What are you telling your children? (Warning: political)

[KenJames]

Re: parent stuff

It's a large question, being a parent. I recommend the experience.

I'm bi, in a long-term relationship with another man. If I'd met a woman, rather than a man, at that time in my life, I'd almost certainly be a parent and I think I'd probably have been a good one.

I agree with you on the political stuff. I guess my original post wasn't as clear as I thought. I hold the entire Bush administration responsible, starting with the not-exactly-elected President.

 

[Edward Teach]

Well, I certainly don't think anybody should be sodomized with a broom handle, if that ever actually happened. However, a body cavity search is something like that, only not so extreme. We should remember, however, that the person being searched would probably do much worse to his captors if he had the chance, and may have already done so.

Damn straight, Box. There's no proof any of that shit happened. All they have is a bunch of photographs we all know can be doctored.

And, hell, if we were captured, those Iraqi dog breath bastards would probably tear our nuts off and make us eat 'em so castrating a few of them with a sharp bayonet is more than justified.

Fucking pansy assed liberals are gonna be the ruin of our great nation yet.

Ed

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: parent stuff

That's pretty much what I was trying to say in an earlier post of mine about why I was not particularly suprised, although I do feel that it is wrong. I don't think any of the big wigs are in the least suprised, but they are doing a good job of posturing and pretending to be 'outraged'- aren't they?

People were sent to kill other people. That's what wars are. You can't just slaughter other people for whom you have respect. Therefore they are indoctrinated beforehand. These are not any longer people, they are told, they are ragheads, Eye-rackies, or whatever. Johnny Reb, gook, slope, Boche, hun, Nip, whatever it happens to be for this particular war. But not human. Once the enemy is not human, you may slaughter him, burn his children, leave land mines or depleted uranium or defoliants or whatnot all over his countryside, rape his daughters and mothers, and torture him if he becomes helpless and in your hands at your mercy. The key thing is to make your warriors cease to believe he is human. Then you get the St. Bartholomew's Day massacres, the Buchenwalds, the My Lais and so on. Every war something like this occurs, and not on an isolated basis either. On our side, all sides, every side. For the very reason described above.

 

[minsue]

Box, this isn't about body cavity searches at all. Attached is a link of a report leaked to the media purported to be from a military investigation of the conditions at the prison. I just went to the White House website & read the transcript of yesterday's press briefing in which McClellan was asked questions referring to the report and while, as usual, he didn't say anything of substance McClellan also made no denial of the veracity of it or any claims that it is a forgery.

Taguba Report on Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

 

[Pure]

Min, I cant get your link to work.

Here's a link to the Taguba report which does:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

 

[minsue]

Min, I cant get your link to work.

Here's a link to the Taguba report which does:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

Sorry about that! It's fixed now.

 

[raphy]

Damn straight, Box. There's no proof any of that shit happened. All they have is a bunch of photographs we all know can be doctored.

And, hell, if we were captured, those Iraqi dog breath bastards would probably tear our nuts off and make us eat 'em so castrating a few of them with a sharp bayonet is more than justified.

Fucking pansy assed liberals are gonna be the ruin of our great nation yet.

Ed

Oh, that's putting out fire with gasoline..

We're not the good guys. No one in a war are the good guys. Atrocities are committed by soldiers of every single nation, all the time. British soldiers torture captured IRA members to discover information about the next cell up.

shereads - I don't mean this to sound offensive or patronizing, but in some way I'm glad you've lost your final illusions about the 'good' of the western nations. Like you, I wouldn't want to live anywhere but here*, but I certainly don't believe that the people who defend my ability to live here do it with harsh language and well-constructed arguments.

* For here read any of the democratic western nations, the US, Canada, western Europe, Australia, etc etc

 

[Pure]

I'm beginning to see that Roy Moore is right; only a candy-ass liberal like Bush would be apologizing over a broomstick violation** and males made to lie in a pile with penis/butt contact (not penetration) in a conflict where the others and co. will cut your throat on video cam, and film your dying.

----
**alleged. The Taguba report, in the list of nasty events, gives this one a 'perhaps.'

 

[Somme]

I'm beginning to see that Roy Moore is right; only a candy-ass liberal like Bush would be apologizing over a broomstick violation and males made to lie in a pile with penis/butt contact (not penetration) in a conflict where the others and co. will cut your throat on video cam, and film your dying.

.........but only if you invade their country first?

 

[Pure]

picky, picky

just answer: would you rather have panties placed over your head or your throat slit?

 

[Somme]

picky, picky

just answer: would you rather have panties placed over your head or your throat slit?

I'll come back to you on this.

 

[Ms_Kat]

First, I have had extensive training and experience in criminal investigations. Trust me, the pictures that we are seeing have nothing to do with interogation or "softening" people. They are simply abuse, if not torture. There is definitely a strong case for abuse of power.

Second, if and when you take pictures and/or video an interogation, you do so in a manner that protects the dignity of the people you are dealing with. NO MATTER WHAT CRIME THEY HAVE COMMITTED!

I have never supported this President's political agenda. I have always believed that the invasion of Iraq was about a personal vendetta. The way in which this has been handled is disgraceful. Every soldier in those pictures should have immediately been sent back to the States to stand for Courts Martial. Their immediate supervisors should be demoted and relieved of their position. The commander of the prison should be relieved and reprimanded. The Secretary of Defense should have immediately denounced it and taken these actions, plus sanctioning every officer between the prison commander and himself. Since he hasn't, the President should do it. This is the guy that swore at his inauguration that personal responsibility would be a hallmark of his administration.

How do you explain it to kids? You can't. It's impossible to make sense of things like that. You have to say, "Sometimes people do horrible things that no one can understand." That's the way I explain my job investigating child abuse.

What I find incredibly insulting is the way so many people have exposed their craven innards to minimize these events. It does not matter what anyone else in the world did. What these soldiers did was wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. It is a violation of the UCMJ, the Geneva Conventions, and civil law. There is no authority that would permit that type of behavior and still lay any claim to the term "civilized".

I do believe that you cannot negotiate your way out of every situation. There are people willing to die for what they believe in. That does not mean that they should be tortured because they didn't get their wish.

Finally, I will say that I did put in my time in the Air National Guard. I have received training in how to handle POW's or simply "detained persons". Every single training I attended emphasized that you had to protect human rights.

I am a patriot and I believe in what this country stands for. Excusing what happened is a de facto attack on our country.

"It is not patriotic to blindly follow the bidding of a President. A patriot will follow the bidding of a President to the exact extent that President upholds the Constitution. When he fails to do so, it is the job of a patriot to oppose him to his face."

Anyone want to guess who said that?



Hugs,


Kat

 

[cantdog]

I believe that some of the evidence shows women soldiers of ours, specifically, pointing at prisoners' genitals and whatnot to help out in the humiliations.

This is already a country of muslims who are pretty sure there's something wrong with the whole idea of women soldiers in the first place.

I haven't seen this brought up anywhere, but doesn't this make it likely that there may now be, or more likely now than ever, targeted responses aimed specifically at our female soldiers?

Front page yesterday of my hometown paper had a photo of five guys, Iraqi fellows who were on their knees by the side of the road with soldiers of ours holding guns to them. They had their hands behind their heads. Routine stop at a checkpoint, but the reason they were singled out for this and taken to be interrogated after the photo was shot is because of a picture they had in their car.

They had a picture of that Shi'a cleric calling for resistance to the occupiers.

Don't these people understand that we're bringing them democracy? Which consists of outlawing people's pictures if the regime in power doesn't like them? A picture in the car.

The entire scene is very sad. I certainly hope Halliburton and the oil fellows make enough money off this to make it worth the price. I'd hate to think we lost all this blood and treasure and they didn't get stinking rich despite all we've done.

 

[Pure]

Can't forbear.

pure: the others and co. will cut your throat on video cam, and film your dying.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.Somme: "........but only if you invade their country first?"

It's worth saying, as you probably know, that al qaeda and other islamist groups operate under a rather extended definition of 'invasion.' In early statements of Osama, the presence of US troups in Saudi Arabia, was a prime grievance, as a kind of invasion. Such presence was at the permission of the SA govt (wholly owned subsidiary of Halliburton, big deal).

The USS Cole was in a harbor in Yemen, at the permission of its govt.

Further the groups state their desire to recapture all lands once Islamic, making Spain an illegal occupier of an Arab area. Yet further, most existing middle east governments are viewed as illegitimate, making culpable and criminal all western countries that support them.

So you can see that the list of grievances (alleged illegitimate actions and actors) used to justify killing *anyone linked in any way*-- e.g., from Perl the reporter, to the stock brokers and cafeteria workers in the WTC--is rather large.

J.

 

[Edward Teach]

Oh, that's putting out fire with gasoline..

We're not the good guys. No one in a war are the good guys. Atrocities are committed by soldiers of every single nation, all the time. British soldiers torture captured IRA members to discover information about the next cell up.

shereads - I don't mean this to sound offensive or patronizing, but in some way I'm glad you've lost your final illusions about the 'good' of the western nations. Like you, I wouldn't want to live anywhere but here*, but I certainly don't believe that the people who defend my ability to live here do it with harsh language and well-constructed arguments.

* For here read any of the democratic western nations, the US, Canada, western Europe, Australia, etc etc

The point is that of course there are abuses in war and certainly the administration and Pentagon knew that.

Abuse and war crimes have to be prevented and controlled from the top. A military prison should be the most controlled environment in the whole theater staffed with thoroughly trained, indoctrinated and supervised MP’s.

Extra precautions should have been taken to prevent this type of behavior. That it was allowed to happen in a prison illustrates just how inept this group is. There was a break down in the chain of command. They rushed to war without enough troops, with a poor plan and with the arrogance that they could quiet or disregard their critics. That arrogance has carried through down the chain of command.

This is being touted as a war of liberation in an Islamic country to deter terrorism.

This type behavior defeats the cause and places our troops at greater risk.

It encourages terrorism.

This is a just one small demonstration of how poor and arrogant our leadership is.

Ed

 

[shereads]

shereads - I don't mean this to sound offensive or patronizing, but in some way I'm glad you've lost your final illusions about the 'good' of the western nations. Like you, I wouldn't want to live anywhere but here*, but I certainly don't believe that the people who defend my ability to live here do it with harsh language and well-constructed arguments.

Yes, freedom requires sacrifice etc. Unfortunately, we're not in Iraq to protect my freedom or yours.

I suppose I expected more of us this time, raphy, because the one and only reason for the invasion of Iraq that can't be disputed is that Saddam Hussein tortured people in that prison. We were there to put a stop to his barbarism.

The irony is too much.

As for how freedom is defended, that's what the Geneva Convention is about.

Torture as a means of obtaining information can't be all that effective, anyway. If someone's causing you enough fear or pain, you're going to blurt out something - anything - to make them stop. For every accurate lead, there are bound to be a lot of false leads that somebody has to waste time or even risk his life checking out - like the WMD lies. Meanwhile, we defeat our own alleged purpose. Barbarism rules, in the very house of horrors where Saddam was at his worst.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Torture as a means of obtaining information can't be all that effective, anyway. If someone's causing you enough fear or pain, you're going to blurt out something - anything - to make them stop. For every accurate lead, there are bound to be a lot of false leads that somebody has to waste time or even risk his life checking out - like the WMD lies. Meanwhile, we defeat our own alleged purpose. Barbarism rules, in the very house of horrors where Saddam was at his worst.

I read an article about the ethics and practice of torture in the gathering of information a while ago, but I can’t remember the magazine. There are some tricky ethical issues. For instance, Israel allows “physcially coercive interrogation” if there is a dire impeding threat and the information sought can save lives; for instance, if someone has planted a bomb and won’t tell where it is.

The problem is, most experts say that the information exacted under torture isn’t very reliable. Torture victims will say anything and everything.

But you notice that few of the photos of the Abu Ghraib tortures involved physical pain. They concentrated on humiliation and mental stress, which is more subtle and more effective in breaking a prisoner’s resistance. It also leaves no marks.

The humiliations visited on the Iraqi prisoners are about the very worst things you can do to an Arab; worse than physical torture in many ways. They have a violent prohibition about nudity or overt sexuality, and making them strip and touch one another naked is a lot more horrible for them than it seems to us. Liken it to making a westerner get down on his kneses and eat shit. It’s about in that league for them, and apparently their torturers used it just for that reason: they knew that the victims would be too humiliated to even mention what had been done to them.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

picky, picky

just answer: would you rather have panties placed over your head or your throat slit?

There may have been some of both, Pure. The investigation includes some homicides, and presumably those people didn't die of embarrassment.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I've just read the article about Pfc. Lynndie English being charged in the Iraqi abuse case.
She is facing 4 allegations.
She is accused of "assaulting Iraqi detainees on multiple occasions;" conspiring with another soldier, Spc. Charles Graner, to mistreat the prisoners; committing an indecent act; and committing acts "that were prejudicial to good order and discipline and were of nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces through her mistreatment of Iraqi detainees."

The thing that I find appalling is the picture of her standing there smiling and pointing at the naked Iraqi.
Was she planning on showing these pictures to her kids some day?
I guess that main thing going through my small mind at this time is Wtf? Granted, they may not have had the proper training as far as how to be military police, but for Christ's sake they are old enough to have freakin common sense. It's like a frat party gone out of control. It's embarrassing to all the soldiers that didn't act like complete jackasses. It's embarassing to American's in general. Are we supposed to be proud of these clowns?
While their commrades were getting ambushed, these idiots were getting off on their own stupidity.

It's just my opinion. I just needed to express it and see if anyone thinks this is as insane as I do?

thanks, ~A~

 

[destinie21]

I've just read the article about Pfc. Lynndie English being charged in the Iraqi abuse case.
She is facing 4 allegations.
She is accused of "assaulting Iraqi detainees on multiple occasions;" conspiring with another soldier, Spc. Charles Graner, to mistreat the prisoners; committing an indecent act; and committing acts "that were prejudicial to good order and discipline and were of nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces through her mistreatment of Iraqi detainees."

The thing that I find appalling is the picture of her standing there smiling and pointing at the naked Iraqi.
Was she planning on showing these pictures to her kids some day?
I guess that main thing going through my small mind at this time is Wtf? Granted, they may not have had the proper training as far as how to be military police, but for Christ's sake they are old enough to have freakin common sense. It's like a frat party gone out of control. It's embarrassing to all the soldiers that didn't act like complete jackasses. It's embarassing to American's in general. Are we supposed to be proud of these clowns?
While their commrades were getting ambushed, these idiots were getting off on their own stupidity.

It's just my opinion. I just needed to express it and see if anyone thinks this is as insane as I do?

thanks, ~A~

I agree with you in almost all points but I do wish people would stop comparing what happened to a frat hazing. This wasn't fun and games or whatever a hazing entails this was abuse and there were deaths (homicides?). The most sickening part is the fun the soilders seem to be having. Ok if you tell me a higher up gave them the orders and they couldn't refuse sure I'll buy that but I'm all out of benifit of the doubt when I see these people fucking smiling for the camera and having a grand old time.

 

[shereads]

It's hard to think someone is "just following orders" or reacting to the severe stress of working in a prison, when some of them are evidently enjoying themsevles so much.

I feel sorry for her family.

Edited to add:

It's one hell of a sad way to put to rest the argument that women are too compassionate to fight a war.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

When a general tells the MP's to 'soften the prisoners up", what exactly does that mean?

I know her mom saw the picture and recognized her daughter, so yes, you do have to feel for her family.

It's just all wrong no matter how you see this war, it's just all wrong.

~A~

 

[amicus]

Some most illuminating comments on the previous pages of this thread. The usual from some, but from others some real analytical thinking.

I found myself unable to stop watching the final hours of Secretary Rumsfeld's appearance this afternoon and early evening.

I will not sumarize, but I propose that one of the finest defenses and explanations of how a 'free society' conducts its business was expressed by the Secretary, in excellent fashion.

The flagrant partisan attacks were an embarassment to all, not excluding McCain, who should have known better.

As with the Space program, America's good and bad, is openly displayed, for all to see and judge. As with the Shuttle disasters, the abuse and or torture, the problems will be dealt with, openly.

America, the military, will recover from this and be better for it. The mission in Iraq will go on and be successful, inasmuch as it can be in terms of installing a pluralistic, representative form of government in that country.

Bush will be re-elected and Rumsfeld will remain, Iraq will fade in the news as the country begins to savor freedom. The entire Middle East will cool off for a few years as a new balance is sought in world affairs.

I thought perhaps a positive note might be apropo.

regards...amicus

(What nationality is Kerry's wife? It seems she has an accent even worse than a New England twang.)

 

[Edward Teach]

[B(What nationality is Kerry's wife? It seems she has an accent even worse than a New England twang.) [/B]

Don't know. Is she from Oregon?

Ed

 

[amicus]

No, Mr. Teach, she is not from Oregon. We speak American there, outside the Californicated Willamette Valley. Thank you.