Ukraine Endgame?

[KeithD]

I don't think a U.S. goal is a full Russian military collapse. That would upset the balance in Europe and cause policy problems for every other country. I think that drawing down Russian military capability and stockpiles is as far as a goal goes.

 

[jaF0]

I remember seeing a map some months back that looked like a Chinese wish list. What is now Russia was broken down to a number of individual sections. A very, very much small Russian area, with large eastern sections doled out to China and other Asian countries and the western areas under control of various EU nations.

 

[Sean Renaud]

This is the problem primarily with Conservatives but Americans as a whole. You need to lierally be spoon fed every single bit of data or else it doesn't sink in and even then there is a better than average chance that none of it sticks.

The goal is simple. Russia get the fuck out and return to the borders as they were at the start of this conflict. Though obviously the Ukrainians get a say and if they decided that this or that isn't worth anymore lives I don't see Biden or anybody else pushing them to keep going.

Why does the United States set up labs all over the world? Does anybody have anything resembling data on this? Cus honestly the idea with the least amount of moving parts is that we don't. We invest in something that is already there, maybe even controlling interest.

My sense is this is all due to a compromised President who has been instructed or blackmailed into destroying or weakening the combat power of the US military. There is really no other explanation for Joe Biden's woke policies that are designed to destroy military unit cohesion and morale and CRT teachings that will turn military personnel against each other. There is no other reason for his efforts that have reduced the budget, combat power, and lethality of the US military as he inches us closer to war. I know that sounds harsh but if it isn't true and only a big mistake you'd expect him to make a mistake in our favor from time to time, but as we see his march to our destruction is both methodical and accelerating.

There is no reason to believe Biden is in anyway compromised. The US military isn't weakened and frankly it should be. There is no excuse for keeping our military at its present size other than we can and nobody in the states has the gall to say enough is enough.

Woke policies do not weaken cohesion or morale. They improve them. There is no real CRT, hell I would argue that just like US history there isn't nearly enough CRT.

The US military budget has been reduced? I would love to see the stats on that since its literally never been lowered in my lifetime. They are such a spoiled bunch that growing less than they did last year is counted as shrinking.

Even if we are marching closer to war almost everybody agrees the next one will be missiles and nukes so none of the crap you're bringing up will mean shit.

 

[mayfly13]

wow KeithD and LupusDei.
More, please.

The current narrative "US/Biden are doing it cause altruistic Spidermen who sacrifice their well-being for DEmocracy and the weak"
is insulting

I think THAT's why laypeople are now falling for Russian propaganda:
1. Russian propaganda cells
2. they're fed up with being condescended via this soap opera -type of propaganda, when their quality of living is turning to shit

 

[Sean Renaud]

wow KeithD and LupusDei.
More, please.

The current narrative "US/Biden are doing it cause altruistic Spidermen who sacrifice their well-being for DEmocracy and the weak"
is insulting

I think THAT's why laypeople are now falling for Russian propaganda:
1. Russian propaganda cells
2. they're fed up with being condescended via this soap opera -type of propaganda, when their quality of living is turning to shit

You could have just said Americans are stupid and left it at that you know?

 

[mayfly13]

You could have just said Americans are stupid and left it at that you know?

lol no.
Lately, I've been watching/reading mainly mainstream Eastern/Western European sources, and the standards are shocking.
At least you guys don't act like kiss-assing ==or the opposite - disgruntled= analphabet colonies.

 

[mayfly13]

I mingled with boat-load of Russians, and I can tell you;
---be they Caucasians or Asians--
Russians are the most passionate, altruistic people I've ever met

By contrast, Ukrainians are unsophisticated, peasant-like racist nationaliststs.

Does that condone Putin's genocide?
Of course not.

 

[LupusDei]

Lupus, I am kind of curious about your reasons behind the bolded portion. I do agree pretty much with your opinion on everything else you wrote, and I am curious on if you could expand your logic behind your preferred outcome.

Russia is an empire, dubbed "prison of nations" for a reason. They have exterminated hundreds of indigenous languages and systematically destroy history and identity of minorities that constitute roughly half of population still (actually again, demographics are not on Russian side lately).

Muscovy had been tyrannical threat to its neighbors since it existed. To remove it once and for all, it must be split up in more logical self governing entities. Ideally leaving Moscow alone to die a slow death of starvation.

I dream about much better world without Russia as a (significant) political entity, that's all.

I don't think a U.S. goal is a full Russian military collapse. That would upset the balance in Europe and cause policy problems for every other country. I think that drawing down Russian military capability and stockpiles is as far as a goal goes.

I understand this opinion, but think it dangerous, short sighted and outright wrong, as in fruitless. It simply can't deliver real world workable solutions to the situation that isn't outright terrible and terrifying for a lot of people and world order as whole. Unfortunately, if you wish, there is no other way the war could realistically end any other way than full, unquestionable and irreversible collapse of Russia, eiter militarily or politically or both. Until at least one of the two happens the war will continue, engulfing new and new territories if it could.

They won't back down, they won't say enough and go home, it can't realistically happen, even under almost any other administration in Moscow. And in an off chance it does, the Russian people will see it as betrayal (it likely would be). The only way to expel Russia out of Ukraine is by force, and as is currently set up that can only happen once Russia is unable to fight. Not unwilling, physically unable, destroyed. Catastrophic loss of capability.

Or put it another way, paradoxically as it may seem, if you want to preserve Russia as major power you want to go in with overwhelming force and stop the bleed by beating them up quickly and resoundingly. For sure, such defeat would almost necessarily deliver regime change in Moscow, Russia may even turn more democatic for a while out of necessity to facilitate fast rebuilding, but it would remain the threat you desire for perceived "balance."

Slow, "honest" defeat by Ukrainians "alone" (even if they eventually fully rearm to NATO standards during the war) is likely deadly, poisonous for Russia as it is. It requires seismic changes in their world.

Leaving spoils to Russia is then seemingly a necessity to preserve this conservative "balance" but it is extremely dangerous. First, Russia will be never, it can't be satiated. Especially the current regime, they have no such concept. Any ceasefire, any peace plan, any of that before full defeat would only be seen as operational pause for rebuilding, with intent to continue. Then, there's the possible consequences and wrong lessons learned elsewhere in the world. It's basically return to aggressive imperialism and by extension feudalism all over. I understand conservatives everywhere dream of such, but we as civilization can't afford that.

Contrary to what their propaganda says, the current Russia since the collapse of USSR had been at war constantly, and will be at war, ever expanding if they could, as long this monstrosity continues to exist.

The only end of this war is end of Russia as we know it.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

I'm not American so I can only say what I believe those answers should be. Biden administration's goal is to weaken Russia. He had said that much directly. Supplying Ukraine with weapons and money at a steady but measured rate is the cheapest and efficient way to do just that. Ideally, yes, Russia should eventually be expelled from Ukraine completely, but slower war is more advantageous for American interests than a speedy one.

American success in this conflict is Russia that is punished enough to not be able to threaten neighboring countries for decades if ever and serve as a warning for other potential aggressors, namely, China over Taiwan being forced to think twice before making good on their promises to wage war if Taiwan independence gets formalized.

The weapons are selected to be sent based on most urgent need in U.S. own assessment, keeping eye on costs and other factors, in qualities to keep Ukraine's fight viable and steady, but not necessary to enable quick victory (as that wouldn't drain Russian future capacity enough). Also, there's an ongoing adaptation to really on the ground switching from the initial plan of building and supporting future underground resistance to Ukrainians fighting high intensity war on open, stalled frontlines. Besides, there's a factor of steady escalation to keep Russians from actually doing anything rash on their bluff, weapon quality and value is increased in small steps Russia has no choice but dismiss as unimportant each time. I personally think the caution is excessive, but overall it is still smart strategy. If Ukraine nears collapse, expect to see rapid ramp up of help.

Endgame is Russian military collapse and full defeat on the battlefield, with or without subsequent regime change in Russia itself. I think they would like to avoid disintegration of Russia, although that would be my ideal outcome. Ukraine is a tool in that, what happens to them is secondary, but just out of necessary binary, Russian defeat means Ukrainian victory, with, framed in the right way, brings wealth of other benefits.


I still believe the type of the regime may have something to do with that, naive idealism it might be.


Yes.

Your theory is as good as any, although any strategy has to consider domestic politics. The American public so far has been supportive, largely due to Zelinskey’s leadership, the resolve of the Ukrainian people, and early success. That said, the longer this goes on, the less supportive the public will become. This is especially true as energy prices and food prices stay high. The pain is especially high in European countries and will get worse when winter sets in. Dictators can withstand public resistance as we see in NK and other dictatorships.

 

[KeithD]

Sounds like you're advocating a total chaos in the balance, which won't happen, so it's fine with me for you to think that.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Russia is an empire, dubbed "prison of nations" for a reason. They have exterminated hundreds of indigenous languages and systematically destroy history and identity of minorities that constitute roughly half of population still (actually again, demographics are not on Russian side lately).

Muscovy had been tyrannical threat to its neighbors since it existed. To remove it once and for all, it must be split up in more logical self governing entities. Ideally leaving Moscow alone to die a slow death of starvation.

I dream about much better world without Russia as a (significant) political entity, that's all.

Ok, now I understand the reasons behind your previous statement. I am not sure though if the splitting up would happen ( I am not sure the rest of 1st world nations would even support it TBH), even if the politics changes, and it happens.

 

[butters]

whatever putin's 'endgame' might be, there are Russians speaking out against him: this one, nicknamed 'putin's favourite oligarch' is calling the war against Ukraine wrong and the russian response to sanctions woefully unprepared thereby damaging the economy of his country. This guy is pretty wealthy, of course, making money from tanks and owning

Basic Element, one of Russia's largest industrial groups. Until 2017 he was President of the En+ Group and founder and co-owner of the Russian aluminum producer Rusal.

His personal wealth of $3.8B has fallen to $1.7B in the last year, so that might be something to do with his claiming the reasoning behind russia's actions against Ukraine were 'a huge mistake'

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...cvid=b4c770e6ff1542818b9946b6586abd5e#image=1

 

[Rightguide]

You got the Truth Social propaganda points out beyond the echo chamber.

Congrats! You win conspiracy nut of the week. Enjoy your parking space!

You win the Ignorant Clown Of The Decade Award.

 

[LowFruit]

It's easy to mock Russia for their military performance up to now in Ukraine, but to be fair, a full scale land invasion of a modern city wouldn't be a cake-walk even for the United States and UK what with modern drones and relatively easy to use hand held anti tank/aircraft missile launchers causing absolute havoc.

 

[jaF0]

No, I'm not sure the US could successfully manage a full scale land invasion of Ontario.

 

[jaF0]

Who, me? Putin's puppet? You bectha'!!!!

Donald Trump: I'd have let Putin annex part of Ukraine to end the war​

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/ip3/www.telegraph.co.uk.icoThe Daily Telegraph|9 days ago
Former US president says Russia 'would have never' invaded if he were still in power, but also claims he may have 'made a deal' if necessary Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin during the ...

 

[Rightguide]

You got the Truth Social propaganda points out beyond the echo chamber.

Congrats! You win conspiracy nut of the week. Enjoy your parking space!

So tell us in detail the facts of the Ukrainian order of battle as it exists today. How many men do they have, how many have been killed and wounded, and how many remain in the pipeline as replacements? All we hear about are alleged situation reports from the Ukrainian authorities pointing to vast Russian casualties and losses, no confirmed numbers of their own, however. Meanwhile, the battle maps we see on the news show the lines of battle are pretty much unchanged after a year of effort. I think we're getting a one-sided view of the war there, not something uncommon in wartime. Col. Douglas Macgregor who has many contacts in Europe and Ukraine says:

"UKRAINE is About to be ANNIHILATED"​

So, who do we believe, a President and administration who lies to us every day or a decorated battle-hardened warrior an official of the Army National Training Center called "the best warfighter the Army has got?" I don't know the Colonel personally I only know of him, but I don't think he's working for the Russians.

 

[LLCox]

The US needs to make Russia weak militarily so they can fight China with both hands.

 

[Sean Renaud]

We trust the President whom we have no reason to believe has lied to us about anything major. We can debate what "control of the border" means in real terms because we'll never actually have it.

 

[jomar]

So tell us in detail the facts of the Ukrainian order of battle as it exists today. How many men do they have, how many have been killed and wounded, and how many remain in the pipeline as replacements? All we hear about are alleged situation reports from the Ukrainian authorities pointing to vast Russian casualties and losses, no confirmed numbers of their own, however. Meanwhile, the battle maps we see on the news show the lines of battle are pretty much unchanged after a year of effort. I think we're getting a one-sided view of the war there, not something uncommon in wartime. Col. Douglas Macgregor who has many contacts in Europe and Ukraine says:

"UKRAINE is About to be ANNIHILATED"​

^^^ That has absolutely nothing to do with your conspiracies and compromised president claims that prompted my post to yours.

So, who do we believe, a President and administration who lies to us every day

Who says? Surely not just your alt right sites?

or a decorated battle-hardened warrior an official of the Army National Training Center called "the best warfighter the Army has got?" I don't know the Colonel personally I only know of him, but I don't think he's working for the Russians.

Sure. Military officers don’t have agendas. Well, except for Flynn.

 

[Rightguide]

One thing is for sure (to the benefit of the United States and other NATO countries): Russian military/economic capability is being drained down significantly to where all it will have left for a very long time militarily is bluster. Ukrainians are taking the horrific brunt but even if Russia can occupy all or part of Ukraine, it won't be able to hold it over time.

Doug Macgregor presents some contrary facts to that argument. According to him, the Ukrainians are losing the war. Here is a link to the ISW (Institute For The Study Of War) somewhat alternative report on the present situation in Ukraine with several maps and details:

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-18-2023

 

[Rightguide]

We trust the President whom we have no reason to believe has lied to us about anything major. We can debate what "control of the border" means in real terms because we'll never actually have it.

He lies every day. No President in history has been more full of shit than Joe Biden:

What’s behind the sudden media focus on Biden’s big lies?​

By
Post Editorial Board
November 8, 2022

All of a sudden, even left-leaning media are flagging President Joe Biden’s lies. Those fibs are no more enormous or absurd than before; why did they become “news” just before the midterm elections?

In recent days, CNN’s fact-checker recounted a boatload of Biden’s whoppers, calling them outright “false, misleading or lacking important context.” The New York Times — which has repeatedly gone to bat for the prez — ran not one but two stories flagging his lies.

The Washington Post awarded Biden his first “bottomless Pinocchio” for falsely claiming he’s traveled 17,000 miles with Chinese President Xi Jinping. The prize signals a fabrication that’s repeated at least 20 times and so far from true that it had previously earned at least three WaPo “Pinocchios.”

https://nypost.com/2022/11/08/whats-behind-the-sudden-media-focus-on-bidens-big-lies/

His entire career is full of bullshit stories about his life, gross Plagiarisms, and lies told to the American people from the podium in his role as President.

 

[ll74]

He lies every day. No President in history has been more full of shit than Joe Biden:

What’s behind the sudden media focus on Biden’s big lies?​

By
Post Editorial Board
November 8, 2022

All of a sudden, even left-leaning media are flagging President Joe Biden’s lies. Those fibs are no more enormous or absurd than before; why did they become “news” just before the midterm elections?

In recent days, CNN’s fact-checker recounted a boatload of Biden’s whoppers, calling them outright “false, misleading or lacking important context.” The New York Times — which has repeatedly gone to bat for the prez — ran not one but two stories flagging his lies.

The Washington Post awarded Biden his first “bottomless Pinocchio” for falsely claiming he’s traveled 17,000 miles with Chinese President Xi Jinping. The prize signals a fabrication that’s repeated at least 20 times and so far from true that it had previously earned at least three WaPo “Pinocchios.”

https://nypost.com/2022/11/08/whats-behind-the-sudden-media-focus-on-bidens-big-lies/

His entire career is full of bullshit stories about his life, gross Plagiarisms, and lies told to the American people from the podium in his role as President.

BDS

 

[Sean Renaud]

Like I said anything worth giving a shit about. Trump was way more full of it than Biden who apparently is so clean you have be like "You lied to get more frequent flyer miles!" Holy shit bruh. Its not too late to join the winning team you know.

 

[Rightguide]

Like I said anything worth giving a shit about. Trump was way more full of it than Biden who apparently is so clean you have be like "You lied to get more frequent flyer miles!" Holy shit bruh. Its not too late to join the winning team you know.

Biden isn't fit to walk in Trump's shadow.