The Odyssey

[Writer61]

Tom Cruise would never get any work if height were a primary concern in filmmaking

There's always a live-action Snow White and the Seven Dwarves to be filmed.

 

[SimonDoom]

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I'm going to pass on any judgment about casting choices for the time being. But it seems to me that if you accept Matt Damon as an ancient Greek king, you can't get too worked up about casting choices that seem racially ahistorical. The Odyssey is myth, not history.

 

[CalBishForNow]

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I'm going to pass on any judgment about casting choices for the time being. But it seems to me that if you accept Matt Damon as an ancient Greek king, you can't get too worked up about casting choices that seem racially ahistorical. The Odyssey is myth, not history.

I like what you're saying, but at the same time, given his roles in Saving Private Ryan, The Martian, and Interstellar, I feel like they could have cast him as Odysseus even if  he were black.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This thread once again proves what I said so many times. It's not possible to talk about certain topics in the AH. The amount of unnecessary mockery and the sheer lack of objectivity, on both sides, even if they are unequally represented here, is truly sad.

Make of that what you want. I have seen the movie, and I am about to write a review of it here, with some minor spoilers. Oh, the irony of what I am going to write, having in mind what 70% of this thread has been...

 

[MillieDynamite]

Shush, several people have touted this film as historically accurate, freaking gods and all! Likewise, I haven't seen the film, but if gods there be in the film, any runt can have supernatural strength, even though the transgender they complained about didn't play the part they thought it was. There are so many involved in his discussion I've lost track of who's one who's side. Who or whom, oh bother, I'm not sure.

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I'm going to pass on any judgment about casting choices for the time being. But it seems to me that if you accept Matt Damon as an ancient Greek king, you can't get too worked up about casting choices that seem racially ahistorical. The Odyssey is myth, not history.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

There's always a live-action Snow White and the Seven Dwarves to be filmed.

Yeah... they already tried that.... apparently stunt casting Rachel Zegler was a bad idea.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Shush, several people have touted this film as historically accurate, freaking gods and all! Likewise, I haven't seen the film, but if gods there be in the film, any runt can have supernatural strength, even though the transgender they complained about didn't play the part they thought it was. There are so many involved in his discussion I've lost track of who's one who's side. Who or whom, oh bother, I'm not sure.

Why did you think the gods favored Sinon with all that greatness? You never explained that...

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I'm going to pass on any judgment about casting choices for the time being. But it seems to me that if you accept Matt Damon as an ancient Greek king, you can't get too worked up about casting choices that seem racially ahistorical. The Odyssey is myth, not history.

So was Gods of Egypt, but you can criticize that casting... sauce for the gander and all that.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I didn't; you said he was playing, or rather implied he was playing, Achilles.

Why did you think the gods favored Sinon with all that greatness? You never explained that...

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I didn't; you said he was playing, or rather implied he was playing, Achilles.

I did no such thing, I said he played a great warrior... there were plenty of those in the Odyssey... then you jumped in to say the Gods made him bad ass, so it was OK.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I haven't seen the movie yet, so I'm going to pass on any judgment about casting choices for the time being. But it seems to me that if you accept Matt Damon as an ancient Greek king, you can't get too worked up about casting choices that seem racially ahistorical. The Odyssey is myth, not history.

Makes a change from Star Wars, is all I can say at this point.

EB looks at all the gob smacked faces. "What, you got a problem with that?"

 

[MillieDynamite]

@Kelliezgirl The character they played wasn't a warrior. And you said the greatest warrior on earth. That was Achilles, not Sinon. Also, to your point about small actors playing powerful people, Al Pacino was five-three and weighed about 120 pounds (if that) when he played Michael Corleone the first time, and when he played Serpico. In addition to him, you have Joe Pesci, no great stature, nor a dangerous build. But both men scare the shit out of the big guys in the room in many of their films.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sinon was a Greek warrior, but more importantly, a master spy during the Trojan War. Spy's don't have to be great fighters, but great tricksters.

 

[crookedletter]

Makes a change from Star Wars, is all I can say at this point.

True: we can all agree Star Wars is historically accurate.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

@Kelliezgirl The character they played wasn't a warrior. And you said the greatest warrior on earth. That was Achilles, not Sinon. Also, to your point about small actors playing powerful people, Al Pacino was five-three and weighed about 120 pounds (if that) when he played Michael Corleone the first time, and when he played Serpico. In addition to him, you have Joe Pesci, no great stature, nor a dangerous build. But both men scare the shit out of the big guys in the room in many of their films.

Simon was a warrior, and I didn't say greatest. And you said the gods were on his side, care to explain?

Yeah, Pesci and Pacino carry themselves that way. Some people are intimidating inspite of their stature... Eliot Page is not.
Not everyone is cut out to play tough guy roles.
As I mentioned in another example, Katie Holmes is a very attractive woman, she's not a good femme fatale. Great in other roles.
Not every actor is cut out to play every part.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

THE REVIEW

​

First, I am going to give you a rating, since this is the AH after all. We love our ratings more than anything here.

Well, the movie is quite mediocre, which was somewhat surprising to me. Whatever Nolan had, it's clear to me that he doesn't have it anymore. I'll go into details later about arcs, the lack of them, and what I feel is the only true message of this movie.

But first, let's talk about the huge elephant that has been dominating this thread.

There isn't an atom of woke content in this movie.
Absolute fucking zero. And I will expand on it, and as you will see, protest because of it.

1. The trans actor plays a small role and a side character, Sinon. There is zero controversy about it. Nothing about his role is transgressive or woke in any sense of the word. He played that role adequately, but nothing worth praise. To be honest with you all, I think the only performance worth mentioning is Anne Hathaway as Penelope. The rest are... adequate.

2. Helen of Troy. Hah.

First, I want to say that I have zero problems with her being played by a black actress. This is, most of all, a fantasy tale, and I think that any talk about accuracy is silly. None of this is about history or accuracy in any sense.

I mean, Jesus Christ, Greek warriors wear metal armor ON THEIR BOATS!! How stupid you have to be to choose to do that. They row while wearing 20-30 pounds of metal armor that restricts their movement. They wear the heavy armor even during storms, which can be their death sentence if they fall overboard. It's absurd and absolutely historically inaccurate. Soldiers never wore heavy cuirasses while on the boat, not even during naval battles, let alone when they are in friendly seas. Ridiculous and absolutely unexpected from someone of Nolan's caliber.

Anyway, back to Helen. That character hasn't been done any justice in the movie. No, I don't have a problem with Helen being played by a black, native American, Asian, or Eskimo actress. What I would have loved is for Helen to get much more screen time and an actual characterization. She has like 2-3 minutes of screen time in total.

Her being played by a black actress is absolutely fucking fine - there is no need for historical accuracy in an obvious fantasy tale, but she should have been played by a black star actress, not this unknown actress with mediocre physical beauty at best. And then she should have been given a lot more screen time and proper characterization, a story, an arc, all of it. Way to diminish a character.

Now, I remember reading on the internet that Nolan supposedly based the movie on some feminist version of the Odyssey? Jesus Christ, what a joke.

There is not a trace of feminism in this movie, my dear AH-ers. If there were, Helen would have been a much bigger character. Penelope, most of all, would have been represented as a woman who wisely rules in the absence of her husband, even if all the suitors are making trouble. Instead, Penelope excels only in being a faithful and loving wife. Nothing else. She has as much agency in the movie as all those big-titted milfs most Lit authors write about. Again, too bad. I think that Anne Hathaway was great, despite Nolan fucking up her character.


So, if you haven't seen the movie yet, go and watch it and only THEN talk about this. If you have actually watched the movie, but you defend it in some transgressive woke sense, then I call you an idiot. It's painfully clear that Nolan made those "controversial" choices just to check a few inclusivity boxes. They are absolutely minor and meaningless.

Yet he could have made the story much more feminist; he could have been much bolder in that sense. But he doesn't have it in him. Too bad.

So that wraps up the elephant. Part two incoming about the actual movie. Stay tuned, folks.

 

[crookedletter]

This thread once again proves what I said so many times. It's not possible to talk about certain topics in the AH. The amount of unnecessary mockery and the sheer lack of objectivity, on both sides, even if they are unequally represented here, is truly sad.

Make of that what you want. I have seen the movie, and I am about to write a review of it here, with some minor spoilers. Oh, the irony of what I am going to write, having in mind what 70% of this thread has been...

I actually think, especially given the sensitivity of some of what's being discussed, this thread has been remarkably civil. Sure, there have been some snide comments (some from myself, admittedly), but no one is being pilloried, no names have been called, or not many. It's just... people disagreeing. As they do.

I'm curious why you say it's "not possible" to talk about such things? If you mean it's not possible to talk about certain things and have everyone agree with you, well... sure. But is that really such a problem?

 

[PennyThompson]

Simon was a warrior, and I didn't say greatest.

The issue with Eliot Page isn't one of being a trans actor, it's casting someone 5ft tall weighing 85lbs as one of the greatest warriors in the world. It just doesnt make any practical sense.

I mean, you obviously consumed some fake news about this and got all worked up over it, you are far from the only person who fell for it

For what it's worth, the character of Sinon doesn't actually appear in the text of the Odyssey, he appears in the Aeneid.

And he's never described as a great warrior, or large, or intimidating, or anything of the sort.

He's described thusly:

meanwhile some Dardan shepherds with loud shouts were haling to the king a youth whose hands were bound behind his back. To compass this very end and open Troy to the Achaeans, deliberately, stranger though he was, he had placed himself in their path, confident in spirit and ready for either event, either to ply his crafty wiles or to meet certain death. From all sides, in eagerness to see, the Trojan youth run streaming in and vie in mocking the captive. Hear now the treachery of the Greeks and from a single crime learn the wickedness of all . . . For as he stood amid the gazing crowd, dismayed, unarmed, and cast his eyes about the Phrygian bands, ‘Alas!’ he cried, ‘what land now, what seas can receive me? Or what fate at the last yet awaits my misery? No place at all have I among the Greeks, and the Trojans themselves, too, wildly clamour for vengeance and my life.’

He pretends to have been betrayed by the Greeks and left to die along with the perfectly harmless wooden horse, and then delivers a sad monologue to king Priam. The king believes Sinon, lets him enter Troy, has the horse brought into the city.

Then at night Sinon sneaks off, lights a signal fire, opens the horse, and lets the Greek soldiers out. He's never described as a strong fighter, he's a non-threatening youth who tells a convincing sob story

 

[MillieDynamite]

Yes, I did, because it is mythology, not the fucking real world.

Notice the words coming out of your post (one of the greatest warriors). If that was true, in the context of the story, then the gods favored him. It fits the fiction of the story; follow along! If it's Ancient Greece, and gods there be, then they must have favored him! It works for the story because it's freaking fiction and has a supernatural element.

Simon was a warrior, and I didn't say greatest. And you said the gods were on his side, care to explain?

Yeah, Pesci and Pacino carry themselves that way. Some people are intimidating inspite of their stature... Eliot Page is not.
Not everyone is cut out to play tough guy roles.
As I mentioned in another example, Katie Holmes is a very attractive woman, she's not a good femme fatale. Great in other roles.
Not every actor is cut out to play every part.

 

[MillieDynamite]

@AwkwardlySet, historically they wouldn't have worn actual armor, they'd have been dressed in leather protective gear. It is the Bronze Age, so they'd be hacking with bronze swords.

THE REVIEW

​

First, I am going to give you a rating, since this is the AH after all. We love our ratings more than anything here.

Well, the movie is quite mediocre, which was somewhat surprising to me. Whatever Nolan had, it's clear to me that he doesn't have it anymore. I'll go into details later about arcs, the lack of them, and what I feel is the only true message of this movie.

But first, let's talk about the huge elephant that has been dominating this thread.

There isn't an atom of woke content in this movie.
Absolute fucking zero. And I will expand on it, and as you will see, protest because of it.

1. The trans actor plays a small role and a side character, Sinon. There is zero controversy about it. Nothing about his role is transgressive or woke in any sense of the word. He played that role adequately, but nothing worth praise. To be honest with you all, I think the only performance worth mentioning is Anne Hathaway as Penelope. The rest are... adequate.

2. Helen of Troy. Hah.

First, I want to say that I have zero problems with her being played by a black actress. This is, most of all, a fantasy tale, and I think that any talk about accuracy is silly. None of this is about history or accuracy in any sense.

I mean, Jesus Christ, Greek warriors wear metal armor ON THEIR BOATS!! How stupid you have to be to choose to do that. They row while wearing 20-30 pounds of metal armor that restricts their movement. They wear the heavy armor even during storms, which can be their death sentence if they fall overboard. It's absurd and absolutely historically inaccurate. Soldiers never wore heavy cuirasses while on the boat, not even during naval battles, let alone when they are in friendly seas. Ridiculous and absolutely unexpected from someone of Nolan's caliber.

Anyway, back to Helen. That character hasn't been done any justice in the movie. No, I don't have a problem with Helen being played by a black, native American, Asian, or Eskimo actress. What I would have loved is for Helen to get much more screen time and an actual characterization. She has like 2-3 minutes of screen time in total.

Her being played by a black actress is absolutely fucking fine - there is no need for historical accuracy in an obvious fantasy tale, but she should have been played by a black star actress, not this unknown actress with mediocre physical beauty at best. And then she should have been given a lot more screen time and proper characterization, a story, an arc, all of it. Way to diminish a character.

Now, I remember reading on the internet that Nolan supposedly based the movie on some feminist version of the Odyssey? Jesus Christ, what a joke.

There is not a trace of feminism in this movie, my dear AH-ers. If there were, Helen would have been a much bigger character. Penelope, most of all, would have been represented as a woman who wisely rules in the absence of her husband, even if all the suitors are making trouble. Instead, Penelope excels only in being a faithful and loving wife. Nothing else. She has as much agency in the movie as all those big-titted milfs most Lit authors write about. Again, too bad. I think that Anne Hathaway was great, despite Nolan fucking up her character.


So, if you haven't seen the movie yet, go and watch it and only THEN talk about this. If you have actually watched the movie, but you defend it in some transgressive woke sense, then I call you an idiot. It's painfully clear that Nolan made those "controversial" choices just to check a few inclusivity boxes. They are absolutely minor and meaningless.

Yet he could have made the story much more feminist; he could have been much bolder in that sense. But he doesn't have it in him. Too bad.

So that wraps up the elephant. Part two incoming about the actual movie. Stay tuned, folks.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The Review - Part Two

​

What is The Odyssey about? What's the idea behind the movie?

I've read bits of some theories prior to watching it. Is it anti-war? Is it about love and family and loyalty? Does it make you think about life in the philosophical sense?

Well, none of that. There is only one message that Nolan puts forward: Don't go against the wishes of the gods. Every calamity that happens is because someone disobeyed the gods. Even the prophecy at the end will come true because Zeus' law was broken.

I mean, why not do the opposite? Why couldn't he have made it about men taking their destinies in their own hands, taking agency and trying to decide their own fates? No, he made it literally: "Obey the gods, or else!"

There is nothing else in the movie, nothing. Characters are weak; there are no character arcs.

We don't see Odyssey, fighting tooth and nail against anything just to get home. No, that happens only when he strictly obeys the gods. We don't see Telemachus growing into a man on his own. No, it's daddy who does all of it. And finally, we don't see Penelope growing into a wise and strong queen in the absence of Odysseus. We only see her waiting for her husband. In the sense of love at least, she works well, but the rest sucks.

Some of the cinematography is beautiful, as it often is with Nolan. But the plot is weak. There are several disjointed encounters that Odysseus and his men face on their journey, but no growth for any of them. There is no chemistry between them, no talk of friendship and loyalty. It's like they met 5 minutes before setting sail back home.

Fight scenes are fine in general, although nothing flashy.

I could talk a lot more about it, but I am getting tired.

Watch the movie, see for yourself. It's mediocre and forgettable, and it's a shame. It could have been more in every sense of the word.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

@AwkwardlySet, historically they wouldn't have worn actual armor, they'd have been dressed in leather protective gear. It is the Bronze Age, so they'd be hacking with bronze swords.

Bronze swords, but they wear bronze armor too. That's historically true for hoplites, for land warriors, but not for soldiers on the boats. It's absurd.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I mean, you obviously consumed some fake news about this and got all worked up over it, you are far from the only person who fell for it

For what it's worth, the character of Sinon doesn't actually appear in the text of the Odyssey, he appears in the Aeneid.

And he's never described as a great warrior, or large, or intimidating, or anything of the sort.

He's described thusly:



He pretends to have been betrayed by the Greeks and left to die along with the perfectly harmless wooden horse, and then delivers a sad monologue to king Priam. The king believes Sinon, lets him enter Troy, has the horse brought into the city.

Then at night Sinon sneaks off, lights a signal fire, opens the horse, and lets the Greek soldiers out. He's never described as a strong fighter, he's a non-threatening youth who tells a convincing sob story

Nice try... but there is much more to it than that.
In Quintus Smyrnaeus's account (The Fall of Troy (Loeb Classical Library No. 19)) he was tortured and resolute under that torture. He isn't a "non threatening youth" in the majority of the tales. He's a warrior selected to stay behind to complete the ruse.

"Then tortured they that man of guileful soul long time unceasing. Firm as a rock abode the unquivering limbs, the unconquerable will. His ears, his nose, at last they shore away in every wise tormenting him, until he should declare the truth, whither were gone the Danaans in their ships, what thing the Horse concealed within it. He had armed his mind with resolution, and of outrage foul recked not; his soul endured their cruel stripes, yea, and the bitter torment of the fire; for strong endurance into him Hera breathed; and still he told them the same guileful tale..."


"With unangry words first questioned, then with terrible threatenings. Then tortured they that man of guileful soul long time unceasing. ... His ears, his nose, at last they shore away ... his soul endured their cruel stripes, yea, and the bitter torment of the fire..."




Thanks for trying to reverse your story at the last minute.
Of course with your track record of dishonesty, this really comes as no surprise.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

@AwkwardlySet, historically they wouldn't have worn actual armor, they'd have been dressed in leather protective gear. It is the Bronze Age, so they'd be hacking with bronze swords.

But...but... IT'S MYTHOLOGY! Right?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

But...but... IT'S MYTHOLOGY! Right?

It's not even about accuracy in that sense. It's just common sense not to wear heavy metal armor while on the ship or even while rowing, of all things. There is no nation in history that has done something like that.