What is feminism?

[Tabea]

And what?
Trying to tell me that the government doesn’t try to dodge the law?
Let’s talk about Zensursula for instance…

Mentioning freedom of speech as sacred appeared to me to put a special accentuation on it.
Not only due to the law but also from the people.
In Germany we are used to shut up in some areas. It’s easier to get someone shut up who is already used to it.

The areas are of course the whole 3rd Reich things.
As I mentioned before we don’t talk about that much over here. Out of shame and fear of being accused to be a Neo-Nazi.

There’s an all too true joke:
The only people who regularly accuse Germans to be Nazis are Germans.
Except for some aging people from the Central Consistory of Jews (who actually experienced the Holocaust what makes it understandable) and some Dutchmen after another lost soccer game it is really not untrue…

I assume when you talk about "Zensursula" you refer to the proposed law against child pornography.
Two years ago the German family minister proposed a law to block child pornography sites for internet users. The law never came in to effect.

I can't see anything wrong with attempting to stop child pornography.

You always have to balance constitutional rights with the constitutional rights of others. For example you have the right to do whatever you want, but you still are not allowed to harm others.

In the case of child pornography the rights of the kids should be considered more important than the rights of users of that kind of pornography.

The freedom of speech of the Neonazis conflicts with the right of human dignity (Menschenwürde) (article 1 of the constitution) of the victims of the Nazis and their descendants. Menschenwürde is the most important constitutional right and thus has to be given precedence.

Neonazis are still mostly allowed to have their demonstrations. They can get together, form groups and recruit. They are just not allowed to deny the Holocaust, wear Nazi symbols and encourage violence. That shouldn't be that difficult. The NPD - a very right wing party - still exists. I can't see how Neonazis are oppressed by the state.

Because of the German history the state has a duty to make sure something like that never happens again.

 

[Kojote]

Dude, you're aging yourself. Talk to some young folk, attitudes have changed.

As we could see just recently...
But you're right. Attitudes started changing. Fortunately...
But try to discuss this with people in my age or try to get through with it in the media.
Eva Herman was back in 2007. Not that long ago.

(f.y.i.: Eva Herman is a german television presenter who was stupid enough to mention in a talk show that not everything was bad back in the 3re Reich.
Bad girl. How could she dare?)

 

[Kojote]

This is one of the most basic ideas in philosophy, and I really don't know how to explain it further. If what you're saying is true, then Marx was completely wrong, and as much as I dislike the guy, I don't think he was wrong. Society exists.

I think I know what you mean with it.
But I still cannot see how this exempts any individual from accountability for his actions.

If the people would change, society would, too.
If the people who are discriminationg women refuse to change they are assholes. And therefore to blame...

 

[Tabea]

These are the facts, though I think the ban on nazi shit was lifted relatively recently. I sure as hell don't remember any rallies from when I was little.

As far as I am aware there haven't been any changes. Neonazis were already allowed to demonstrate in the previous decades.
The marches don't happen that often though and there are usually about 10 times as many people demonstrating against them.

I haven't seen such a rally either, they really aren't that common.

 

[JMohegan]

Maybe this is a male/female way of looking at things. Or a philosophical/practical distinction. Theory vs. real world. I don't know.

But I have to agree on the point that there's no such thing as a cognizant being, "society." There is only the collective impact of individuals, interacting with one another.

When people start anthropomorphizing the concept of society, they stop addressing reality as I see it.

 

[Netzach]

Dude, you're aging yourself. Talk to some young folk, attitudes have changed.



These are the facts, though I think the ban on nazi shit was lifted relatively recently. I sure as hell don't remember any rallies from when I was little.



On a side note. Personal opinion, I think German women have more power and freedom then American counterparts. German women are seen as competent and get respect, Americans not so much. It's not uncommon to see a German women openly disagree with a man, debate, go over his head where an American woman would be humored, brushed aside, or she wouldn't even do it in the first place cause she knows the outcome.

Oh yea, and sex appeal is also not a requirement for getting "professional" attention in the workplace.

All you have to do is LOOK at Angela Merkel and the cultural differences are right there. We'd be freaking out over the Nixon on TV lack of photogenics.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe this is a male/female way of looking at things. Or a philosophical/practical distinction. Theory vs. real world. I don't know.

But I have to agree on the point that there's no such thing as a cognizant being, "society." There is only the collective impact of individuals, interacting with one another.

When people start anthropomorphizing the concept of society, they stop addressing reality as I see it.

There are norms and then there are how people deal with those norms, but there's definitely a set of norms out there, I guess this is "society."

 

[Kojote]

I assume when you talk about "Zensursula" you refer to the proposed law against child pornography.
Two years ago the German family minister proposed a law to block child pornography sites for internet users. The law never came in to effect.

I can't see anything wrong with attempting to stop child pornography.

Apart from the proposed law being completely inappropriate to stop anybody from anything but being perfectly able to get a handle to accuse everybody who stumbles into the intended website block there was naothing wrong with it...
Oh wait. That means everything was wrong with it...

You always have to balance constitutional rights with the constitutional rights of others. For example you have the right to do whatever you want, but you still are not allowed to harm others.

In the case of child pornography the rights of the kids should be considered more important than the rights of users of that kind of pornography.

Right so far. Except for the measure being totally ineffective and targeting normal internet users who accidently stumble accross child porn. For the users of it had to be expected knowing the easy to find backdoors...

The freedom of speech of the Neonazis conflicts with the right of human dignity (Menschenwürde) (article 1 of the constitution) of the victims of the Nazis and their descendants. Menschenwürde is the most important constitutional right and thus has to be given precedence.

Neonazis are still mostly allowed to have their demonstrations. They can get together, form groups and recruit. They are just not allowed to deny the Holocaust, wear Nazi symbols and encourage violence. That shouldn't be that difficult. The NPD - a very right wing party - still exists. I can't see how Neonazis are oppressed by the state.

Because of the German history the state has a duty to make sure something like that never happens again.

As I said: The governement (almost every in the world) will try to dodge it's own laws sometimes and for the freedom of speech it may be easier in Germany than in the US because of that:

In Germany we are used to shut up in some areas. It’s easier to get someone shut up who is already used to it.

All about my personal opinion that freedom of speech is not considered really 'sacred' by the german governement or the german people...

 

[Kojote]

As far as I am aware there haven't been any changes. Neonazis were already allowed to demonstrate in the previous decades.
The marches don't happen that often though and there are usually about 10 times as many people demonstrating against them.

I haven't seen such a rally either, they really aren't that common.

I think he means the attitude of the younger people towards the nazi era changes recently.
Not the laws or stuff...

 

[JMohegan]

Being german you grow up with a feeling of guilt that is as profound as the catholic church wishes the feeling of guilt regarding the original sin to be.
Thirty years ago at primary school I learned that I, being german, am guilty for the things my grandfathers did. And that it is right to feel guilty with this.
It took me not as long as others to figure out that this was bullshit. But it took years to overcome the impulse of feeling guilty and try to view the matter from a different angle. And some people of my age didn’t even manage not to feel guilty to start with.
There is no need to tell me that the holocaust should be remembered as reminder for how far humans may go. I know it. I even would not ignore it if there would be nobody reminding me of it every now and then.

But I don’t have to feel guilty about it. I didn’t do it.
There is no need to blush when I meet a Frenchman and to apologize for invading his homeland. No need to bow to a Pole for starting a war against his country. And even no need to beg the pardon of a Jew personally.

I feel I can – on the other hand – be proud of what Germany achieved and developed into in the aftermath.

But there are people who like to use the faults of my grandfathers to insult me, if they see fit.
They use it because they know it works more often than not with germans.
If you grow up this way you may develop a profound dislike for judgment by history. I did.

That’s why I almost hate it to hear this kind of argument.
‘Women got oppressed in the medieval’ feels like ‘your grandfather killed Jews’.
Gives me the creeps.

When feminists talk about thousands of years of patriarchy or whatever, I never assume that they're talking about holding me personally responsible for what went on before I was born. If they are, well, I wouldn't find that creepy. I'd simply find it ridiculous.

What I assume they are referring to is an intangible inheritance of sorts. A set of expectations, attitudes, and notions of entitlement, handed down almost as a birthright. So entrenched that you take it for granted, and never even question the fact that it's there. You perceive it unconsciously, when you watch your elders as a child, and that perception is reinforced when you study the history of the world.

 

[Kojote]

When feminists talk about thousands of years of patriarchy or whatever, I never assume that they're talking about holding me personally responsible for what went on before I was born. If they are, well, I wouldn't find that creepy. I'd simply find it ridiculous.

What I assume they are referring to is an intangible inheritance of sorts. A set of expectations, attitudes, and notions of entitlement, handed down almost as a birthright. So entrenched that you take it for granted, and never even question the fact that it's there. You perceive it unconsciously, when you watch your elders as a child, and that perception is reinforced when you study the history of the world.

I understood that already.
But I can’t get comfortable with the thought.

In my opinion everybody has to take responsibility for her/his actions.
No subterfuge. No one to blame than oneself.
Therefore I don't concede any mitigating circumstances to a rapist, discriminator, chauvinist or even public urinator.
The only exception being the mentally disabled.
Not even drunkenness is a justification for acting inappropriate. Especially in cases not that ludicrous like public urinating...

 

[JMohegan]

I understood that already.
But I can’t get comfortable with the thought.

In my opinion everybody has to take responsibility for her/his actions.
No subterfuge. No one to blame than oneself.
Therefore I don't concede any mitigating circumstances to a rapist, discriminator, chauvinist or even public urinator.
The only exception being the mentally disabled.
Not even drunkenness is a justification for acting inappropriate. Especially in cases not that ludicrous like public urinating...

Of course everyone has to take responsibility for her/his actions. I agree completely.

I also have very little patience for people who point to "society" as a culpable party. To me, that's the ultimate cop-out.

But once you become aware of that intangible inheritance, that embedded, collective set of attitudes and expectations, then you as an individual do have a choice. The choice is to accept the status quo as it is, or take conscious steps to change it. There is a certain culpability in the former option. No, all by itself that does not make one a direct discriminator. But it does make you in some sense complicit.

Let me ask you a question. You mentioned the significant problem of limited child care options for toddlers, and the unjust burden this places on women in German society. So what are you doing about it?

 

[satindesire]

Possibly. I dunno. Teenage boys vs. Rednecks vs. female fighter pilots on the rag.

It's like Godzilla vs. Chuck Norris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WgT9gy4zQA

 

[laceandcogs]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WgT9gy4zQA

I knew there were many good reasons to admire you, satindesire.

 

[satindesire]

I knew there were many good reasons to admire you, satindesire.

Aww, thanks suge! You're such an angel!

 

[Kojote]

Of course everyone has to take responsibility for her/his actions. I agree completely.

I also have very little patience for people who point to "society" as a culpable party. To me, that's the ultimate cop-out.

Here we are. That's an important point for me. One of the most important.

But once you become aware of that intangible inheritance, that embedded, collective set of attitudes and expectations, then you as an individual do have a choice. The choice is to accept the status quo as it is, or take conscious steps to change it. There is a certain culpability in the former option. No, all by itself that does not make one a direct discriminator. But it does make you in some sense complicit.

That does make a sense.
I did not think about it exactly that way, yet. At least not regarding society as a whole.
In general I focused on more specific areas of the big picture to talk about and against with people embedded into.
From the typical bavarian-catholic, politically right-winged pighead (as an extreme example) to the people who just didn’t think about the social leads they followed all their life.
I also tend to emphasize personal responsibility in terms of moral courage. Stepping in when you see something happen that just isn’t right but also taking actions when there’s something going on like a crying Child all day in the apartment building.
General ‘not turn your head away’ stuff. Nothing exceptionally big.

Let me ask you a question. You mentioned the significant problem of limited child care options for toddlers, and the unjust burden this places on women in German society. So what are you doing about it?

Tabea mentioned. I agreed. Just quibbling…
I’m not doing anything about it. Guilty in that way.
I volunteered for some help in need in Africa but couldn’t stand a second term. And I volunteered in the tsunami region of Thailand back in 2005.
Today I only work with some kids. Mostly the written off adolescent type. But nothing really bad for this town isn’t one of the worse places. Little drugs and petty theft, some violence and occasional abusing stuff.
No official or even honorary work. In fact I often disagree with the course of action of our street workers and give advice for different approaches.
Same is true for acting as counselor for friends and acquaintances. Mostly relationship stuff but also some legal advice. I got my share of experiences in some areas.

But to be honest I concentrate on building up my company now. I finally decided that earning some money would be a whole new experience and found something I really like. So I don’t get more than about ten hours a week to spare for the other stuff and most of it is coming right through the door asking for help and I need not seek it out.

So I am not doing as much as I can about the things I realize happening.
But that doesn’t stop me from perceiving it and not from talking about it.
It’s not that I am only sitting on my fat arse and keep talking without doing anything…

 

[satindesire]

There are norms and then there are how people deal with those norms, but there's definitely a set of norms out there, I guess this is "society."

According to my Sociology textbook, Bingo.

 

[JMohegan]

Here we are. That's an important point for me. One of the most important.




That does make a sense.
I did not think about it exactly that way, yet. At least not regarding society as a whole.
In general I focused on more specific areas of the big picture to talk about and against with people embedded into.
From the typical bavarian-catholic, politically right-winged pighead (as an extreme example) to the people who just didn’t think about the social leads they followed all their life.
I also tend to emphasize personal responsibility in terms of moral courage. Stepping in when you see something happen that just isn’t right but also taking actions when there’s something going on like a crying Child all day in the apartment building.
General ‘not turn your head away’ stuff. Nothing exceptionally big.




Tabea mentioned. I agreed. Just quibbling…
I’m not doing anything about it. Guilty in that way.
I volunteered for some help in need in Africa but couldn’t stand a second term. And I volunteered in the tsunami region of Thailand back in 2005.
Today I only work with some kids. Mostly the written off adolescent type. But nothing really bad for this town isn’t one of the worse places. Little drugs and petty theft, some violence and occasional abusing stuff.
No official or even honorary work. In fact I often disagree with the course of action of our street workers and give advice for different approaches.
Same is true for acting as counselor for friends and acquaintances. Mostly relationship stuff but also some legal advice. I got my share of experiences in some areas.

But to be honest I concentrate on building up my company now. I finally decided that earning some money would be a whole new experience and found something I really like. So I don’t get more than about ten hours a week to spare for the other stuff and most of it is coming right through the door asking for help and I need not seek it out.

So I am not doing as much as I can about the things I realize happening.
But that doesn’t stop me from perceiving it and not from talking about it.
It’s not that I am only sitting on my fat arse and keep talking without doing anything…

One of the most firmly entrenched notions, embedded in that intangible inheritance, is the notion that women are responsible for the care of children. Hardly anyone questions the assumption that the mother, rather than the father, should, would, or even could take on that role.

The result, in a patriarchal society, is that child care options are hard to come by. Big companies build fancy dining rooms and on-site gyms, instead of on-site daycare centers. The government sends those young men, opting out of military service, to staff nursing homes rather than child care facilities. Employers in general view fathers who take time off for child rearing as not being serious about their careers. And men in general see male assistance with child care as a form of charitable generosity, rather than fundamental responsibility.

A related result is the fact that the child care role itself is considered lesser in terms of importance, and the skills required to do it well devalued. Women's work. Females seeking traditional male roles frequently disdain it, and it doesn't even appear on the radar screen of most males.

So the first thing you can do to address the shortage of child care options in Germany is to cultivate the notion that child care is the responsibility of parents, regardless of gender. And as you build your company, spend time thinking about creative ways to address the parenting needs of employees - through flexible schedules, shared jobs, or whatever.

 

[satindesire]

I always thought that the idea of giving a man paternal leave to spend time with his new baby was a good idea. Maternal leave is really quite common in pink, white and green collar jobs. The idea of Maternal leave is something that I don't really see anyone complaining about, it seems like a very 'logical' thing to do. But dads should spend time with the baby, too!

When Mister asked for two weeks off after Brooklyn was born, you woulda thought he'd just asked for the Boss's soul. It was ridiculous and at first, he resisted the idea, but Mister said "Give me two weeks or find another IT manager." It was -really- important to him to get to bond with his first baby.

So, he got his two weeks.

 

[JMohegan]

I always thought that the idea of giving a man paternal leave to spend time with his new baby was a good idea. Maternal leave is really quite common in pink, white and green collar jobs. The idea of Maternal leave is something that I don't really see anyone complaining about, it seems like a very 'logical' thing to do. But dads should spend time with the baby, too!

When Mister asked for two weeks off after Brooklyn was born, you woulda thought he'd just asked for the Boss's soul. It was ridiculous and at first, he resisted the idea, but Mister said "Give me two weeks or find another IT manager." It was -really- important to him to get to bond with his first baby.

So, he got his two weeks.

Assuming that Mister's company has at least 50 employees, and that Mister has worked there for at least one year, then he had the legal right to that leave. The Boss had no legal right to refuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_and_Medical_Leave_Act_of_1993

 

[satindesire]

Assuming that Mister's company has at least 50 employees, and that Mister has worked there for at least one year, then he had the legal right to that leave. The Boss had no legal right to refuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_and_Medical_Leave_Act_of_1993

He ha no legal right to refuse?!

OMG. We didn't know that.

Thanks for the head's up.

 

[Netzach]

FMLA leave is always unpaid and that 50 employee thing stands. And they may be punitive about it if you rile them with legal language - if you're a "right to work" state consider yourself fucked.

 

[satindesire]

FMLA leave is always unpaid and that 50 employee thing stands. And they may be punitive about it if you rile them with legal language - if you're a "right to work" state consider yourself fucked.

Oh.

Well, Oklahoma -is- a Right To Work state, since '01.

 

[Netzach]

Oh.

Well, Oklahoma -is- a Right To Work state, since '01.

It just came up in our house under less than ideal circumstances, let's say. Fortunately right to work also means that M can leave any time he wants. The temptation to lift a middle finger walk and say "right to work, biotches!" was strong, lemme tell ya.

The law and what businesses will actually get away with because going to court has high price tags all around, are two different things. This is part of why sexual harassment almost always goes unmentioned and unpunished, even post Clarence Thomas.

 

[satindesire]

It just came up in our house under less than ideal circumstances, let's say. Fortunately right to work also means that M can leave any time he wants. The temptation to lift a middle finger walk and say "right to work, biotches!" was strong, lemme tell ya.

The law and what businesses will actually get away with because going to court has high price tags all around, are two different things. This is part of why sexual harassment almost always goes unmentioned and unpunished, even post Clarence Thomas.

Thankfully, he was...badly (ie DESPRATELY!) needed in the company due to his skillset, multilingualism, and experience, so he didn't get fired. It was an iffy few days.

I'm glad that he got the time off though, because Brooklyn and Mister are very close.