What is feminism?

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks for posting that, Stella. Well done.

Nice girls go nowhere, baby.

 

[JMohegan]

"And, by the way, in the new code of laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make, I desire you would remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands. Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation."

The reason that Abigail's letter went nowhere was not because it was nicely, though firmly, expressed. The problem was that her politely articulated threat had no credibility to it, a fact that her husband knew all too clearly.



Another politely but firmly expressed urging is quoted below. But this time, it's a threat with credibility. Credibility in numbers, credibility in exposure, and most of all credibility hard won, through the great sacrifice of many. But a material part of that credibility was the gracious inclusion referenced at the end.


"It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. And those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. And there will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone."

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm


It was a nice thing for Dr. King to say, that bit about the white brothers. Nice, and very wise. The type of wisdom that ultimately gets you what you want.

 

[Netzach]

"And, by the way, in the new code of laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make, I desire you would remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands. Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation."

The reason that Abigail's letter went nowhere was not because it was nicely, though firmly, expressed. The problem was that her politely articulated threat had no credibility to it, a fact that her husband knew all too clearly.



Another politely but firmly expressed urging is quoted below. But this time, it's a threat with credibility. Credibility in numbers, credibility in exposure, and most of all credibility hard won, through the great sacrifice of many. But a material part of that credibility was the gracious inclusion referenced at the end.


"It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. And those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. And there will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone."

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm


It was a nice thing for Dr. King to say, that bit about the white brothers. Nice, and very wise. The type of wisdom that ultimately gets you what you want.

I hate to be a pill, I really do.

But a large part of the changes that came down were due to the fact that white senators, reps, and voters were scared as fuck by the rioting of the sixties. MLK talking about white bretheren gave them an "out" in a way, which allowed them to appear less fear motivated than I think they actually were in large part.

Harry Hay and non-confrontation and faeriehood is pure inspiration to me, but going that way alone and M would still be arrestable for the wrong shoes, sorry. It took some confrontation on their own terms with the heterosexual world.

There has never been significant social change without some serious numbers and seriously pissed off people willing to blow things up or burn them down or throw some rocks, when pushed into a corner. Every time the GLBT world gets a pole up its ass about "flamboyant" elements they should remember that it was those people who bothered to push back against the police. They should kiss a drag queen's ruffly butt.

Visionaries and men of peace are much more inspiring to spend time reading about, and one needs them as well as rock throwers. But the condemnation of militancy is really crapping on a serious history of contribution to movements.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yep. You can talk softly if your stick is big enough-- and held right in front of your opponent's face.

 

[JMohegan]

I hate to be a pill, I really do.

But a large part of the changes that came down were due to the fact that white senators, reps, and voters were scared as fuck by the rioting of the sixties. MLK talking about white bretheren gave them an "out" in a way, which allowed them to appear less fear motivated than I think they actually were in large part.

Harry Hay and non-confrontation and faeriehood is pure inspiration to me, but going that way alone and M would still be arrestable for the wrong shoes, sorry. It took some confrontation on their own terms with the heterosexual world.

There has never been significant social change without some serious numbers and seriously pissed off people willing to blow things up or burn them down or throw some rocks, when pushed into a corner. Every time the GLBT world gets a pole up its ass about "flamboyant" elements they should remember that it was those people who bothered to push back against the police. They should kiss a drag queen's ruffly butt.

Visionaries and men of peace are much more inspiring to spend time reading about, and one needs them as well as rock throwers. But the condemnation of militancy is really crapping on a serious history of contribution to movements.

Why the reference to being a pill? You're not contradicting a single thing I've said, or would say. You're just expanding on my point. Abigail Adam's threat to foment a rebellion had no credibility, and that's why her husband laughed when he read it. NOT because the threat was politely expressed.

King was giving white legislators an out, but check the placement of the wording. That "out" followed an explicit reference to the "sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent" - and he wasn't talking about the weather. The stick, and then the carrot.

There's a scene in the HBO Adams series, in which Abigail and her daughter are clearing a field for planting. They're talking about men running the world and how women are left out of the process. The daughter asks Abigail why men do that. To which Abigail replies: "Because we let them."

 

[rinka]

Rinka, have you read the Stieg Larsson trilogy? If so, I'm interested to know your opinion of the books.

I've read parts of it, but not all yet. I really enjoyed them though it's not a genre I usually read. He definitely explores and adresses the concepts of power and powerlessness. Love the whole Pippi Longstocking references and a lot other clever motifs in the books too.

And you?

 

[rinka]

Oh, and as for Etoile's claims about institutionalized discrimination, I still think that's bullshit and I have quite a bit of sociology training. What there is are values and peer pressure. Saying that it has nothing to do with individuals is far too simplistic. That's going so far as to justify acting like a pussy because you don't want to go against the grain. People do have choices, whether they take the time to think about them or not. I don't think for half a second that anyone doesn't realize they aren't taking advantage of people unfairly. They just do it because they're pretty sure they'll get away with it.

As an indiviual you are still part of a context and you cannot see, understand and control that whole context. Priviliges are given to you by society and other people based on who you are (man, white etc). Sure you may be aware of some of these advantages and allow them anyway, others you are blissfully unknowing about.

The whole is more than the sum of the parts (don't know how to translate that correctly and too lazy to look it up). Any group you're a part of gets it's own life, culture or whatever you call it. Some of this we see easily, some we're blind to. Some we can change easily or choose to not be a part of, other we are pretty powerless against.

What feministic theory (what some of you called Femisism?) is to me, is a tool, a pair of glasses to see these structures specifically related to gender. By seeing this more clearly we can try to change the underlying structures.

What I meant by "after I've finished my Master's degree in Sociology" is that although I firmly believe what I have said, I don't have the knowledge to explain it right now. I have taken several sociology courses - and yes, sociology is a science - but I only have a light framework on which to base my statements. Although I have enough background for ME to know that I am right, I don't have enough background to convince YOU about it. Does that make sense?

I can provide you with a quote that explains what I believe:


Notice the individuals carry out...these tasks part. Do I believe we have autonomy? Yes. Do I also believe we are fulfilling roles in a greater institution? Yes. We have free will, but what we do with it is mostly dictated by what society expects of us. (I should mention that my view of "society" is primarily an American viewpoint (and loosely a Western viewpoint). That is, I can only speak about things I know, and I am also a cultural relativist who acknowledges that other cultures operate differently to mine.

Or as Pink Floyd said... All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

Don't give up, I'm with you!

 

[JMohegan]

I've read parts of it, but not all yet. I really enjoyed them though it's not a genre I usually read. He definitely explores and adresses the concepts of power and powerlessness. Love the whole Pippi Longstocking references and a lot other clever motifs in the books too.

And you?

About a month ago, I saw the Swedish movie based on the first book. The film inspired me to purchase the books, which I read one right after the other.

I'd say that Larsson is clever at developing plot lines, but that the books are unusually engrossing because of the character Lisbeth. She is alluring and repellent at the same time, which makes her totally engrossing and the books tough to put down.

I've never read any of the Pippi books, but a friend of mine said the same thing you did about the many Lindgren direct references and allusions. For my friend, they made the books worth reading, even though she found the violence and sadism in the books very disturbing.

I read somewhere that the first book is titled "Men Who Hate Women" in Sweden. Is that true? In the U.S., the book was published with the title "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo." I think the former makes sense, if the first were a stand-alone book, but the latter makes more sense as part of the trilogy.

Is there a significant neo-Nazi element in Sweden? I read that Larsson was an expert on the subject, prior to his death, but don't know to what extent that segment is present in non-fictional 21st century Swedish society.

 

[Etoile]

...the books, which I read one right after the other.

I'd say that Larsson is clever at developing plot lines, but that the books are unusually engrossing because of the character Lisbeth. She is alluring and repellent at the same time, which makes her totally engrossing and the books tough to put down.

Well damn. Now I want to go buy it. I love a good page-turner. *turns on Kindle wireless*

I read somewhere that the first book is titled "Men Who Hate Women" in Sweden. Is that true?

Yup. Swedish version available here from Amazon, and Google Translate confirms the translation.

 

[Keroin]

About a month ago, I saw the Swedish movie based on the first book. The film inspired me to purchase the books, which I read one right after the other.

I'd say that Larsson is clever at developing plot lines, but that the books are unusually engrossing because of the character Lisbeth. She is alluring and repellent at the same time, which makes her totally engrossing and the books tough to put down.

I've never read any of the Pippi books, but a friend of mine said the same thing you did about the many Lindgren direct references and allusions. For my friend, they made the books worth reading, even though she found the violence and sadism in the books very disturbing.

I read somewhere that the first book is titled "Men Who Hate Women" in Sweden. Is that true? In the U.S., the book was published with the title "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo." I think the former makes sense, if the first were a stand-alone book, but the latter makes more sense as part of the trilogy.

Is there a significant neo-Nazi element in Sweden? I read that Larsson was an expert on the subject, prior to his death, but don't know to what extent that segment is present in non-fictional 21st century Swedish society.

Well damn. Now I want to go buy it. I love a good page-turner. *turns on Kindle wireless*.

I watched the movie last night. Well done.

Lisbeth is simply the most interesting and engaging protagonist I have come across in ages. I'd discuss this further but don't want to spoil the story for anyone.

I've heard that Larrson created quite a stir by writing about the neo-nazis in Sweden, which is supposedly one of those dirty little secrets everyone knows about but no one wants to talk about.

 

[bridgeburner]

Well, crappity fuck there's a lot of posts to read through. By the time I get around to posting the thread will be long dead and everyone will have moved on.

Not having read the thread yet, I'll go waaaaay out on a limb and point to Netzach and say "Yeah, what she said!"

I'll be back when I've finished reading.

 

[JMohegan]

Well damn. Now I want to go buy it. I love a good page-turner. *turns on Kindle wireless*



Yup. Swedish version available here from Amazon, and Google Translate confirms the translation.

I read all my news online, but can't deal with a gadget in lieu of an old-fashioned book.

Kindle seems smart for long-term traveling, though.

I watched the movie last night. Well done.

Lisbeth is simply the most interesting and engaging protagonist I have come across in ages. I'd discuss this further but don't want to spoil the story for anyone.

I've heard that Larrson created quite a stir by writing about the neo-nazis in Sweden, which is supposedly one of those dirty little secrets everyone knows about but no one wants to talk about.

You need to read the books, you really do. Especially if you're intrigued by Lisbeth.

 

[YourCaptor]

I watched the movie last night. Well done.

Lisbeth is simply the most interesting and engaging protagonist I have come across in ages. I'd discuss this further but don't want to spoil the story for anyone.

I've heard that Larrson created quite a stir by writing about the neo-nazis in Sweden, which is supposedly one of those dirty little secrets everyone knows about but no one wants to talk about.

The rape scenes were pretty hot, and revenge great, though I would have laughed harder had she marked his forehead.

 

[Keroin]

You need to read the books, you really do. Especially if you're intrigued by Lisbeth.

I intend to. Once I get back from the latest jaunt I'll be hitting the library. (Just finished "The Road" and have another novel on the go, at the moment).

The rape scenes were pretty hot, and revenge great, though I would have laughed harder had she marked his forehead.

Hm, I didn't find the rape scenes hot. I did enjoy the revenge though - disturbing but deserved. The actress was perfect for that role, too.

Apparently there is an America version in the works, it will be interesting to see how Hollywood handles the material.

 

[Etoile]

Shhhh not too much details, I am still finishing up my last book!

 

[bridgeburner]

I had a hard time getting into the book and so I put it down and then was so busy that I didn't pick it up again. Now it's somewhere in my apartment.

I didn't see the film because I wanted to read the book first.

Yet another incentive to dig deep into the piles and get suff sorted and tossed and stored away.

 

[bridgeburner]

Thread read and not dead so:

Kojote,

I think we'll know that feminism has gone far enough when nobody feels like you do because nobody has to shout about gross disparity anymore.

I too get irritated with what I often perceive to be either whiners or hypocrites. There are feminists who are both vitriolic and ridiculous in their rhetoric, but they are not the majority. What I find disturbing is that so many young women use outdated language and incomplete ideas because they are not being educated in what feminism is anymore. The public dialogue has quieted as far as our youth are concerned.

That, to me, says there's a serious problem with the "movement". It means we've stalled and gotten complacent or --- my personal theory --- we got to the place where the issues were even harder to deal with and women as a whole weren't as dedicated to addressing them.

At any rate, while I have some empathy for your position, I cannot ultimately agree with you that feminists are too strident in general. I think for the most part, feminists aren't strident at all. They get up and go to work and raise their families and move through the world every day showing that they have a right to be there.

I'm not much of an activist, but when my students quiz me about why I don't have children or why I'm not married, I'm very up front with them. I don't have children because I'm too selfish of my own time and I'm not married because I haven't met anyone I'd be willing to make the kinds of compromises in my life needed to live with another person.

They look at me like I'm crazy, but I do get a lot of "hmmm.....I hadn't ever thought about it that way." In an urban school that's 85% socio-economically disadvantaged with a 70% female population roughly 75% non-white, I feel that's a pretty damn radical idea to have exposed them to.

 

[bridgeburner]

Here's why feminism is still a vital issue:


http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2010/1007/a_time_cover_0809.jpg


Afghan Women and the Return of the Taliban

 

[SmallRabbit]

What a wonderfully refreshing thread! I'm still working on reading it all, 400 posts yikes! But I'm sure I'll enjoy every bit.

 

[JMohegan]

Here's why feminism is still a vital issue:


http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2010/1007/a_time_cover_0809.jpg


Afghan Women and the Return of the Taliban

Fucking bastards.

Every time I read about this shit, my anti-war zeal twinges as slightly suspect. Goddamnit.

 

[Netzach]

Fucking bastards.

Every time I read about this shit, my anti-war zeal twinges as slightly suspect. Goddamnit.

That's what it's supposed to do. Honestly, it has jack all to do with our misguided efforts. Remember who MADE the Taliban happen in the first place.

 

[WriterDom]

That's what it's supposed to do. Honestly, it has jack all to do with our misguided efforts. Remember who MADE the Taliban happen in the first place.

The Taliban didn't emerge until about 5 years after the Soviets left. Largely thanks to the Pakistanis. You can blame America for the defeat of the Russians I guess. In retrospect maybe we should have turned the other cheek. Godless beats radical Islam any day. At least the Russians understand M.A.D.

 

[satindesire]

Fucking bastards.

Every time I read about this shit, my anti-war zeal twinges as slightly suspect. Goddamnit.

I don't know if you're a Christian or not JM, but I take some small comfort in knowing these bastards will burn for the gross inhumane treatment they inflict on innocent people. There's no way God will let them rot peacefully with 72 Virgins for that kind of EVIL.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't know if you're a Christian or not JM, but I take some small comfort in knowing these bastards will burn for the gross inhumane treatment they inflict on innocent people. There's no way God will let them rot peacefully with 72 Virgins for that kind of EVIL.

If an Omnipotent Being does exist, and He/She/It stood by and let this atrocity happen, then He/She/It is just as culpable as the husband for the woman's suffering. No more, and no less.

No, I'm not a Christian.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't know if you're a Christian or not JM, but I take some small comfort in knowing these bastards will burn for the gross inhumane treatment they inflict on innocent people. There's no way God will let them rot peacefully with 72 Virgins for that kind of EVIL.

We take our comfort where we can. Christian afterlife-type comfort is especially useful when we cannot make real changes in this life, as is certainly often the case.

But it is even more especially useful to those who don't want us trying to make those changes.

The Taliban did not become so incredibly powerful in Afghanistan until the US started interfering in the government-- which had become pretty secular. Women held professions. Our invasion destroyed that infrastructure and left a religion-shaped void that begged to be filled.