The Odyssey

[PennyThompson]

Nice try... but there is much more to it than that.
In Quintus Smyrnaeus's account (The Fall of Troy (Loeb Classical Library No. 19)) he was tortured and resolute under that torture. He isn't a "non threatening youth" in the majority of the tales. He's a warrior selected to stay behind to complete the ruse.

"Then tortured they that man of guileful soul long time unceasing. Firm as a rock abode the unquivering limbs, the unconquerable will. His ears, his nose, at last they shore away in every wise tormenting him, until he should declare the truth, whither were gone the Danaans in their ships, what thing the Horse concealed within it. He had armed his mind with resolution, and of outrage foul recked not; his soul endured their cruel stripes, yea, and the bitter torment of the fire; for strong endurance into him Hera breathed; and still he told them the same guileful tale..."


"With unangry words first questioned, then with terrible threatenings. Then tortured they that man of guileful soul long time unceasing. ... His ears, his nose, at last they shore away ... his soul endured their cruel stripes, yea, and the bitter torment of the fire..."




Thanks for trying to reverse your story at the last minute.
Of course with your track record of dishonesty, this really comes as no surprise.

Okay you're just googling for something to save face, because you mistakenly thought Elliot Page was cast as "one of the greatest warriors in the world," and got mad about it

Quintus' poem was written a thousand years after the Aenied, it's quite literally a fan fiction adaptation, which I find delightful

And it certainly gave Sinon credit as being exceedingly brave and smart, but describes him as "a hapless-seeming man," and... again, does not describe him as large, strong, intimidating, or a powerful warrior.

 

[Voboy]

FWIW, anyone who's ever been in the Army or the Marines (and probably anyone who's ever done martial arts) knows there are oodles of skilled fighters who aren't anywhere near "jacked."

Lots of scrawny men are deadly.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Okay you're just googling for something to save face, because you mistakenly thought Elliot Page was cast as "one of the greatest warriors in the world," and got mad about it

Quintus' poem was written a thousand years after the Aenied, it's quite literally a fan fiction adaptation, which I find delightful

And it certainly gave Sinon credit as being exceedingly brave and smart, but describes him as "a hapless-seeming man," and... again, does not describe him as large, strong, intimidating, or a powerful warrior.

And that largely depends on which translation you are referencing, doesn't it?
Let's not pretend you are quoting the original text.


You project like an Imax....You were all in on great warrior until someone else made a comment, then you changed direction pretty fast, didn't you?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

FWIW, anyone who's ever been in the Army or the Marines (and probably anyone who's ever done martial arts) knows there are oodles of skilled fighters who aren't anywhere near "jacked."

Lots of scrawny men are deadly.

No one said "jacked" but please find a successful MMA fighter with Eliot Page's build.
Heck, even a modern soldier that size would struggle carrying the requisite weight on patrol in Afghanistan.

 

[Voboy]

No one said "jacked" but please find a successful MMA fighter with Eliot Page's build.
Heck, even a modern soldier that size would struggle carrying the requisite weight on patrol in Afghanistan.

Again, anyone who's ever been in the Army or the Marines has known plenty of smaller guys who've hauled their weight and then some.

In every unit I was ever in, the machine gunners were always smaller guys. I have no idea why. They carried plenty of weight for plenty of distance.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Again, anyone who's ever been in the Army or the Marines has known plenty of smaller guys who've hauled their weight and then some.

In every unit I was ever in, the machine gunners were always smaller guys. I have no idea why. They carried plenty of weight for plenty of distance.

Delta and the Seals are full of 5ft 1in 105lbs guys, right?

 

[Voboy]

Delta and the Seals are full of 5ft 1in 105lbs guys, right?

That's not even remotely what I said.

Enjoy your evening.

 

[PennyThompson]

Delta and the Seals are full of 5ft 1in 105lbs guys, right?

Harry Beal, the very first Navy SEAL, was five feet tall

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Harry Beal, the very first Navy SEAL, was five feet tall

First because he signed his name first.


Typically, however, most students are in the average-sized man zone of 68-70 inches and 170-190 pounds.

https://www.military.com/military-f...ight-special-ops-selection-and-bud-s-training


And I know peer reviewed research scares you, but...

https://www.ovid.com/jnls/nsca-jscr...nd-performance?redirectionsource=fulltextview

 

[MillieDynamite]

Yes, that's been my argument since my first post about the story, not the one about the movie's performance.

But...but... IT'S MYTHOLOGY! Right?

I was talking about sailors, but in general, Armor is more of a Roman thing than the Greeks'.

It's not even about accuracy in that sense. It's just common sense not to wear heavy metal armor while on the ship or even while rowing, of all things. There is no nation in history that has done something like that.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

The Review - Part Two

​

What is The Odyssey about? What's the idea behind the movie?

I've read bits of some theories prior to watching it. Is it anti-war? Is it about love and family and loyalty? Does it make you think about life in the philosophical sense?

Well, none of that. There is only one message that Nolan puts forward: Don't go against the wishes of the gods. Every calamity that happens is because someone disobeyed the gods. Even the prophecy at the end will come true because Zeus' law was broken.

I mean, why not do the opposite? Why couldn't he have made it about men taking their destinies in their own hands, taking agency and trying to decide their own fates? No, he made it literally: "Obey the gods, or else!"

There is nothing else in the movie, nothing. Characters are weak; there are no character arcs.

We don't see Odyssey, fighting tooth and nail against anything just to get home. No, that happens only when he strictly obeys the gods. We don't see Telemachus growing into a man on his own. No, it's daddy who does all of it. And finally, we don't see Penelope growing into a wise and strong queen in the absence of Odysseus. We only see her waiting for her husband. In the sense of love at least, she works well, but the rest sucks.

Some of the cinematography is beautiful, as it often is with Nolan. But the plot is weak. There are several disjointed encounters that Odysseus and his men face on their journey, but no growth for any of them. There is no chemistry between them, no talk of friendship and loyalty. It's like they met 5 minutes before setting sail back home.

Fight scenes are fine in general, although nothing flashy.

I could talk a lot more about it, but I am getting tired.

Watch the movie, see for yourself. It's mediocre and forgettable, and it's a shame. It could have been more in every sense of the word.

Thanks for taking the time to share this.

I left the cinema somehow both impressed at the endeavor and also, like you, underwhelmed. I would have expected a little more poetry, a little more abstract majesty - a sense of timelessness, I suppose - but I can only guess they were going for a kind of dumbed down, summer movie, popular appeal. Who knows though.

The business of treating strangers with respect and showing them hospitality - which seems to have riled up the anti-immigration crowd - is both historically accurate and in keeping with the text. To think the film is some ‘woke’ project on that basis is, well, you’d have to be very thin-skinned and deep inside the anti-‘woke’ rabbit hole.

I find Telemachus’s story rather tedious and wished they spent far less time on him and given more to Odysseus’s various travails. And I think they missed a trick leaving out Laertes. It was all oddly emotionless to me. (If you’re a cinephile, you may find yourself comparing it unfavorably to the ending of Sansho The Bailiff - and wishing for even a small portion of the feelings Mizoguchi manages to create).

Horse was good though. Cyclops genuinely unsettling. The endless shores and sunshine when he was with Calypso communicated the scary passage of time well.

 

[UnexpectedLuggage]

I'll likely wait until it hits streaming.

I like Nolan as a director, I like most of the cast, but I can't get over how drab it looks. I know it doesn't need to be 100% historically accurate or anything, but I'm just tired of any movie set in the past being brown, black, and gray at all times. One of the best parts of that era was how crazy and vibrant the armor and shit was.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The business of treating strangers with respect and showing them hospitality - which seems to have riled up the anti-immigration crowd - is both historically accurate and in keeping with the text. To think the film is some ‘woke’ project on that basis is, well, you’d have to be very thin-skinned and deep inside the anti-‘woke’ rabbit hole.

But even that message is part of the message "Don't disobey the gods!"
It has been repeated throughout the movie: Treat strangers well because you never know if one of them is a god in disguise. So the essence isn't even about treating your fellow man right, it's about not accidentally pissing off the gods.

Even at the end, when Odysseus sets sail once again, it happens because the gods told him to do it through the voice of dead Sinon. Ridiculously enough, Odysseus doesn't have all that much agency in the movie, and don't even get me started about Penelope. She waits for her husband for 15-20 years like a dutiful wife, and then when he tells her that they need to go west, she follows him without a word.

Honestly, this movie doesn't deserve a tenth of the attention it got.

 

[TheOneUpright]

But even that message is part of the message "Don't disobey the gods!"
It has been repeated throughout the movie: Treat strangers well because you never know if one of them is a god in disguise. So the essence isn't even about treating your fellow man right, it's about not accidentally pissing off the gods.

Moreover, Hellenic hospitality - a universal, cross-cultural norm - came with a few conveniently overlooked asterisks: hospitality only applied to guests of refined manners and language, meaning nobles. Those of lower status were certainly not well-received, to say nothing of slaves. The Greek economy was built on slavery. They were not nice, certainly not to foreigners. If you didn't speak the language, you were a stranger, hence a barbarian, and immediately a worthy candidate for slavery. The modern tendency to blur cultures and borders, "to be nice to strangers" (to say nothing of unwanted infiltrators), is beyond ridiculous.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

Moreover, Hellenic hospitality - a universal, cross-cultural norm - came with a few conveniently overlooked asterisks: hospitality only applied to guests of refined manners and language, meaning nobles. Those of lower status were certainly not well-received, to say nothing of slaves. The Greek economy was built on slavery. They were not nice, certainly not to foreigners. If you didn't speak the language, you were a stranger, hence a barbarian, and immediately a worthy candidate for slavery. The modern tendency to blur cultures and borders, "to be nice to strangers" (to say nothing of unwanted infiltrators), is beyond ridiculous.

This is, not wrong exactly, but overly general.

For one, the Greeks would not necessarily call other Greeks "barbarian," but they would certainly kill and/or enslave them in one of their frequent wars. See the Peloponnesian War for the most famous example (unless you count Philip and Alexander of Macedon's war of conquest).

For another, Greeks could and did treat foreigners with respect and hospitality. It wasn't guaranteed because humans, but there was (for instance) a regular trade in both ideas and goods between Greece and India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece–Ancient_India_relations).

Yes, of course they were a highly hierarchical and unequal society. All ancient civilizations were, in their own unique ways. The Greeks weren't more or less top-down in privilege than, say, ancient China or Egypt, or for that matter pre-Columbian Exchange Triple Alliance (mostly referred to as the Aztecs in English) of modern Mexico.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Moreover, Hellenic hospitality - a universal, cross-cultural norm - came with a few conveniently overlooked asterisks: hospitality only applied to guests of refined manners and language, meaning nobles. Those of lower status were certainly not well-received, to say nothing of slaves. The Greek economy was built on slavery. They were not nice, certainly not to foreigners. If you didn't speak the language, you were a stranger, hence a barbarian, and immediately a worthy candidate for slavery. The modern tendency to blur cultures and borders, "to be nice to strangers" (to say nothing of unwanted infiltrators), is beyond ridiculous.

The left wing culture warriors conveniently leave that kind of stuff out.
Or how guests were expected to leave... Or how it was perfectly acceptable to kill them for abusing the hospitality...

 

[TheOneUpright]

This is, not wrong exactly, but overly general.

For one, the Greeks would not necessarily call other Greeks "barbarian," but they would certainly kill and/or enslave them in one of their frequent wars. See the Peloponnesian War for the most famous example (unless you count Philip and Alexander of Macedon's war of conquest).

For another, Greeks could and did treat foreigners with respect and hospitality. It wasn't guaranteed because humans, but there was (for instance) a regular trade in both ideas and goods between Greece and India (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece–Ancient_India_relations).

Yes, of course they were a highly hierarchical and unequal society. All ancient civilizations were, in their own unique ways. The Greeks weren't more or less top-down in privilege than, say, ancient China or Egypt, or for that matter pre-Columbian Exchange Triple Alliance (mostly referred to as the Aztecs in English) of modern Mexico.

You missed my main point. I’m not lecturing on history. The Greek economy was a class society built on slave labor and exploitation. Today's hypocritical whitewashing of history - blurring borders, erasing cultures, and demanding we "be nice to strangers" - is pure ideological cover. It serves global capital and cheap labor on one hand, and a Marxist agenda on the other.

Hollywood, theater, publishing, and mainstream media are nothing more than full-time neo-Marxist propaganda machines designed to brainwash the masses.

 

[ElectricBlue]

You missed my main point. I’m not lecturing on history. The Greek economy was a class society built on slave labor and exploitation. Today's hypocritical whitewashing of history - blurring borders, erasing cultures, and demanding we "be nice to strangers" - is pure ideological cover. It serves global capital and cheap labor on one hand, and a Marxist agenda on the other.

Hollywood, theater, publishing, and mainstream media are nothing more than full-time neo-Marxist propaganda machines designed to brainwash the masses.

Please be careful with the political statements. There's a whole separate forum for that.

 

[Voboy]

Honestly, this movie doesn't deserve a tenth of the attention it got.

Are you dissatisfied with it because of what it is?

Or because you wish it had been something else?

I'm going to see it today, with an open mind. I expect an intriguing story, nothing more, and it's Nolan so I know it'll make me think. What that story is going to be about? I have an open mind there. I don't particularly need it to preach anything at all. So I'll see what I think it's trying to say.

 

[sirhugs]

You missed my main point. I’m not lecturing on history. The Greek economy was a class society built on slave labor and exploitation. Today's hypocritical whitewashing of history - blurring borders, erasing cultures, and demanding we "be nice to strangers" - is pure ideological cover. It serves global capital and cheap labor on one hand, and a Marxist agenda on the other.

Hollywood, theater, publishing, and mainstream media are nothing more than full-time neo-Marxist propaganda machines designed to brainwash the masses.

Agree that Hollywood propaganda is a form of brainwashing. Bread and Circuses did not end with the fall of the Roman Empire.
I do question your use of "neo-marxist" label. I'd say it is more of a purely regressive or reactionary Gilded Age capitalism. The billionaire technocrats who run Hollywood would love a pure class society.
But let's not be political.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Are you dissatisfied with it because of what it is?

Or because you wish it had been something else?

Both. I wish the movie were so much more, because it's Nolan. I know how good he can (used to) be.

What it is is a forgettable summer blockbuster. It's a mediocre movie by some objective standards, with visuals and cinematography being good most of the time, but the story and characters being shallow. I never finished Tenet, the confusing mess that it was, so I won't compare The Odyssey to it, but compared to the rest of Nolan's movies, it is the worst movie he has ever made, in my opinion.

 

[SimonDoom]

I never finished Tenet, the confusing mess that it was, so I won't compare The Odyssey to it, but compared to the rest of Nolan's movies, it is the worst movie he has ever made, in my opinion.

I also think Tenet was a confusing mess, but I'm glad I finished it, because it has a clever ending that makes some sense of what has come before.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

You missed my main point. I’m not lecturing on history. The Greek economy was a class society built on slave labor and exploitation. Today's hypocritical whitewashing of history - blurring borders, erasing cultures, and demanding we "be nice to strangers" - is pure ideological cover. It serves global capital and cheap labor on one hand, and a Marxist agenda on the other.

Hollywood, theater, publishing, and mainstream media are nothing more than full-time neo-Marxist propaganda machines designed to brainwash the masses.

I invoke Poe's Law.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I also think Tenet was a confusing mess, but I'm glad I finished it, because it has a clever ending that makes some sense of what has come before.

He's definitely got a thing about running stories backwards, that's for sure.

I think Tenet is streaming on Stan at the moment. Might give it another go, to figure out what it's all about. Seriously strange movie, but I do think Nolan's self-indulgences get in the way of coherence, too often.

By comparison, Oppenheimer was straightforward, but I guess that story is so strong it tells itself. Intriguing that he mostly used Brit actors in that one, given that it's a movie about a quintessential American thing. He is a Brit though, and I suspect the story needed an outsider's eye.

 

[GuiltyCowboy]

He's definitely got a thing about running stories backwards, that's for sure.

I think Tenet is streaming on Stan at the moment. Might give it another go, to figure out what it's all about. Seriously strange movie, but I do think Nolan's self-indulgences get in the way of coherence, too often.

By comparison, Oppenheimer was straightforward, but I guess that story is so strong it tells itself. Intriguing that he mostly used Brit actors in that one, given that it's a movie about a quintessential American thing. He is a Brit though, and I suspect the story needed an outsider's eye.

There’s a tendency to use Brit actors for Americans in that early 20th century period. I think there’s an assumption that Brits are still a bit ‘proper’ and that that attitude suits the manners and formality of the 1940s etc. That was the thinking in casting Damian Lewis in Band of Brothers at least.