What is feminism?

[Netzach]

And I think she looks attentive/focused/thinking, not "bitchy"

This is a woman whose anger scares the fuck out of me. In all kinds of nice ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knudkmkknq0&feature=related

I became aware of her because "vena cava" was the subject of middle of the night NPR airplay. If you search that out, how's that for middle of the night airplay? (it ranges from a sublime soprano amazing grace to the genuinely creepy shrieks and gasps and everything between)

She's what comes to mind when I think of the aesthetics of female rage.

 

[rinka]

well there is never ever just 'one' thing is there? in societies, especially diverse and complex ones, it's a whole interplay of which gender is but one part, and there are differences in extremity of gender discrimination dependent on the the culture, class and generation.



heh, I was arguing with someone on the GB and they were saying how Sweden had gone too far and the feminist pressure there had resulted in some bad policy decisions. I would have loved to have seen your input into it

Still there are experiences I'd say a majority of women all over the world have in common. And more importantly the gender power order is the same all over the world. Man over woman. Sure there are degrees and different laws and cultures, but it's still there.

That's why I'm a feminist.

I never go to the GB. But this peaks my curiosity a little.

And too far? Men still makes more money, hold more board room seats, more more leading positions in business, politics, culture, education...
Women still do a lot more unpaid work and "double work" with home, kids and family.
Women are still beaten, raped and killed by men.

And so on. In Sweden. So I'm not quite satisfied yet.

 

[intothewoods]

Is it sick if I say this is my dream life right here?



You described it perfectly! A person -can- be mad without being a mean ole bitch.

Dream life meaning the picture or the actual character? You can't watch that show and want to be Betty Draper.

My absolute fav is Joan: http://www.chicandcharming.com/2008/07/mad-mens-joan.html

I think the actress is really outstanding, and it's a great character.

And I think she looks attentive/focused/thinking, not "bitchy"

This is a woman whose anger scares the fuck out of me. In all kinds of nice ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knudkmkknq0&feature=related

I became aware of her because "vena cava" was the subject of middle of the night NPR airplay. If you search that out, how's that for middle of the night airplay? (it ranges from a sublime soprano amazing grace to the genuinely creepy shrieks and gasps and everything between)

She's what comes to mind when I think of the aesthetics of female rage.

I'll have to watch that later.

Betty is more repressed ice queen than bitchy, although she has her moments. Still, I can be sympathetic to someone whose therapist discussed her sessions in great detail with her husband (as a matter of course, no big deal!), has to get her husband's permission for divorce or be able to prove infidelity, and was drugged within an inch of her life to give birth (I'm not all Ms Home Birth, but that shit looked scary!).

Can you all tell I'm a wee bit excited that Season 4 is starting up in a couple of weeks!

 

[JMohegan]

To be fair, she's not really known for her parenting skills. The Drapers are the main characters in Mad Men. I know you don't like TV, but you should really check this series out. It's fantastic. And yes, that was definitely the style.

Thanks for the description. I don't really have a personal feel for this time period, since my parents mostly like to talk about the late 60s, early 70s.

People tend to think of the 60s as this wild counterculture, peace love tie dye and flower children time. But it was really very conservative, in the general societal sense - especially in the early & middle parts of the decade.

Is Mad Men a TV show, purporting to show family life in the 60s? If so (and assuming it's not on HBO or some other channel I don't pay for), then I'll check it out.

 

[satindesire]

Dream life meaning the picture or the actual character? You can't watch that show and want to be Betty Draper.

No no no! The picture. The -idea- of the perfectly coiffed 50's housewife in her ribbons, pearls and roast in the oven before hubby gets home from work. Le sigh.

 

[intothewoods]

People tend to think of the 60s as this wild counterculture, peace love tie dye and flower children time. But it was really very conservative, in the general societal sense - especially in the early & middle parts of the decade.

Is Mad Men a TV show, purporting to show family life in the 60s? If so (and assuming it's not on HBO or some other channel I don't pay for), then I'll check it out.

It's actually primarily about Don Draper, an ad man, and the advertising agency at which he works. It's awwwwweeeesome! Don is married to Betty. Their family life is an important part of the show as well. This show starts in 62, I think? 61 or 62. Last season ended around the time of JFK's assasination. The heart of the show is really all of the cultural changes going on -- race, gender, class, sexuality. The little things are also good for a chuckle - pregnant ladies smoking and drinking.

It's on AMC -- I don't think that's a premium channel. You really must start at the beginning though. You can get the series on DVD through Netflix.

ETA - I'm sorry for totally hijacking this thread!

 

[JMohegan]

My absolute fav is Joan: http://www.chicandcharming.com/2008/07/mad-mens-joan.html

That woman is obviously a seductress, and clearly not anybody's mom.

Well, maybe she is a mother, but damn.

 

[JMohegan]

Women are still beaten, raped and killed by men.

And so on. In Sweden. So I'm not quite satisfied yet.

Rinka, have you read the Stieg Larsson trilogy? If so, I'm interested to know your opinion of the books.

 

[infinity706]

No no no! The picture. The -idea- of the perfectly coiffed 50's housewife in her ribbons, pearls and roast in the oven before hubby gets home from work. Le sigh.

Yeah, whatever you like. Of course, if it were all my choice, there would be no unnecessary beauty products (soap, deodorant, and toothpaste should be enough) and everyone would walk around naked except when there's a practical need to wear something.

Oh, and as for Etoile's claims about institutionalized discrimination, I still think that's bullshit and I have quite a bit of sociology training. What there is are values and peer pressure. Saying that it has nothing to do with individuals is far too simplistic. That's going so far as to justify acting like a pussy because you don't want to go against the grain. People do have choices, whether they take the time to think about them or not. I don't think for half a second that anyone doesn't realize they aren't taking advantage of people unfairly. They just do it because they're pretty sure they'll get away with it.

 

[Keroin]

You're right Keroin.

/end thread

But you don’t generalize that much.
Maybe you are too polite. Or just polite enough?

I am Canadian. There's no such thing as "too polite".

Generalizing is never a good idea. But with feminism it happens regularly.
And one of the questions was ‘Has it gone too far?’

I also think the fight against racism has gone too far. For pretty much the same reasons.

The problems are there and remain to be solved. But not only the wrongdoers have to adjust their attitude. The fighters also should. Because they start to resemble their adversaries more every day…

Please tell me that at least you understand the thoughts…

Yes I do understand your thoughts. I do, however, want to know where you're hanging out to be interacting with nothing but angry, aggressive feminists??

I am a feminist's wet dream. Almost every choice in my life has gone against what women, traditionally, are "supposed" to do. I am the anti-June Cleaver. And I have dealt with sexism and discrimination, big time, along the way. But you can ask any man on this board and I'm sure they will all agree (unless they are feeling cheeky) that I have never cast a general net of blame over "all men" nor have I ever spouted off angry, anti-male sentiments.

I still consider myself a feminist though and, until the scales are indeed balanced, both in word and deed and attitude, for women everywhere, I always will be.

So...ta da! You've met a nice, friendly, reasonable feminist. Congratulations! LOL.

Actually, you've now met several. This board is crawling with them.

My absolute fav is Joan: http://www.chicandcharming.com/2008/07/mad-mens-joan.html

I think the actress is really outstanding, and it's a great character

I don't watch Mad Men but I am familiar with this actress and, yes, she is very talented. I also love that she has a natural body, complete with curves.

And don't worry about the hijacking. You should know by now that I don't really care where my threads go...as long as we don't start talking about "questing" or "beloveds" or that nonsense.

 

[Etoile]

You may find it okay to fight for the issue without regard of the tone. I do not. At least if the person in question doesn’t want to get judged by exactly this.

One fights for an issue in the most effective way possible. Sometimes that requires some shouting. It's not any feminist's responsibility to keep things nice and fluffy, it's their responsibility to be heard.

My mother's recipe book was Betty Crocker, and red.

My mom had that one!

People tend to think of the 60s as this wild counterculture, peace love tie dye and flower children time. But it was really very conservative, in the general societal sense - especially in the early & middle parts of the decade.

Yup, the fact that the Beatles were said to have long hair is evidence of this. They were goddamned longhaired freaks and it was barely past their ears.

Oh, and as for Etoile's claims about institutionalized discrimination, I still think that's bullshit and I have quite a bit of sociology training. What there is are values and peer pressure. Saying that it has nothing to do with individuals is far too simplistic. That's going so far as to justify acting like a pussy because you don't want to go against the grain. People do have choices, whether they take the time to think about them or not. I don't think for half a second that anyone doesn't realize they aren't taking advantage of people unfairly. They just do it because they're pretty sure they'll get away with it.

Institutionalized discrimination/oppression is bullshit? Are you seriously taking that position? I am done with the sociology discussion, because it appears to only lead down a path of complete lunacy. My god, I hate Marx, but the man wasn't stupid. I am a very strong structural-functionalist and there is no way you will convince me that people operate totally autonomously of one another.

 

[infinity706]

One fights for an issue in the most effective way possible. Sometimes that requires some shouting. It's not any feminist's responsibility to keep things nice and fluffy, it's their responsibility to be heard.


My mom had that one!


Yup, the fact that the Beatles were said to have long hair is evidence of this. They were goddamned longhaired freaks and it was barely past their ears.


Institutionalized discrimination/oppression is bullshit? Are you seriously taking that position? I am done with the sociology discussion, because it appears to only lead down a path of complete lunacy. My god, I hate Marx, but the man wasn't stupid. I am a very strong structural-functionalist and there is no way you will convince me that people operate totally autonomously of one another.

I don't think people operate autonomously, either. I just think you're simplifying things too much. You can't totally ignore the individual or personal responsibility. While there are things like culture and insitution, they're still influenced by people who make choices. Sure, some of those choices might have been made without all the information, but that's different than not having a choice at all. If institutions and culture existed independently from individuals, they're remain static over time.

Oh, and my mom has one of those red, Betty Crocker cookbooks, too.

 

[Kojote]

I am Canadian. There's no such thing as "too polite".

Wouldn't have belived in that before actually meeting... you.

Yes I do understand your thoughts. I do, however, want to know where you're hanging out to be interacting with nothing but angry, aggressive feminists??

I am a feminist's wet dream. Almost every choice in my life has gone against what women, traditionally, are "supposed" to do. I am the anti-June Cleaver. And I have dealt with sexism and discrimination, big time, along the way. But you can ask any man on this board and I'm sure they will all agree (unless they are feeling cheeky) that I have never cast a general net of blame over "all men" nor have I ever spouted off angry, anti-male sentiments.

I still consider myself a feminist though and, until the scales are indeed balanced, both in word and deed and attitude, for women everywhere, I always will be.

So...ta da! You've met a nice, friendly, reasonable feminist. Congratulations! LOL.

Actually, you've now met several. This board is crawling with them.

Yeah. It really feels like experiencing something new.
But I wonder how it would work out in eye-toeye conversation.
At least this time the style of forum discussions appears to be an advantage.
(Never viewed it this way. German forum discussions tend to go... other ways...)

So again: Thank you!

One fights for an issue in the most effective way possible. Sometimes that requires some shouting. It's not any feminist's responsibility to keep things nice and fluffy, it's their responsibility to be heard.

Understand that. Really.
And without wanting to heat it up again I keep asking if sometimes the most effective way to fight something might be out of proportion.
Another (again extreme and not really fitting yet) example:
Palestinians fight for their issue with bombs.
Not the best way I think…

That doesn’t mean I want to compare feminists with terrorists!
It’ sonly aimed at your conclusion.
Sometimes the ‘arms race’ doesn’t stop before violence…

Institutionalized discrimination/oppression is bullshit? Are you seriously taking that position? I am done with the sociology discussion, because it appears to only lead down a path of complete lunacy. My god, I hate Marx, but the man wasn't stupid. I am a very strong structural-functionalist and there is no way you will convince me that people operate totally autonomously of one another.

I agree with infinity on this.
The last decision about any course of action is made in the head of an individual. Be it not to act against the ‘system’ or to act on the right moral code.
Therefore the ‘institutionalized discrimination/oppression’ is a question of individual decisions.

 

[where]

Still there are experiences I'd say a majority of women all over the world have in common. And more importantly the gender power order is the same all over the world. Man over woman. Sure there are degrees and different laws and cultures, but it's still there.

That's why I'm a feminist.

I never go to the GB. But this peaks my curiosity a little.

And too far? Men still makes more money, hold more board room seats, more more leading positions in business, politics, culture, education...
Women still do a lot more unpaid work and "double work" with home, kids and family.
Women are still beaten, raped and killed by men.

And so on. In Sweden. So I'm not quite satisfied yet.

the GB is full of polarised monsters. it's not for polite debate, but contrary to popular belief on other forums it's not completely over-run by trolls and right wing psychopaths.

the discussion was similar to this one in terms of feminism going 'too far' and it was suggested that this was the case in sweden because of the anti-prostitution laws. I know a few Swedish academics and also know some personally and I'd never heard a claim like this before so I had a bit of a google and I really failed to see what the point the other poster was trying to make.

 

[miaction69]

i think feminism is a dumb word
i got told earlier this week that I behaved like a little girl who could do nothing herself
and the person that said it stated that he knew I could do things by myself...
and I thought about this...and it's all dumb - coz I can do things by myself....
I just renovated my house all myself - refurbished - heavy stuff etc - did it all myself
didn't ask for help...and it was fkg hard hard hard work that really was too much for me...but I did it
COZ I HAD NO OPTION
HOWEVER what men don't understand is that females still wanna be females - we still want and very much need men in so so so many ways.
Do guys really think we want to spend all our time shopping alone or with girlfriends, working to earn bucks, voting and shit like that, being independant - actually we don't
most of us want to support our men and be women..it's just that sometimes our circumstances
make us behave like men.

 

[Etoile]

I am totally bumping this thread in 5 or 6 years after I've finished my Master's in Sociology.

 

[Kojote]

I am totally bumping this thread in 5 or 6 years after I've finished my Master's in Sociology.

Oh c'mon Etoile...
It's not a matter of science. I even think it's some kind of belief.
Can't we discuss it? For I do find your thought interesting!

I just don't agree with it.
(And maybe am a little afraid of it, too)

 

[Etoile]

Oh c'mon Etoile...
It's not a matter of science. I even think it's some kind of belief.
Can't we discuss it? For I do find your thought interesting!

I just don't agree with it.
(And maybe am a little afraid of it, too)

What I meant by "after I've finished my Master's degree in Sociology" is that although I firmly believe what I have said, I don't have the knowledge to explain it right now. I have taken several sociology courses - and yes, sociology is a science - but I only have a light framework on which to base my statements. Although I have enough background for ME to know that I am right, I don't have enough background to convince YOU about it. Does that make sense?

I can provide you with a quote that explains what I believe:

In the structural functional model, individuals carry out each of these tasks in various institutions and roles that are consistent with the structures and norms of the society. -source

Notice the individuals carry out...these tasks part. Do I believe we have autonomy? Yes. Do I also believe we are fulfilling roles in a greater institution? Yes. We have free will, but what we do with it is mostly dictated by what society expects of us. (I should mention that my view of "society" is primarily an American viewpoint (and loosely a Western viewpoint). That is, I can only speak about things I know, and I am also a cultural relativist who acknowledges that other cultures operate differently to mine.

Or as Pink Floyd said... All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

 

[where]

What I meant by "after I've finished my Master's degree in Sociology" is that although I firmly believe what I have said, I don't have the knowledge to explain it right now. I have taken several sociology courses - and yes, sociology is a science - but I only have a light framework on which to base my statements. Although I have enough background for ME to know that I am right, I don't have enough background to convince YOU about it. Does that make sense?

I can provide you with a quote that explains what I believe:


Notice the individuals carry out...these tasks part. Do I believe we have autonomy? Yes. Do I also believe we are fulfilling roles in a greater institution? Yes. We have free will, but what we do with it is mostly dictated by what society expects of us. (I should mention that my view of "society" is primarily an American viewpoint (and loosely a Western viewpoint). That is, I can only speak about things I know, and I am also a cultural relativist who acknowledges that other cultures operate differently to mine.

Or as Pink Floyd said... All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

Functionalism is only only one model though, and it makes the assumption that individuals don;t have agency and that conflict doesn't exist. as a meta theory it's too static to be useful, I think.

 

[infinity706]

I have to wonder why people need to make such a big deal about men vs women, though. Given equal training and encouragement, you can make random groups of males and females perform pretty much the same on any mental exercise. Of course, if you just take random groups without training them, there are huge gaps between males and females, so there's obviously a huge amount of social bias. Other than professional sports, there isn't really enough of a physical difference to matter, either. Really, if society treated men and women equally in every regard, you could, from a practical standpoint, reduce the sex difference down to pregancy. When you get right down to it, though, a lot of the social construct of gender is based around pregnancy.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh c'mon Etoile...
It's not a matter of science. I even think it's some kind of belief.
Can't we discuss it? For I do find your thought interesting!

I just don't agree with it.
(And maybe am a little afraid of it, too)

You do seem to be a delicate little flower, Kojote! All through this thread you have talked and complained and worried about women not being nice to you. Because women who are intent upon their own agenda don't feel the need to make you happy-- This somehow discredits feminism for you. You've said that you don't judge all women only the strident ones, but you say you've never met a woman who was not strident. This ought to tell you something-- if you can get over your little reaction of hurt and avoidance.

And without wanting to heat it up again I keep asking if sometimes the most effective way to fight something might be out of proportion.

Yes. Many times, it is.

John Adam's wife Abigail wrote him a letter while he was drafting the Constitution.

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/suffrage/abigail.htm

She said; "While you are promising freedom for all men, I pray you do not forget the ladies, but let us have our freedom as well."

Wasn't that a nice way to ask for a perfectly reasonable thing?

He wrote back and said "Aren't you saucy! I fear that if we let the ladies have their freedom it will be bad for the men. And besides, no gentleman would ever be mean to a lady."

As we all know he was mistaken, and many a gentleman has been very mean indeed to a lady who was in his (constitutionally guaranteed) control.

And as we all learned, being nice does not make a damn bit of difference, when the other party has the power to ignore one's niceness.

Indeed, Abigail replied; "But you must remember that arbitrary power is like most other things which are very hard, very liable to be broken; and, notwithstanding all your wise laws and maxims, we have it in our power, not only to free ourselves, but to subdue our masters, and without violence, throw both your natural and legal authority at our feet."

So you can blame John Adams for those strident women you encounter.

 

[Netzach]

i think feminism is a dumb word
i got told earlier this week that I behaved like a little girl who could do nothing herself
and the person that said it stated that he knew I could do things by myself...
and I thought about this...and it's all dumb - coz I can do things by myself....
I just renovated my house all myself - refurbished - heavy stuff etc - did it all myself
didn't ask for help...and it was fkg hard hard hard work that really was too much for me...but I did it
COZ I HAD NO OPTION
HOWEVER what men don't understand is that females still wanna be females - we still want and very much need men in so so so many ways.
Do guys really think we want to spend all our time shopping alone or with girlfriends, working to earn bucks, voting and shit like that, being independant - actually we don't
most of us want to support our men and be women..it's just that sometimes our circumstances
make us behave like men.

Um that's what YOU want. Believe it or not a lot of women have completely different goals.

Speak for yourself.

It sounds like you feel pretty accomplished about the renovation. Maybe that's more your style than "shopping voting and shit like that." I'd find the latter pretty boring too, but I now like my work and I shop online mostly because shopping mostly pisses me off.

I also like being the primary earner as of - yesterday. Hooray for us.

 

[JMohegan]

What I meant by "after I've finished my Master's degree in Sociology" is that although I firmly believe what I have said, I don't have the knowledge to explain it right now. I have taken several sociology courses - and yes, sociology is a science - but I only have a light framework on which to base my statements. Although I have enough background for ME to know that I am right, I don't have enough background to convince YOU about it. Does that make sense?

I can provide you with a quote that explains what I believe:


Notice the individuals carry out...these tasks part. Do I believe we have autonomy? Yes. Do I also believe we are fulfilling roles in a greater institution? Yes. We have free will, but what we do with it is mostly dictated by what society expects of us. (I should mention that my view of "society" is primarily an American viewpoint (and loosely a Western viewpoint). That is, I can only speak about things I know, and I am also a cultural relativist who acknowledges that other cultures operate differently to mine.

Or as Pink Floyd said... All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

It's a social science, like history, econ, polisci.

Etoile, the part in bold makes sense to me - as long as: "mostly dictated by by what society expects of us" is being used as a shorthand way to reference "mostly influenced by the collective impact of existing laws and means/extent of their enforcement, as well as the customs, practices, and expectations of our family members, neighbors, work colleagues, elected officials, and jurists."

Just as, in economics, the "Invisible Hand" is used as a shorthand way to reference the collective impact of the behavior of individual consumers, producers, and investors, all competing against one another and all acting in his/her own self-interest.

But nobody believes there's an actual, literal, hand. It's a metaphor, used to illustrate a point in buttressing certain economic theories.

Even though I understand the shorthand metaphorical reference, I find emphasis on individual behavior to be much more helpful in motivating individuals to change their behavior. The problem I have with your statement, quoted below, is that it seems to absolve individuals for their personal responsibility in the collective. I find that not only morally wrong, but extremely counterproductive.

Society exists. The system exists. The systematic oppression of women is just that: systematic. Individuals have very little to do with it. This is basic philosophy here.

 

[JMohegan]

John Adam's wife Abigail wrote him a letter while he was drafting the Constitution.

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/suffrage/abigail.htm

She said; "While you are promising freedom for all men, I pray you do not forget the ladies, but let us have our freedom as well."

Wasn't that a nice way to ask for a perfectly reasonable thing?

He wrote back and said "Aren't you saucy! I fear that if we let the ladies have their freedom it will be bad for the men. And besides, no gentleman would ever be mean to a lady."

As we all know he was mistaken, and many a gentleman has been very mean indeed to a lady who was in his (constitutionally guaranteed) control.

And as we all learned, being nice does not make a damn bit of difference, when the other party has the power to ignore one's niceness.

Indeed, Abigail replied; "But you must remember that arbitrary power is like most other things which are very hard, very liable to be broken; and, notwithstanding all your wise laws and maxims, we have it in our power, not only to free ourselves, but to subdue our masters, and without violence, throw both your natural and legal authority at our feet."

So you can blame John Adams for those strident women you encounter.

"Saucy." Oh my god. I've read the famous "Remember the Ladies" letter, but never the response.

Have you seen the HBO John Adams series? It's out on DVD, and I recommend it highly. Laura Linney is extraordinary as Abigail.

 

[intothewoods]

Thanks for posting that, Stella. Well done.