous industry. The issue with Gods of Egypt and the like is not only historical accuracy: the issue people have is that white people have always dominated casting, and when a movie that should represent an opportunity for others to get some decent roles is passed by in favor of the usual suspects, it's a bummer.

If you don't see the benefit in diverse casting, okay, fine. Enjoy Gods of Egypt or whatever. But don't act like you're unraveling the conspiracy when you ask why those same issues aren't being raised by the same people for The Odyssey.

If you actually want equality, then the same rules apply to everyone.
If we can cast any person in any part then the argument that these movies present some special opportunity for people to get a chance is nonsensical.


Please explain the "benefits of diverse casting?"

 

[crookedletter]

Please explain the "benefits of diverse casting?"

There are plenty of movies stocked full of cisgender white folks of average to above average height for you to enjoy. I don't need to try to convince you to be open minded.

 

[Writer61]

Yeah, Newsmax and some other right-wing sources fell for the hoax and were producing all kinds of breathless commentary about it, I think Elon Musk retweeted it too.

You mean that they didn't fact-check? I'm shocked.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I just watched it, mostly to see my mythology-obsessed teenager watch it, take notes, and complain about the differences from the book (has read a couple translations). Kid rated it a solid 7 out of 10, and was enjoying it throughout, as was I to the point that neither of us needed a loo break and half our snacks were still there at the end. Kid would like to have seen more of the gods, particularly Hermes, and their spats with each other, but thought the soundtrack and most of the filming was good.



I think they did OK with what was included and the flashes from Odysseus past/present and Ithaca. It evoked the atmosphere of Ancient Greece and sailing that area pretty well, not that I could tell you if the historical details were.perfect, but it was definitely better than your typical Hollywood Ye Merrie Olden Times. The script was adequate to serve the plot - not inspiring but not cringemaking either, except possibly the 'Dad!' at the end when Telemachus finally does something useful rather than wander round like a tall gormless hobbit.



My main criticism would be the acting - there wasn't really any. Matt Damon looked beautifully strong and gruff and filled up the screen nicely. Same with most of the others. Sinon's role is to be young, brave, and to die. Page did that as adequately as any of the cast. Any rare form of beauty has been prized, so making Helen an 'Ethiop' really shouldn't be a big deal (she's on screen for about three minutes). I'm honestly not sure what political message it's supposed to be sending, apart from re-wrapping Jesus' words on welcoming poor beggars and making up 'Zeus's Law' - which in the film serves partly to make clear that 'we are people who respect the real gods, as opposed to those heathens across the water', as much as welcoming strangers (or not).

It's been promoted hugely, like Barbieheimer was - half the double-decker buses have it on. And it's probably worth seeing it on a big screen. It's at least an original plot for recent films, as opposed to yet another comics adaptation, horror movie or Fast and Furious - so not a wasted few hours.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I can understand why there is a wish to cast according to type, but how far does it go?

Must gay characters be played by gay actors? Turn that around: can gay actors only play gay characters? Should Daniel Day-Lewis return his Oscar for playing a man with cerebral palsy? Only Greek actors play Greek characters? Are disabled actors prohibited from playing characters who are not specifically mentioned as being disabled in the script? And, where would Star Trek be without aliens?

Well, that seems to be the case.

Scarlett Johanson was going to play Dante Gill in Rub & Tug, but apparently only a trans person can play a trans person. So the movie just never got made...

Casting gets criticized all the time, unfortunately some people see the whole world through some weird lens where it all has to be about checking boxes and fitting into categories.

Some people just aren't right for the part.

Good example, Thank You for Smoking is a great movie. Aaron Eckhart describes this total femme fatale character... and out comes Katie Holmes.
She is not at all a femme fatale. Very attractive woman, but not in that way. It just doesn't work.

Elliot Page is great in Umbrella Academy. I just don't think he's a good choice for a warrior.

The problem is that people can't accept any criticism of people they place in a protected class as legitimate.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I just watched it, mostly to see my mythology-obsessed teenager watch it, take notes, and complain about the differences from the book (has read a couple translations). Kid rated it a solid 7 out of 10, and was enjoying it throughout, as was I to the point that neither of us needed a loo break and half our snacks were still there at the end. Kid would like to have seen more of the gods, particularly Hermes, and their spats with each other, but thought the soundtrack and most of the filming was good.



I think they did OK with what was included and the flashes from Odysseus past/present and Ithaca. It evoked the atmosphere of Ancient Greece and sailing that area pretty well, not that I could tell you if the historical details were.perfect, but it was definitely better than your typical Hollywood Ye Merrie Olden Times. The script was adequate to serve the plot - not inspiring but not cringemaking either, except possibly the 'Dad!' at the end when Telemachus finally does something useful rather than wander round like a tall gormless hobbit.



My main criticism would be the acting - there wasn't really any. Matt Damon looked beautifully strong and gruff and filled up the screen nicely. Same with most of the others. Sinon's role is to be young, brave, and to die. Page did that as adequately as any of the cast. Any rare form of beauty has been prized, so making Helen an 'Ethiop' really shouldn't be a big deal (she's on screen for about three minutes). I'm honestly not sure what political message it's supposed to be sending, apart from re-wrapping Jesus' words on welcoming poor beggars and making up 'Zeus's Law' - which in the film serves partly to make clear that 'we are people who respect the real gods, as opposed to those heathens across the water', as much as welcoming strangers (or not).

It's been promoted hugely, like Barbieheimer was - half the double-decker buses have it on. And it's probably worth seeing it on a big screen. It's at least an original plot for recent films, as opposed to yet another comics adaptation, horror movie or Fast and Furious - so not a wasted few hours.

I love the fact you are calling a story from Ancient Greece "an Original Plot".
It's been done literally a dozen times on film.

O Brother Where Art Thou is still the best film version

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There are plenty of movies stocked full of cisgender white folks of average to above average height for you to enjoy. I don't need to try to convince you to be open minded.

So watching film from all over the world doesn't make me "open minded"? The Koreans and Indians are making some bangers, but those casts aren't very diverse, so I guess they don't count?
I appreciate cinema for it's quality, not because someone checked boxes when they were casting.

 

[Writer61]

Some people just aren't right for the part.

Indeed, and the more people demand actors who conform to characters' traits, the greater the risk of that.

 

[anthrodisiac]

Humans: Live in a world constantly in chaos, imminent dangers, economic disturbances
Also humans: Bickering over who ought to play a part in a movie like it's the only thing that matters

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Indeed, and the more people demand actors who conform to characters' traits, the greater the risk of that.

How is that a risk? There is no shortage of actors with any appearance you could ask for?
The issue is we should make sure an actor LOOKS the part.

When actors don't look the part it breaks thr immersion. We talk quite a bit about verisimilitude in our writing, and it's every bit as important in film. If we played by the modern "no whitewashing" rules we wouldn't have gotten Al Pacino on Scarface playing a Cuban, because he wouldn't check the right diversity box. Never mind that he could pass for Cuban and had an all time great performance.

 

[Writer61]

The only miscasting that truly bothers me is a white actor browning/blacking up. Beyond that, I expect the director to choose the best actor for a role.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Humans: Live in a world constantly in chaos, imminent dangers, economic disturbances
Also humans: Bickering over who ought to play a part in a movie like it's the only thing that matters

Dude, we live in the safest, most prosperous time in the history of mankind. We are so safe people have to invent things to be afraid of.

Dinosaurs, wasting time on internet forums instead of building a space program that could save them.

 

[Writer61]

How is that a risk?

Because a smaller pool limits choices.

There is no shortage of actors with any appearance you could ask for?

That depends on how many criteria are applied.

The issue is we should make sure an actor LOOKS the part.

I would rather have an actor who can PLAY the part.

 

[anthrodisiac]

Dude, we live in the safest, most prosperous time in the history of mankind. We are so safe people have to invent things to be afraid of.

Oh, I know. But people will focus on the most inane things to clutch pearls over and fret about, instead of tackling real challenges and addressing big problems, because they can't really do anything about those, so they choose to focus on tiny, insignificant things to feel some semblance of control. Also, evolutionary psychology.

Humans, wasting time on internet forums instead of building a space program that could save them.

Fixed it for you.

We tried to build a space program, but do you know how hard it is to get all the nuts and bolts on a rocket in place when you got tiny t-rex arms?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Because a smaller pool limits choices.


I would rather have an actor who can PLAY the part.

Of course a smaller pool limits choices, that's rather the point. It limits the choices to actors that make sense for the part.

And I'm sorry, I thought acting talent was a given in this context.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Oh, I know. But people will focus on the most inane things to clutch pearls over and fret about, instead of tackling real challenges and addressing big problems, because they can't really do anything about those, so they choose to focus on tiny, insignificant things. Also, evolutionary psychology.


Fixed it for you.

We tried to build a space program, but do you know how hard it is to get all the nuts and bolts on a rocket in place when you got tiny t-rex arms?

So you need to invent something to help you with the arm problem.

And I agree... in this thread you have people being outraged that someone else is outraged. How absurd is that?
Like seriously?
If someone somewhere doesn't want to see the movie because Eliot Page is in it.... that has zero impact on their lives. But they need to come here and be outraged so they can show all their fellow travelers that they are outraged about the right thing.
And it's all because their lives are all incredibly safe and secure. They never have to face a real bear, so they spend their days battling imaginary ones.

 

[Voboy]

The issue is we should make sure an actor LOOKS the part.

I generally agree with you, but I also know there are MANY artistic or narrative reasons why a director might cast someone different.

I've seen enough Nolan to assume he's got a reason for casting Page. I'll save my outrage for after I actually see the movie and know what I'm talking about.

 

[crookedletter]

And I agree... in this thread you have people being outraged that someone else is outraged. How absurd is that?
Like seriously?
If someone somewhere doesn't want to see the movie because Eliot Page is in it.... that has zero impact on their lives. But they need to come here and be outraged so they can show all their fellow travelers that they are outraged about the right thing.
And it's all because their lives are all incredibly safe and secure. They never have to face a real bear, so they spend their days battling imaginary ones.

Your point seems to be that it's irrational to engage in online discussions?

Honestly I can't really dispute the point. But you've chosen a curious venue make that claim so forcefully.

 

[Writer61]

Of course a smaller pool limits choices, that's rather the point. It limits the choices to actors that make sense for the part.

My point was about traits, not appearance.

And I'm sorry, I thought acting talent was a given in this context.

It should be, but the way some react, it seems they would favour conformity with character over that.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I generally agree with you, but I also know there are MANY artistic or narrative reasons why a director might cast someone different.

I've seen enough Nolan to assume he's got a reason for casting Page. I'll save my outrage for after I actually see the movie and know what I'm talking about.

Now we just need to get people to stop screaming that it was such perfect casting without having seen it....

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Your point seems to be that it's irrational to engage in online discussions?

Honestly I can't really dispute the point. But you've chosen a curious venue make that claim so forcefully.

Forcefully? It's a simple observation...

 

[anthrodisiac]

Now we just need to get people to stop screaming that it was such perfect casting without having seen it....

And that it was such terrible casting without having seen it.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

And that it was such terrible casting without having seen it.

I believe that was the point Voboy already made.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

Filmmaking is a peripatetic existence: most directors cast people they know they like, or can trust, or are just plain excited to work with. The experience of making the film - who they work with, connect with, share the experience with - is as important to most filmmakers as the final film.

Beyond that, the most important actors are cast according to their ability to attract other actors or finance.

Only then do you get into the business of whether an actor is right for the part. And 'right for the part' can be interpreted a million ways - including ‘will this actor freak out the right wing culture warriors?’ (because what you think of a film before you go into it is as much a part of the film as the story itself).