What is feminism?

[Netzach]

So I'm a liar?
It's good I met you who could tell me that I am in fact a rapist and to blame. I wouldn't have known otherwise...




I didn't ask any woman to make me comfortable.
I did in the past and will do soon. In bed with the woman who will ask me to make her comfortable, too.
But otherwise I have somebody better suited to make me feel comfortable. And this one is always near, when I want to feel comfortable.
I call the guy 'me'. Know him? Cool dude...

I'm sorry for getting caustic, but reading your replies I cannot see the 'we want equal rights for women' thing. All I see is the 'this fucking basterds will get what they deserve now' thing.

You blame men for the whole problem. And you accept accusing the 'innocent' ones along with the guilty ones.
Do you really think that will solve the problem?
Then get a gun and 'solve' as many of the parts of the problem as you can...

Defensive much?

I never said you're a rapist and abuser. I'm saying it's absurd to think you have to be a rapist and abuser to be sexist or part of the problem. I'm saying your refusal to consider that someone can be a fairly cool guy and still have some work to do is questionable.

OK, men are not the whole problem. Who is the rest of it? Women? Women whose idea it was at some point to be treated like shit? Androgynes? Aliens?

What exactly am I proposing that men "get" other than maybe not being put first and foremost? Am I advocating getting a gun, or just that women worry about their own best interests?

You equate being ignored with being gunned down? Isn't that a little neurotic?

 

[Netzach]

OMG....really?!

I think if we can air drop in younger guys, say 15-16, beer, meth, and trucks, it would be OVER man. Over.

 

[JMohegan]

I got a lot of Princeton applications in the mail and I laughed and laughed. Brown, MAYbe. Princeton? Ha. I agree it's the most old-skool of the Ivies. Was Feldman a grad? I can't see why else he'd pat them on the ass?

No, Feldman's Harvard.

 

[Netzach]

No, Feldman's Harvard.

Now *that* clinches it, and I'm laughing too.

 

[where]

I am very aggressive in an athletic context.

I do not have a 'warrior spirit.'

For one thing, I would never fly over to Iraq and start shooting people, just because George Bush tells me to. Nor would I start pushing buttons to guide drones to drop bombs on Afghan targets in civilian locations per an Obama directive.

I refuse to subjugate my own judgment on right & wrong in life & death issues, even if my refusal to do so would get me locked up. For that reason alone, I would suck as a warrior. I think too much.

If we get you young, then we bend you to our will!

obviously not the whole story. I have an israeli friend who just had to leave there because the constant tension drove her to distraction.

Defensive much?

I never said you're a rapist and abuser. I'm saying it's absurd to think you have to be a rapist and abuser to be sexist.

I think he possibly misunderstood you, not being a native english speaker.

OK, men are not the whole problem. Who is the rest of it? Women? Women whose idea it was at some point to be treated like shit?

The irony of this in the context of a BDSM board, where lots of women actually choose to be treated in ways that most people would consider shit, is just to delicious to pass up.

 

[satindesire]

I think if we can air drop in younger guys, say 15-16, beer, meth, and trucks, it would be OVER man. Over.

Beer, Meth and Trucks.

"A 15 year old American boy gunning down a terrorist isn't normal...but on Meth it is..."

The irony of this in the context of a BDSM board, where lots of women actually choose to be treated in ways that most people would consider shit, is just to delicious to pass up.

Oooh, Irony win! I award you with plus one internets!

 

[Kojote]

no, rape and gender discrimination aren't the whole problem, they are symptoms of the underlying cause which is an andro-centric society and the tokenistic anti-discrimination laws are merely sticking plasters. The people who have no money are disadvantaged. The most powerful group on the planet as a whole are white, western men and as a group they do their best to keep hold of that power.

I agree with that. And I also agree that most individuals causing the problem are white, western males.
I once thought that women would do better. But then I learned about Alice Schwarzer (kind of german Kate Millet) and had to ask me where my place would be when she would have to decide.
And to be honest I don't want to be working in Siberia...

because we are talking about SOCIETY! it's a big picture. no, you individually are not to blame if a woman gets raped, but if you, as a man support the status quo of your legal system, then in a way you are responsible if men continue to get off legally.

Here you are right. Again.
That is developing into a habit. Stop that…

I try to not support the legal system. I try to act in a way I see fit to set an example. And I try to influence people around me.
Actually I even support the principles of small ‘f’ feminism in discussions. And since a lot of people come to me to talk out their relationship problems I get plenty of opportunity to do so.
But I also oppose extremists every time I can. In fact it is part of opposing the system and setting an example.
And guess what: Most arguments about feminism or related issues tend to bring out an extremist trait in some attending women.

I don’t like fundamentalism. And this subject often shows signs of religious or political fundamentalism.
That doesn’t mean that there are no good ideas inside. But they get buried deeper and deeper…

but the history is important! History puts stuff into context and makes it easier for us to see where we are going.

Of course.
But there is a difference between putting stuff into context and accusing somebody for things his ancestors did.
And this is a thin line which gets crossed regularly in this discussion.

I think Netzach nails it right here....

I don’t think so (finally!)
I wrote that feminism, if it goes the way it does, will lead to groups of men directly opposing the concept.
These won’t be the ones who do it already. Not the ones who fear a loss of influence or what.
The people I mean are the ones who get fucked up by getting accused things they didn’t do only because of their gender. The farther it goes the more likely it is to claim innocent victims.
And that will spoil every previous positive achievement…

So to answer it again: I blame feminism to evolve into a fundamentalist-extremist religious thing.

ok, so unlike during the UK draft there is no networking. I have to say you don't exactly make the german draft sound too bad!

It isn’t. But being the one thing which can’t get argued away by feminists I have to stick with that.
Actually even the civilian service isn’t that bad. Some of it is icky but the joints seem to lighten up the burden…

But it is disadvantageous.
A lot of young man can be glad to get vocational education. Staying with the company afterwards is not always likely. And given the situation in germany most employers will not wait for the draft to be over after the education. They will hire somebody else.
This situation got worse with the rising unemployment rate. In the past one made his education, got drafted (for 24 months) and had his job waiting for him to return. But things changed…

and on the whole for every poor mexican/african/chinese/whatever man, there is a woman much more poor and much more oppressed

What is this? A race?
Who’s the ‘more oppressed’?
If it makes you happy I will agree with you that every woman is oppressed and that it is every respective mans fault. And now shut up and get to the kitchen. I’m hungry.
Satisfied?

(As a precaution: Just kidding, okay?)

 

[Kojote]

Defensive much?

You have a knack for triggering my ‘bad manners’.
But don’t worry. I like it.
It’s much more fun than having somebody say ‘yes’ to everything I blurt out…

I never said you're a rapist and abuser. I'm saying it's absurd to think you have to be a rapist and abuser to be sexist or part of the problem. I'm saying your refusal to consider that someone can be a fairly cool guy and still have some work to do is questionable.

I have to agree on this.
*mumble*

OK, men are not the whole problem. Who is the rest of it? Women? Women whose idea it was at some point to be treated like shit? Androgynes? Aliens?

At the risk of surprising you: Yes. Women.
Not all women out there are oppressed and poor. There are one or two which help to worsen the problem.

What exactly am I proposing that men "get" other than maybe not being put first and foremost? Am I advocating getting a gun, or just that women worry about their own best interests?

Took me a while to understand this.
But I think I got it.

It felt like you were not only proposing equal rights.
And I disagree to that ‘men being put first and foremost all of the time’ argument. That doesn’t coincide with my personal experiences.
It happens. Of course. But I also saw it often that women got ‘put first and foremost’. Not only in social situations but in vocational ones, too. And these got paid well also.

You equate being ignored with being gunned down? Isn't that a little neurotic?

I am totally sure that you overact this and delight in the opportunity to turn back this one on me.
And yes. I am neurotic. Or at least people view me that way because these neurotics can’t accept that I am the sole normal guy…

 

[where]

I agree with that. And I also agree that most individuals causing the problem are white, western males.
I once thought that women would do better. But then I learned about Alice Schwarzer (kind of german Kate Millet) and had to ask me where my place would be when she would have to decide.
And to be honest I don't want to be working in Siberia...
I'm going to make a wild guess and say that you possibly haven't read Schwarzer in her entirety. but this is the woman who managed to repeal the law that required german women to ask their husband's permission to work in the 70s, right? Huge swathes of Feminist writing is misrepresented, usually willfully so, by those who feel threatend by it. Then it gets repeated and repeated until it becomes 'true' that all feminists hate men or all men are rapists etc.



Here you are right. Again.
That is developing into a habit. Stop that…

I try to not support the legal system. I try to act in a way I see fit to set an example. And I try to influence people around me.
Actually I even support the principles of small ‘f’ feminism in discussions. And since a lot of people come to me to talk out their relationship problems I get plenty of opportunity to do so.
But I also oppose extremists every time I can. In fact it is part of opposing the system and setting an example.
And guess what: Most arguments about feminism or related issues tend to bring out an extremist trait in some attending women.

I don’t like fundamentalism. And this subject often shows signs of religious or political fundamentalism.

it only seems extreme or like it's fundamentalist to you because you are the one who is part of the hegemony! as an aside doens't Swarzer oppose religious fundamentalism?
That doesn’t mean that there are no good ideas inside. But they get buried deeper and deeper…




Of course.
But there is a difference between putting stuff into context and accusing somebody for things his ancestors did.
And this is a thin line which gets crossed regularly in this discussion.

dude, no one is accusing you, but you can't ignore 2000 years plus of social pressure


I don’t think so (finally!)
I wrote that feminism, if it goes the way it does, will lead to groups of men directly opposing the concept.
These won’t be the ones who do it already. Not the ones who fear a loss of influence or what.
The people I mean are the ones who get fucked up by getting accused things they didn’t do only because of their gender. The farther it goes the more likely it is to claim innocent victims.
And that will spoil every previous positive achievement…

but men have been opposing feminism every step of the way from mary woostoncraft onwards. Nothing has changed. there has never been a point when men have said that women need more rights, more equality. The number of men accused of false rape claims is waaaay lower than conviction rates for real rapes. plus it is only in the west that this is an issue. Women and indeed children including boys, are systematically raped as a matter of course all over the world.

So to answer it again: I blame feminism to evolve into a fundamentalist-extremist religious thing.



It isn’t. But being the one thing which can’t get argued away by feminists I have to stick with that.
Actually even the civilian service isn’t that bad. Some of it is icky but the joints seem to lighten up the burden…

But it is disadvantageous.
A lot of young man can be glad to get vocational education. Staying with the company afterwards is not always likely. And given the situation in germany most employers will not wait for the draft to be over after the education. They will hire somebody else.
This situation got worse with the rising unemployment rate. In the past one made his education, got drafted (for 24 months) and had his job waiting for him to return. But things changed…

so you are saying that german women earn more than men and are much higher up the ladder in terms of management structure? really? you have evidence to back this up?



What is this? A race?
Who’s the ‘more oppressed’?
If it makes you happy I will agree with you that every woman is oppressed and that it is every respective mans fault. And now shut up and get to the kitchen. I’m hungry.
Satisfied?

(As a precaution: Just kidding, okay?)

not every woman is oppressed but to ignore the widespread oppression and inequality women globally face just because it doens't affect you personally is a bit silly.

and seriously, you want me to cook? better wash up last night's pots first

 

[Kojote]

I think he possibly misunderstood you, not being a native english speaker.

Ey!
I’m not stupid and pretty much better in understanding than in expressing. (Apart from that Netzach is a little hard to understand for me. Is that some kind of virtual accent?)
But I am not above a little overacting myself.
Consider it an exaggeration…

The irony of this in the context of a BDSM board, where lots of women actually choose to be treated in ways that most people would consider shit, is just to delicious to pass up.

I had this in mind a couple of times but I deemed mentioning it inappropriate in a discussion about feminism.
Better to wait for a woman to say it.
(I will not call this a privilege now. At least not loud… )

 

[satindesire]

Yes, feminism does sometimes 'get taken too far' but that's everything these days.

We CANNOT exclude feminism as relative because of a crazy minority.

Not all feminists hate men. Not all Christians hate gays. Not all Muslims are suicide bombers.

The fact of the matter is, that crazy minority win out when the group is excluded as relative. Can we really allow this to happen, in good social conscious?

 

[Kojote]

I'm going to make a wild guess and say that you possibly haven't read Schwarzer in her entirety. but this is the woman who managed to repeal the law that required german women to ask their husband's permission to work in the 70s, right? Huge swathes of Feminist writing is misrepresented, usually willfully so, by those who feel threatend by it. Then it gets repeated and repeated until it becomes 'true' that all feminists hate men or all men are rapists etc.

Uh… I actually had the ‘luck’ to meet her. If she once didn’t hate men she corrected this misbehavior since then.
But I haven’t read her writings. Right.
That she reached some important victories shall not be denied.
I didn’t challenge the historic impact or importance of feminism. Even of the more aggressive forms.

it only seems extreme or like it's fundamentalist to you because you are the one who is part of the hegemony! as an aside doens't Swarzer oppose religious fundamentalism?

It seems extreme to me because of the big target on my chest…
And I discount the last one. Palestinian terrorist also oppose Israeli fundamentalism. That doesn’t stop them triggering…
(Maybe a little extreme as an example, but I couldn’t come up with another one yet. This discussion keeps me occupied and is as demanding for my brain as it is interesting. Be patient, please…)

dude, no one is accusing you, but you can't ignore 2000 years plus of social pressure

At least you tell me so. At some points I did feel being accused.
I don’t want to ignore any history of that. But…
I have to dig out the other example…:
Being german you grow up with a feeling of guilt that is as profound as the catholic church wishes the feeling of guilt regarding the original sin to be.
Thirty years ago at primary school I learned that I, being german, am guilty for the things my grandfathers did. And that it is right to feel guilty with this.
It took me not as long as others to figure out that this was bullshit. But it took years to overcome the impulse of feeling guilty and try to view the matter from a different angle. And some people of my age didn’t even manage not to feel guilty to start with.
There is no need to tell me that the holocaust should be remembered as reminder for how far humans may go. I know it. I even would not ignore it if there would be nobody reminding me of it every now and then.

But I don’t have to feel guilty about it. I didn’t do it.
There is no need to blush when I meet a Frenchman and to apologize for invading his homeland. No need to bow to a Pole for starting a war against his country. And even no need to beg the pardon of a Jew personally.

I feel I can – on the other hand – be proud of what Germany achieved and developed into in the aftermath.

But there are people who like to use the faults of my grandfathers to insult me, if they see fit.
They use it because they know it works more often than not with germans.
If you grow up this way you may develop a profound dislike for judgment by history. I did.

That’s why I almost hate it to hear this kind of argument.
‘Women got oppressed in the medieval’ feels like ‘your grandfather killed Jews’.
Gives me the creeps…

I can’t get used to it. I always want to answer something like ‘your grand-grandfather killed native Americans and robbed their land’ (in case of Americans who seldom come up with this shit).

I want to stick with the present and admit that the past shows how worse things can get and how we should not do it.
And I do think I am not totally wrong with it. I don’t know anybody personally who would argue that women should not be allowed to vote. (At least nobody is silly enough to say that directly near me.)
Same with beating a woman (in a non consensual way).

I think at least a couple of us (men) left some things behind and learned. I actually think a majority did over here in the European part of the first world.

I hope that helps to explain some reactions. Took me some time to think it through, because normally I argue about the feminism issue with germans and you cannot bring up the whole 3rd Reich thing with germans. Gives them the creeps…
Therefore I didn’t relate my reactions directly to this issue before.

Sorry for this. Had to explain it to myself as much as to you…

but men have been opposing feminism every step of the way from mary woostoncraft onwards. Nothing has changed. there has never been a point when men have said that women need more rights, more equality. The number of men accused of false rape claims is waaaay lower than conviction rates for real rapes. plus it is only in the west that this is an issue. Women and indeed children including boys, are systematically raped as a matter of course all over the world.

Can’t deny that. Except for one point.
Something has changed. I observe it in younger friends I know through my business.
There is a revived sense of modern chivalry in some of this guys combined with a profound respect for humans in general and women in particular.
I don’t know if part of the origin of this is lying in the subculture they are into. But it is undeniably there.

These guys have a strong sense of justice in them.
This kind of achievement gets spoiled by conclusions lie ‘Nothing has changed’.
And given enough time the way discussions about feminism and the aggressiveness not only shown by some people here may even spoil their attitude.
It can be very disenchanting. And if you hear the ‘you are part of the bad system’ argument often enough you may as well decide that it doesn’t make a difference to do what you already get accused to.
At least it’s this what I am a little afraid of…

so you are saying that german women earn more than men and are much higher up the ladder in terms of management structure? really? you have evidence to back this up?

Some. Even a couple of.
I can’t say the problem of unequal pay isn’t present in Germany. But there are lots of companies without any difference in pay and without a perceived difference in gender distribution in the management.
From my point of view outside the company that is. The decisions made about promotion don’t get published…

And that has changed since I was young. Especially the more recent trades (branches?) like call centers seem to be pretty equalized over here.

Evidence…?
No. Just personal perceptions…

not every woman is oppressed but to ignore the widespread oppression and inequality women globally face just because it doens't affect you personally is a bit silly.

I do not ignore it. I had my share of occasions to view it live.
But for me fighting general oppression and women’s oppression disconnected seems to weaken the effort.

and seriously, you want me to cook? better wash up last night's pots first

Maybe some rest to scratch out in there?
I’m pretty hungry and – being male – genetically incompatible with any kitchen equipment as you should now… honey…

 

[Tabea]

Wanna talk about privileges? Fine.
In Germany we have a military draft. Every male has to subject to medical examination and must serve for 10 months (or maybe 9. In my time it where 12) if healthy.

As Kybele already mentioned it has changed to six months. Also only between 30-40% of men get drafted (the rest is dismissed for health reasons as the military has no use for so many people). The time men serve counts as waiting time for a place at university.

It is still very difficult here to find daycare for children under 3 years. Therefore many women stop working for that time. Women have a much tougher time to find jobs because the employers are afraid they might become pregnant and stop to work for 3 years. Those are much more serious career disadvantages than serving for 6 months.

Not being overly into law things I can only guess (and ask the german part of the net for specific questions) but freedom of speech is not that sacred over here. At least as I view it.

That is not true at all. Freedom of speech is a fundamental constitutional right in Germany.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#GGengl_000P5 (article 5)

It is a crime to deny the Holocaust. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It is important to stop Neo-Nazis.

Due to our history freedom of speech is so important. After all the Nazis oppressed opposing opinions. In a democracy it has to be possible for the people to critize the government without fear of reprisal.

Freedom of speech always has to have limits. Libel and slander are crimes in the USA, right?


Women and men also have the constitutional right to be treated equally in Germany(article 3).

On the topic of what Americans view as sacred - the right to litigate is right up there! European business people are sometimes perplexed by the way lawsuits go here.

You can litigate here as well. We do not have punitive damages, though. And the judges seem to expect more common sense from consumers.

 

[Seurat]

*gets popcorn*

 

[Tabea]

so you are saying that german women earn more than men and are much higher up the ladder in terms of management structure? really? you have evidence to back this up?

Acccording to the federal statistical office German women earn 23% less than men.

http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/por...05/PD10__191__621,templateId=renderPrint.psml

They are also still underrepresented in higher positions.

 

[Kojote]

Acccording to the federal statistical office German women earn 23% less than men.

http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/por...05/PD10__191__621,templateId=renderPrint.psml

They are also still underrepresented in higher positions.

Maybe you should translate an interesting fact of this issue, too.
The 'gender pay gap' shows significant differences between our old West German states and the newly-formed German states. 24% gap in the old ones and 6% gap in the new ones.
Therefore I think my perception is not wrong. Newer branches/newer states = newer structures = less inequality in payment.

I like that. It means at least some advancement.

 

[Kojote]

That is not true at all. Freedom of speech is a fundamental constitutional right in Germany.

And what?
Trying to tell me that the government doesn’t try to dodge the law?
Let’s talk about Zensursula for instance…

Mentioning freedom of speech as sacred appeared to me to put a special accentuation on it.
Not only due to the law but also from the people.
In Germany we are used to shut up in some areas. It’s easier to get someone shut up who is already used to it.

The areas are of course the whole 3rd Reich things.
As I mentioned before we don’t talk about that much over here. Out of shame and fear of being accused to be a Neo-Nazi.

There’s an all too true joke:
The only people who regularly accuse Germans to be Nazis are Germans.
Except for some aging people from the Central Consistory of Jews (who actually experienced the Holocaust what makes it understandable) and some Dutchmen after another lost soccer game it is really not untrue…

*gets popcorn*

May I have some?
Kybele isn’t making me some food yet I suspect…

 

[BiBunny]

I think if we can air drop in younger guys, say 15-16, beer, meth, and trucks, it would be OVER man. Over.

My vote is for a handful of rednecks with shotguns, hunting rifles, 4WDs, and several cases of beer. Tell 'em Dale Earnhardt's death was a part of the larger conspiracy, and it's done in 2 days, tops.

 

[Netzach]

My vote is for a handful of rednecks with shotguns, hunting rifles, 4WDs, and several cases of beer. Tell 'em Dale Earnhardt's death was a part of the larger conspiracy, and it's done in 2 days, tops.

Possibly. I dunno. Teenage boys vs. Rednecks vs. female fighter pilots on the rag.

It's like Godzilla vs. Chuck Norris.

 

[Etoile]

Society exists. The system exists. The systematic oppression of women is just that: systematic. Individuals have very little to do with it. This is basic philosophy here.

 

[Tabea]

Maybe you should translate an interesting fact of this issue, too.
The 'gender pay gap' shows significant differences between our old West German states and the newly-formed German states. 24% gap in the old ones and 6% gap in the new ones.
Therefore I think my perception is not wrong. Newer branches/newer states = newer structures = less inequality in payment.

I like that. It means at least some advancement.

In east Germany more women than men are unemployed and thus don't factor in this statistic at all.

The numbers for west Germany don't seem to change much lately. The difference was 22% in the year before.

Women who have only worked for up to 3 years still earn 18.7% less than men who have started work.
http://www.boeckler.de/pdf/p_ta_lohnspiegel_berufsanfaengerinnen.pdf

 

[BiBunny]

Possibly. I dunno. Teenage boys vs. Rednecks vs. female fighter pilots on the rag.

It's like Godzilla vs. Chuck Norris.

Fuck, yes.

 

[YourCaptor]

And what?
Trying to tell me that the government doesn’t try to dodge the law?
Let’s talk about Zensursula for instance…

Mentioning freedom of speech as sacred appeared to me to put a special accentuation on it.
Not only due to the law but also from the people.
In Germany we are used to shut up in some areas. It’s easier to get someone shut up who is already used to it.

The areas are of course the whole 3rd Reich things.
As I mentioned before we don’t talk about that much over here. Out of shame and fear of being accused to be a Neo-Nazi.

There’s an all too true joke:
The only people who regularly accuse Germans to be Nazis are Germans.
Except for some aging people from the Central Consistory of Jews (who actually experienced the Holocaust what makes it understandable) and some Dutchmen after another lost soccer game it is really not untrue…




May I have some?
Kybele isn’t making me some food yet I suspect…

Dude, you're aging yourself. Talk to some young folk, attitudes have changed.

As Kybele already mentioned it has changed to six months. Also only between 30-40% of men get drafted (the rest is dismissed for health reasons as the military has no use for so many people). The time men serve counts as waiting time for a place at university.

It is still very difficult here to find daycare for children under 3 years. Therefore many women stop working for that time. Women have a much tougher time to find jobs because the employers are afraid they might become pregnant and stop to work for 3 years. Those are much more serious career disadvantages than serving for 6 months.




That is not true at all. Freedom of speech is a fundamental constitutional right in Germany.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#GGengl_000P5 (article 5)

It is a crime to deny the Holocaust. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It is important to stop Neo-Nazis.

Due to our history freedom of speech is so important. After all the Nazis oppressed opposing opinions. In a democracy it has to be possible for the people to critize the government without fear of reprisal.

Freedom of speech always has to have limits. Libel and slander are crimes in the USA, right?


Women and men also have the constitutional right to be treated equally in Germany(article 3).



You can litigate here as well. We do not have punitive damages, though. And the judges seem to expect more common sense from consumers.

These are the facts, though I think the ban on nazi shit was lifted relatively recently. I sure as hell don't remember any rallies from when I was little.



On a side note. Personal opinion, I think German women have more power and freedom then American counterparts. German women are seen as competent and get respect, Americans not so much. It's not uncommon to see a German women openly disagree with a man, debate, go over his head where an American woman would be humored, brushed aside, or she wouldn't even do it in the first place cause she knows the outcome.

Oh yea, and sex appeal is also not a requirement for getting "professional" attention in the workplace.

 

[Kojote]

Society exists. The system exists. The systematic oppression of women is just that: systematic. Individuals have very little to do with it. This is basic philosophy here.

Systematic oppression of women like in systematic exploitation of illegal immigrants?
And without much help from individuals?
Who does it then? Machines? Computers?

Come on...
Every crime is commited by an individual and every individual has the option not to commit a crime.
It may be easier to slip into it due to some social circumstances, but it's also easy to end using drugs when your friends do. Even so not everybody with drug using friends ends up addicted.

And finally the system is composed of individuals. Without 'crew' there would not be a system.

 

[Etoile]

Systematic oppression of women like in systematic exploitation of illegal immigrants?
And without much help from individuals?
Who does it then? Machines? Computers?

Come on...
Every crime is commited by an individual and every individual has the option not to commit a crime.
It may be easier to slip into it due to some social circumstances, but it's also easy to end using drugs when your friends do. Even so not everybody with drug using friends ends up addicted.

And finally the system is composed of individuals. Without 'crew' there would not be a system.

This is one of the most basic ideas in philosophy, and I really don't know how to explain it further. If what you're saying is true, then Marx was completely wrong, and as much as I dislike the guy, I don't think he was wrong. Society exists.